Next steps?

[Untouchable_Fire]

I wasn't so much offended by characterizations of my wife. They are fair statements in most cases based on her actions. But I found myself overly influenced by the convincing, "run, get an attorney now, she's still f..king the other man-type advice." In most cases, they are probably right and trying to save me more time in anguish. But I allowed it to overshadow my own thoughts and they convinced me I couldn't trust my own thoughts either. It was right to influence me to tell the OMW but the paranoia that led me to also also discuss it with her father last night was wrong. I made an emotional decision convinced that she would go ballistic and we'd be done. I was saying goodbye to her family but instead I've severely damaged my chances at reconciliation. I should have calmed down, let things unfold more slowly, and kept my head in the game. Now she has a justified reason to be pissed that won't exactly be fixed easily. The SAA book reinforced the paranoia by implying that almost all EA's return to the A and suddenly (yesterday) I was interpreting every action in the worst possible light. There is a lot of justifiable doom and gloom on here because BSs lose no only their spouse but house, car, kids, family, and sometimes career. But not all situations are the same. Not all cheaters are evil. Some people can realize the error of their ways and make changes. I understand those that would never try (why should you have to?). I've got a lot invested here and while R is nearly impossible, I wanted to see if it's possible. While my WS was trying everything she knew, she doesn't have a guidebook either. I can understand reluctance to just leaving a 21 year career and angst about rigid transparency and reluctance to exposure. She's coming around, out of the fog as they say. But in my paranoia and without any real evidence to the contrary, I sabotaged my own hopes. I can still blame her if I like (I didn't create this situation) but at some point I have to be responsible for my own decisions, too.

 

I definitely think you can reconcile here. Telling her parents is a bad move in my opinion... but it is a pretty common thing to do. In order to really reconcile, she has to be able to forgive you for things both past and present before it matters whether you will forgive or not.

 

I would be willing to bet your wife is still in shock from DDay.

 

It's easy to just act out and do things in anger for revenge. Resist that urge and focus on really thinking things through before you talk to somebody. Telling everyone may come back to bite you in the rump... and I'm not talking about hurting the reconciliation process.

 

 

I specifically asked for "next steps" and therefore, advice. I would like every BS on this thread to cut themselves and every other BS a break. No one (except the potential murderers) comes on here with mal-intent. Your knowledge is power for another BS and your sharing of it is a gift. That giving is something that we all have in common. If we have to label ourselves as more than "betrayed" then even "bitter" or "broken" perspectives bring value to all of us. I appreciate not being ignorant but ultimately I have enoug faith in myself to truly still know my own scenario better than anyone else. I appreciate all of you and hope the best for you. In closing, I just want to support radical honesty as a best practice. I try to make decisions of which I can be proud and that's how I stay healthy. Dryerase...this is directed at you and other WS that try to protect us...I know you don't want to hurt us (and we make it clear that we don't want to be hurt which makes it hard for you to share) but we can handle that you have thoughts of the other man (of course you do) but leaving out the "but I would never do this to you again" part of the honesty then gets let out, too. Tell them everything, show that you respect them enough to let them judge you, and then watch for the results. If you continue to deserve it, you'll get what you deserve. I'm going to be honest with my wife about this thread tonight. And then I'm going to try to delete it.

 

This is where you take a pause and really evaluate these posters. THIS is how powerfully damaging cheating can be! The level of emotional abuse heaped onto the BS is so great it completely SHATTERS some people. They are way beyond your words or anybody's help in my opinion. Hopefully you are of a more resilient type.

 

So... you want some "next step" advice...? DONT SEPARATE!

 

If you want to reconcile... you need to change your actions, and then spend 20 hours a week MINIMUM with your wife. If you leave it will make her feel like you are not willing to really reconcile. If you put time and effort into her she is more likely to realize why she fell in love with you.

 

The desire for retribution will always be there... for the moment shelve it. It does not fit your current goals.

[RepairMinded]

OK, I don't want to T/J Kidd's thread any further, but I do want to make sure that people understand something about my viewpoint real quick.

 

There seems to be a belief, primarily fostered by JMK, that I live in fear of my wife having another affair.

 

I drew this conclusion based on your own post focusing on the existence of your present-tense acknowledgment of the existence of a series of already-mapped out "consequences" you would impose in the event she cheats again. This means in a very significant way, you don't have confidence that she has fully changed from being the person who cheated on you in the past. (Note: I am not saying you have any obligation to "forgive" what she did in the past.)

 

Not at all, for two important reasons to note.

 

First...do I believe she could? Yes.

 

You don't just believe that she "could," in the abstract hypothetical sense that "anyone" could. You believe she actually might.

 

 

But here's the factor you're not taking into account... I don't believe she's any MORE susceptible to having one than any other person in the world.

 

O.K. by saying this you actually support JMK's "denial" theory.

 

Your wife is absolutely more susceptible to cheat in the future than someone who has NEVER cheated, ever. Just because a lot of people cheat, including your wife, doesn't mean EVERYONE cheats, or is "susceptible" to it under the kind of circumstances you and your wife are likely to encounter in the future. There are people posting at LS, quite a few, who claim never to have cheated and believe themselves incapable of it. I have no reason to disbelieve those folks. If you believe that THEY are equally likely to cheat in the future as your wife is, when you have no basis to equate such people with your wife, then I am afraid you ARE in "denial."

 

 

 

I don't believe she's any more likely to do so than I am...or than JMK is in his next relationship.

 

Then why is it necessary for you to have an articulated set of consequences if she does cheat in the future? Why not just be fully trusting of her? That is, if you claim to be "fully recovered" from her affair?

 

By the way even if you and JMK are "equally likely" to cheat as is your wife (you obviously have no basis to say that about JMK unless he's already admitted to being a cheater), you still can't say EVERYONE is "equally likely" to cheat as your wife.

 

What you've done is brought the whole world down to your wife's level, including yourself, by making the completely unsupportable assertion that "everyone" is equally likely to cheat as your wife. That simply is not true. Maybe a lot of people are; but do you seriously think "bentnotbroken" or "spark" (to name a couple of posters at LS who seem rabidly anti-cheating) are equally capable as your wife to be cheaters in the future?

