Delusions

[carrie999]

I am spending my last official night with my ex-fiance, and it's really nice. Quick back story...I already moved into my new place (a state away) weeks ago, and we broke up months ago, but I've been staying with him while I'm working in town. We made the transition to friendship so easily, and it's unusual and a total blessing that we will hopefully be lifelong friends.

 

MM has deluded himself (he knows it's delusional, but still) into thinking there's a possibility that his divorce will go even half this well. He's been married seven years, but with her for twice as many. My ex and I were together for four years and friends long before that. We were engaged long enough for his parents to refer to themselves to me as "mom and dad," but we weren't married. It's still a bit awkward for us to be with eachother's families.

 

I am prepared for a bumpy road anyway, but more so because MM has the crazy idea that he can somehow minimize the damage (direct and collateral) that the divorce will do to so many people. They ARE family, and nobody from either side has even considered divorce in the worst situations (and there have been some monumentally bad stories). I am sure that if MM and I will end up together when all is said and done, we will have taken plenty of time apart, mostly for him to have space to figure out his own s&*t.

 

He intends to be with me, and leave her without destroying her. His intentions are good, but he knows as well as I do that this will probably explode. I just worry that (despite my admonishments) he believes there is any chance that this won't explode. It's going to be a disaster when he leaves. It would be amazing if they could someday, ten years from now, develop a healthy friendship, but there are thousands of steps to that point, and hundreds to the point where we'd have a chance at a real relationship.

 

Just my thoughts...on a night that makes me feel very happy with the decisions I've made, if not happy about the decisions that led me to this point.

[whichwayisup]

Yes he is delusional. Big time! He is going to have the crap knocked out of him in so many different directions and it's going to be an emotional rollercoaster ride of poop, so he better face the music and get prepared. Expect the worst, hope for the best.

[Tayla]

Hey Wisernow, can you transcribe it then for me? I was confused right along with ya.

 

Its actually possible to minimize the damage, its congruent on how he approaches the soon to be ex spouse and her maturity that its probably been over for awhile. I am in no way advocating the "situation" for which the OP is in, but am wise enough to know that divorce can be handled sanely if need be.

[carrie999]

Hey Wisernow, can you transcribe it then for me? I was confused right along with ya.

 

Its actually possible to minimize the damage, its congruent on how he approaches the soon to be ex spouse and her maturity that its probably been over for awhile. I am in no way advocating the "situation" for which the OP is in, but am wise enough to know that divorce can be handled sanely if need be.

 

WWIU, you're right. Wiser, you'll get the idea once you re-read my old delusions getting into this mess. And Tayla, I'll give more of the story. I was engaged and MM is married, but I've known him and his wife for years. The four of us became closer friends not long before MM and I started something, and eventually it became an affair. I immediately recognized that I couldn't marry my fiance as soon as I kissed MM. It's bad enough to be tempted or act in any way when you've been married for years, but I knew that just kissing someone else (with or without an ensuing affair) meant I wasn't ready to be married.

 

It took a long time to break up with my fiance for aformentioned reasons, and because I hoped I could do so without really hurting him. I never expected we'd stay friends, but we have. So yes, it's possible to end serious relationships amicably.

 

However, in MM's situation, his wife is extremely dependent on him, and probably wouldn't leave him even if DDay happened. She is a wonderful and very sweet and caring woman who has shown signs of strength, but only with his support...so far. I hope she has that strength within her. Whether or not I end it with him, he is going to leave her, and it's going to be messy.

 

This is definitely one of those cautionary tales about affairs, though I suppose you could argue that they all are cautionary tales. Someone (or all) will end up extremely hurt.

 

The only thing I'll argue, WWIU, is that I'll end up broken. I would have agreed with you at any point in the last year, but not now. I know I'm in the midst of a messy situation, but I still feel free. In my adult life, I have always lived with either a partner or a roommate. For the first time, I chose to move, picked a place, and was adamant about having my own space and building my own life. I'm focusing on myself more so than I ever have.

