don't love wife but feel sorry for her and can't leave

[londonR]

My name is Matt and and I have been married to Emma for 4 years now (been together for 12 yrs, we have a 1yr old baby.

Basically, I don't think I love my wife, but I can't leave because she falls to pieces when I try telling her i'm unhappy and want a divorce. She says she loves me and that im her 'entire world' - which makes me feel incredibly guilty and I can't bare to see her so distressed.

 

The reason why i'm now looking at divorce is that the worse case scenario is that I'd still probably feel the same way in a few yrs time and our child would be old to be aware of what is happening. And this has given me the impetus to be more decisive now.

 

 

At first, She didn't seem as fiery, and I just hoped that things would be better in the future.

Over the years I've just accepted her moods and tried to avoid confrontation (anything for a quiet life).

 

Now I've made her take me seriously (by saying I want out), she's finally doing something about it - stress therapy (hypnotherapy).

 

However, after going through so much, I'm not sure if i can go back and start to love her again (as it feels like its been a long time since i've been in love).

Even though she's a calmer person - I still don't like her touching me - it feels so wrong, all the chemistry has gone. It's like my sub-conscious mind (or my heart) has decided that going back is a 'no-go area'.

 

Over the years I think i've just been tolerating her most of the time and not really loving her. I think I loved her in the beginning (before I realised the full extent of her moods) I didn't realise she was such a fiery person with a very short fuse. If I had more confidence and experience back then I would have seen this coming and stood up for myself and nipped the relationship in the bud.

 

Now i'm older - i finally realise that I can't relate or warm to a 'fiery' person, it's just not in my nature. Even if a fiery person had a so called 'good week' - it doesn't matter, they'd still be the same fiery person and someone whom I could never warm towards. They'd still have the same personality which I don't like or love.

 

I know, I may shun love in this relationship. I know there are things that I could do to be more loving, but I can't because it doesn't feel right for me, I cannot love a fiery person, i'd just be living a lie.

 

I'm not a naive idealist - I'm not looking for a soul mate, I just want to be with someone calm and who I can have a conversation with and not feel like im treading on egg shells all the time.

 

Should I follow my heart?

Or

Hang in there and hope I'll feel different in the future?

(we've tried marriage counselling in the past and it made a small change to the relationship, but it couldn't make me love her any more, and won't make me love her any more in the future).

[OldOnTheInside]

She's making an attempt to change herself right? I would've recommended that you left her if she wasn't, but she is making some effort from what you have said.

 

IMO you should still do the same.

 

But life is too short. I would advocate that you set a particular date and if you are still extremely unhappy by then...there is no shame in leaving her. It is unfair for both you and her.

[Kivu]

How ****ing sad is that? No, really. One year old baby, four year marriage, and you're just planning to leave because you don't like that your wife is "fiery". She's probably fiery because she has a one year old and a husband who's tepid about the relationship. If I were in her position I would be bloody furious.

 

Where is your concern for your baby? I know you say you don't want to leave because the baby might get feelings for you -- where are your feelings for your baby? What's even sadder is that I don't even know the baby's name, or its sex, or anything. That baby's going to grow up with a hole in its life where you are supposed to be, and trust me, that screws a person up sometimes. And you don't even seem to care.

 

Man up, put on your big boy trousers, take responsibility for your CHILD.

 

Christ - I feel so lucky that I have my dad sometimes

[giotto]

How ****ing sad is that? No, really. One year old baby, four year marriage, and you're just planning to leave because you don't like that your wife is "fiery". She's probably fiery because she has a one year old and a husband who's tepid about the relationship. If I were in her position I would be bloody furious.

 

Where is your concern for your baby? I know you say you don't want to leave because the baby might get feelings for you -- where are your feelings for your baby? What's even sadder is that I don't even know the baby's name, or its sex, or anything. That baby's going to grow up with a hole in its life where you are supposed to be, and trust me, that screws a person up sometimes. And you don't even seem to care.

 

Man up, put on your big boy trousers, take responsibility for your CHILD.

 

Christ - I feel so lucky that I have my dad sometimes

 

So you are asking him to be unhappy for the rest of his life? What kind of good is going to do to him, his wife, his boy and his marriage? Do you want the little boy to grow up in a very unhappy family? And learn from that? He can still support his child by being an involved parent. It doesn't have to be a "hole in his life".

 

What I don't understand is why having a child now, when it was clear you didn't love her. Maybe thought it might fix things? Or maybe it was an accident?

[Truly_asia]

I will read more...

[londonR]

Kivu,

You misunderstand me. I will always be there for my daughter. I will insist on seeing her no matter what. I would even be happy to be the main carer. I will be happy to care for here whenever her mother needs me to do so - even if it means me working part-time. I will support her financially too - above the legal requirement - there is no problem with my commitment to my daughter.

[londonR]

FURTHER INFO:

 

* HOW WE MET

I was in a library doing some work and she chatted me up (first time any girl had done this to me and I was flattered), being a shy man I naturally let nature take it's course. If a woman was in my shoes, wouldn't she do the same?