 

 

What I've learned is that no relationship is immune to the possibility of it happening. Not mine with my wife now, not in a relationship I might have had with someone else...not in ANY relationship.

 

In the abstract I would tend to agree with you. However that does not at all mean there is no one else in the world LESS likely to cheat than your wife (as a supposedly "reformed" former wayward spouse).

 

And this is obviously one of the scars that you still bear from cheating. In order to "reconcile" with your wife, you changed your entire mind set to be totally cynical. You have to assume the entire human race is as likely to cheat as your wife in order to accept her back. That's just "bitterness" in another guise.

 

 

 

You're taking it like I'm afraid that she's going to do it again. I'm not. I don't spend any kind of time considering it.

 

I have to agree with JMK that you are in total denial about this particular issue. You say you "don't spend any kind of time considering it" in the very same post that you are considering it!

 

(As well as in numerous other posts in which you make reference either directly or indirectly to your wife's cheating, its consequences, and the attitudes you've formed as a result of it.)

 

 

 

I'm simply pointing out that infidelity is possible in ANY relationship...no relationship is immune to the possiblity of it happening.

 

No that's not what only what you're doing. You're bringing the rest of the world down to your wife's level so you can justify to yourself remaining with her. If everyone else is equally likely to cheat as your wife--which is what you contend--then and only then does she remain an acceptable partner for you.

 

Except it's not true. Everyone else is NOT "equally likely" to cheat as your wife.

 

 

 

Secondly, I've learned a lot about relationships as a result of what we've gone through. I've learned a lot about how to improve communication in our relationship. How to better communicate my wants/needs/expectations, and how better to listen to hers. I've also learned a lot more about how affairs work, and how to safeguard against them as best as we can. So I'm far more at ease in this relationship because of this new knowledge.

 

It's good to turn lemons into lemonade whenever possible. However the central "denial" issue is your false assertion that everyone else in the world is equally likely, or at least as likely, to cheat in the future as your wife. Also that you supposedly never think about the possibility of your wife cheating on you again. I disagree, it sounds like you think about it 24/7.

 

 

 

Third, I've learned a lot about myself after having gone through this. I don't live in any kind of fear of something like this happening again.

 

More denial here. If you contend that it is quite possible for your wife to cheat again--that she was never able to successfully "remake herself" into a personality who was incapable of ever cheating again (you know, someone like "spark" or "bentnotbroken" who just both strike me as people who would rather jump off a cliff or put hot needles under their nails rather than ever cheat), then why is that possibility not something to fear?

 

If you truthfully think your spouse is capable of cheating again yet that prospect isn't a fearful one, and you are being truthful about the lack of fear, then you are not 100% emotionally committed to your relationship. Because if you were still 100% committed to your wife, and she did cheat on you again, regardless of whatever consequences you had ready to impose, it would still be an incredibly traumatic experience for you. Maybe even worse than the first time. And thus something to "fear."

 

 

I've learned a lot about my own strength. I know that I WANT to be in a relationship with her, but I don't NEED to be in one in order to live and be happy. I've got the strength to survive on my own if it were to come down to that...and so if I were to face that potential again, I wouldn't be nearly as devestated as I was the first time around.

 

"I think she is quite capable of cheating on me again but if she does it won't really matter because I don't really need her."

 

That doesn't sound like complete recovery to me.

 

JMK projects his own fears into everything he sees here on LS.

 

I don't see him as "projecting" anything, I think he is just an over the top hard core anti-cheater advocate. An absolutist.

 

And actually if what motivates him is his fear, it's an honest fear, because anyone who claims not to be afraid of the destructive capacity of a cheating spouse is in my opinion in denial. You on the other hand claim to be fearless.

 

 

 

I believe that he never healed as a result of what he went through. When he hit the anger phase of dealing with the situation, he ended the relationship there.

 

If you get a knife in the back it's going to leave scars. JMK isn't trying to pretend he doesn't have any scars. He just didn't want to give his ex the opportunity to stick the knife in his back again. Seems perfectly rational to me, actually.

 

You on the other hand insist on a clearly unrealistic world view in which EVERYONE ELSE is at least equally likely to cheat on their spouse, as your wife is to cheat on you again, but a possibility which you claim creates no fear in you. So what you are saying really is that you believe your wife still has a shiv somewhere but if she tries to stab you with it again that doesn't scare you because everyone else has a shiv and is just as likely to use it as your wife.

 

If I had your attitude not only would I not even pretend to claim to be reconciled, I would be counseling others not to get married in the first place. Your world view is more cynical even than JMK's because JMK never said he thought EVERYONE is a potential cheater, even people who have never ever done it before. On the contrary he seems to be saying "ditch the proven cheater so you will have an opportunity to find someone else who is better than that." You don't seem to believe there is a "better."

 

So who really is the more bitter and cynical of the two of you? The one who gets rid of the wayward spouse to open the opportunity of finding someone who won't cheat; or the one who doesn't bother getting rid of the wayward spouse, because there's no possibility of finding someone who's intrinsically any less dishonest and unfaithful?

 

 

 

 

He's not been able to release that anger on the woman who betrayed him...so he releases it here on every WS he encounters. They're the surrogate for the person he's still REALLY angry at.

 

He got rid of the person who betrayed him. You didn't. Who actually has more reason to be angry--him, or you?

 

 

 

And because he was unable to recover his marriage, because he was unable to heal and move on...he projects that onto every situation he sees here. Because HE couldn't heal or recover his marriage...no one can heal or recover their marriage.

 

Now it actually sounds like you're probably talking about yourself, Owl.

 

There's no anger in this post...I feel sorry for him. He really should seek help, because other than providing a place for him to vent his own anger out on others...LS can't do anything for him, and he's still not learned to cope with all the anger and hurt he's still got from what his wife did to him...and his own choice to end the relationship before he could work through the process of healing from it.

 

Yeah I think we all get it, you're totally healed and healthy and your marriage is fully recovered.

[Owl]

I'm not going to TJ this thread further.

