She's with him in a hotel in Europe right now!

[Asystole]

I've been reading this today, and it's a lot to take in. I fully expect to get flamed for some of what I'm about to say. Appologies ahead of time to those who have been cheated on, because I expect this may make you very angry.

 

Just to clarify, I have also been cheated on. But in my situation it was very different. There was honesty. When my guy cheated on me with his ex, I saw it coming, just as you see this coming. The strange behavior, the sketchy outings. But I let him do it. You see, humans are independant creatures. If he wants to do it, its honestly not my place to force his hand away. Lack of freedom is the most terrible thing in a relationship, it ruins the attraction to the other partner. It stifles your sense of self. It's not worth the devastation it brings. Even if that freedom means they do something you really really don't like, well... it is their life and you don't own it. Now, of course consequences for actions still apply.

 

He came and told me the very night it happened. He wasn't sorry he did it, but he was very sorry for what it did to me. Makes sense. Without explaining all his reasoning and other unnecessary details, I have to say... cheating doesn't make people evil. Most partners treat a cheating partner like the devil himself, and its just not fair. They have reasons for what they are doing. If they didn't feel they needed something desperately enough to ruin everything they've worked so hard for in their current relationship, they wouldn't be doing it. When it comes down to choosing your own needs over that of your partner's, how is it so difficult to understand that people choose to cheat?

 

 

At any rate, if you do choose to see your partner as a lying whore and a viscious heartless bitch.. you are doing your part to end the relationship. If that is what you want, so be it. But know that your viewpoint will be partly responsible for the ending. Try to see it from her p.o.v. You said you were having problems. Families are hard work, moms and dads both suffer a great deal in their efforts to hold up the delicate family structure. I'm not saying this behavior is forgivable, but is there no compassion in you for what may have caused her to stray? Just because you may feel like you'd never do this in a million years no matter what the situation, doesn't mean you can't understand that she may not be as strong as you in this area.

 

What I see is dishonesty is wreaking havoc on your relationship right now. You are sneaking around obsessing with catching her sneaking around. Refusing to speak to her. Its just horrible to watch. This alone is doing a good job of destroying what you have together. Not the cheating alone. I don't blame you for doing it, especially if you think she's not going to be honest with you. Personally, I have an extremely low tolerance for people who can't re-attach their balls and just tell the truth, male or female. I would be irate at the thought of her not owning up to it atleast. However, your show of concern should be enough to send an honest person into a state of upset. If she isn't showing that concern, its because she is justifying her actions in order to help her cope with what she is doing. In which case, intercourse having occured or not, it is as you feared. It doesn't really matter if she has sex with him or not at that point does it? You can't know how much she is struggling with it. How much she backs off, tries to give herself reality checks, tries to justify it.. Point is, she's in the zone. And people are right in saying she's trying to shift the blame onto you.

 

This does not make you a fool. To see it that way only will make you see red, and see things with a very ****ty, self-centered perspective. This will make you overreact, with crying or with anger. She may need space, she may be unhappy, whatever. She's not exactly playing you though, she's playing herself. Don't even think for a second that you are the only one who loses in this game, regardless of whether she sleeps with a guy and has a moment of enjoyment. It's kind of rediculous to begrudge someone their fun. Hey.. think about this.. she's earned it. She is probably losing you, and her family for the sake of it. Atleast let her have that pathetic consolation prize.

 

Making this a fight between 2 countries at war will simply lead to war. Trying to get a rise out of her or gutting her with angry childish games like withholding cards is simply a waste. You have a right to be angry, be angry. Let her know. No whining. She's done something that you both agreed wasn't acceptable.(sex or no, she's mentally already there) You both know it. Tell her so. Visiting a lawyer is smart to get your head straight and protect yourself also. But divorce papers as a slap in the face when she returns seems like too much to me. Be ready to do it at some point though. Don't let her turn this into a fault of yours. Sure, there are 2 people in this relationship. But that doesn't magically make you the only one at fault. She will push for that, because its the only way she can feel ok with what she's neck deep in already and may feel she's too emotionally far away to return to the way things were.