 

* If I was 'man enough' in the beginning - I would have left her fairly quickly from the first warning sign, but due to my forgiving nature; I did not penalize her, instead I was very understanding.

 

* first day we got together (officially), she tells me she has a brain tumor (but luckily it turned out to be only benign). - would a real man have left her then?

 

* then it's nearly xmas - and her moods are down to the fact she lost her dad near xmas when she was a child (25 yrs ago). - Would a real man have left her then?

 

* Then her moods are because she is living at home and said things would be better if we had our own place (so we rent our own place and guess what - no change).

 

* Then she's stressed because we don't own our own home etc - so we then get a mortgage and buy our own home - and guess what no change.

 

* Then she starts dreaming of a big wedding (which we can't afford) so I eventually agree to a vegas wedding (yep, I took the easy way out here - I'm guilty of this crime.

 

But you get the picture, there's always been doubt there but I've supported my partner for a decade and tried to give here the benefit of the doubt every time.

I've allowed myself to be manipulated and now (thanks to some self help books - mostly written by women ironically) I'm finding the strength to stand up for myself and I'm 'manning up'.

 

It's made me realize a few things about myself:

I've probably never really loved her - but not had the courage to say so.

I've reached the stage where I believe it's not physically possible for me to love her.

There is no chemistry.

In fact, she makes me cringe (probably due to resentment).

I think she deserves better, she deserves someone who can love her what she is.

She deserves someone who is more suited to her.

I know she's trying, but i've had to reach breaking point to find the strength to own up to my true feelings.

She thinks I'm the only person in the world for her (this is not true).

 

* As for our child: worse case scenario would be to still feel this way in a few years time and to split up when our child is old enough to know what's happening and witness the arguments.

This is one unhappy household and think our child would be better with 2 'happy households' - hopefully.

 

* I know I mentioned 'soul mate' but this is just an expression. I would actually rather be single and celibate than be in this situation. I believe I could be happy with almost woman - If I ever looked for someone else I'd only really stipulate that they should be someone whom I can have a normal conversation with without getting uptight / wound-up / irate all the time etc.

[OldOnTheInside]

I've probably never really loved her - but not had the courage to say so.

You should probably go with the divorce route. Sounds like she is a codependent anyway.

 

But still, nice job getting her pregnant beforehand.

[ron1]

Hi Matt.

 

I suggest you to have a look at those 3 videos of tony robbins before you decide anything.

 

Probably your wife first issue - before you met:

http://robbinsmadanescoachtraining.com/?p=812

 

this will let you understand the pattern that you probably leveloped:

[COLOR=#3b5998]http://www.robbinsmadanestraining.com/lindseysmartview.html[/COLOR]

 

this can help you understand how to change it fast (you will need facebook to see this one):

[COLOR=#3b5998]https://apps.facebook.com/robbinsmadanes/#access_token=151094041629784%7C2.AQC1YkMQhv6NnO44.3600.1308369600.1-1069517074%7C7S4F8zD9kLtQT_K-lLvX_4RM7xo&expires_in=5922[/COLOR]

 

This can affect your life. and as you told you went in to the self help secsion, this can change your life and way of thinking.

 

and for the moderator - this is not a promosion!!!

you deleted my old account for this post - it help people so what is the point of deliting this message???

 

Good luck.

[Zoe B]

Hi, matt.

 

I know how you feel. Ive been dating someone the last 4 years and recently she seems to always be in a horrible mood. Never happy about anything, dosent laugh much anymore, shows no sense of apprication when i do cute and romantic things for her. This has killed our sex life and pretty much any sense of enjoyment now. Best thing to do is leave. Im sure your a great father and care for both child and wife unconditionally, but relationships are 2 way streets and people shouldnt forget how to act around each other, even when youve close for so many years. So give it a deadline and see if theres change in her with therapy, but believe me, if it dosent work, then call it quits. id say really take not of how you treat your child now and try and gain as much evidence as far as how great of a parent you are, because trust me, when you leave, she is not going to want you to see your child out of resentment.

 

Best of luck,

[ron1]

Hi, matt.

 

I know how you feel. Ive been dating someone the last 4 years and recently she seems to always be in a horrible mood. Never happy about anything, dosent laugh much anymore, shows no sense of apprication when i do cute and romantic things for her. This has killed our sex life and pretty much any sense of enjoyment now. Best thing to do is leave. Im sure your a great father and care for both child and wife unconditionally, but relationships are 2 way streets and people shouldnt forget how to act around each other, even when youve close for so many years. So give it a deadline and see if theres change in her with therapy, but believe me, if it dosent work, then call it quits. id say really take not of how you treat your child now and try and gain as much evidence as far as how great of a parent you are, because trust me, when you leave, she is not going to want you to see your child out of resentment.

 

Best of luck,

 

 

Zoe - Please look at the 3rd video link i published up here.

This will allow you to understand this situation.

 

make a dedline can get the partner to something called a Double bind, what actually make things worce.

 

A doublebind is when lets say you tell your partner that you love her and want to be with her, but in the other hand give her oltimatum and tell her if X wont happen, im off ale leave you...

