how long do u wait after he touches inside ur top before go further?

[oaks]

kung fu panda 2

 

Any good? I'm just watching the first one on tv right now.

 

wish i was living with him as a wife

 

Now you're being silly.

[Lorelai]

The decision to have sex for the first time is one that shouldn't be taken lightly.

 

Sex is not evil or bad. It's beautiful, it's pleasurable, and it's one of the most profound moments of intimacy that two people can have together.

 

But it is an act that has consequences. The chemicals released when you make love to someone are quite similar to the ones released during childbirth and breastfeeding -- they create a bond between you and the person who your brain associates with those chemicals. For women in particular, the intense feelings of bonding the act of making love creates is often enough to make us tempted to throw our brains out the window.

 

There are many, many steps in between chestplay and actually making love, and all of them are fun. While those activities are not likely to get you pregnant, many of them can transmit disease. Any contact at all between body fluids and broken skin or mucous membranes (mouth, nose, eyes, as well as genitals) can transmit disease.

 

Pardon my soapbox here, but I have a reason for it. My father died July 21, 2009, from AIDS. He was diagnosed when I was 12.

 

Oral sex is fun. It's not likely to get you pregnant. But it can give you diseases. If you are going to public school, hopefully you have a school nurse there. You should be able to go to them and ask where you might be able to obtain free unlubricated or flavored condoms to use if you decide to give your boyfriend oral sex. If he gives you oral sex, you can use a dental dam, or at worst case scenario, plastic wrap to keep him from being exposed to your fluids. It's not just real penis-in-vagina sex that requires a barrier.

 

Also, it doesn't matter that you are a virgin right now and unlikely to have a disease -- you should still make him use a dental dam. It's good practice to be in. It also wouldn't matter if the guy you were with was a virgin too -- you have no idea whether he was or not even if he said he was. If you get into the habit of unsafe practice, it's easier to slip up later on.

 

One other thing. Condoms are ESSENTIAL for disease prevention. They're the only protection we have from them aside from complete abstinence. But they are nowhere near the best way to prevent pregnancy. In addition to using condoms, I highly suggest you ask your school nurse about a referral to your county's Department of Health for a gynecological examination and consideration of whether or not you are a candidate for going on birth control pills. You can also ask about vaccinations against Hepatitis B and cancer-causing strains of HPV at that time.

 

When I decided I was ready to give my virginity to a guy, I was 15 -- almost 16, but still 15. My school actually had a division of the Department of Health inside it -- I was able to get a free pelvic exam, free condoms/dental dams, and free birth control pills. I did all of this on my own. I probably made a mistake by not conferring with my mother beforehand, and she indicated she regretted that I made that decision without talking to her. Your parents may be strict, but they love you and have a lot of life experience. Before you make this decision, I would recommend you at least seriously consider talking to your mother. It's nice to have someone with you when you go for the first time to have a pelvic exam.

 

But no matter what -- use protection and keep yourself safe. And have fun!

[Trimmer]

You cannot sit there on an internet forum and preach holding hands to a 15 year old..hahaha

No, but at the same time, isn't it a little bit skeevy for adults on an internet forum to be egging on a 15 year old girl to slide her hand into his lap to see if he's aroused, etc? As an adult (and a father of a teenage daughter) I'm sure as heck not going to sit here and tell her what moves to make next, especially when it sounds like she's with a boy who (claims to be) more experienced, and is effectively using that experience as leverage in a power game.

 

Angel, I'm a father of a young woman around your age, and here's what I would want her to know...

 

...my fault because he said my body language shows i like it - legs move apart during chestplay.

Don't let him tell you what's right for you. Nothing is "your fault"; don't let him corner you into thinking that you have to go through with something just becase you "started" it somehow. This is YOUR decision at every step of the way. You own your body and you decide what to do with it, which includes saying "stop" at any point you don't want to go further.

 

if not then he will call me a tease as my girlfriend got called by her bf. i like sex so far so i probably will like it.

As another poster pointed out, it's not so much "will you like it". It is: have you decided that it's right for you now, with this boy, and do you clearly understand and are you ready to accept all the possible consequences and risks, including pregnancy, STD's, etc?

 

Boys will do whatever they can to corner you - if you show a little enjoyment or arousal, they will turn that around to make it seem like since you started something, then you got them aroused, so you have to keep going, or somehow it's "not fair" to them, or it's "your fault" for enjoying it in the first place. And then, whether he says it outright or not, there's always that old threat of calling you a "tease" if you choose to stop at some point.