 

If you want to continue this discussion...send a PM or start a new thread around the concepts you're embracing, and I'll be glad to join in.

[RepairMinded]

Very good insight. I have to say that when my ex-wife had her affair she acted more like a man that eats cake and her single OM was the one with aspirations.

 

Nevertheless, she had to emotionally bond with OM before having sex and she had to detach from myself. At the time I could feel it, but could not imagine she was cheating.

 

Sometimes I think cheaters marry people that cannot imagine cheating. This makes it quite easy for the wayward spouse. At the end my wife was very careless.

 

That's an interesting observation.

 

Owl has contended that ALL OF US (including you, Pierre) are equally likely to cheat in the future as Owl's wife.

 

I responded that is not a reality-based viewpoint. Here, you are postulating there is a signficiant subset of people who are incapable of cheating.

 

So what do you think Pierre? Are we all just as capable of cheating as Owl's wife? Is his world-view on this topic reality based, in your opinion?

[John Michael Kane]

OK, I don't want to T/J Kidd's thread any further, but I do want to make sure that people understand something about my viewpoint real quick.

 

We see it clear enough.

 

There seems to be a belief, primarily fostered by JMK, that I live in fear of my wife having another affair.

Oh I'm not the only one who has my "view."

 

Not at all, for two important reasons to note.

 

First...do I believe she could? Yes. But here's the factor you're not taking into account... I don't believe she's any MORE susceptible to having one than any other person in the world. I don't believe she's any more likely to do so than I am...or than JMK is in his next relationship. What I've learned is that no relationship is immune to the possibility of it happening. Not mine with my wife now, not in a relationship I might have had with someone else...not in ANY relationship.

A cheater who cheated is more likely to cheat than someone who hasn't cheated, plain and simple. Yes there's always a risk, but that does not mean one must settle with the person who knowingly showed them they care about orgasms with another man than the marriage.

 

You're taking it like I'm afraid that she's going to do it again. I'm not. I don't spend any kind of time considering it. I'm simply pointing out that infidelity is possible in ANY relationship...no relationship is immune to the possiblity of it happening.

You are afraid, and that's okay to acknowledge that. You said it in the other thread. Nothing wrong with it because you got hurt and your guard is still up to a degree.

 

Secondly, I've learned a lot about relationships as a result of what we've gone through. I've learned a lot about how to improve communication in our relationship. How to better communicate my wants/needs/expectations, and how better to listen to hers. I've also learned a lot more about how affairs work, and how to safeguard against them as best as we can. So I'm far more at ease in this relationship because of this new knowledge.

The only way for a relationship to be secure, is if the people in the relationship hold their boundaries. If communication between you two were bad, then why didn't your wife settle it like an adult? You didn't cheat, she did, and that's the crux of this whole debate.

 

Third, I've learned a lot about myself after having gone through this. I don't live in any kind of fear of something like this happening again. I've learned a lot about my own strength. I know that I WANT to be in a relationship with her, but I don't NEED to be in one in order to live and be happy. I've got the strength to survive on my own if it were to come down to that...and so if I were to face that potential again, I wouldn't be nearly as devestated as I was the first time around.

Then why remain if you really don't need her? You claim to be fully recovered, yet you're still on guard about her cheating again.

 

JMK projects his own fears into everything he sees here on LS.

Not me. You.

 

I believe that he never healed as a result of what he went through.

I know that you never healed as a result of what you went through.

 

When he hit the anger phase of dealing with the situation, he ended the relationship there.

You're resentful about staying.

 

He's not been able to release that anger on the woman who betrayed him...so he releases it here on every WS he encounters.

Oh I have released my anger onto her, and she will never forget. After that I kicked her out and divorced her.

 

They're the surrogate for the person he's still REALLY angry at.

You call folks here bitter because you're angry that you decided to settle with the one person by your side, who hurt you.

 

And because he was unable to recover his marriage, because he was unable to heal and move on...he projects that onto every situation he sees here. Because HE couldn't heal or recover his marriage...no one can heal or recover their marriage.

And because you stayed, you let your wife guilt you into somehow seeming you were part of her decision to cheat and now here you are calling folks bitter because you're mad that you didn't leave her. So here you are, promoting reconciliation and biased "counseling" to betrayed spouses, telling them to stay with their unremorseful wives who abuse them on a daily basis with their egotistical behavior.

 

There's no anger in this post...I feel sorry for him.

Yup you're mad. The feeling is mutual.

 

He really should seek help, because other than providing a place for him to vent his own anger out on others...LS can't do anything for him, and he's still not learned to cope with all the anger and hurt he's still got from what his wife did to him...and his own choice to end the relationship before he could work through the process of healing from it.

If anyone should seek help it should be you. I chose to deal with my problems instead of staying in a miserable relationship, consistently sneaking ugly looks at the person who betrayed me. Instead of calling folks bitter because of your resentment you might want to try actually filing for divorce. No one made you stay in that relationship but yourself. You're afraid to move on so you try to convince others to stay in abusive relationships, dude. Come on now.

[Snowflower]

Not true. It's those who still come here after years talking about their marriages became improved because their spouse had sex with someone else. Or how "reconciliation sex" is the best ever. It's like they're seriously eating everything their cheating spouse feeds them.

 

Interesting...because I have never seen a BS write that they think their marriage has improved because their spouse had sex with someone else.

 

Rather, I have read stories where the affair/spouse had sex with someone else (using the words above) was the CATALYST for true change and realizations about the marriage.

 

In some cases, the realization was that the marriage had to end.

 

In other cases, the realization was that their was something definitely worth saving.

 

Please don't confuse the term catalyst with the actual act of the affair.