 

If she refuses to get honest with you about her feelings, then the relationship is already a mess regardless of eroneous facts. If she blames you only, arguments are futile. Then its simply a question of where to go once these things are realized.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Asystole

[Chi townD]

Okay, first off. No one deserves to be cheated on, not even you. I mean your husband told you he cheated but he wasn't sorry that he cheated? Just sorry for what it might have done to you. And you're okay with that?

 

Sorry, but in my opinion, a marriage between two people means something. Forming a bond that shouldn't be broken. The act of having sex with someone else is very painful, but (again, my opinion) breaking a vow that you made to someone, a promise to foresake ALL OTHERS for you, and only you means and hurts even more in the end.

 

It's like you're asking him to be sorry for her for straying. Like, everything is his fault. Sorry, it isn't his fault. He didn't ask for this behavior from his wife.

[Asystole]

Okay, first off. No one deserves to be cheated on, not even you. I mean your husband told you he cheated but he wasn't sorry that he cheated? Just sorry for what it might have done to you. And you're okay with that?

 

Sorry, but in my opinion, a marriage between two people means something. Forming a bond that shouldn't be broken. The act of having sex with someone else is very painful, but (again, my opinion) breaking a vow that you made to someone, a promise to foresake ALL OTHERS for you, and only you means and hurts even more in the end.

 

It's like you're asking him to be sorry for her for straying. Like, everything is his fault. Sorry, it isn't his fault. He didn't ask for this behavior from his wife.

 

In no way what so ever, am I saying its his fault. But victimizing him isn't going to help him either. Just like she's trying to victimize herself, and we can all see how skewed her perspective is...

 

I wasn't married, and I personally don't feel that vows are all that great of an idea. I know.. I don't expect anyone to understand that. But to me, a promise I can't necessarily keep, is a promise I should never have made. Yet we are all quite certain that the promise is required for a relationship to be 'official'. And that for humans its 'natural'.

 

When he told me, he was genuinely sorry. Its not easy to convey these things over text. You'll just have to take my word for it. There was indeed a recovery process. While I was very upset at the time, I learned from it. It really wasn't all that devastating to my life in the long term, in fact, it helped me see and change my judgement on cheating in general. My self esteem plummeted for a bit, but then ended up higher. I had to question many of my assumptions. If that doesn't tell you something about how well we did, I don't know what will. It may be very pertinent to add that we had been in a sort of open relationship at times, certain things were at our discretion. So the sex obviously wasn't as big an issue for me, as it might be for you.

[Chi townD]

Okay..Yeah, but not everyone wants to be in an open relationship or is into the "swinging" lifestyle and certainly the OP didn't sign up for his wife to be cheating on him in Europe.

 

If you say we're treating him like a victim...well, because he IS a victim of his wife's infidelities. You're right. I guess I do have a higher regard for sex between two people. But, I have an even higher regard for love, trust and loyalty. Which, in this case, is safe to assume that the OP wife has a total disregard for.

 

Now I'm not saying the PO is some sort of saint; he can be blamed and he should take ownership to 50% of the problems that are in the marriage. But, his wife is to blame for 100% of her affairs. That's on her.

[soulm8]

Yes, I still love her, I'm just feeling bured and crapped on. We've had our ups and downs but always were able to reconcile and move on. The previous wandering was right at the beginning of our relationship almost 20 years ago, we'd only dated for few weeks when she went off to Europe to study French (how ironic). We kept in touch during that time but as I recall drifted apart as long distance relationships do and months after I stumbled on the postcards and diary to learn that she had brief flings with 3 or 4 guys she met in her travels. yes, the precedent is there. Shi*t.

 

*That* was almost 20 years ago, when you were dating... has she cheated since you exchanged vows? Have there been any other questionable behaviors/circumstances in the previous year or so? Does she help with the finances or is she the homemaker/mother?

 

I've read through your thread and first of all, I'm so sorry you're going through this hell. Please DO NOT confront her without FACTS. Please refrain, as others have suggested, from showing emotion (of ANY kind) at this time.

 

It's just my opinion, but cutting off all communication at this time is not in your best interest. She might involve the children and your suspicions will be drawn out before you're ready. I agree that her actions and words are suspicious but the mind can zone in on things and "show" us what we "want" to see... if that makes sense.

