Next steps?

[Kidd]

And you must be a shining beacon of doing that?

 

Do we have to be so sarcastic about RepairMinded? If anyone asked me to describe him, the first thing I would mention is that he is open to the thoughts and opinions of others. He leads by example in that regard.

[RepairMinded]

And you must be a shining beacon of doing that?

 

I think so. But even if I personally am not (in your opinion or anyone else's)--the point is still valid.

 

If you disagree with the point, then say so.

[RepairMinded]

That's actually pretty damn funny coming from him isn't it?

 

If you disagree with the point, then say so.

[drifter777]

So, I request other opinions...Drifter, this includes you as it was your original subject.

 

I needed to think about this for a while. My intention is to help guide you based on my own experience with my wife's cheating. I did many things wrong but I must have done some things right as we have raised 3 kids, are still together, and closer to peace regarding this subject then ever before.

 

Many friends and family have told me "you think too much". You seem to be the kind of person that maybe hears the same thing, and I think that's why I am drawn to your situation.

 

Most of my life I was extremely good at compartmentalizing my true feelings and packing them away in the dark corners of my mind. When I began to struggle with depression/anxiety I realized how much ugly, hurtful baggage I was carrying around and it was making me emotionally and physically sick. I have been able to work through most of these things in counseling, but it's been a tough road. It would take pages to relay all the details so I'll cut to the bottom line. I must face emotions - good or bad - head on and deal with the reality of them. I now am able to catch myself when I rationalize or simply spend too much time in my head when what I am is afraid or sad or angry or joyful or... you get it.

 

This is why it took me so long to get to the point where I can see it may be possible for me to forgive my wife. But I wasted 20 years trying to save myself the pain of her infidelity by pretending everything was alright instead of facing the truth and hashing the whole thing out as the feelings came over me. There is no timetable, no amnesty for infidelity. Stop using time as a reference because it is an incredibly poor metric by which to measure emotions. You cannot control when the vile, bitter memories come crashing into your thoughts and you cannot stifle them forever. You must face them and the reality of the situation sooner or later. I recommend sooner.

 

That's enough for now. How are you feeling today?

[silktricks]

And I hate the unavoidable mistrust now.

Mistrust is avoidable this close to D-Day. Please do know, however, that mistrust isn't inevitable from here on out. I know that some people will tell you that you'll never be able to get past the pain, mistrust, etc. and though that may very well be true for them, it doesn't need to be true for everyone.

 

Also, you don't sound at all like a doormat. Being forgiving is not a bad thing, after all. I wouldn't have called Christ a doormat, though apparently some would.

 

You and your wife seem to be doing well. Keep up the good work and when those demons start calling - do those aerobics!!!

Edited July 26, 2011 by silktricks

[Kidd]

Silktricks, please keep posting. What I am doing is hard work. There's not much support for forgiveness. I think a lot of BSs like the illusion of control that they get from all their consequences and extraordinary precautions. And they can easily justify all of their revenge tactics to feed their broken egos. I've tried to make rational and hard decisions about how to play the cards I've been dealt and feel proud about what I am doing. If it doesn't pay off, I'll still have that. And I think I'm going to keep my kids and have a grateful wife to boot. I come here for some validation and to keep my head in the game.

 

Drifter, I really appreciate your thoughtful post. I see you as a kindred spirit. You pegged me as cerebral and analytical. I push emotions to the side and focus on the action required instead. I tell you though, this has pushed me to the limit. I've never had such emotions before. Keeping my head on straight got me this far but as soon as I felt secure that my M wasn't going to immediately dissolve, the pent up pissed off stuff came right out. It wasn't repressed very deep. I'm encouraged that you feel pretty good about where you are today. I hope you can let it go. Period. Let the crap go. Forgive and embrace life. For yourself and for her. I find I haven't been a passionate person in life. It's time. Take a risk. On her. On yourself. F*ck it.

