BS reaction to marital issues

[carrie999]

Kind of an addendum but very separate thought from my most recent thread, so I figured I'd make a new post. I was reading Cabin's thread about her observations of MM/BS during a dinner party, and I started thinking about what the betrayed spouse does when it's clear something is wrong. In her case, MM already started talking about divorce. In my case, he hasn't.

 

Quick background (my story isn't so important here because the question isn't about my situation, but wondering about others): MM has been married for 7 years and with BS since high school. Their marital issues run deep, and stem from getting married for the wrong reasons. No babies, but they both had family issues and were expected to move home after college because their very traditional families believe you don't move out until you're married or at least 30.

 

So they married amidst relationship issues neither acknowledged to one another...more issues than I'll get into here, but the crux was/is poor communication and sex. MM finally brought up a few years ago (more than a year before he cheated on her with me) that he couldn't lean on her and that he felt constantly rejected and unwanted by her sexually. She didn't do anything about the former, but did try to ask for sex more often. This meant bimonthly to monthly.

 

I've satisfied both needs. She clearly knows something is up, since he just plain stopped *needing* support or intimacy. He talked to her at length about how he has changed fundamentally over the years (long before me) due to a family crisis, and how his views on everything, including how previously steadfast religious beliefs and how he sees his life playing out have all changed. She listened, but never brought it up again.

 

Her response has to become more physically clingy. She used to go to bed hours earlier than him, but now she stays up late with him, even if it means falling asleep on the other end of the couch while he stays up reading. She shows interest in sex maybe twice a month now, and seems relieved when he says he's not in the mood. She's not pulling a 180...to me, it seems like she is putting forth any effort into the things he said were bothering him...and as long as she tries (missing his original point, maybe), she thinks she is salvaging the marriage.

 

Any OW/OM or BS want to weigh in? I'm curious about how BS (or anyone with a marriage clearly in jeopardy) thinks and how they react, and if they think it's enough to save the relationship.

[MissBee]

If he doesn't want her he should tell her to stop wasting her time "trying"....

 

If he wants to ultimately divorce regardless of if she changes...then he should save her her dignity and not make her jump through hoops for no reason.

 

Is he trying to stay IF she "gets it together"?

 

If not, what's the point of the charade?

 

In any relationship, married or not, if you don't want the person to leave and they're unhappy, the tendency is to put in extra effort. However, it takes 2 and if the other person has mentally and emotionally "checked out" then nothing you do will make a difference as you can't do it alone. Which is why I think that it makes no sense to allow someone to continue to try to impress you and bend over for you when you don't want them....

[OldOnTheInside]

It has nothing to do with being a BS...

 

If a person realises their marriage may soon be over and they wish to sustain it, for whatever reason, then they will attempt to rectify their mistakes. Whether they do it in the long-term or the short-term is a case-by-case deal. Evidently, your MM's wife realises what she may lose and doesn't wish to lose it. As for whether she believes it is enough or not...well, you would have to ask her.

 

to me, it seems like she is putting forth any effort into the things he said were bothering him...and as long as she tries (missing his original point, maybe), she thinks she is salvaging the marriage.

Unless you are a mind reader, it would be illogical for you to make assumptions about her. If you haven't communicated with her personally, or been in her position, you quite simply, just won't know.

 

IMO it is quite tasteless for your MM to waste both his and his wife's time like that. Life's too short.

Edited June 21, 2011 by OldOnTheInside

[woinlove]

It has nothing to do with being a BS...

 

If a person realises their marriage may soon be over and they wish to sustain it, for whatever reason, then they will attempt to rectify their mistakes. Whether they do it in the long-term or the short-term is a case-by-case deal. Evidently, your MM's wife realises what she may lose and doesn't wish to lose it. As for whether she believes it is enough or not...well, you would have to ask her.

 

Unless you are a mind reader, it would be illogical for you to make assumptions about her. If you haven't communicated with her personally, or been in her position, you quite simply, just won't know.

 

IMO it is quite tasteless for your MM to waste both his and his wife's time like that. Life's too short.

 

I agree with this description of how one would typically respond to a threat to a marriage they want to sustain.