 

I don't know if this will make any sense to anyone, but while I'm not ending the affair and I love MM just as much as before, I feel slightly detached from him. Part of it is knowing that he's ending his marriage...not for me or "us," but because it's the right decision for him. But if he needs months or a year or two to figure himself out, I think that's wise, and that I can disconnect enough to give him that space. In my first few weeks in a new state, I've found a job and new friends who share my hobbies. I'm focusing on building my life apart from him and hoping that if it all works out in the end, he'll be part of it.

 

Still, I read this board a few times a week, and I know better than to have expectations of anyone but myself for now.

[Tayla]

Thank you for taking the time to clarify, it makes more sense now when you stated some info.

 

I sincerely wish you well in your new job and that your heart remains in tact. You seem like you are okay with things overall and doing right for your life choices.

[Silly_Girl]

Carrie, you'll be fine. MM might/might not be, and you and he may not make it but you'll be fine. I've enjoyed watching you widen your perspective and get wiser

 

You're right to be slightly detached from him, and more particularly his situation and the sorting out he needs to do. I agree that it will be harder than he thinks, but a bit of me wonders if rather than delusional it's a bit of bravado, something to keep him pedalling forward... is there a chance he's bricking it underneath?

 

He has his stuff to sort and it would do him no good for you to be embroiled in the minutae of that, and it would do you less good. It can be quite traumatic, seeing someone you love go through so much upheaval. And there's no use being angry for them, or upset for them, or whatever is going on. The support they need has to be at arm's length to a degree.

 

Good luck with this new phase of your life. Exciting!

[fooled once]

Hey Carrie! Sounds lke YOU are on the right path.

 

Has MM even discussed separating with his wife? Does she have any idea you and he are having an affair? Did your ex fiancé ever find out it was MM you were having an affair with? I would guess that if he knew, he would tell the wife, since you all became good friends.

 

Whatever happens, you will survive. I have a feeling MM may choose to not leave, but I think you will end of stringer than ever. Since you moved out of state, how often do you see MM?

[Got it]

Carrie, my situation was very similar except I was married as well. But we didn't have kids, both made/make good money, both apparently self sufficent so when we broken up it wasn't bad. There was definite sadness and a definite mourning period but with some counseling for both of it we came out friends and had a very amicable divorce.

 

MM did not at all. I actually had warned him about it but I don't think men think through emotional items as well as women and are as proactive on them. She was only working part time, had no interest in working full time, dependent on him financially and the way she treated him after finding out about her affair showed that his feelings were not an importance and she will hit him if she needed to. I warned him the worst thing to have happen is a dday as the whole focus of separating, etc will be on the affair and not the issues with the marriage. Well in discussion divorce, she found out about the affair and as I predicted that was the whole focus. And things got extremely bloody.

 

She had shown that the lifestyle was the primary importance for her and so she found hard to keep that. The divorce was successful because her lifestyle has been maintained adn she has done well financially. But there was no focus on any of the other issues in the marriage, she has now gone to lying about never having an affair ( alittle hard when family members knew because she told them), etc. She became the martyr and "there for the kids" even though she was throwing them in the middle all the time.

 

I would advise, based on my situation, he needs to be in therapy and work with the therapist to come up with the best game plan. Stay out of his life right now and let him get it figured out. You do not want to be involved at all. Trust me!

[26pointblue]

However, in MM's situation, his wife is extremely dependent on him, and probably wouldn't leave him even if DDay happened. She is a wonderful and very sweet and caring woman who has shown signs of strength, but only with his support...so far. I hope she has that strength within her. Whether or not I end it with him, he is going to leave her, and it's going to be messy.

 

Isn't this your friend you are talking about (MM's wife)? Wow, no offense but I would not like to have you as my 'friend.'

 

To the bolded part- I don't believe he's going to leave her. I would bet money he stays married to her. I'm glad you are detaching from him & not caring what the outcome on his end is but I think it is delusional of you to say he is going to leave her whether or not you end it with him! You have no way of knowing that & from everything I've read about him from your posts [i'm familiar with your story], I see that he is not going to leave.

 

I think you could do way better than him, he sounds wimpy. Just my take. Good luck.

[Carrot2000]

Isn't this your friend you are talking about (MM's wife)? Wow, no offense but I would not like to have you as my 'friend.'