 

Me today? What a roller coaster. Wife didn't receive a msg from me yesterday asking her to be more open. No response. Paranoia set in (I'm on a business trip) for about 24 hours until I sent her a follow-up. Wonderful messages from her since, telling me everything she's been doing (all verifiable and so much detail that I know was quietly for my benefit) and how she had great IC today and church/confession and felt more at peace than ever, and missed me, wanted me home. All this after I was a completely irrational a..hole last week. I'm probably better tonight than anytime since Dday. Like I said, rollercoaster but with more highs than before. Still a lot of work to do...I need to require more transparency again but I know she's going to say ok and we'll continue to look forward. Think I'll leave off the ignore feature tomorrow morning. Look forward to RM tearing this up sentence by sentence. Meanwhile, I'll have my wife and kids with greater hope than ever and he'll have his d*ck in his hand, hoping to get off on some misery. Bummer for him.

[RepairMinded]

I'm not the one who cheated on you kidd.

 

Your wife did.

 

That's where your overwhelming anger needs to be directed to.

 

The one that hurt you.

[RepairMinded]

Me today? What a roller coaster. Wife didn't receive a msg from me yesterday asking her to be more open.

 

I thought you stated in a prior post that you had completely forgiven her and will no longer hold her accountable. Asking her to be more open with you is a way of holding her accountable.

 

 

No response. Paranoia set in (I'm on a business trip) for about 24 hours until I sent her a follow-up.

 

It's hardly "paranoia" given your wife's track record. But it does conflict with your having said you've forgiven her and will no longer hold her accountable for what happened in the past.

 

 

Wonderful messages from her since, telling me everything she's been doing (all verifiable and so much detail that I know was quietly for my benefit) and how she had great IC today and church/confession and felt more at peace than ever, and missed me, wanted me home.

 

This is why I think it's going to take you years to truly reconcile and you need to accept that. This is evidently a Catholic woman ("confession" indicates Catholic doesn't it?) who considers herself "religious" and was brought up/trained with a whole set of traditional moral values.

 

Somehow over time and despite believing herself to hold such values she was able to cheat on and lie to you for an extended period of time. No doubt during the year she was cheating on you she probably even went to confession a number of times. But it didn't stop her from cheating.

 

 

Have you ever actually sat down with your wife and asked her to think about, and explain, how she was able to justify/reconcile cheating on you, with her claimed religious beliefs? Somehow--like a lot of supposedly "religious" people--she has gotten to a point where "going through the motions" and the rituals is sufficient, but then when no one is really looking she can do whatever she wants.

 

What is her philosophy of love? of ethics? of morality?

 

I sense the same in you. Similar upbringing? You seem to think that simply bestowing "forgiveness" (similar to your wife's going to confession in church) creates real change. Just like your wife most likely feels that going to confession "absolves" her of the sins she confesses to. "Forgiveness" isn't really some kind of dispensation that you can grant like a priest grants absolution at confession. It's an emotional or psychological state of being that has to be arrived at after a long journey.

 

 

 

 

All this after I was a completely irrational a..hole last week. I'm probably better tonight than anytime since Dday. Like I said, rollercoaster but with more highs than before. Still a lot of work to do...I need to require more transparency again but I know she's going to say ok and we'll continue to look forward.

 

Why? What is she still doing that's not transparent?

 

 

 

Think I'll leave off the ignore feature tomorrow morning. Look forward to RM tearing this up sentence by sentence. Meanwhile, I'll have my wife and kids with greater hope than ever and he'll have his d*ck in his hand, hoping to get off on some misery. Bummer for him.

 

Obviously it's not whose dick is in my hand that you need to worry about. But thanks anyway.

[RepairMinded]

Mistrust is avoidable this close to D-Day. Please do know, however, that mistrust isn't inevitable from here on out.

 

Kidd states that she is still not being transparent enough, he asks to ask her "again" for more transparency. Under the circumstances mistrust is a logical reaction.

 

Mistrust is inevitable in the sense that you can't trust someone who has proven that they can't be trusted, and who is still not sufficiently transparent. It's not "paranoia" to be mistrustful of someone who cheated on you for a year and is still not fully transparent.

 

 

I know that some people will tell you that you'll never be able to get past the pain, mistrust, etc. and though that may very well be true for them, it doesn't need to be true for everyone.

The truth is that no one ever fully recovers from being cheated on for a year even if they stay married and their cheating spouse appears remorseful. It is a life-altering event which many people have compared to the death of a child. Accepting that one's life has been permanently altered in various ways by the life-altering act of spousal infidelity is critical to any form of reconciliation or recovery, because self-deception never works in the long run.