 

I would say this is beyond tasteless. Tasteless you can forget about next week. This is something you will carry with you for a long time, perhaps forever. We have several current threads of APs talking about how MM/MW's spouse is reacting to an affair they don't know about. The BS is acting in the dark and is not pulling the strings here. Are you worried about the type of man MM is becoming as he spends longer and longer deceiving his W day in and day out?

 

The sad thread of an OW mourning from afar her MM who died with leukemia makes me wonder what your MM would do if he knew he only had at best a year to live. Would he live it with his W, with you mourning from afar, or would he leave his W and go to his true love, you? If the former, then the man is making a mistake by not spending his days loving his W and taking joy in his life with her. If the latter, he is making a mistake not biting the bullet and living authentically. Hopefully he is and will remain in good health, but it does sound like he is wasting some years of his life and that of his W, all while becoming the person he is going to be whether he acknowledges it or not.

[phillyfan]

Kind of an addendum but very separate thought from my most recent thread, so I figured I'd make a new post. I was reading Cabin's thread about her observations of MM/BS during a dinner party, and I started thinking about what the betrayed spouse does when it's clear something is wrong. In her case, MM already started talking about divorce. In my case, he hasn't.

 

Quick background (my story isn't so important here because the question isn't about my situation, but wondering about others): MM has been married for 7 years and with BS since high school. Their marital issues run deep, and stem from getting married for the wrong reasons. No babies, but they both had family issues and were expected to move home after college because their very traditional families believe you don't move out until you're married or at least 30.

 

So they married amidst relationship issues neither acknowledged to one another...more issues than I'll get into here, but the crux was/is poor communication and sex. MM finally brought up a few years ago (more than a year before he cheated on her with me) that he couldn't lean on her and that he felt constantly rejected and unwanted by her sexually. She didn't do anything about the former, but did try to ask for sex more often. This meant bimonthly to monthly.

 

I've satisfied both needs. She clearly knows something is up, since he just plain stopped *needing* support or intimacy. He talked to her at length about how he has changed fundamentally over the years (long before me) due to a family crisis, and how his views on everything, including how previously steadfast religious beliefs and how he sees his life playing out have all changed. She listened, but never brought it up again.

 

Her response has to become more physically clingy. She used to go to bed hours earlier than him, but now she stays up late with him, even if it means falling asleep on the other end of the couch while he stays up reading. She shows interest in sex maybe twice a month now, and seems relieved when he says he's not in the mood. She's not pulling a 180...to me, it seems like she is putting forth any effort into the things he said were bothering him...and as long as she tries (missing his original point, maybe), she thinks she is salvaging the marriage.

 

Any OW/OM or BS want to weigh in? I'm curious about how BS (or anyone with a marriage clearly in jeopardy) thinks and how they react, and if they think it's enough to save the relationship.

 

Yea dude, it means u belive anythin the married guy tells u. Hav more pride girl, he is playin u BIG TIME. Also a wife cant be 'clingy' by stayin on the courch wit him in the evenins...THIS IS WHAT MARRIED PPL DO.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

You've mention the issues of unmet needs he brought up to the BS and her attempts to rectify. What changes has he made in order to meet her needs and is it enough to save their relationship?

[bentnotbroken]

So much supposition about the wife.

[Owl]

And...I'm also curious about the source of your information on their marital problems?

 

You've described a situation that's apparently been ongoing for years before the A started...but what I'm curious about is where you got the information?

 

From him? From her? From your own personal observations?

 

How did you verify that the information is accurate, and not biased by the provider?

[bentnotbroken]

And...I'm also curious about the source of your information on their marital problems?

 

You've described a situation that's apparently been ongoing for years before the A started...but what I'm curious about is where you got the information?

 

From him? From her? From your own personal observations?

 

How did you verify that the information is accurate, and not biased by the provider?

 

 

The only way you will get anything near the truth is to go to the source...the wife. But, you aren't going to ask her questions are you?

[whichwayisup]

I was reading Cabin's thread about her observations of MM/BS during a dinner party,

 

When we do BBQ's with the neighbours, or friends and family, party's etc I rarely sit next to my H, let alone talk to him a whole lot...Obviously not ALL the time, but some of the time. I guess I could be judged and that some might think that we are not "close" because we didn't 'connect' much during the evening.