 

To the bolded part- I don't believe he's going to leave her. I would bet money he stays married to her. I'm glad you are detaching from him & not caring what the outcome on his end is but I think it is delusional of you to say he is going to leave her whether or not you end it with him! You have no way of knowing that & from everything I've read about him from your posts [i'm familiar with your story], I see that he is not going to leave.

 

I think you could do way better than him, he sounds wimpy. Just my take. Good luck.

 

Wow, 26PB, are you reading my mind?

 

Carrie, be prepared for this man to flip-flop. The fact that he's exhibiting some serious delusions suggests that he is going to feel extremely guilty over destroying his wife. Being of noble character (not!), he will of course return to her, all the while professing his love for you and continuing the affair.

 

You think his wife is not strong? You're going to see a completely different side of her--and him--once she finds out her "friend" has been effin' her husband. Don't underestimate this woman or their history as a couple.

[carrie999]

Thank you everyone for your posts! Sorry for the delayed reply, but I spent the weekend...well, detaching some more and spending time with my nieces, and celebrating birthdays, and just focusing on my life aside from this affair.

 

SG, I think you are absolutely right that this will be traumatic all around, less so for me than for them, but still awful. FO, no, he has not discussed leaving her, and she doesn't know about the affair. My ex doesn't know the whole story and said he doesn't want to know unless I really need to lean on him. To me, this means that he's willing to be an infinitely better friend to me than I deserve, and I should spare his feelings. So I told him I'm feeling very conflicted and left it at that. The look in his eyes basically thanked me for respecting that if we are to talk about this at length, it should wait until he's moved on and is ready to hear more.

 

Got It, you're right. He needs help and I need to distance myself and not be involved in their breakup. His wife is very dependent on him, but differently from your MM's wife. She is very sweet and caring and not at all demanding, but relies upon him completely for emotional support. That's an entire story unto itself, but it's their problem, so I'll leave it at that unless anyone has questions about it.

 

26PB, I've read your posts and admired you tremendously. I wish I didn't come across to you as a total jerk, but you are right. She is my "friend," to some degree. Some trust has been built there, even if I never intended it. She's been a long-term acquaintance, and through my friendship (as perceived) with MM, and time I've spent with them both, I've become her friend almost by default. Affairs are crappy situations in any light, but it's definitely worse when you get to know the betrayed spouse and are accepted (even if warily) as a friend. Yes, I should RUN far away from this knowing her and that she is a lovely person. But the other side of this is that given how well I know them together, I see why it hasn't been working, and never will.

 

Carrot, I always appreciate your perspective as well, and you are echoing 26PB's POV. Yes, MM is behaving like a coward, and will probably flip-flop when they actually are separating or divorcing.

 

I'll keep updating intermittently here as things progress. I have no idea what is going to happen. The only two things I'm confident about at this point are: 1.) ultimately, MM is going to divorce his wife, whether it's a year or five years from now; and 2.) whatever the outcome, I will be okay. I hope that MM and I will end up together, but even more, I hope that he and his wife will be okay, whether or not I'm wrong about #1.

[26pointblue]

26PB, I've read your posts and admired you tremendously. I wish I didn't come across to you as a total jerk, but you are right. She is my "friend," to some degree. Some trust has been built there, even if I never intended it. She's been a long-term acquaintance, and through my friendship (as perceived) with MM, and time I've spent with them both, I've become her friend almost by default. Affairs are crappy situations in any light, but it's definitely worse when you get to know the betrayed spouse and are accepted (even if warily) as a friend. Yes, I should RUN far away from this knowing her and that she is a lovely person. But the other side of this is that given how well I know them together, I see why it hasn't been working, and never will.

 

I'll keep updating intermittently here as things progress. I have no idea what is going to happen. The only two things I'm confident about at this point are: 1.) ultimately, MM is going to divorce his wife, whether it's a year or five years from now; and 2.) whatever the outcome, I will be okay. I hope that MM and I will end up together, but even more, I hope that he and his wife will be okay, whether or not I'm wrong about #1.