 

Are you able to contact the phone carrier and request a usage detail? Please take advantage of this time to gather any evidence.

 

You asked for a female perspective on what she may be thinking... here's my 2 cents:

 

- If she's unhappy, she is in justified mode aka I need a break from the reality of my *****ty existence. I'm entitled to this break and if I have the opportunity to get some male attention while I'm away - my husband could never prove it. (just trying to think like her based on how you've portrayed her to us)

 

- If she's happy but burned out and evaluating your marriage... she may very well be focused on having a good time with her sister and your suspicions could backfire without facts.

 

Please continue to put your children first and take care of yourself. Keep us posted as we're here to support you.

[thesignsareallthere]

I havn't mentioned this before but my wife has suffered from depression on and off for years, maybe even borderline personality disorder? - a lost soul who often laments being lonely and not understood by me. She goes from high to low and they're high highs and low lows. She's tried most of the major SSRI,s, currently on Zoloft I think. I had a conversation with a highly recommended psychologist today who listened intently for 30 minutes then zeroed in on my wife's mental state and the possibility that this may well be an effort to escape her life and revive the happy go lucky memories of being in Europe unattached and free to do as she pleased nearly 20 years ago.

 

She also pointed out that, for my wife, sadly, it may be fun on the surface but underneath she's in a living hell trying to understand what she's done and what price she'll pay. She suggested that I do re-initiate communication if only to let my wife know that I continue to be unhappy with her decision to abandon her family for so long, have been inconsolable and so haven't communicated and leave the affair discussion for when she gets back. For me to make the allegation without real proof from afar can only end badly - either she'll admit it which will clear the air but make for a painful two weeks or much more likely deny it, get hostile and defensive, maybe even decide she's got nothing to loose and maybe will push it further and take full advantage of the choices on offer on the cruise. Better to have the conversation face to face.

 

For the record, mine is not an "open marriage" and never will be. As for future prognosis, the psychologist, somewhat depressingly, suggested that for my wife, because of her underlying depression, she'd probably do much worse separated and/or divorced. More optimistically, (and I need to take a deep breath as I write this because my thinking has begun to shift) she said I would likely emerge happier if we parted ways, at least during the times when I'm not dealing with my wife. Point is, borderline personality disorder is very hard to treat and tends to be there always. In addition to working full time, I maintain the outside yard (10,000 square feet), have the usual guy jobs - repair everything that breaks including vehicle, plus I have to vacuum & do bathrooms every other week and god help me if I go to work and the kitchen is not tidied up and spotless from the night before. Oh and did I mention I take the kids to perhaps 80% of their sports and other activities after work and on weekends. Food for thought

[Pianiste]

I do feel for you, one of my friends is a borderliner and the high highs and low lows are very recognizable. Being very impulsive at moments is also a trait of borderline, not that it makes up for the fact she went to Europe of course.

 

I really don't see why you won't confront her now. Its almost like you are allowing her to go through with her plans.

 

The reason you don't want to confront her yet is because he doesn't have enough proof. If she goes defensive mode who knows what might happen. I agree with the psychologist that you should continue to let her know you are not happy about the way she left her family behind and fled to Europe. Plus, she's already in Europe so there are not many plans to block, just wait for her to come back.

[Lucky_One]

Signs, have you ever cheated on her, or are you involved with someone else now? You keep putting out more details that almost make it sound as though a divorce is imperative, that you want a divorce.

[thesignsareallthere]

Signs, have you ever cheated on her, or are you involved with someone else now? You keep putting out more details that almost make it sound as though a divorce is imperative, that you want a divorce.

 

Up to now, no I have almost never been in the headspace where I wanted a divorce. I've been frustrated for a long time, but in nearly all the heated arguments with my wife it will be she who brings up the prospect of divorce and me who redirects to try to make it work. This blog is maybe the first time in my life I've been able to explore the idea for real and the experience of the past week has pushed me to cross that line.

 

Maybe like my wife I'm taking the opportunity of her being away to explore deeply whether I want to stay together. My biggest fears are the stigma of failure, the damage to my kids and the pain that will come to my wife who as I say I still love.