 

One never ever knows what goes on behind closed doors in the home of a married couple. There is a dynamic, it works for them and from the outside it *may* seem not normal or looks like they aren't close, where actually it's the complete opposite.

[OldOnTheInside]

I would say this is beyond tasteless.

 

Well, I was going to use another word.

 

Anyway, one curious trend I have noticed on this board, is the large amount of assumptions that some APs will make about their MP's partner.

 

There is a large difference between thinking that you know, and knowing that you know. The former can lead you astray.

 

That is why I hold the words of those that have been in multiple positions of the affair dynamic highly...they have practical experience.

[MissBee]

I agree with this description of how one would typically respond to a threat to a marriage they want to sustain.

 

I would say this is beyond tasteless. Tasteless you can forget about next week. This is something you will carry with you for a long time, perhaps forever. We have several current threads of APs talking about how MM/MW's spouse is reacting to an affair they don't know about. The BS is acting in the dark and is not pulling the strings here. Are you worried about the type of man MM is becoming as he spends longer and longer deceiving his W day in and day out?

 

The sad thread of an OW mourning from afar her MM who died with leukemia makes me wonder what your MM would do if he knew he only had at best a year to live. Would he live it with his W, with you mourning from afar, or would he leave his W and go to his true love, you? If the former, then the man is making a mistake by not spending his days loving his W and taking joy in his life with her. If the latter, he is making a mistake not biting the bullet and living authentically. Hopefully he is and will remain in good health, but it does sound like he is wasting some years of his life and that of his W, all while becoming the person he is going to be whether he acknowledges it or not.

 

When I was in such a scenario, serious concerns like that plagued me and forced me to give it up as the more you consider such serious matters, the harder it is to live in dream land, building sand castles in the sky. I would also ask my guy at the time and see what his responses were...which told me a lot! What he says, how he says it as well as what he DOESN'T say tells quite a lot about the reality, not to mention actions speak foremost.

It is all fine and well for a taken man to be with you when it's sunshine and puppies BUT are you the one he will be with when shyt goes down? Are you the one he will spend his dying days with if God forbid that were to happen? Are you the one he will call if he is on his hospital bed? Will he leave his wife and family to be there for you if you become gravely ill?

 

I think every OW who is seriously considering being committed to a MM should consider not only the rosy aspects of life but consider the possibly frigged up scenarios that can arise and what their own response would be and ask what the MM's response will be. Listening to one's intuition and gut reaction is also priceless as your knee jerk response to the questions and what you think he will do...is probably spot on! That is a way to be grounded and to be able to more realistically see whether or not your situation is infact "so unique" or really not that great of a deal, but a piece of swamp land you bought thinking it was going to be prime real estate.

Edited June 21, 2011 by MissBee

[jwi71]

Kind of an addendum but very separate thought from my most recent thread, so I figured I'd make a new post. I was reading Cabin's thread about her observations of MM/BS during a dinner party, and I started thinking about what the betrayed spouse does when it's clear something is wrong. In her case, MM already started talking about divorce. In my case, he hasn't.

 

Quick background (my story isn't so important here because the question isn't about my situation, but wondering about others): MM has been married for 7 years and with BS since high school. Their marital issues run deep, and stem from getting married for the wrong reasons. No babies, but they both had family issues and were expected to move home after college because their very traditional families believe you don't move out until you're married or at least 30.

 

So they married amidst relationship issues neither acknowledged to one another...more issues than I'll get into here, but the crux was/is poor communication and sex. MM finally brought up a few years ago (more than a year before he cheated on her with me) that he couldn't lean on her and that he felt constantly rejected and unwanted by her sexually. She didn't do anything about the former, but did try to ask for sex more often. This meant bimonthly to monthly.

 

I've satisfied both needs. She clearly knows something is up, since he just plain stopped *needing* support or intimacy. He talked to her at length about how he has changed fundamentally over the years (long before me) due to a family crisis, and how his views on everything, including how previously steadfast religious beliefs and how he sees his life playing out have all changed. She listened, but never brought it up again.

 

Her response has to become more physically clingy. She used to go to bed hours earlier than him, but now she stays up late with him, even if it means falling asleep on the other end of the couch while he stays up reading. She shows interest in sex maybe twice a month now, and seems relieved when he says he's not in the mood. She's not pulling a 180...to me, it seems like she is putting forth any effort into the things he said were bothering him...and as long as she tries (missing his original point, maybe), she thinks she is salvaging the marriage.