[Snowflower]

I specifically asked for "next steps" and therefore, advice. I would like every BS on this thread to cut themselves and every other BS a break. No one (except the potential murderers) comes on here with mal-intent. Your knowledge is power for another BS and your sharing of it is a gift. That giving is something that we all have in common. If we have to label ourselves as more than "betrayed" then even "bitter" or "broken" perspectives bring value to all of us. I appreciate not being ignorant but ultimately I have enoug faith in myself to truly still know my own scenario better than anyone else. I appreciate all of you and hope the best for you. In closing, I just want to support radical honesty as a best practice. I try to make decisions of which I can be proud and that's how I stay healthy. Dryerase...this is directed at you and other WS that try to protect us...I know you don't want to hurt us (and we make it clear that we don't want to be hurt which makes it hard for you to share) but we can handle that you have thoughts of the other man (of course you do) but leaving out the "but I would never do this to you again" part of the honesty then gets let out, too. Tell them everything, show that you respect them enough to let them judge you, and then watch for the results. If you continue to deserve it, you'll get what you deserve. I'm going to be honest with my wife about this thread tonight. And then I'm going to try to delete it.

 

Why, why, why do you want this thread deleted? I'm must be missing something here. If you don't like the advice given here then sign off of LS and don't come back.

 

Does your wife want you to delete the thread?

 

I think most, if not all posters participating in this thread thought they were helping you in their way. Some of what is written won't be helpful to you because it simply doesn't apply. So ignore it.

 

Your emotions are raw right now but don't waste your energy on any post that isn't relevant to you.

[John Michael Kane]

I drew this conclusion based on your own post focusing on the existence of your present-tense acknowledgment of the existence of a series of already-mapped out "consequences" you would impose in the event she cheats again. This means in a very significant way, you don't have confidence that she has fully changed from being the person who cheated on you in the past. (Note: I am not saying you have any obligation to "forgive" what she did in the past.)

 

 

 

You don't just believe that she "could," in the abstract hypothetical sense that "anyone" could. You believe she actually might.

 

 

 

 

O.K. by saying this you actually support JMK's "denial" theory.

 

Your wife is absolutely more susceptible to cheat in the future than someone who has NEVER cheated, ever. Just because a lot of people cheat, including your wife, doesn't mean EVERYONE cheats, or is "susceptible" to it under the kind of circumstances you and your wife are likely to encounter in the future. There are people posting at LS, quite a few, who claim never to have cheated and believe themselves incapable of it. I have no reason to disbelieve those folks. If you believe that THEY are equally likely to cheat in the future as your wife is, when you have no basis to equate such people with your wife, then I am afraid you ARE in "denial."

 

 

 

 

 

Then why is it necessary for you to have an articulated set of consequences if she does cheat in the future? Why not just be fully trusting of her? That is, if you claim to be "fully recovered" from her affair?

 

By the way even if you and JMK are "equally likely" to cheat as is your wife (you obviously have no basis to say that about JMK unless he's already admitted to being a cheater), you still can't say EVERYONE is "equally likely" to cheat as your wife.

 

What you've done is brought the whole world down to your wife's level, including yourself, by making the completely unsupportable assertion that "everyone" is equally likely to cheat as your wife. That simply is not true. Maybe a lot of people are; but do you seriously think "bentnotbroken" or "spark" (to name a couple of posters at LS who seem rabidly anti-cheating) are equally capable as your wife to be cheaters in the future?

 

 

 

 

In the abstract I would tend to agree with you. However that does not at all mean there is no one else in the world LESS likely to cheat than your wife (as a supposedly "reformed" former wayward spouse).

 

And this is obviously one of the scars that you still bear from cheating. In order to "reconcile" with your wife, you changed your entire mind set to be totally cynical. You have to assume the entire human race is as likely to cheat as your wife in order to accept her back. That's just "bitterness" in another guise.

 

 

 

 

 

I have to agree with JMK that you are in total denial about this particular issue. You say you "don't spend any kind of time considering it" in the very same post that you are considering it!

 

(As well as in numerous other posts in which you make reference either directly or indirectly to your wife's cheating, its consequences, and the attitudes you've formed as a result of it.)

 

 

 

 

 

No that's not what only what you're doing. You're bringing the rest of the world down to your wife's level so you can justify to yourself remaining with her. If everyone else is equally likely to cheat as your wife--which is what you contend--then and only then does she remain an acceptable partner for you.

 

Except it's not true. Everyone else is NOT "equally likely" to cheat as your wife.

 

 

 

 

 

It's good to turn lemons into lemonade whenever possible. However the central "denial" issue is your false assertion that everyone else in the world is equally likely, or at least as likely, to cheat in the future as your wife. Also that you supposedly never think about the possibility of your wife cheating on you again. I disagree, it sounds like you think about it 24/7.

 

 

 

 

 

More denial here. If you contend that it is quite possible for your wife to cheat again--that she was never able to successfully "remake herself" into a personality who was incapable of ever cheating again (you know, someone like "spark" or "bentnotbroken" who just both strike me as people who would rather jump off a cliff or put hot needles under their nails rather than ever cheat), then why is that possibility not something to fear?

 

If you truthfully think your spouse is capable of cheating again yet that prospect isn't a fearful one, and you are being truthful about the lack of fear, then you are not 100% emotionally committed to your relationship. Because if you were still 100% committed to your wife, and she did cheat on you again, regardless of whatever consequences you had ready to impose, it would still be an incredibly traumatic experience for you. Maybe even worse than the first time. And thus something to "fear."

 

 

 

 

"I think she is quite capable of cheating on me again but if she does it won't really matter because I don't really need her."

 

That doesn't sound like complete recovery to me.

 

 

 

I don't see him as "projecting" anything, I think he is just an over the top hard core anti-cheater advocate. An absolutist.

 

And actually if what motivates him is his fear, it's an honest fear, because anyone who claims not to be afraid of the destructive capacity of a cheating spouse is in my opinion in denial. You on the other hand claim to be fearless.

 

 

 

 

 

If you get a knife in the back it's going to leave scars. JMK isn't trying to pretend he doesn't have any scars. He just didn't want to give his ex the opportunity to stick the knife in his back again. Seems perfectly rational to me, actually.

 

You on the other hand insist on a clearly unrealistic world view in which EVERYONE ELSE is at least equally likely to cheat on their spouse, as your wife is to cheat on you again, but a possibility which you claim creates no fear in you. So what you are saying really is that you believe your wife still has a shiv somewhere but if she tries to stab you with it again that doesn't scare you because everyone else has a shiv and is just as likely to use it as your wife.