 

Anyone who has been cheated on has been deprived, forever, of their innocence and belief that pouring all their love into a relationship is a guarantee of emotional safety. That even the person closest to you can knife you in the back. Pretending otherwise doesn't help reconciliation or the BS's personal recovery.

 

 

 

 

Also, you don't sound at all like a doormat. Being forgiving is not a bad thing, after all. I wouldn't have called Christ a doormat, though apparently some would.

No Christ was a martyr but most of us don't want to be martyrs to a cheating spouse.

 

 

 

 

You and your wife seem to be doing well. Keep up the good work and when those demons start calling - do those aerobics!!!

Demons aren't at fault, human beings are. Two of them--the cheating spouse and her affair partner.

 

(I admit that what cheaters do is "demonic" though.)

Edited July 26, 2011 by RepairMinded

[RepairMinded]

I needed to think about this for a while. My intention is to help guide you based on my own experience with my wife's cheating. I did many things wrong but I must have done some things right as we have raised 3 kids, are still together, and closer to peace regarding this subject then ever before.

 

I think pretty much 80-90% of the people at Love Shack disagree with the notion of staying together "for the kids" but if staying with your wife for all this time after she cheated resulted in a better upbringing for your kids (emotionally/financially/other ways) than had you divorced, then I believe it was "worth it" in spite of all the personal suffering you have gone through. You made a sacrifice for your kids which should be applauded and you shouldn't second guess that part of it at all.

 

 

Many friends and family have told me "you think too much".

 

I would keep my hand on my wallet when around these folks.

 

 

 

You seem to be the kind of person that maybe hears the same thing, and I think that's why I am drawn to your situation.

 

He sounds a lot like you might have been twenty years ago.

 

 

 

 

 

Most of my life I was extremely good at compartmentalizing my true feelings and packing them away in the dark corners of my mind. When I began to struggle with depression/anxiety I realized how much ugly, hurtful baggage I was carrying around and it was making me emotionally and physically sick. I have been able to work through most of these things in counseling, but it's been a tough road. It would take pages to relay all the details so I'll cut to the bottom line. I must face emotions - good or bad - head on and deal with the reality of them. I now am able to catch myself when I rationalize or simply spend too much time in my head when what I am is afraid or sad or angry or joyful or... you get it.

 

Actually no I don't get it.

 

 

 

This is why it took me so long to get to the point where I can see it may be possible for me to forgive my wife.

 

You still need to get to the point where you can see that you don't have to forgive your wife. Nor do you even need to forgive her. You don't "owe" her that and you don't "owe" yourself that.

 

If you have to forgive her (according to whose standards, by the way?), then any supposed act of "forgiving" is not a product of your free will, and therefore, is....worthless.

 

If it turns out to be "im"possible for you to ever forgive her, then that's simply a product of what she did all those years ago...not the product of any supposed emotional deficiency on your part that others (such as therapists, friends, and relatives who claim you "think too much") have attributed to you, and presumably renders you "emotionally stunted/unable to forgive."

 

This expectation imposed on BSs that WSs are ever owed forgiveness, under any circumstances, is completely absurd. All the "forgiveness" a WS is entitled to is the BS being willing to not immediately divorce the WS. (And obviously a WS is NEVER entitled to that, either. The BS is free to divorce on "Day 1".) Anything more than that is a pure gift and if the BS doesn't have it in them to give anything more than that...it's simply a consequence of the WS's own cheating.

 

You. Don't. Owe. Her. ANYTHING.

 

You agreed to hang in there for twenty years even if only for the kids' sake. What MORE do you think you "owe"??? You have suffered for twenty years, and yet some people have made you think you "owe" her more??? No you don't. Nothing. Not a thing.

 

 

 

But I wasted 20 years trying to save myself the pain of her infidelity by pretending everything was alright instead of facing the truth and hashing the whole thing out as the feelings came over me.

 

That's right. You've been paying for her infidelity one way or the other for twenty years. So no you don't owe her a blessed drop more.

 

 

 

There is no timetable, no amnesty for infidelity. Stop using time as a reference because it is an incredibly poor metric by which to measure emotions. You cannot control when the vile, bitter memories come crashing into your thoughts and you cannot stifle them forever. You must face them and the reality of the situation sooner or later. I recommend sooner.