 

When my wife went on the now infamous Europear tour in the early nineties after we had just met and been together 6 weeks, I met up once with my ex girlfriend for a week but it was effectivley a confirmation it would never work and we parted ways forever. Though I'd have to admit, that girl was the one who got away and it took me a number of years to get over her.

[scarlett27]

if it was me i would email the bloke - and pretend to be ur wife , i would also email the bloke and other bloked ( make up some emails ) and send them all the standard i am not getting on with my husband etc , leave it a few hours then email and say sorry about that i sent the wrong email all them other men are nothing tome , thus making the slimeball think ur wife is a slimeball too ( which by the way she is ) failing that call the hotel and ask to speak to the man slimeball and tell him she has a std

[thesignsareallthere]

My fear with the call is that my emotions kick in and I blurt out what I know I don't want to say. My judgement right now is admittedly poor - I've put my foot in my mouth at work and socially this week no doubt due to my domestic distractions. Email wise - here's a rough draft. Sending the right message?

 

XXXXXXXX,

 

I've done a lot of thinking about our relationship over the past few days. Your decision to go to Europe and in particular to extend it by more than a week, when our son is in emotional turmoil, our own relationship is in trouble I'm working full time speaks volumes to me about how much you're suffering inside and want to escape your life. You chose <sister> and her needs as well as your own pursuit of pleasure and escape over those of your own family. I asked you to come home and you told me it's not convenient and not to call your cell phone except in a dire emergency. The reaction I've received from virtually every person I've told about your trip has been the same. First they are shocked, and then they offer to help me out in any way they can. I have taken up a few of their offers. Some have even commented that it's a terribly selfish thing to do including our own doctor.

 

We've struggled for a long time and I'm sure you'd agree we've reached a turning point where a major change in the way we conduct our lives is inevitable. You're a fine mother but a less fine wife and I'm an awesome father but evidentally not the man or husband you desire. My decision to end communication with you was and is to send you a message that it's no longer business as usual between us - we need to begin the painful journey of redefining our relationship in a way that is first and foremost, in the interests of <child a> and <child b>. I've done my level best to ensure that you are able to stay in contact with them on a regular basis through email and calls - they need a mother who is there for them and I hope you'll never turn your back on them again the way you've just done. (Today you missed xxxx performing songs at the elementary graduation) If what you're doing now doesn't eat at your insides and make you sick to your stomach then I really don't know you well at all. I have lost nearly 15 pounds and have taken several days off of work, so if your intention was to hurt me, congratulations, you've succeeded.

 

I made a vow to stay faithful to you through good times and bad and I've kept my word. You're my wife. I love you and I'm truly sorry that we have come to this point. Our next conversation can only be face to face and it won't look much like the sketch you made of yourself on the calendar arriving home with arms wide open. We can't know what our future holds but it's certainly going to be different. Enjoy the rest of your vacation.

 

***********************

 

not yet sent - comments please?

[soulm8]

My fear with the call is that my emotions kick in and I blurt out what I know I don't want to say. My judgement right now is admittedly poor - I've put my foot in my mouth at work and socially this week no doubt due to my domestic distractions. Email wise - here's a rough draft. Sending the right message?

 

XXXXXXXX,

 

I've done a lot of thinking about our relationship over the past few days. Your decision to go to Europe and in particular to extend it by more than a week, when our son is in emotional turmoil, our own relationship is in trouble I'm working full time speaks volumes to me about how much you're suffering inside and want to escape your life. You chose <sister> and her needs as well as your own pursuit of pleasure and escape over those of your own family. I asked you to come home and you told me it's not convenient and not to call your cell phone except in a dire emergency. The reaction I've received from virtually every person I've told about your trip has been the same. First they are shocked, and then they offer to help me out in any way they can. I have taken up a few of their offers. Some have even commented that it's a terribly selfish thing to do including our own doctor.

 

We've struggled for a long time and I'm sure you'd agree we've reached a turning point where a major change in the way we conduct our lives is inevitable. You're a fine mother but a less fine wife and I'm an awesome father but evidentally not the man or husband you desire. My decision to end communication with you was and is to send you a message that it's no longer business as usual between us - we need to begin the painful journey of redefining our relationship in a way that is first and foremost, in the interests of <child a> and <child b>. I've done my level best to ensure that you are able to stay in contact with them on a regular basis through email and calls - they need a mother who is there for them and I hope you'll never turn your back on them again the way you've just done. (Today you missed xxxx performing songs at the elementary graduation) If what you're doing now doesn't eat at your insides and make you sick to your stomach then I really don't know you well at all. I have lost nearly 15 pounds and have taken several days off of work, so if your intention was to hurt me, congratulations, you've succeeded.