 

Carrie,

 

I admire you in many ways & I think you are going to feel a lot of hurt & guilt for what you've done to your 'friend.' I think you are a good person who is seriously misguided & has done some horrible things/ made some horrible decisions. I can relate because I have done the same. I think you need to look at what it is within you that would allow yourself to do this to another woman, let alone one who considers you a friend, in part because you have allowed/encouraged her to do this with your participation with her husband. I am saying this to help you grow, not judge you, although yes, that is some horrible stuff to do. [i too have done horrible things.]

 

The bolded part-- again, you cannot possibly know this! You are probably deluding yourself that this is true. Most OWs are 'sure' their MMs are going to divorce their BSs, if now know then somewhere down the line, with our without us . . . it is part of our justification system & our coping mechanism. But it is very rarely true. You may think he is going to divorce her but you cannot possibly know this -- only time will tell & my wish for you is that you will be so far away from this whole mess & this MM & on your path to healing & really loving yourself & other people that if he ever does divorce her, you won't know or care because you'll be off living your life to the fullest, how it was meant to be lived.

[BB07]

Carrie,

 

I admire you in many ways & I think you are going to feel a lot of hurt & guilt for what you've done to your 'friend.' I think you are a good person who is seriously misguided & has done some horrible things/ made some horrible decisions. I can relate because I have done the same. I think you need to look at what it is within you that would allow yourself to do this to another woman, let alone one who considers you a friend, in part because you have allowed/encouraged her to do this with your participation with her husband. I am saying this to help you grow, not judge you, although yes, that is some horrible stuff to do. [i too have done horrible things.]

 

The bolded part-- again, you cannot possibly know this! You are probably deluding yourself that this is true. Most OWs are 'sure' their MMs are going to divorce their BSs, if now know then somewhere down the line, with our without us . . . it is part of our justification system & our coping mechanism. But it is very rarely true. You may think he is going to divorce her but you cannot possibly know this -- only time will tell & my wish for you is that you will be so far away from this whole mess & this MM & on your path to healing & really loving yourself & other people that if he ever does divorce her, you won't know or care because you'll be off living your life to the fullest, how it was meant to be lived.

 

Great post and I AGREE with every word of it and I just like 26point have done some things that I regret, many things I regret.

 

Carrie you might not understand this right now but down the road things have a way of coming back around and biting you hard, it's not pretty and it's very difficult to deal with. Forgiveness of myself has been the most difficult part of my healing.

[26pointblue]

Great post and I AGREE with every word of it and I just like 26point have done some things that I regret, many things I regret.

 

Carrie you might not understand this right now but down the road things have a way of coming back around and biting you hard, it's not pretty and it's very difficult to deal with. Forgiveness of myself has been the most difficult part of my healing.

 

Ditto.

 

There are things I cannot undo that make me part of who I am now.

 

Yuck.

 

That's a crappy thought to deal with but I try to balance it out by thinking, at least I'm not doing those things anymore. All we can do is move forward & live our best todays. Now dwell on the past. But I have had some time in my healing & at first I was a big mess with all the guilt & realizing I had done things to harm myself! That's what I can't wrap my head around . . . why I couldn't have been good to myself & I never would have felt all of that pain.

 

At least now I know from experience that hurting others hurts me, that I should never settle for less than I deserve [being an MM's secret, not having a full relationship, etc.] . . . but I think sadly these things sometimes have to be learned the hard way if they are going to be learned at all. At least that's how it was for me, but, people on LS helped show me things I hadn't thought about & warned me of things that could happen & for this I'm grateful. I still went about my path of self-destruction but I got closer & closer to realizing what I needed to do to get out of it & then doing it. So when I read OWs like Carrie who seem to be insightful & basically decent people who just want to figure out how they got here & what they should do now . . I feel compelled to help & share. Because that is what helped me the most. Someone once told me I don't sound like I needed LS to get out of my situation. Well, I sure did, big time!!!!!

[fooled once]

Thank you everyone for your posts! Sorry for the delayed reply, but I spent the weekend...well, detaching some more and spending time with my nieces, and celebrating birthdays, and just focusing on my life aside from this affair.

 

SG, I think you are absolutely right that this will be traumatic all around, less so for me than for them, but still awful. FO, no, he has not discussed leaving her, and she doesn't know about the affair. My ex doesn't know the whole story and said he doesn't want to know unless I really need to lean on him. To me, this means that he's willing to be an infinitely better friend to me than I deserve, and I should spare his feelings. So I told him I'm feeling very conflicted and left it at that. The look in his eyes basically thanked me for respecting that if we are to talk about this at length, it should wait until he's moved on and is ready to hear more.