 

Any OW/OM or BS want to weigh in? I'm curious about how BS (or anyone with a marriage clearly in jeopardy) thinks and how they react, and if they think it's enough to save the relationship.

 

More self-denial and delusions.

 

You open by saying this isn't about your situation and then proceed with four paragraphs of YOUR situation.

 

Then conclude with what we think his W will do/say/think.

 

No one knows...not even the W because the W DOESN"T KNOW of the 1) A and 2) a D is coming (supposedly)

 

I distinctly remember you saying you would "step back" and let him sort it out. You aren't doing very well in that regards so lets just drop the pretense and admit this is consuming more of your energy than you want to admit.

 

Worrying and wondering and asking and all the other bullsh_t you are doing accomplishes nothing. Correction, accomplishes nothing constructive.

 

He will continue to act in his own best interest and that clearly means not telling her he is leaving. This isn't rocket science. Its actually quite simple.

 

He says to her "I want a D because ...". Simple.

 

He ISN'T doing that because he doesn't want to. Simple. There is NO reason, I can see, to delay. There is no way his W receives this piece of news well. Nobody would. There is NO perfect time. There NEVER is.

 

He isn't sparing HER feelings. His sparing his own.

 

Anyways...to answer your question about the why's...

 

She acts that way because she is SCARED. Again, simple.

 

My .02 if its worth even that.

[fooled once]

I agree with jwl.

 

He has every opportunity to tell her he wants to separate or divorce and he doesn't.

 

How come you are just so SURE he is leaving her.....one day?

[carrie999]

If he doesn't want her he should tell her to stop wasting her time "trying"....

 

I couldn't agree more. I've always believed this on a fundamental level, yet I've never just left anyone when I knew it was over, and that was true going back to the first time I ended a relationship. My first serious boyfriend broke up with me out of nowhere. Even looking back, I can't see any signs that he was unhappy. Turns out later, he wasn't. He was just a kid overwhelmed by being so close to someone at 17...and we ended up back together as adults.

 

Still, that hurt so deeply that I never just ended something I knew was over. I always allowed a few weeks (or even months) to make it obvious that it wasn't working, so that when it finally ended it was no surprise. Maybe it sounds like a poor way to end things, but I am actually friends with (almost) all of the guys I once dated seriously.

 

I agree wholeheartedly that it's unfair to let someone try so hard when you know it's over already. For me, it was always a very fine line. I wanted them to see it was not working out, but not to the point that they actually had hope that their actions could make any difference. I just wanted them to be prepared it to end, because I was once completely blindsided by a breakup that felt so sudden.

[carrie999]

I agree with jwl.

 

He has every opportunity to tell her he wants to separate or divorce and he doesn't.

 

How come you are just so SURE he is leaving her.....one day?

 

There is no perfect time to mention you want a divorce, or you want to break up with your fiance. I am SURE he's leaving her, but not necessarily on a timetable that would mean I'd end up with him in the end.

 

As I mentioned in my "Delusions" thread, he thinks he can end this amicably. I am fairly certain he can't, and constantly reminding him of that isn't helping him to actually end it. If he's a total jerk, he'll string her along for years. But I do believe he is trying to mimic my actions, since they ended in me & my ex-fiance remaining friends.

 

He spent so many years in denial, and kept successfully convincing himself that they would have the life he planned very young. It started with kids. When they married, they planned to have them in five years. That came and went, and he started having frequent conversations about it. She was so reticent that he finally just said he wanted to decide one way or the other. She didn't. Only in the past year did he decide that they wouldn't be good parents together. That was okay because he figured they could just travel and be a good uncle/aunt.

 

As time went on, he started seeing how incompatible they were. He didn't decide until the holidays last fall that their relationship wouldn't last. He admitted it to himself (and me), but I don't think he was ready to grasp it. They've been together since childhood, and he was so set in his plans (and loving her, if not romantically anymore) that he couldn't accept it. Nobody in his family divorces. He's a guy who knew what he would do when he grew up at the age of eight, and made it happen. His plans never fell through, until he finally made up his mind that he could not stay married to her anymore. He's giving her time to process the inevitable. Again, I might be long gone when it happens, but he's leaving.