 

It's just the same as if she took an axe and chopped your leg off twenty years ago.

 

No matter what mental tricks you wanted to play or rationalizations for her actions or even for staying with her, every time you looked down your leg would still be gone.

 

 

 

 

That's enough for now. How are you feeling today?

 

Angry with a chance of meatballs.

[road]

33 pages, too many to read if you exposed the OMW.

 

Did you?

[Kidd]

Took a while to get there but, yes.

[reboot]

That's where your overwhelming anger needs to be directed to.

 

And please, what pray tell, is the point of directing this overwhelming anger towards anyone, ever? If one cannot live with a situation, one needs to remove oneself from that situation. Anger and revenge serve no good purpose, ever. They merely hurt you, and rarely the person they're directed towards.

 

If a BS really wants to reconcile, revenge should be the last thing on their mind. Anger is unavoidable, but it has to be controlled for there to be any real hope for reconciliation.

[David Cain]

And please, what pray tell, is the point of directing this overwhelming anger towards anyone, ever? If one cannot live with a situation, one needs to remove oneself from that situation. Anger and revenge serve no good purpose, ever. They merely hurt you, and rarely the person they're directed towards.

 

If a BS really wants to reconcile, revenge should be the last thing on their mind. Anger is unavoidable, but it has to be controlled for there to be any real hope for reconciliation.

 

So you're basically saying a BS should just get over it and that they have no right to be angry.

[reboot]

So you're basically saying a BS should just get over it and that they have no right to be angry.

 

Anger is unavoidable, but it has to be controlled for there to be any real hope for reconciliation.

 

Once again an attempt to twist my words.

 

Of course they have a right to be angry, but if that anger cannot be controlled and directed, there is no point in talking about reconciliation.

 

Some folks here apparently had little or no home training. Most of us learned not to bite the other kids when we were in kindergarten....

[Tech_E]

Kidd I applaud you for still posting despite some of the nonsense that has went on in this thread. I know I would have thrown in the towel on it a long time ago. I find it so amusing that you selectively read RM's diatribes... I admit I do the same thing, but I usually give up half way through his sentence by sentence nonsense.

 

A question, when you questioned your wife on her activites you seem to almost regret doing so. Also you refer to yourself as a completely irrational a__hole. Why? Given what your wife did don't you think it is normal to act this way for a while until your trust rebuilds? I know that my wife does everything in her power to remove any questions I have about her time or what she is doing. It helps, it really helps.

 

Keep at it Kidd, I admire your pragmatic attitude.

[Kidd]

Tech_E

 

I find that when I am away from my W for a period of time or if we don't actively discuss our issues, my mind starts filling in the blanks and it's never with the best case scenario but the worst. I have confidence in what I'm doing but then I will allow paranoia to drive a decision. Everything has gone right since Dday but the mistrust remains. It's not really my fault. I shouldn't self-deprecate. It's a natural consequence of her actions. But I get frustrated with myself because I know it's happening and allow myself to go there. It's like playing the mental movies in your head incessantly. At some point, you have to take ownership of stopping that even if you can blame the WS forever if you like. I'm holding myself to a higher standard. I was an ___hole when I completely flew off the handle when I know I can exercise better control and within knew that the paranoia was false. I had transitioned to punishing her. I suppose the anger had to come out. I'm glad I am past it now.

[sillysmart]

Hey Kidd, good for you for fighting for your marriage. You must be a pretty good guy based on your wifes reaction. NO wonder she is affectionate etc. she is turned on by you fighting for her! You mentioned she had some reasons for separation. She had not been happy for two years? What is that all about. You need to hear her out and go for the root cause why she was vulnerable to have this affair in the first place. It doesn't just happen in a vacuum. You are the man and you know your wife. Go back to what you did at first for her to agree to marry you in the first place. Why did she marry you?

 

Maybe she is ready to eplore different parts of herself and she did not feel you were open. Talk to her and really listen non-judgmentally. YOu may find yourself falling in love all over again. The infidelity will come back on and off like a tiger wanting to bite you in the ass. How could she do it? It was cold and heartless, how desperate she was for something? What was it find out and give it to her.