 

Got It, you're right. He needs help and I need to distance myself and not be involved in their breakup. His wife is very dependent on him, but differently from your MM's wife. She is very sweet and caring and not at all demanding, but relies upon him completely for emotional support. That's an entire story unto itself, but it's their problem, so I'll leave it at that unless anyone has questions about it.

 

26PB, I've read your posts and admired you tremendously. I wish I didn't come across to you as a total jerk, but you are right. She is my "friend," to some degree. Some trust has been built there, even if I never intended it. She's been a long-term acquaintance, and through my friendship (as perceived) with MM, and time I've spent with them both, I've become her friend almost by default. Affairs are crappy situations in any light, but it's definitely worse when you get to know the betrayed spouse and are accepted (even if warily) as a friend. Yes, I should RUN far away from this knowing her and that she is a lovely person. But the other side of this is that given how well I know them together, I see why it hasn't been working, and never will.

 

Carrot, I always appreciate your perspective as well, and you are echoing 26PB's POV. Yes, MM is behaving like a coward, and will probably flip-flop when they actually are separating or divorcing.

 

I'll keep updating intermittently here as things progress. I have no idea what is going to happen. The only two things I'm confident about at this point are: 1.) ultimately, MM is going to divorce his wife, whether it's a year or five years from now; and 2.) whatever the outcome, I will be okay. I hope that MM and I will end up together, but even more, I hope that he and his wife will be okay, whether or not I'm wrong about #1.

 

Hon, you can't be SURE he is going to divorce. You can hope and dream it; but YOU can't be sure. I hope you are okay and I sincerely hope you move on with your life and meet someone who can meet YOUR needs.

 

I was a little taken aback by your comment about him being his wife's emotional support. FYI - that is called marriage. My husband is my emotional support. I have dealt with a lot of really crappy things the last 5 years (several surgeries which have left me with a permanent disability, which has made me at times look forward to death), death of a 3 year old relative, death of several close friends. I am so blessed to have my H to lean on and to support me emotionally. We also still have our parents alive, but we know in the next 5-10 years, we could lose all of them (due to health issues and age) and we know we have each other to lean on - emotionally. So to act like that is a 'negative', I completely disagree with. You just haven't had the joy of that experience which is why I think you make it sound like something 'bad'. I hope one day you do find that with someone who you don't have to be an OW with; in fact, while you are the OW, you won't find that because you are a hidden secret.

 

The fact that he hasn't told his wife speaks volumes....which is why I say you can't say you are POSITIVE that he is going to divorce.

 

Good luck to you.

[Got it]

Hon, you can't be SURE he is going to divorce. You can hope and dream it; but YOU can't be sure. I hope you are okay and I sincerely hope you move on with your life and meet someone who can meet YOUR needs.

 

I was a little taken aback by your comment about him being his wife's emotional support. FYI - that is called marriage. My husband is my emotional support. I have dealt with a lot of really crappy things the last 5 years (several surgeries which have left me with a permanent disability, which has made me at times look forward to death), death of a 3 year old relative, death of several close friends. I am so blessed to have my H to lean on and to support me emotionally. We also still have our parents alive, but we know in the next 5-10 years, we could lose all of them (due to health issues and age) and we know we have each other to lean on - emotionally. So to act like that is a 'negative', I completely disagree with. You just haven't had the joy of that experience which is why I think you make it sound like something 'bad'. I hope one day you do find that with someone who you don't have to be an OW with; in fact, while you are the OW, you won't find that because you are a hidden secret.

 

The fact that he hasn't told his wife speaks volumes....which is why I say you can't say you are POSITIVE that he is going to divorce.

 

Good luck to you.

 

Fooled - you misquoted her a bit. She said that he is his wife's complete emotional support. I had that too, my ex was emotional dependent to the level of unhealthy for both of us. I felt like I was drowning trying to keep him afloat emotionally. I am not saying this is the level the OP is indicating nor do I think one can imply your level of emotional support. Both are subjective based upon our personal experiences.