 

All of this is pressure to keep you moving forward; when you get older and more confident in your sexuality, you will realize that it represents a MAN attempting to control YOUR sexuality for HIS enjoyment. And one of the ways he does it is by making things "your fault" which implies that enjoying something (like making out and petting), but not going "all the way" is somehow wrong, bad, or shameful, and that's not true. I hope that at some point (maybe soon!) you will really understand this and not accept this kind of manipulation. Lack of experience and lack of confidence are absolutely normal at your age, but unfortunately, they leave you open to - for lack of a different term - attack, by someone who is willing to them against you to prey upon you.

 

Your sexuality belongs to you. Own it. Demand that YOU control it, and don't accept threats and manipulations to push you in a direction you are not ready or willing to go. And I know that at this age and at your current developmental level, this may be hard to understand or put together, but I hope that you will eventually grow to desire men who don't try to control and manipulate your sexuality in this way, and that you will come to find these kind of games - "your fault", "tease", "you have to", etc. - the immature ploys that they are.

Edited June 19, 2011 by Trimmer

[thatone]

No, but at the same time, isn't it a little bit skeevy for adults on an internet forum to be egging on a 15 year old girl to slide her hand into his lap to see if he's aroused, etc? As an adult (and a father of a teenage daughter) I'm sure as heck not going to sit here and tell her what moves to make next, especially when it sounds like she's with a boy who (claims to be) more experienced, and is effectively using that experience as leverage in a power game.

 

 

look, in a matter of months, she can get a license to drive a car. with that she can kill other people, nevermind herself.

 

i can appreciate the father standpoint of protecting his daughter, but kids are just not going to remain virgins into their 20s these days (by and large, at least, and not by choice even if they do). teaching them about being as safe as possible with sex is a lot more productive than telling them to not have sex at all.

 

in fact, i'll take that a step further. telling women to simultaneously abstain from sex and spend their 20s supporting and idolizing themselves makes for a lot of crazy and emotionally disturbed 30 year old women. our society is full of generalizations about how people should be, and people who try to be more than one of those can very easily wind up being conflicted and unstable adults. this scenario is a perfect example of that.

 

sex is a part of growing up just like the driver's license example. it's one of the things young adults learn in doing that there are consequences to each choice they make. and teaching them about those consequences is a helluva lot more valuable than telling them to not do something because you said so.

 

but sure, by all means, convince her and your daughter while you're at it that everything with a penis is evil. we'll look forward to her 30-32 year old "why can't i find a husband" crazy rant in about 15 years on this forum.

[Trimmer]

but sure, by all means, convince her and your daughter while you're at it that everything with a penis is evil. we'll look forward to her 30-32 year old "why can't i find a husband" crazy rant in about 15 years on this forum.

Wow, don't know where your anger is coming from, but you could probably start another good thread about it.

 

Please point out where I advocated extended abstinence over all else? Or advocated against teaching about safe sex? Or where I told her not to do something because I said so? As a matter of fact, I specifically avoided all of those points in my comments, because I didn't want to get into those debates, although those seem to be the primary points you misinterpreted from my post.

 

The point of my comments was that she should own her sexuality, and not be subject to the maniupulations of a teenage boy who tells her that it's "her fault" if she enjoys a certain level of intimacy, but chooses not to go further.

 

Your "everything with a penis is evil" comment is also your misinterpretation, which I assume must inform your own past and your own experiences, but it didn't come from my post. I was not painting all men with the same brush... Although boys... Perhaps my "Boys will do whatever they can to corner you..." comment was what set you off. OK, if I could edit my post now, I would change that to "Some boys will do whatever they can." But that's a far cry from "everything with a penis is evil". That's your problem, not mine.

 

My main point to the OP is that if this boy (and notice I call him a boy and not a man) is trying to get her to go all the way by telling her that his arousal is "her fault", and if the implicit threat of being called a "tease" is hanging over her head and pushing her forward, then she can rebalance that and make the right choice for herself by having confidence that she is in control and ownership of her sexuality. I think I was clear on that.

 

Now, if you want to have a rational discussion on my points, I'll be glad to engage you, but I have no reason to "defend" points like "everything with a penis is evil" and "remain a virgin into your 20's" when those were not reasonable interpretations of my post.