 

And I know all of you who asked me how much I *really* know about them don't want to hear this, because it makes it that much worse, but I *do* know. I'm around them a lot. Even without hearing either side of the story, I witness their day-to-day interactions more than any of their closest friends and family. I have been distancing myself from him in some ways, and I need to distance myself from them as a couple, but as this has been happening, I've witnessed more than I did when my own parents' marriage was dissolving.

[White Flower]

And...I'm also curious about the source of your information on their marital problems?

 

You've described a situation that's apparently been ongoing for years before the A started...but what I'm curious about is where you got the information?

 

From him? From her? From your own personal observations?

 

How did you verify that the information is accurate, and not biased by the provider?

It doesn't really matter if it's the truth. Her question may or may not be based on the specifics of her own story; even if she's given a hypothetical situation attached with a question, why can't we just answer the question based on that hypothesis?

[OldOnTheInside]

It doesn't really matter if it's the truth. Her question may or may not be based on the specifics of her own story; even if she's given a hypothetical situation attached with a question, why can't we just answer the question based on that hypothesis?

 

 

It doesn't really matter if it's the truth? This is kind of an important situation, with some pretty severe potential consequences. Can't just go in there with nothing but hypotheticals. It just isn't the same as tangible evidence.

 

And I know all of you who asked me how much I *really* know about them don't want to hear this, because it makes it that much worse, but I *do* know. I'm around them a lot. Even without hearing either side of the story, I witness their day-to-day interactions more than any of their closest friends and family. I have been distancing myself from him in some ways, and I need to distance myself from them as a couple, but as this has been happening, I've witnessed more than I did when my own parents' marriage was dissolving.

In any case, carrie does have some idea of what she is talking about, so she has an advantage over many other people who end up in this situation. And she has some semblance of a plan too.

 

Dunno how long carrie is willing to play the waiting game though.

[Silly_Girl]

Dunno how long carrie is willing to play the waiting game though.

 

I don't feel she is. I had a period where I was. Then a period where I wasn't. Carrie doesn't sound like she's relying on him to leave.

[OldOnTheInside]

I don't feel she is. I had a period where I was. Then a period where I wasn't. Carrie doesn't sound like she's relying on him to leave.

 

Well, she is still technically waiting on some level.

 

But there is a difference between the more emotionally guided waiting, and the more pragmatic form of waiting. IMO carrie is the latter now.

[Spark1111]

Kind of an addendum but very separate thought from my most recent thread, so I figured I'd make a new post. I was reading Cabin's thread about her observations of MM/BS during a dinner party, and I started thinking about what the betrayed spouse does when it's clear something is wrong. In her case, MM already started talking about divorce. In my case, he hasn't.

 

Quick background (my story isn't so important here because the question isn't about my situation, but wondering about others): MM has been married for 7 years and with BS since high school. Their marital issues run deep, and stem from getting married for the wrong reasons. No babies, but they both had family issues and were expected to move home after college because their very traditional families believe you don't move out until you're married or at least 30.

 

So they married amidst relationship issues neither acknowledged to one another...more issues than I'll get into here, but the crux was/is poor communication and sex. MM finally brought up a few years ago (more than a year before he cheated on her with me) that he couldn't lean on her and that he felt constantly rejected and unwanted by her sexually. She didn't do anything about the former, but did try to ask for sex more often. This meant bimonthly to monthly.

 

I've satisfied both needs. She clearly knows something is up, since he just plain stopped *needing* support or intimacy. He talked to her at length about how he has changed fundamentally over the years (long before me) due to a family crisis, and how his views on everything, including how previously steadfast religious beliefs and how he sees his life playing out have all changed. She listened, but never brought it up again.

 

Her response has to become more physically clingy. She used to go to bed hours earlier than him, but now she stays up late with him, even if it means falling asleep on the other end of the couch while he stays up reading. She shows interest in sex maybe twice a month now, and seems relieved when he says he's not in the mood. She's not pulling a 180...to me, it seems like she is putting forth any effort into the things he said were bothering him...and as long as she tries (missing his original point, maybe), she thinks she is salvaging the marriage.