[carrie999]

Ditto.

 

There are things I cannot undo that make me part of who I am now.

 

Yuck.

 

That's a crappy thought to deal with but I try to balance it out by thinking, at least I'm not doing those things anymore. All we can do is move forward & live our best todays. Now dwell on the past. But I have had some time in my healing & at first I was a big mess with all the guilt & realizing I had done things to harm myself! That's what I can't wrap my head around . . . why I couldn't have been good to myself & I never would have felt all of that pain.

 

At least now I know from experience that hurting others hurts me, that I should never settle for less than I deserve [being an MM's secret, not having a full relationship, etc.] . . . but I think sadly these things sometimes have to be learned the hard way if they are going to be learned at all. At least that's how it was for me, but, people on LS helped show me things I hadn't thought about & warned me of things that could happen & for this I'm grateful. I still went about my path of self-destruction but I got closer & closer to realizing what I needed to do to get out of it & then doing it. So when I read OWs like Carrie who seem to be insightful & basically decent people who just want to figure out how they got here & what they should do now . . I feel compelled to help & share. Because that is what helped me the most. Someone once told me I don't sound like I needed LS to get out of my situation. Well, I sure did, big time!!!!!

 

26PB and BB07, you're both helping me immensely, as are others. I'm not out of this yet, and I still have hope that in the long run, things will somehow work with me & MM. But I know the odds are against us, and I want to make sure I'm not consumed with him. Thank you for your insight!

[carrie999]

Carrie, thanks for the nearly a year of entertainment by allowing us to watch your personal, slow motion train wreck...chug a chug a woo woo!

 

Very nice. I find it interesting that your source of entertainment is going on an anonymous internet message board that is meant as a source of support and constructive advice for people struggling in relationships of all kinds. Sounds to me like you're the type who watches reality TV, and spies on the neighbors and gossips, and when those options are either not acceptable or not enough drama, you troll the internet looking for more fodder to fuel your general dissatisfaction with your own life.

 

I'm here to seek support and advice and to lend an ear to others in my position. I feel much sorrier for those who are here to beat up on others than I do for those who are misguided and confused and honestly trying to work on themselves.

[carrie999]

Hon, you can't be SURE he is going to divorce. You can hope and dream it; but YOU can't be sure. I hope you are okay and I sincerely hope you move on with your life and meet someone who can meet YOUR needs.]

Thank you! I really appreciate your concern and kind words. I can't be sure, and I'm not relying on it. I'm concerned about his wife and him (separately), but I know I will be okay. Right now, he's all I want. I'm single, and alone right now. I have hope that it will work out for us, but only long after he's out of this marriage, and has time to sort out his own issues. Aside from our relationship, and even if it ends, I'm not looking to date anyone. I'm really ENJOYING being alone. I'll date when I'm ready for love, if I decide that's what I need and he's still not ready. Until then, I'm okay with this as is...I have moved on in that sense.

 

[I was a little taken aback by your comment about him being his wife's emotional support. FYI - that is called marriage. My husband is my emotional support. I have dealt with a lot of really crappy things the last 5 years (several surgeries which have left me with a permanent disability, which has made me at times look forward to death), death of a 3 year old relative, death of several close friends. I am so blessed to have my H to lean on and to support me emotionally. We also still have our parents alive, but we know in the next 5-10 years, we could lose all of them (due to health issues and age) and we know we have each other to lean on - emotionally. So to act like that is a 'negative', I completely disagree with. You just haven't had the joy of that experience which is why I think you make it sound like something 'bad'. I hope one day you do find that with someone who you don't have to be an OW with; in fact, while you are the OW, you won't find that because you are a hidden secret.]

 

The fact that he hasn't told his wife speaks volumes....which is why I say you can't say you are POSITIVE that he is going to divorce.

 

Good luck to you.

 

I'm very sorry for what you've gone through, and I agree that the number one role of a spouse IS to be emotional support and a best friend. This is not a negative; it's the very foundation of both friendship and marriage. Got it got it:

 

[Fooled - you misquoted her a bit. She said that he is his wife's complete emotional support. I had that too, my ex was emotional dependent to the level of unhealthy for both of us. I felt like I was drowning trying to keep him afloat emotionally. I am not saying this is the level the OP is indicating nor do I think one can imply your level of emotional support. Both are subjective based upon our personal experiences.]