 

If I had your attitude not only would I not even pretend to claim to be reconciled, I would be counseling others not to get married in the first place. Your world view is more cynical even than JMK's because JMK never said he thought EVERYONE is a potential cheater, even people who have never ever done it before. On the contrary he seems to be saying "ditch the proven cheater so you will have an opportunity to find someone else who is better than that." You don't seem to believe there is a "better."

 

So who really is the more bitter and cynical of the two of you? The one who gets rid of the wayward spouse to open the opportunity of finding someone who won't cheat; or the one who doesn't bother getting rid of the wayward spouse, because there's no possibility of finding someone who's intrinsically any less dishonest and unfaithful?

 

 

 

 

 

 

He got rid of the person who betrayed him. You didn't. Who actually has more reason to be angry--him, or you?

 

 

 

 

 

Now it actually sounds like you're probably talking about yourself, Owl.

 

 

 

Yeah I think we all get it, you're totally healed and healthy and your marriage is fully recovered.

 

Good post.

[John Michael Kane]

That's an interesting observation.

 

Owl has contended that ALL OF US (including you, Pierre) are equally likely to cheat in the future as Owl's wife.

 

I responded that is not a reality-based viewpoint. Here, you are postulating there is a signficiant subset of people who are incapable of cheating.

 

So what do you think Pierre? Are we all just as capable of cheating as Owl's wife? Is his world-view on this topic reality based, in your opinion?

 

I guess I'm a cheater then!

[John Michael Kane]

Interesting...because I have never seen a BS write that they think their marriage has improved because their spouse had sex with someone else.

 

They may not have said it directly but it was stated, just differently.

 

Rather, I have read stories where the affair/spouse had sex with someone else (using the words above) was the CATALYST for true change and realizations about the marriage.

 

Oh yes I have seen that before, and it's pure bile.

 

In some cases, the realization was that the marriage had to end.

 

Which is good because they're actually sparing their BS future tortuous pain.

 

In other cases, the realization was that their was something definitely worth saving.

 

Not true. They're just getting off on the fact that they get to have their cake and eat it. Cheating with another does not make someone want to be faithful and keep their legs closed. That's warped.

 

Please don't confuse the term catalyst with the actual act of the affair.

 

I was going to tell you that.

[rafallus]

Whatever. Looks like working thinks out after an affair takes some sacrifice on BS's end. By "some", I mean "hell a lot of". If they are willing to do that, let them. I wouldn't, but it's their battle, not mine. And quite an uphill one, it seems.

[Snowflower]

I'm not going to TJ this thread further.

 

If you want to continue this discussion...send a PM or start a new thread around the concepts you're embracing, and I'll be glad to join in.

 

Yes, JMK or RM...please start your own thread. I'll be glad to participate.

 

I feel sorry for Kidd because his thread has gone so off topic.

[silktricks]

She is truly doing everything possible otherwise and we've been doing remarkably well. While I still think about it all 24/7, the devastation is gone and most of the anger, too. Could use some counsel.

 

I haven't read this thread, but see it is very long, so I will try not to repeat what I'm imagining has been posted by others.

 

It sounds as if you and your wife are working through her infidelity and I'd like to add that it sounds like you are making all the right moves. Being worried is only natural. Recovery is difficult - for both of you. Being there for each other in the difficult times is really rough, but hopefully the two of you can use this as a time/occasion to rebuild your marriage from the ground up.

 

I do want/need, however, to remark upon the item I quoted from your OP. Please do not assume the anger is gone. It will erupt on you (generally at the most inopportune times) for sometime to come. Two months is just barely getting your toes wet in affair recovery time.

 

Good luck to both of you. Keep communication open. It's good that she's willing to answer your hard questions. There could come a time when she's got some hard ones for you, too.

[Kidd]

Where to start? Too many posts to reply to all.

 

Owl...I completely believe that anyone can cheat when put in certain circumstances. If I had had an attractive female coworker who took an interest in me, and we made an emotional connection, perhaps discussing how we were struggling in our marriages, it could happen. Doesn't justify it. There are conscious bad choices but that vulnerability lies in all relationships. If anything your wife is probably now much less likely to cheat considering the price paid. I would grant that BSs might be less likely considering their personal experiences but then you have revenge affairs. We're human. Ultimately there are no guarantees but I am repeating myself. I, for one, believe my wife has learned her lesson. She's cried daily for about 7 weeks. Now that the affair is exposed to OMW and her family, she continues to remain with me, remorseful, and suffering consequences without blaming me once.

 

I'll grant that paranoid was a poor term. I have justified reasons to suspect an ongoing affair. I would characterize my conclusion that she was actively engaged in an ongoing physical affair as misguided and inaccurate. Do I have proof? Nope. Not either way. To then act on emotional impulse is what I regret. Her reactions to every step of this is what no one here sees. Other than doing the right thing, what possible motivation does she have for staying with me and lying now? It would have to be complete evil, demonic possession with a twist of cruelty for fun.

 

I find it interesting to argue with the "realists" who act like Nostradamus and preach that the end is near.

 

As far as her job is concerned, while I believe that there is little or no debate about the importance of NC, I also guarantee that there have been successful Rs where the WS did not immediately leave the workplace but took steps to transition that were agreed upon as reasonable by the BS. Unless, of course, you dont believe in succesful Rs. It is wonderful to hypothesize about what you would do and what MUST happen but my situation is not hypothetical. This is my real life, not just a bunch of text.

 

As for today, my wife just called and said the OM is having success getting her swapped with a mgr at another location. Needs approval of the next guy up who hasn't wanted to let her go. She has worked there 3 times and hasno interest in going there but is hoping to go anyway. We'll see. Otherwise, we have a family dinner out planned with my in-laws tonight to celebrate my son's grades this year. Sure it will be fun for my wife. She's terribly afraid of the conversations she probably has to have with both of her parents now. Yeah, she's taking the easy, scot-free, no consequences way out alright.

[Spark1111]

Where to start? Too many posts to reply to all.