[RoseBloodSweet]

Honestly, hon. Your body is going through A LOT of hormonal changes, and although it may feel right to have sex with him now, you may think differently later on after it's already happen. Doesn't it sound like a good idea to wait it out a while to think about? I mean, yeah, I'm sure heavy making out feels good, but just, because he's your boyfriend.. doesn't mean it's time for that step, now. Just do a lot of thinking, and make sure he is the boy you WANT to give it to! He may seem sweet and giving you a lot of his attention now, but what if he changes after you give it up? Just saying, it's something to consider when you are dating young boys who are going through hormonal changes, like yourself! Be safe, too!!!!!!!!!

[Trimmer]

thatone: I apologize for my first line about the "anger". That was taunting and unnecessary and I hope it doesn't detract from our ability to engage rationally on this subject. It was too late to edit by the time I got back to it.

 

The rest stands.

[NicoleM]

Never,ever do something you don't want to do. If a guy says baby please,please if you love me you will do this do not and I repeat do not fall for that. A guy will say anything to get into your pants and that is the truth. If you do not feel comfortable doing something tell him! Sure he might be upset but who cares?? It is your body and you do not have to do anything you might regret later.

[thatone]

thatone: I apologize for my first line about the "anger". That was taunting and unnecessary and I hope it doesn't detract from our ability to engage rationally on this subject. It was too late to edit by the time I got back to it.

 

The rest stands.

 

no need to apologize, debate is debate.

 

but i still maintain the opposite, like i said i can appreciate the father protective of daughter position, but abstinence is a silly notion. people won't adhere to it. i would much rather see young people educated and provided with clinic services, as other posters mentioned, than preached to.

 

and these societal stereotypes absolutely DO make for unhealthy adults. whether it be the encouraging of women to avoid relationships in their 20s for the purpose of self reliance, or the stunting of people's sexual maturity due to abstinence speeches from adults when they were growing up, or a combination of both.

 

can you honestly say that you don't see a connection between these princess speeches that fathers give daughters about how they are only being lady like if they reject men they're attracted to, and the daughters winding up unhappily single a decade later because they slowly but surely find out that they are in fact not princesses and the world doesn't owe them happiness? it's blatantly obvious.

Edited June 19, 2011 by thatone

[oaks]

A guy will say anything to get into your pants and that is the truth.

 

Definitely true for horny teenagers. (I like to think we mellow a bit with age.)

[Trimmer]

no need to apologize, debate is debate.

 

but i still maintain the opposite, like i said i can appreciate the father protective of daughter position, but abstinence is a silly notion. people won't adhere to it. i would much rather see young people educated and provided with clinic services, as other posters mentioned, than preached to.

 

and these societal stereotypes absolutely DO make for unhealthy adults. whether it be the encouraging of women to avoid relationships in their 20s for the purpose of self reliance, or the stunting of people's sexual maturity due to abstinence speeches from adults when they were growing up, or a combination of both.

I don't think we're speaking so much on the "opposite." I'll say it again: you are claiming that I'm preaching abstinence, which I am not, as I think is unrealistic. You are throwing back at me the idea of advocating that young people avoid relationships in their 20's, which is NOT my position. You are talking about "princess speeches" about rejecting men, which is NOT my position.

 

My point - and please re-read my comments with this in mind - is simply that it benefits a young woman to cultivate a confident ownership of her own sexuality, and that this will help her make the choices that are right for her. I agree that sex education is important (and I practice what I'm preaching now...) - my point is that the emotional component is an important part of that sexual education, and that someone who is uneducated/inexperienced/lacks confidence in that area is vulnerable to predation, just as is someone who doesn't know much about birth control.

 

And my point is that in this particular case, the boy in question is applying fairly common pressure to get her to have sex with him (it's "her fault" he's aroused, that ever implicit threat of being called a "tease", etc.) and that if these are motivating factors to her - as they seemed to be from her posts - then it would benefit her to realize that the boy is responsible for his own state, and that she can and should take ownership of her own sexuality and decide for herself what she is ready for and when. There's a difference between saying "you don't need to give in to this boy's pressure - you own your sexuality, and you have every right to say "NO" at the point where you want to stop..." (which is the point I'm trying to make) and "reject men, practice abstinence for the next decade" (which is what you seem to be sending back to me, and which is NOT my point.)