 

I am sure you know that marriage requires three prongs which are passion (attraction/sex), companionship (friendship, support), and commitment. Commitment is the bitch because people think love is a feeling.Yes feelings are part of love but that is just it. You obviously have commitment or you would not be trying to work your marriage out. The best way to get over the past is to bring in new positive things. Recommit and ask your wife to renew your vows and know then that things are new and bring old things from your first love in and new things to accomodate the new couple you are.

 

Yes she needs to be an open book. But you will find you will keep looking for evidence of betrayal and become obsssessed with it. You must cry and accept the pain and move past it or it will define you. Do you really want to be defined as the guy who's wife betrayed him. Is that all to your story. No you are the guy who married her had children and fought for your marriage! YOur the man. Take her back as yours. Make her grateful for you and thinking oh my God I trust him more than ever. My man is so courageous and why did I not trust to tell him how I was feeling and know he would respond. Anyway I hope this helps.

[Kidd]

Thanks sillysmart. Good post.

 

All that analysis is coming. Our MC has been dealing with me and my shock first. Good idea, I suppose. We've barely touched on her mental state and the pre-A conditions. To me it was mid-life crisis, complacency from me, a sexual awakening for her, two kids, two professional careers, and then someone came along who she could talk to. But there is more deep stuff we have to explore that let it go on so long. We're getting there. My recent anger closed her up a bit. I'm now recreating the safe environment for her to share everything as we had in the first place.

[silktricks]

I find that when I am away from my W for a period of time or if we don't actively discuss our issues, my mind starts filling in the blanks and it's never with the best case scenario but the worst. I have confidence in what I'm doing but then I will allow paranoia to drive a decision. Everything has gone right since Dday but the mistrust remains. It's not really my fault. I shouldn't self-deprecate. It's a natural consequence of her actions. But I get frustrated with myself because I know it's happening and allow myself to go there. It's like playing the mental movies in your head incessantly. At some point, you have to take ownership of stopping that even if you can blame the WS forever if you like. I'm holding myself to a higher standard. I was an ___hole when I completely flew off the handle when I know I can exercise better control and within knew that the paranoia was false. I had transitioned to punishing her. I suppose the anger had to come out. I'm glad I am past it now.

 

Good post, Kidd. I remember going through those worst case scenarios, and desperately needing reassurance. I don't know if this would work for you (or even if you need it anymore), it did for me, but it was terribly painful... Anyway, rather than trying to stop the head-spinning negative thoughts, instead I forced myself to go there. I was relentless towards myself, until finally my brain just stopped. I'd try to go there, and my brain would turn in a different direction. Then it was no longer a matter of control, I was just done.

 

Please do be careful of being too sure that you are "past it now". Ugly things have a way of resurrecting themselves at the least opportune moment. Don't dwell on the possibility that the anger will come back, but don't be surprised, and don't beat yourself up if it does even a few more times.

[Tech_E]

Don't dwell on the possibility that the anger will come back, but don't be surprised, and don't beat yourself up if it does even a few more times.

 

Great point. At almost 1 year past D-day I can say firsthand that anger does come back. However, when it does it passes much more quickly than it did before. Also due to our improved communication techniques we deal with it as a team.

[Kidd]

Yeah, "past it now" wasn't a wise way to say it. The anger will be back. What I'm past is the uncontrolled release of it in order to punish her. I've got to communicate sooner and I'm committed to avoiding angry outbursts and when possible, disrespectful judgments. It's not worth the setback in our communication which is what usually caused it in the first place. It's a cycle that I have a part in breaking.

[drifter777]

Actually no I don't get it.

 

Reference to feeling and responding honestly to strong emotions instead of rationalizing & compartmentalizing to "protect" myself. This is a defense mechanism that many people use but it provides only temporary relief.

 

You still need to get to the point where you can see that you don't have to forgive your wife. Nor do you even need to forgive her. You don't "owe" her that and you don't "owe" yourself that.

 

If you have to forgive her (according to whose standards, by the way?), then any supposed act of "forgiving" is not a product of your free will, and therefore, is....worthless.

 

If it turns out to be "im"possible for you to ever forgive her, then that's simply a product of what she did all those years ago...not the product of any supposed emotional deficiency on your part that others (such as therapists, friends, and relatives who claim you "think too much") have attributed to you, and presumably renders you "emotionally stunted/unable to forgive."