 

Owl...I completely believe that anyone can cheat when put in certain circumstances. If I had had an attractive female coworker who took an interest in me, and we made an emotional connection, perhaps discussing how we were struggling in our marriages, it could happen. Doesn't justify it. There are conscious bad choices but that vulnerability lies in all relationships. If anything your wife is probably now much less likely to cheat considering the price paid. I would grant that BSs might be less likely considering their personal experiences but then you have revenge affairs. We're human. Ultimately there are no guarantees but I am repeating myself. I, for one, believe my wife has learned her lesson. She's cried daily for about 7 weeks. Now that the affair is exposed to OMW and her family, she continues to remain with me, remorseful, and suffering consequences without blaming me once.

 

I'll grant that paranoid was a poor term. I have justified reasons to suspect an ongoing affair. I would characterize my conclusion that she was actively engaged in an ongoing physical affair as misguided and inaccurate. Do I have proof? Nope. Not either way. To then act on emotional impulse is what I regret. Her reactions to every step of this is what no one here sees. Other than doing the right thing, what possible motivation does she have for staying with me and lying now? It would have to be complete evil, demonic possession with a twist of cruelty for fun.

 

I find it interesting to argue with the "realists" who act like Nostradamus and preach that the end is near.

 

As far as her job is concerned, while I believe that there is little or no debate about the importance of NC, I also guarantee that there have been successful Rs where the WS did not immediately leave the workplace but took steps to transition that were agreed upon as reasonable by the BS. Unless, of course, you dont believe in succesful Rs. It is wonderful to hypothesize about what you would do and what MUST happen but my situation is not hypothetical. This is my real life, not just a bunch of text.

 

As for today, my wife just called and said the OM is having success getting her swapped with a mgr at another location. Needs approval of the next guy up who hasn't wanted to let her go. She has worked there 3 times and hasno interest in going there but is hoping to go anyway. We'll see. Otherwise, we have a family dinner out planned with my in-laws tonight to celebrate my son's grades this year. Sure it will be fun for my wife. She's terribly afraid of the conversations she probably has to have with both of her parents now. Yeah, she's taking the easy, scot-free, no consequences way out alright.

 

I applaud you and your wife and the efforts you are making.

 

I, too, had to endure some contact with a co-worker while he was transferring to another location.

 

I empathize completely with your sitch. It is not easy.

 

He too had to face his family. He too had to face our young adult children, his co-workers and ultimately talked to his superiors (without naming names) to protect us.

 

He also had to endure me and my rollercoaster of emotions; my insistence on full transparency; and the turning on a dime when a trigger made me completely paranoid and irrational.

 

I wish you the best. Reconciliation is not for sissies! Hang in and hang on.

 

PS: He also has all MY passwords! And he frequently reads or hears me read my posts, threads, and other posts and threads here on LS and elsewhere.

 

Sometimes we cry together. Other times, we laugh or he will shake his head at what his is written here.

 

We share everything today. I am happy to hear you are starting to do the same.

[What_Next]

dale_gribble, an amazing post, incredibly thoughtful and ultimately helpful to the OP. You aren't pushing your own agenda, you aren't trying to take the thread off on a tangent. What a concept. Certain "other" posters could take a lesson from you.

 

Kidd, it is fantastic that your wife appears to be on the right track to eliminating contact with OM. Has she told you if OM told her that this his wife now knows about the affiar (sorry if that information is already buried in this thread)?

 

From what you post it sounds to me like you are making forward progress and that progress is thus far meeting your expectations and needs. That alone is sufficient to continue on your path.

 

I wish you continued success; no matter the path you choose.

[RepairMinded]

I applaud you and your wife and the efforts you are making.

 

I, too, had to endure some contact with a co-worker while he was transferring to another location.

 

I empathize completely with your sitch. It is not easy.

 

He too had to face his family. He too had to face our young adult children, his co-workers and ultimately talked to his superiors (without naming names) to protect us.

 

He also had to endure me and my rollercoaster of emotions; my insistence on full transparency; and the turning on a dime when a trigger made me completely paranoid and irrational.

 

I wish you the best. Reconciliation is not for sissies! Hang in and hang on.

 

PS: He also has all MY passwords! And he frequently reads or hears me read my posts, threads, and other posts and threads here on LS and elsewhere.

 

Sometimes we cry together. Other times, we laugh or he will shake his head at what his is written here.

 

We share everything today. I am happy to hear you are starting to do the same.

 

Forgive me if I don't remember accurately, but in your own situation, didn't you actually have to kick your fWS out--more than once--before he finally had his "come to Jesus" moment?

[Spark1111]

Forgive me if I don't remember accurately, but in your own situation, didn't you actually have to kick your fWS out--more than once--before he finally had his "come to Jesus" moment?

 

You bet. Affair fog is a b**ch. However I accept your condescension and arrogant superiority on my woeful state of abused denial that I live in, so happily and ignorantly blissful in my relationship today.

 

Kidd, hope you are as lucky! Sincerely!

[Untouchable_Fire]

I, for one, believe my wife has learned her lesson. She's cried daily for about 7 weeks. Now that the affair is exposed to OMW and her family, she continues to remain with me, remorseful, and suffering consequences without blaming me once.

 

Is she crying because she hurt you... or is she crying because she is realizing that she must give up the affair? These are the real questions you need to answer the next few months.

 

Is staying with you and acting remorseful all it will take to make you forgive this?

 

As I see it there is a HUGE respect issue which she needs to address and just acting sorry wouldn't cut it for me. Though you may have different needs. I look at it like this... she acted like your wife for months while doing crap behind your back... acting remorseful is meaningless overall.

 

What do you really need from her? Does she only have to rebuild trust? Or does she also have to fix the respect issue. In my opinion very few women can love a man they don't respect.

 

I'll grant that paranoid was a poor term. I have justified reasons to suspect an ongoing affair. I would characterize my conclusion that she was actively engaged in an ongoing physical affair as misguided and inaccurate. Do I have proof? Nope. Not either way. To then act on emotional impulse is what I regret. Her reactions to every step of this is what no one here sees. Other than doing the right thing, what possible motivation does she have for staying with me and lying now? It would have to be complete evil, demonic possession with a twist of cruelty for fun.