 

can you honestly say that you don't see a connection between these princess speeches that fathers give daughters about how they are only being lady like if they reject men they're attracted to, and the daughters winding up unhappily single a decade later because they slowly but surely find out that they are in fact not princesses and the world doesn't owe them happiness? it's blatantly obvious.

I want to address this directly, because I don't want to leave it hanging out there like I'm ignoring your point. First, I'll say again, I don't think we're as opposed as you are saying. I'm not advocating the whole bit about rejecting men, etc. I expect my daughter to become sexual, and I know the process is already starting. I know she is already aware, and learning, and watching, and experimenting. We talk - to the degree a father can - and we are still talking about a wide range of stuff, from birth control, to abortion issues, to issues of relationship dynamics, personal power, etc. She goes to a female nurse practitioner, and knows that she can go there any time with no questions asked from me.

 

In none of this am I advocating that she reject men, or that she has to be a certain way to be "ladylike." My message to her is that she owns her sexuality, and that she has a responsibility - to herself - to be educated and aware of it, to make the best choices for herself.

 

So whether I see the connection you are asking about, between "princess speeches" and the unhappy singles a decade later - as with many things, I'm not sure it's quite that simple, but bottom line: I'm not advocating for these things that it seems you think I am.

Edited June 19, 2011 by Trimmer

[irc333]

i can appreciate the father standpoint of protecting his daughter, but kids are just not going to remain virgins into their 20s these days (by and large, at least, and not by choice even if they do). teaching them about being as safe as possible with sex is a lot more productive than telling them to not have sex at all.

 

 

And thus the threads of the mid 20's man who hasn't had much experience or hasn't even HAD sex, when they were THAT age....and would make to think they're THAT much of a "looser" for not having had sex high school.

 

But all the "cool kids" are having sex in highschool, so I suppose that's the "cool" thing to do...and the nerds who couldn't get laid in HS are desperately trying to re-enact PROM Night from the movie "AMERICAN PIE", trying to get laid that very night.

 

What a joke.

 

I highly encourage chastity until at least they're of high school.

 

Besides, shouldn't this person even be ALLOWED here? Someone grab a moderator to have the account banned if they aren't 18 or older.

[thatone]

And thus the threads of the mid 20's man who hasn't had much experience or hasn't even HAD sex, when they were THAT age....and would make to think they're THAT much of a "looser" for not having had sex high school.

 

But all the "cool kids" are having sex in highschool, so I suppose that's the "cool" thing to do...and the nerds who couldn't get laid in HS are desperately trying to re-enact PROM Night from the movie "AMERICAN PIE", trying to get laid that very night.

 

What a joke.

 

I highly encourage chastity until at least they're of high school.

 

Besides, shouldn't this person even be ALLOWED here? Someone grab a moderator to have the account banned if they aren't 18 or older.

 

and a majority of those men i'll bet were raised in single parent homes by their mothers.

 

how many mothers tell their sons that women very often want the opposite of what they say they want? how many mothers tell their sons that they should treat attention starved women worse to get laid, not better? how many women tell their sons that they are supposed to initiate physical contact with women and should do so unless she explicitly tells them no? something around 0% of them, i'll bet. i know my mother never told me any of that. if i asked my mother about women i'd get a speech regurgitated straight from an oprah episode, which any grown man knows is complete fantasy. i never figured out women in high school either, because i lived with my mother after a divorce. when i moved in with my father to go to college it started to make a lot more sense, though.

 

so yeah, all of your examples also stem from the fact that too many men grow up with only their mother around, and their mother told them all of the wrong things about sex and women in general that women tell themselves.

 

we are a fast becoming a socially deformed society in the US. parents leave their kids in front of video games rather than teaching them how to interact with other people. or worse yet, parents leave each other to find someone younger and better in bed between 30 and 40 and ignore their kids in favor of their own sexual desires. telling kids to ignore the opposite sex in school is the very opposite of addressing that problem.

[daeemann]

I guess the most disturbing of this discussion, is the generalization that girls are sweet and pure and must be protected from the horny teenaged-boys who are trying to trick the girls into having sex with them. Later on this causes a problem, when women grow up distrusting men and thinking they're only after sex. I constantly hear of older women initiating sex and when the man refuses because it's too early in the relationship, the woman thinks the man might be cheating or is gay or has a problem. Because men are not supposed to feel like woman and are always supposed to be willing to have sex when the woman so chooses. Every once in a while you even hear a woman complaining about how men no longer act like men, just because they have feelings to. Anyhow, that's my thought.