 

I agree with the point you are making here. As I have said in other posts, forgiveness to me means a sort of tacit approval of what she did, and that will never happen. Never. However, my counselor and many people on this forum disagree with my definition of "forgiveness". My counselor says we need to forgive others because it makes us feel better and allows us to heal. This makes sense to me in the case of my abusive, alcoholic father who tortured me mentally and physically until I moved away at 16. Over the years I worked with counselors and finally confronted him and learned that his upbringing was as bad or worse than mine and that the booze was the core of his crazy, angry behavior. I was able to forgive him because I understood how sick he was at the time. I believed that he would do anything to make it up to me and was sorry beyond words. He didn't point to my success in business and say something stupid like "if I hadn't beaten and belittled you growing up maybe you wouldn't have had the guts to make it in this world". He didn't try to spin any of it into a positive, and he took his guilt to his grave despite my urges to him that it was time to forgive himself.

 

The situations are very different and simply cannot be evaluated using the same criteria. My wife clung to her view that her cheating allowed her to experience other men, something that was important to her. She said the experience made her realize how much she loved and wanted me. Only within the past 6 months has my wife finally admitted that nothing good came from her cheating, only pain and suffering. She didn't need the experience, she just wanted to have her ego fluffed and screw other men for her own selfish reasons. She says she clung to the bullsh*t story because she just couldn't face the truth that she was a cheater and acted like a low-life slut while a wife and mother of a 5 year-old son. She has told me all of this and I believe she has finally taken responsibility for what she did and acknowledged that it was wrong. However, I can still feel her burning desire to push all of this into the past and never discuss it again. She doesn't understand that I still hurt and that it cannot be "pushed" anywhere. My feelings of anger, shame and resentment are still there, and I cannot forgive her yet. I think there's a good chance that forgiveness - at least my definition of it - will never happen. I'm still willing to grow old with her because we got 90% of the way toward reconciliation and, for me, that's close enough. For now.

 

I hope this gives you a better understanding of my situation.

[drifter777]

All that analysis is coming. Our MC has been dealing with me and my shock first. Good idea, I suppose. We've barely touched on her mental state and the pre-A conditions. To me it was mid-life crisis, complacency from me, a sexual awakening for her, two kids, two professional careers, and then someone came along who she could talk to. But there is more deep stuff we have to explore that let it go on so long. We're getting there. My recent anger closed her up a bit. I'm now recreating the safe environment for her to share everything as we had in the first place.

 

Kidd: Please try to realize when you are rationalizing like this and just stop doing it. Your wife cheated because it was fun, it felt good, and she loved all the attention, danger and excitement. You need to face that fact and decide if this is the woman you want to live with for the rest of your life. I can assure you that the porn movies starring your wife and OM are not going to just go away. There will be times when pictures of the two of them together are going to come crashing into your head and you are going to hate the sight of her. What I'm telling you here is true and will happen whether you want it to or not.

 

Real life is intruding on the life you wish you were living, and you must at least start to face reality. You think you are, but you are not. You say you are working with an IC and that is a great place to begin. Next time you see him, tell him what I posted here today and tell him that I challenged you to tell him exactly how you feel about the affair. Then tell me how that session went.

 

Really, I wish you only the best and hope you will recover and find peace.

[drifter777]

Yeah, "past it now" wasn't a wise way to say it. The anger will be back. What I'm past is the uncontrolled release of it in order to punish her. I've got to communicate sooner and I'm committed to avoiding angry outbursts and when possible, disrespectful judgments. It's not worth the setback in our communication which is what usually caused it in the first place. It's a cycle that I have a part in breaking.

 

Feel what you feel and top stifling yourself like this! Assuming that you can control any urge to physically hurt your wife, the rest is fair game. You feel what you feel and need to face it when it's there. Stop worrying about any "setback in our communication" because your are just re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic! If you cannot honestly express your feelings to your wife then what's the point trying to reconcile?

 

I realize, even if you don't, that you are not ready to express your true feelings and I'm sorry if I'm coming across too harsh. For me, it's like watching a car accident in slow motion and I believe I have the ability to affect the outcome in a positive way so I'm trying to help you steer. I just want to see you stop all these rationalizations and well-thought out plans and pay much more attention to your emotions.