 

You cannot put yourself in her shoes and think like that. You HAVE to think like an addict crazy for the next fix. It isn't intentional to hurt you... but keeping you on the backburner while she chases the next affair high is just what women do!

 

She may just ride things out with you because of the kids... but secretly fixating on the OM. I would bet she thinks about him 10 times to the 1 time she thinks of you. Remember, you said she highly values her professional life... and the OM is a huge part of that life.

 

You are part of her family life not her professional life... and as such you will seem much more mundane and boring.

 

As far as her job is concerned, while I believe that there is little or no debate about the importance of NC, I also guarantee that there have been successful Rs where the WS did not immediately leave the workplace but took steps to transition that were agreed upon as reasonable by the BS. Unless, of course, you dont believe in succesful Rs. It is wonderful to hypothesize about what you would do and what MUST happen but my situation is not hypothetical. This is my real life, not just a bunch of text.

 

There are many different paths and very few destinations. It doesn't matter how you get there or how long it takes, just so long as you are moving towards the goal.

 

As for today, my wife just called and said the OM is having success getting her swapped with a mgr at another location. Needs approval of the next guy up who hasn't wanted to let her go. She has worked there 3 times and hasno interest in going there but is hoping to go anyway. We'll see. Otherwise, we have a family dinner out planned with my in-laws tonight to celebrate my son's grades this year. Sure it will be fun for my wife. She's terribly afraid of the conversations she probably has to have with both of her parents now. Yeah, she's taking the easy, scot-free, no consequences way out alright.

 

Seriously guy... her parents are going to love her no matter what. God she could stab to death in the night on video and they would probably believe she isn't guilty. I would say this will just be embarrassing.

 

When she confronts YOUR family maybe that will be tough.

[Snowflower]

Kidd, I'm so sorry your thread was jacked so severely.

If you have any questions about reconciliation, try the PM feature to individual members whose responses on your thread were ones you could relate too.

[RepairMinded]

Where to start? Too many posts to reply to all.

 

Owl...I completely believe that anyone can cheat when put in certain circumstances.

 

Not anyone cheats with their boss at work in a long term affair, which is the relevant circumstance here.

 

 

 

If I had had an attractive female coworker who took an interest in me, and we made an emotional connection, perhaps discussing how we were struggling in our marriages, it could happen.

 

It could happen if you wanted it to happen. If you didn't want it to happen, it wouldn't.

 

 

 

Doesn't justify it.

 

So why did you mention it?

 

 

There are conscious bad choices but that vulnerability lies in all relationships.

 

This is the same as saying all people are capable of cheating. O.K. what bearing does that have on your situation?

 

 

If anything your wife is probably now much less likely to cheat considering the price paid.

 

Interesting that you would put this particular "spin" on Owl's situation since Owl himself states that his wife is just as likely to cheat on him again as anyone else. I don't think Owl's wife actually paid any price other than a little embarrassment and being deprived of her affair partner.

 

In any event, since you might not be aware of it, Owl's wife never had sex with another man at all. It was some kind of long distance telephone or internet affair. Had Owl's wife actually had sex with her OM, much less 30 times, he would have divorced her (according to some of his prior posts). I'm not clear on whether owl's wife actually ever physically even met her OM, ever. Hopefully owl will clarify and explain why he thinks immediate divorce as a consequence of sexual infidelity would have been appropriate in his situation but is not in yours.

 

 

 

 

I would grant that BSs might be less likely considering their personal experiences but then you have revenge affairs. We're human. Ultimately there are no guarantees but I am repeating myself. I, for one, believe my wife has learned her lesson.

 

There's no basis for your belief since there's no evidence that your wife has suffered any real consequences. She's never even started No Contact with her OM. A BEST CASE scenario would require your wife to have months or even years of Individual therapy before you could even contemplate that she has "learned her lesson." I'll bet she hasn't even offered a coherent explanation for the real reason she decided it would be OK to cheat on you. If she did--what was it?

 

 

She's cried daily for about 7 weeks.

 

According to the affair literature I have read, she is in the process of mourning the anticipated loss of her affair partner. She certainly can't be crying because of the harm she caused to you, since if that really bothered her so much, she wouldn't have cheated on you. Certainly not for so long.

 

You don't believe me? Read some books. ASK her. She is mourning the potential loss of her affair. If you ask her, no matter what she says, you will see it in her eyes.

 

 

Now that the affair is exposed to OMW and her family, she continues to remain with me, remorseful, and suffering consequences without blaming me once.

 

She hasn't suffered any real consequences. She still has you and she still has her OM. Real consequences would have been filing for divorce or kicking her out. She's not remorseful since a truly remorseful spouse would be in No Contact by now, even if that meant just up and quitting her job.

 

If she didn't blame you then why did you previously imply you are afraid you would be held responsible for the divorce if it occurs? Someone must have tried to blame you. If not her, then who?

 

 

I'll grant that paranoid was a poor term. I have justified reasons to suspect an ongoing affair. I would characterize my conclusion that she was actively engaged in an ongoing physical affair as misguided and inaccurate. Do I have proof? Nope. Not either way.

 

You're completely missing the point. Since NC has never been even started, much less firmly established, and she is still in daily contact with the OM, the affair's emotional component must be regarded as active and on-going. It has never stopped. Splitting hairs and saying "well no proof it's still physical as well as emotional" is pointless, emotional affairs can be worse than physical with women who fall in love with their APs.

 

 

 

To then act on emotional impulse is what I regret.

 

Why do you regret it? What exactly it is that you did, that you think you shouldn't have, or didn't have a right to do?

 

 

Her reactions to every step of this is what no one here sees.

 

We don't see it because you haven't described it. You haven't described it because it isn't there to be seen or described. All you're doing is attributing innocuous motivations to your spouse which are inconsistent with the objective facts that you have provided. She's cried every day for seven weeks which you choose to interpret as meaning she's "remorseful" for what she did. Yet she's still at the same job and she still prioritizes her job above you and above her marriage and above reconciliation. Remorse involves action, not crying.