[bac]

not sure, i like him doing in my top and i like to go further because one of my best friends touched in my skirt for fun and i enjoyed it but i told him its wrong because we are just friends and that i have a boyfriend. so i would like my boyfriend to do it because i know its good but just dont want him to think im too fast

 

There are no real rules for your age but there are the basic things that your parents told you. You just go with flow and test what is right for you. If you already have a BF, it is the right time to make out. If you want to have sex, you might want to know that there are risk to get pregnant and to get STDs. If you get STDs, you are at risk of infertility, cancer later in life or death if you get HIV. No, very young boys do not care much if you are fast. It is not so serious for them as it is for you.

Edited June 20, 2011 by bac

[Art_Critic]

I guess the most disturbing of this discussion, is the generalization that girls are sweet and pure and must be protected from the horny teenaged-boys who are trying to trick the girls into having sex with them. Later on this causes a problem, when women grow up distrusting men and thinking they're only after sex.

 

Why is it so disturbing... it a basic fact from my experience that guys at that hormonal age only want one thing and they will say anything to get it.

What is wrong with protecting your daughter ?

As a parent not only are you thinking of your child's safety but also.. who would raise the child if they were to get pregnant at 15 and how would raising a child at 15 change your daughters life.

[thatone]

we don't protect people from auto accidents by telling them not to drive a car.

[EasyHeart]

we don't protect people from auto accidents by telling them not to drive a car.

We do if they're 15!!!

[musemaj11]

People who think they can prevent their teenage daughters from having sex are stupid. Its like they were never teenagers before. Its such a pointless thing to do.

 

Instead of telling your teenage kids to fight the hormones that they cant fight, teach them about the importance of contraceptives and the danger of STDs and teenage pregnancy.

[Trimmer]

we don't protect people from auto accidents by telling them not to drive a car.

Actually, we do.

 

We don't let our kids have learner's permits until a certain age, and in some states, that age is even later, unless you can show proof that you have taken a driver's education course. In some states, young drivers, even after they get their licenses, are limited with respect to day/night driving, or taking passengers until a later age. All of this based upon the premise that a certain level of emotional development, experience, and education is beneficial to improve one's safety when driving.

 

OK, some are spending a lot of time talking in generalizations about what "we should tell our daughters" and the effects on society, etc. This thread is about a particular 15-year old girl asking a question about whether she should "go further" than she already is when she feels like she'll be called a "tease" if she doesn't, and her boyfriend is, among other things, telling her it's "her fault" he's aroused, and that she must want it because opened her legs when he touched her breasts. What is your advice for her? Are you saying she should dive for his crotch so she doesn't turn into a sad, sorry 35-year old spinster? Let him "hit that" so later in life, she won't afraid of men in her future relationships? What is your advice for this young woman?

[thatone]

actually if you re-read her posts she didn't say that her boyfriend said any of those things at all. her friends told her those things that they heard from their boyfriends.

 

she also said her parents never talked to her about sex.

 

if anything she's proving my point rather than yours. she's resorting to the internet for things her parents didn't teach her. we can't really advise her to have better parents, attend better schools, and live in places with better people, since those choices are not hers to make at 15.

 

so we're left with telling her to get the condoms and carry them like her cellphone (ALL the time), and do her best to figure it out on her own, since no one else she knows is helping, apparently.

[Trimmer]

actually if you re-read her posts she didn't say that her boyfriend said any of those things at all. her friends told her those things that they heard from their boyfriends.

 

my fault because he said my body language shows i like it - legs move apart during chestplay.

 

she also said her parents never talked to her about sex.

 

if anything she's proving my point rather than yours.

I'm wondering - just what do you think my "point" is?

 

I'm not trying to win a "point" about society in general. The important part of my posts in this thread address the OP, who I think would benefit from education (I agree with you here, and have never said otherwise) and confidence that her sexuality is normal, and belongs to her, and that she is capable and allowed to say STOP or NO if she isn't ready to move forward, irrespective of whatever pressure she might be feeling from teh outside (whether her boyfriend is the one applying it or not.)