 

Any OW/OM or BS want to weigh in? I'm curious about how BS (or anyone with a marriage clearly in jeopardy) thinks and how they react, and if they think it's enough to save the relationship.

 

Hmmm...fBS here and I find it amazing as what is not discussed in relationships.

 

He is talking around his unhappiness, not direct or exact, not giving her concrete directions as to what his true needs are....just some vague unhappiness.

 

So she is doing what she thinks she hears he needs, but is missing the mark because he has not told her directly what it is he needs.

 

And how is he doing meeting her emotional and physical needs? Is he trying his hardest to make her happy?

 

Of course not. So she knows something is wrong but is uneasy and insecure about it.

 

Does she know of you? Why, of course not.

 

It is impossible to improve a relationship when you are emotionally and physically invested into another relationship.

 

I use to stare at my husband and wonder where he went. Nothing I did or said made him happy. He was a million miles away and I wondered who this stranger sitting in my living room was. So I and our children tried even harder to make him smile, make him happy. Did he perceive that as clingy? Maybe he did.

 

We were walking on eggshells around Ghost Man, thinking he would snap out of it. He created the emotional distance, way before he crashed into her, because he blamed us for his unhappiness.

 

I've always been a straight shooter. He, unfortunately, less so. He had the affair. He didn't have to. I would have separated gladly than to go through his unexpressed happiness projected onto us.

[26pointblue]

And I know all of you who asked me how much I *really* know about them don't want to hear this, because it makes it that much worse, but I *do* know. I'm around them a lot. Even without hearing either side of the story, I witness their day-to-day interactions more than any of their closest friends and family. I have been distancing myself from him in some ways, and I need to distance myself from them as a couple, but as this has been happening, I've witnessed more than I did when my own parents' marriage was dissolving.

 

Carrie,

 

This is really not healthy.

 

Plus it doesn't mean you know how they are together when it's just him & her. It only means you see them as a couple in public, & maybe that sometimes you see what he wants you to see.

 

Why are you wasting your time & mental energy on this guy who hasn't found the cajones to tell his wife he wants a divorce? Is it really that worth it?

[carrie999]

First of all, thank you WF for recognizing that I'm posting based upon what I know, and SG for understanding that I'm not "waiting" for him. I'm starting my own life over in many ways, which doesn't mean leaving him, but doesn't mean I'm relying on him to be there.

 

Hmmm...fBS here and I find it amazing as what is not discussed in relationships.

 

He is talking around his unhappiness, not direct or exact, not giving her concrete directions as to what his true needs are....just some vague unhappiness.

 

So she is doing what she thinks she hears he needs, but is missing the mark because he has not told her directly what it is he needs.

 

And how is he doing meeting her emotional and physical needs? Is he trying his hardest to make her happy?

 

Of course not. So she knows something is wrong but is uneasy and insecure about it.

 

Does she know of you? Why, of course not.

 

It is impossible to improve a relationship when you are emotionally and physically invested into another relationship.

 

I use to stare at my husband and wonder where he went. Nothing I did or said made him happy. He was a million miles away and I wondered who this stranger sitting in my living room was. So I and our children tried even harder to make him smile, make him happy. Did he perceive that as clingy? Maybe he did.

 

We were walking on eggshells around Ghost Man, thinking he would snap out of it. He created the emotional distance, way before he crashed into her, because he blamed us for his unhappiness.

 

I've always been a straight shooter. He, unfortunately, less so. He had the affair. He didn't have to. I would have separated gladly than to go through his unexpressed happiness projected onto us.

 

Spark, thanks for your response. Perhaps I wasn't clear. MM has addressed very directly the two major needs that she wasn't meeting, over the course of the last few years. I discussed here how she did respond to the physical needs to a degree, but not appreciably. It may be different for everyone, but in a marriage that hasn't lasted eight years (young couple in their twenties with no children), I think at least one partner would be dissatisfied with intimacy only happening 6-12 times per year. Even doubling that means 1-2 times per month. And as he has pointed out, even then, it's about quality, not quantity. Now that she's trying, there is still no passion behind it...it's (again avoiding details) just servicing him to keep the peace. Prior to him pointing it out, he tried to figure out if she just didn't like sex much, but needed other forms of intimacy to make her happy. She didn't respond much to that, either.