 

 

Other than doing the right thing, what possible motivation does she have for staying with me and lying now?

 

Lots of motivations. You just don't want to think about them. Maybe she's like a lot of other cake eaters and simply wants to have both a compliant husband at home and an exciting affair partner at work. But there are lots of other possibilities--for example, maybe she was waiting to get her promotion before walking out of your marriage. Who knows? The one thing that is definitely wrong for you is to assume she is NOT lying. She's a cheater, and she's a liar, and she's well practiced at manipulation. Little girls turn on the waterworks to get out of trouble and to melt daddy's heart. Your wife sounds very accomplished at this skill.

 

 

 

It would have to be complete evil, demonic possession with a twist of cruelty for fun.

 

And having sex with the boss behind your back, making a complete fool of you, wasn't evil and demonic? It wasn't twisted and cruel? Having the pool party wasn't twisted and cruel? OK if you say so.

 

Yes she has proven by her past actions that she is completely capable of continuing her pattern of lies and deception and the odds are that is what she is exactly still doing.

 

 

 

I find it interesting to argue with the "realists" who act like Nostradamus and preach that the end is near.

 

No, the end of your marriage--at least what used to be your marriage--is in your rear view mirror and long gone. You are never getting it back. The only question is whether it is possible to create a new marriage out of the ashes of the old.

 

The marriage that you thought you had has been over for a long time and exists right now only as a legal formality. For a wife to do what yours did, they have to fall out of love with their husband and fall in love with their affair partner.

 

As far as her job is concerned, while I believe that there is little or no debate about the importance of NC, I also guarantee that there have been successful Rs where the WS did not immediately leave the workplace but took steps to transition that were agreed upon as reasonable by the BS.

 

This is pure rationalization. The only instance where remaining on the job could make any kind of sense is where loss of that income would be financially catastrophic (and you've never said it would be). At a minimum she should have asked for a few weeks of time off--paid or unpaid leave doesn't matter--to get away from the OM and to start seriously trying to reconnect with you. She didn't do that.

 

Basically your wife views you as very passive and doesn't respect you. You didn't set proper boundaries and you still haven't as to what you would and wouldn't tolerate in your marriage. In sum you are getting no where fast.

 

 

Unless, of course, you dont believe in succesful Rs. It is wonderful to hypothesize about what you would do and what MUST happen but my situation is not hypothetical. This is my real life, not just a bunch of text.

 

That's interesting, you were doing plenty of hypothesizing at the beginning of your post.

 

But you're correct, this is YOUR life your real life. You still haven't answered why it is acceptable to YOU for your wife to be in contact with this OM for one second longer.

 

 

 

As for today, my wife just called and said the OM is having success getting her swapped with a mgr at another location.

 

Sounds like they are getting their ducks in a row. She will be very grateful to him. Is that what you really want? Her believing her OM did her a great favor by getting her another position--thus suffering absolutely no consequences for cheating with him (other than being separated from him, at least they claim that's what will happen)?

 

 

Needs approval of the next guy up who hasn't wanted to let her go. She has worked there 3 times and has no interest in going there but is hoping to go anyway.

 

She shouldn't even be working in the same company. They will have numerous opportunities to re-start their affair. They will justify continued contact for "work reasons." What do you think will happen when she gets transferred, but then at some point they have to go to a work conference or retreat where the whole group is staying at the same hotel, on the company's dime?

 

 

We'll see. Otherwise, we have a family dinner out planned with my in-laws tonight to celebrate my son's grades this year.

 

Cancel the dinner and tell them why. "As you know my wife cheated on me with her boss in a long term sexual and emotional affair and I am in no mood to have a pretend celebration, like everything is a OK and we are one big happy family. We are going to devote all our energy to trying to save this marriage. If you want to take my son out for dinner just with the grandparents, that's fine. But your daughter and I will not celebrating. We are going to stay home and work at our relationship tonight."

 

And that's exactly what you should do--stay home and actually have a one on one dinner with your wife. If she or they claim you are "punishing" her, simply state: "Not punishment. A consequence of her cheating." In effect she is "grounded." If you don't even have the backbone to impose this kind of a very moderate consequence, and make it stick, she will continue to walk all over you.

 

 

Sure it will be fun for my wife.

 

Cancel it. She cheated on you. She doesn't get to have fun simply based on your son's accomplishments. She needs to focus all her available attention on YOU and your MARRIAGE. Especially since SHE CONTINUES TO WORK WITH HER OM.

 

 

She's terribly afraid of the conversations she probably has to have with both of her parents now.

 

Don't be so sure. In laws often end up taking the side of the cheating spouse. Nothing is thicker than blood for some people.

 

 

Yeah, she's taking the easy, scot-free, no consequences way out alright.

 

Taking her out to a fun dinner is a consequence? O.K. if you say so.

[RepairMinded]

You bet. Affair fog is a b**ch. However I accept your condescension and arrogant superiority on my woeful state of abused denial that I live in, so happily and ignorantly blissful in my relationship today.

 

Kidd, hope you are as lucky! Sincerely!

 

No reason whatsoever for you to be so super-defensive. The point is you failed to disclose to kidd that you had to impose serious and real consequences before your spouse was even ready to be able to reconcile.

[RepairMinded]

Repair does have a point, you know, along with JMK. I see something went down on LS that I sorrily missed before a "certain" thread was locked.

 

Owl must have asked for it to be closed, since he was the one who suggested it in that thread.

 

Maybe in the future Owl shouldn't threadjack, then challenge others to start new threads about the subject Owl is threadjacking about, then petition to get the new thread closed when he feels he is getting the worse of the debate.

[Binster]

I'm glad you seem to be geting straightend out, hope your wife gets the transfer. The big thing is that you can see posative moves on this score so if it doesn't hapen this time maybe next. At least she's trying.

Hope it all works out.

[Spark1111]

No reason whatsoever for you to be so super-defensive. The point is you failed to disclose to kidd that you had to impose serious and real consequences before your spouse was even ready to be able to reconcile.

 

Kidd is free to read my story just as you are. But that's okay....you can be right as we all know how important that is to you.