 

I made a vow to stay faithful to you through good times and bad and I've kept my word. You're my wife. I love you and I'm truly sorry that we have come to this point. Our next conversation can only be face to face and it won't look much like the sketch you made of yourself on the calendar arriving home with arms wide open. We can't know what our future holds but it's certainly going to be different. Enjoy the rest of your vacation.

 

***********************

 

not yet sent - comments please?

 

No matter what feedback you get here, I sincerely hope you do not send this. I've bolded the points that really should not be divulged yet... they either need to be kept to yourself or shared face to face.

[scarlett27]

dont give her teh satisfaction that she has hurt you best of luck xx

[Asystole]

Now I'm not saying the PO is some sort of saint; he can be blamed and he should take ownership to 50% of the problems that are in the marriage. But, his wife is to blame for 100% of her affairs. That's on her.

 

I agree with you on this point completely.

 

I didn't mention open marriage and only explained my own story for the sake of perspective, not advice. Maybe I was unclear, but I have no intention of saying the OP should be in an open marriage or anyone else for that matter.

 

She also pointed out that, for my wife, sadly, it may be fun on the surface but underneath she's in a living hell trying to understand what she's done and what price she'll pay. She suggested that I do re-initiate communication if only to let my wife know that I continue to be unhappy with her decision to abandon her family for so long, have been inconsolable and so haven't communicated and leave the affair discussion for when she gets back. For me to make the allegation without real proof from afar can only end badly - either she'll admit it which will clear the air but make for a painful two weeks or much more likely deny it, get hostile and defensive, maybe even decide she's got nothing to loose and maybe will push it further and take full advantage of the choices on offer on the cruise. Better to have the conversation face to face.

 

What your counselor has said is great advice. Maybe I simply didn't do anywhere near as good a job trying to explain the empathy available for her situation. I would continue to consult her closely on the communication and letters you choose to send. It is good that you are coming to a turning point in your own idea of what you want, divorce or otherwise. I imagine you've been spending all your time worried about her and doing damage control up until now. Deciding what YOU want is a very good thing.

 

Send the letter to your counselor, she knows you both best and can help with what to say.

[Lucky_One]

I am sure you think that I am totally picking on you for this entire thread, but don't you really think that conversations like this are meant for in person, and NOT for an email?

 

I just erased a really long reply; the things I am thinking aren't going to go over well on your thread. This is one of the cases where I really wish we could hear the other side of the marriage, as well as one from a neutral third party.

 

I wish you the best of luck.

[Darren Steez]

Honestly..

[thesignsareallthere]

I've heard that we ask for advice to confirm what we already know. Maybe true for simple things but in this case I'm in uncharted waters and taking it one one step at a time not really knowing where the end will lead. The counsellor who focused on my wife's mental state has never met or spoken with my wife and myself before yesterday but she does know of my wife's condition because my mom has on a couple of occasions turned to the counsellor for advice on resolve past conflicts between herself and my wife. Conflict usually routed in the age old mother daughter thing and I've made a concious effort to err on the side of my wife. The the advice from the counsellor is about as close as I can offer as a neutral third party. As for my wife's take, given that there really is no communication of substance between us and showing her this blog would be like dropping Napalm on our marriage, it's just not feasible. It works because of the anonymity I think.

 

I'll take the above advice and adopt pretty much all the suggestions made for triming back on the email to bare bones. Sounds like the less said the better and it makes sense to me. I"ll just say, I'm unhappy, we need to talk face to face and leave it at that. First version was written last night - sent it to myself and decided to sleep on it - intuitively I know it wasn't right but writing it down helped.

 

For the next few days I'm going to pur my energies into cleaning up the house and de-hoarding. Did I mention that every drawer, cupboard, closet and storage space is exploding with stuff. She'll be pissed because her systems are disrupted, but with a cleaner, tidier, simpler living environment maybe the ground is getting set for either a re-juvenation or a disengagement. Helps getting a two week headstart and keeps my mind off the images in my mind of her $**>ing another guy.