 

Since you seem to believe we have opposed viewpoints, are you saying that advising a young person (male or female...) to have confidence that they can say STOP and NO at any time, and that they don't have to feel pressured from the outside if they aren't ready to move forward themselves is bad advice? Do you think this is the advice that will drive her to 30-year-old spinsterhood?

[oaks]

Don't fight in front of the children.

[thatone]

I'm wondering - just what do you think my "point" is?

 

I'm not trying to win a "point" about society in general. The important part of my posts in this thread address the OP, who I think would benefit from education (I agree with you here, and have never said otherwise) and confidence that her sexuality is normal, and belongs to her, and that she is capable and allowed to say STOP or NO if she isn't ready to move forward, irrespective of whatever pressure she might be feeling from teh outside (whether her boyfriend is the one applying it or not.)

 

your point being to scare her away from the guy she's with, you were in complete "father/daughter mode" telling her that all teenage males are not to be trusted.

 

This thread is about a particular 15-year old girl asking a question about whether she should "go further" than she already is when she feels like she'll be called a "tease" if she doesn't, and her boyfriend is, among other things, telling her it's "her fault" he's aroused, and that she must want it because opened her legs when he touched her breasts.

 

like that.

 

it's pretty obvious that she's going to do what she wants anyway.

 

if anything, she should be commended for researching on her own what her parents didn't teach her.

[Trimmer]

like that.

The quote you excerpted to demonstrate how I am trying to "scare her away" was an objective, factual summary of the OP's own points. You seem to be inferring an attitude on my part that isn't contained in that quote - and doing it with a lack of nuance, at that.

 

your point being to scare her away from the guy she's with,

I don't see that... Please quote a better example. I did tell her boys will do what they can to get in her pants (to use the vernacular), and I still believe that (and YOU know it to be true, too...) but it would be silly to extend that to "stay away from all boys." Maybe that's why I'm so confused by your misunderstanding of my position - I see "stay away from all boys, because you can't trust them" to be a silly position, but that seems to be what you keep throwing back at me. Please point out where I've told her she SHOULD drop this boy, or where she SHOULD say no to anything she chooses to do.

 

...you were in complete "father/daughter mode" telling her that all teenage males are not to be trusted.

You are so sure that our viewpoints are irreconcilably opposed that I still don't think you get the point that I care most about. If you insist, I will grant that I do believe that all teenage males are not to be trusted - to make decisions about when and how quickly a young woman is ready to move forward with her sexual experimentation. I believe that it benefits ANY young person, male or female, to establish a confidence and ownership of his or her sexual identity and behavior, and a knowledge of emotional and interpersonal dynamics, to the point that he or she can make decisions for him or herself without being unduly influenced by outside pressure. Please address this: are you disagreeing with this point?

 

Beyond that, I think we agree on most stuff: early education is paramount, parental involvement in that is very important, and if this girl's parents are "hands off" at this point in her life, that's very unfortunate.

 

it's pretty obvious that she's going to do what she wants anyway.

That's no reason to throw one's hands up and say little more than "well then, carry condoms and read the web," which seems like all you have to offer, and is little more than her parents have done, it sounds like. We can still have a discussion of relationships, sexuality issues, interpersonal dynamics, etc. so she doesn't end up approaching this from an emotional black hole, just getting her information from her boyfriend - who I'm sure is a fine young man, but also likely one with a particular stake in a particular outcome.

 

She may feel like it's necessary to have sex with this boy. I would want her to believe that it is her choice.

 

Which do you think: is it necessary for her to do this so she doesn't become a sad old spinster, or is it possible that there's a choice to be made here?

 

if anything, she should be commended for researching on her own what her parents didn't teach her.

Can't argue with that. And I will say again that it seems that you and I are of the same mind regarding the importance of parental involvement, the lack of which necessitates her doing her own research. But (repeating myself, I think, but in paraphrase this time) my saying "here's how boys may behave, here's how they may approach you; be aware of that and be confident of yourself and make your own decisions" is different from what you are saying "be scared of all boys, none of them are to be trusted." Maybe you see it as "Potato, Pot-AH-to" but the latter is truly not my message; but then I talk to my own daughter for hours at a time, not in message board posts, so maybe I'm not making myself clear here...

 

Don't fight in front of the children.

Hah, indeed....

 

Angel - what do you think of all this?

Edited June 21, 2011 by Trimmer