 

In terms of emotional needs, they aren't being met, either. After bringing it up a few times, he sat down and talked with her a while back about how he doesn't blame her, but she hasn't been there for him. He talked about how much he's changed on an almost fundamental level in the last few years, largely due to his family problems and questioning everything he's ever known. She listened, didn't respond, and never brought it up again. She actually said that she's glad he has me as a friend to lean on, and left it at that.

 

As far as her needs go, trust me, he's done his best to meet them. I saw them as a couple when things were status quo. He was (as he is with me) desperate to please. She is the type who needs to unload and vent. I've experienced it. I'm not close to her, but if I ask how things are going, she goes on for an hour unless interrupted.

 

Beyond just meeting her day-to-day needs from a relationship, he was always a romantic. (That part ceased when he admitted the marriage was not going to work). He'd bring home champagne and cook a nice meal on a random weekday, or rent a movie he knew she talked about wanting to see, or do any spontaneous little thing to make her smile. I KNOW I'm technically seeing one side of this, but this behavior wasn't something he pointed out, but something I saw before we were together or I ever imagined even being interested in him.

 

Yes, he may be a Ghost Man to her now, but in this case, it's due to alienated affection long before he gave up and just stopped trying altogether.

 

I'm really sorry for what you and your kids have experienced. I'm sure your situation is incredibly different. It's impossible to compare the two.

 

I know that on this forum, OW/OM may bash the BS and talk about how they are mean and uncaring and lazy and...awful. I know that affairs are the betraying spouse's fault, not the betrayed. But I also know that in this case, he tried everything until he couldn't try anymore. She's been faithful and sweet and has held up her end of the bargain in terms of maintaining the household. But he can't lean on her for emotional support, and their passion is nonexistent. The passion was the one part he was willing to sacrifice for an otherwise healthy marriage, but without passion, all they have left is that she is a good partner/roommate.

[carrie999]

Carrie,

 

This is really not healthy.

 

Plus it doesn't mean you know how they are together when it's just him & her. It only means you see them as a couple in public, & maybe that sometimes you see what he wants you to see.

 

Why are you wasting your time & mental energy on this guy who hasn't found the cajones to tell his wife he wants a divorce? Is it really that worth it?

 

26PB, of course this is not healthy, but not necessarily for the reasons you're implying. It's unhealthy that I know them both so well that she invites me to be part of their lives more intimately than her own sister. By that I mean that when I show up, she wouldn't bother cleaning up or changing out of pajamas or trying to be a host...and she's comfortable dressing him down in front of me when he annoys her. I actually think that even if she's jealous of our friendship and his attention to me, she still regards me as just his friend, and since I'm a woman, she feels that much more okay with letting it all out in front of me.

 

I see them in a light that nobody else can. No, I don't see them alone together when nobody is around. But I see them the way I saw my sister and her husband in the month that I lived with them. He'd walk out in the morning grumbling about my sister asking him to make coffee, she'd snipe at him for forgetting to do XYZ, etc. Short of living in the house as a fly on the wall, I get 99% of the picture.

 

I don't see this as a waste of time or mental energy, not yet. Right now, I DO see it as a situation from which I need to back away from slowly. At this point, I'm not worried about myself. I know the risks. I will be devastated if it doesn't work out, but I would be more so if this was a "normal" relationship and he chose to leave. I fully understand that he may either a) stay with her (almost not a risk), b) completely freak out when his marriage ends and run away from all romantic involvement, c) turn out to be a total jerk who cheats on us both with an AAP (odds almost nonexistent), or d) need more time than I'm willing to give him because I finally decide I'm ready to move on, which is the most likely of the situations that would split us up for good.

 

I just ended my engagement a few months ago, and just moved out last month. I'm enjoying being single, even though I'm romantically involved with him. If he and his wife signed divorce papers in six months, I'd still want another year beyond that to have my *own* place. I'd want him to have that, too.

 

In the best of circumstances, where they broke up soon, and we became a "real" couple, I'd want him to take as much time as he needed to re-learn being alone. Aside from a college dorm, he's never lived alone, and in college he always had roommates and a steady girlfriend (her) that took up all of his spare time. He's never been totally independent, and he needs to enjoy that before deciding it's worth sacrificing some independence to be with me or anyone else again.