[bikinibeach]

extremely bad idea to send that email. good luck to you

[whammy]

In no way what so ever, am I saying its his fault. But victimizing him isn't going to help him either. Just like she's trying to victimize herself, and we can all see how skewed her perspective is...

 

I wasn't married, and I personally don't feel that vows are all that great of an idea. I know.. I don't expect anyone to understand that. But to me, a promise I can't necessarily keep, is a promise I should never have made. Yet we are all quite certain that the promise is required for a relationship to be 'official'. And that for humans its 'natural'.

 

When he told me, he was genuinely sorry. Its not easy to convey these things over text. You'll just have to take my word for it. There was indeed a recovery process. While I was very upset at the time, I learned from it. It really wasn't all that devastating to my life in the long term, in fact, it helped me see and change my judgement on cheating in general. My self esteem plummeted for a bit, but then ended up higher. I had to question many of my assumptions. If that doesn't tell you something about how well we did, I don't know what will. It may be very pertinent to add that we had been in a sort of open relationship at times, certain things were at our discretion. So the sex obviously wasn't as big an issue for me, as it might be for you.

 

 

I actually see alot about him that would make me understand why his wife wants out/ somebody else... I actually tried to give him advice on how to act so that his wife might see him as a man that his wife actually wants and respects.

Edited June 25, 2011 by whammy

[thesignsareallthere]

So the wife called and my daughter handed me the phone and after a few minutes of uncomfortable chatting and my telling her how disappointing it was that she had gone on the trip I asked her who is XXXXXX and why did you forward your private hotel information to him? She was silent and stumbled for about 2 or 3 minutes saying she didn't do it, then said,

 

"Oh yes, I needed to provide a printed version of my hotwire reservation to the hotel front desk and the easiest way was to forward it to the guy working there because the front desk printer was broken, so he could print it from his local printer - the girl at the front desk was Jazzy etc, etc..."

 

She was very convincing, but a quick phone call to the hotel should confirm whether or not the guy works there.

 

Of course the ensuing conversation quickly devolved into a litany of complaints about me - that I don't do enough around the house, don't know her well, am paranoid and overly suspicious (proof in the pudding here I guess). I'll call the hotel later tonight, see if said Moroccan works there and if yes, phew, at least there's not an affair to deal with. If not, then all bets are off.

 

If the story checks out, perhaps I should fly to Europe for few weeks for some R&R once my wife returns.

[scarlett27]

when u say medical condition , is she bi polar by any chance ?

[Bryanp]

Why would she stumble for 2 to 3 minutes saying she did not do it and then come up with a convincing story of why sent it a few minutes later? I trust your wife was trying to stall you for a couple of minutes to come up with a story. If the story was true why would she have not said it immediately instead of originally saying she did not send it. It does not make sense.

[jnj express]

You saying enjoy the rest of your trip, may come back to haunt you

 

She is gonna be a week on a cruise ship, with lots of available men, and an atmosphere conducive to one thing---lovemaking

 

Problem is you will never know!!!!!!!

[P&R]

You saying enjoy the rest of your trip, may come back to haunt you

 

She is gonna be a week on a cruise ship, with lots of available men, and an atmosphere conducive to one thing---lovemaking

 

Problem is you will never know!!!!!!!

What's done is done, life is too short for regrets.

[rafallus]

So the wife called and my daughter handed me the phone and after a few minutes of uncomfortable chatting and my telling her how disappointing it was that she had gone on the trip I asked her who is XXXXXX and why did you forward your private hotel information to him? She was silent and stumbled for about 2 or 3 minutes saying she didn't do it, then said,

 

Of course the ensuing conversation quickly devolved into a litany of complaints about me - that I don't do enough around the house, don't know her well, am paranoid and overly suspicious (proof in the pudding here I guess). I'll call the hotel later tonight, see if said Moroccan works there and if yes, phew, at least there's not an affair to deal with. If not, then all bets are off.

 

If I were to bet on whether she's lying or not, I'd bet on she's lying through her teeth.