 

This is it, exactly. He has never been able to lean on her. She hasn't gone through what you have, FO. She has "typical" family drama and dysfunction. It's typical "American family" dysfunction that could be made into a sitcom. Her dad is a sweet and abiding husband and father who kind of bumbles around and looks like an idiot the way everyone describes him (hence the poor sitcom portrayal bit), when he's just a nice man trying to retire with a wife who is increasingly neurotic. She drives him and BS's little sister crazy with her inconsistency, tendency to judge and criticize, etc. She belittles her husband, drives him nuts, and he just takes antidepressants and deals with it. Her sister is a twenty-something neurotic copy of her mother who creates the same drama, and they are constantly at odds...and her sister pulls s*&t like refusing to celebrate Mother's Day, celebrating Father's Day alone with her dad, and currently being a Bridezilla who storms out when they're all doing "bride" stuff because she doesn't like her mom's behavior. They put her in the middle of all of it, and instead of calling them out, she just gets annoyed and vents for an hour every day about it, then vents for another hour about her boring corporate job.

 

Way more detail than you need, but you get the idea. There are no MAJOR issues. He'd be fine with the two hours a day (of 3-4 they realistically have) of listening to her venting, but it's all she does. When he tries to bring up his problems, (more akin to your serious ones, FO), she bursts out in tears or says she can't handle it, and he ends up comforting her and assuring her that he'll be okay. And that kind of episode takes hours, so he finally gave up, because it was more stressful on him than just trying to work it out alone.

 

Finally, a few weeks (or months?) ago, she asked him what was up. He ended up spending hours talking to her about how he's struggling to deal with his family stuff and acknowledging he can't lean on her without blaming her, but telling her he really needed to talk about how much it's hurt him, and how much he's been changing fundamentally since it started. He went into everything, in a condensed version of the talks we've had since we became close. She listened and didn't fall apart, and just took it all in. He asked what she thought, and she said she's happy he has me to lean on because she doesn't know how to deal with any of it. She advised him to spend more time with me, and now she welcomes me to their home more than before this.

 

That night, she didn't cuddle with him in bed; she stayed (as they apparently do) on the opposite side. He's brought it up once or twice since, telling her he doesn't want to stress her out, but wants to be able to talk to her more honestly about it, and she's changed the subject to the minutia of her family battles and how irritating her mother and sister are. And I've seen it. Something important happened and he started opening up with both of us there. I listened, but gave her space to be the one who is there for him. I "took a phone call," which I pretended was important from my mom, and walked away...there was no call. I went somewhere else where I could observe them and hear them, and he talked for another minute before something he said "reminded her" of something else, and steered the conversation away from his problem.

 

I know I need to disengage (and have, to an extent) from them, but this is a pattern that has always been and never changed. Spouses being "emotional support" is mutual, not one-sided. Even if I move on, I hope to at least be okay with being his friend someday. He needs a friend like me. I need a friend like him. We're perfect together, and even if the logistics don't work out romantically, that is one thing that is very, very real.

[Carrot2000]

He asked what she thought, and she said she's happy he has me to lean on because she doesn't know how to deal with any of it. She advised him to spend more time with me, and now she welcomes me to their home more than before this.

 

Carrie, this must make you feel awful. This woman is unknowingly encouraging a "friendship" with the very person who is betraying her. You and MM are going to totally destroy this woman, and kill her ability to trust and love.

 

My heart literally hurts for her. No one deserves this kind of betrayal, no matter how emotionally needy they are. It's important for you to recognize that MM married her knowing of her neediness. Although he complains about it and may feel worn out by it, it serves some sort of purpose for him. Perhaps his self-esteem is low and needs to be needed. He's probably drawn to your independence, but in time he would probably feel threatened by it because if you're not needy, he has no purpose.

 

Rather than focusing on what's wrong in their marriage, please take a long, honest look at what's wrong with him. There's a lot more going on with this guy than you think, and I think once this all comes out you'll see the person he really is: a weak man who needs an even weaker woman to feel complete.