 

This will place her in lose lose situasion - she cant satisfy you (as the problem did not solved) and cant make you stay... so she will enter a reactive mode...

 

looking on the 3rd film will show you the vicious cycle this thing crate and the way you can change it.

 

Know this - anger and partner that snap at you (especially females) comes from 2 things:

A deep hert and a ned for love.

 

If you give ultimatums in this situasion, you will make things worse.

Give her love and attension and try to understand what makes her so much hurt, and she will stop this anger attacks and give you love and appreciation instead.

 

Good luck.

Edited June 24, 2011 by ron1

[Downtown]

I think I loved her ...before I realized the full extent of her moods... I didn't realize she was such a fiery person with a very short fuse. ... I've just accepted her moods and tried to avoid confrontation.

Matt, you are not describing a "moody" woman but, rather, one whose anger is "event triggered." Because the anger has been there right under the surface (carried from early childhood), you do not have to do anything to actually create it. This is why, in ten seconds, she can erupt into an outpouring of anger. All you have to do is trigger it with an idle comment or minor infraction. This behavior is more accurately described as "hissy fits" and "temper tantrums," the same behavior you see in a four year old who is not getting her way. It is a big mistake to think of it as a "mood change."

 

True mood changes or mood swings are caused by an illness like bipoloar disorder. In contrast, the childish temper tantrums you are describing are usually produced by mild-to-strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). There are several clear differences between the two disorders. First, bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In sharp contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in one week -- or even one day. BPD rages, for example, typically last about 5 hours and rarely as long as 36 hours (if the BPD sufferer is inner-directed, you will not witness a raging screaming person but, instead, a quiet withdrawn person who punishes you with icy withdrawal and passive-aggressive remarks).

 

A second difference is that the onset is very different. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build over several weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action.

 

A third difference is that, whereas bipolar can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness you see when a BPD is splitting you black. The difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPD person can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly.

 

Finally, a fourth difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if she knows you well. Untreated BPDs, however, are unable to trust you for an extended period -- even though they sometimes may claim otherwise. This lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when a person does not trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time.

I just want to be with someone calm and who I can have a conversation with and not feel like im treading on egg shells all the time.

A lot of us feel the same way. This is why the best-selling BPD book (targeted to the partners and spouses of BPDers) is called Stop Walking on Eggshells.

She says she loves me and that im her 'entire world."

A typical BPDer (person with strong BPD traits) will blame every misfortune on her spouse and verbally abuse him -- yet, she cannot stand the thought of his abandoning her. A BPDer has a tremendous fear of abandonment, usually due to genetics and to abuse or abandonment in early childhood -- as occurred to your W when her dad died while she was very young. A BPDer also has a tremendous fear of the engulfment experienced during intimacy -- which is why your best weekends and most intimate evenings with a BPDer will be quickly followed by an argument she creates -- over nothing -- to push you away. Yet, as you back off to give her breathing space, within a few days or weeks you will trigger her other fear: abandonment. The result is a cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back that is a hallmark of having strong BPD traits. This is why the second-best-selling BPD book is called I Hate You, Don't Leave Me.

Now I've made her take me seriously (by saying I want out), she's finally doing something about it - stress therapy (hypnotherapy). ...we've tried marriage counseling in the past and it made a small change to the relationship.

If your W has mild to strong BPD traits, MC is unlikely to be useful until she has addressed her underlying issues. Sadly, it is rare for a high functioning BPDer to be willing to remain in therapy long enough to make a difference.

 

If you would like to read an overview of what it is like to live with a BPDer, I suggest you look at my discussion in GreenEyedRebel's thread. My four posts there start at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3398735#post3398735. If that discussion rings a bell and you have any questions about BPD, I would be glad to try to answer them or point you to a good online resource that can. Take care, Matt.

[londonR]

Thanks for all the posts.

Ron1 - interesting links (i think we both might have been in the crazy 8 loop at some point) - I'm a T Robins fan, got 'Awaken the giant within'. Read half of it and gave it to the wife, but think she's struggling with it - probably due to a BPD trait as 'Downtown' has mentioned.

 

Thanks Downtown, an amazing post.

 

You're right I was over generalizing the problem as Emma being 'moody'.

 

It's a lot to take in for now, but you've hit the nail on the head with a lot things there. I've read some of your other posts and sounds like you've had raw deal too.

 

These certainly are 'event driven' tantrums and I'm now doing more non-rewarding actions so as not to make things worse.

 

I've known of some of the wife's history of problems for a while but probably not put the pieces together like this before.

 

My wife's father died when she was 6 and was on Life support for a while (my wife blamed her mother - thinking she switched it off too early and then didn't see her grieve). She became closer to her grandmother than her mother - until she died shortly after - a double whammy.

And to make matters worse - from what i've seen of her mother - she doesn't cope well with stress and seems to give in easily on certain situations if Emma gets angry enough - anything for a quiet life (and does the same with her brother too, and probably always has done this) - recipe for disaster here - REWARD for bad behavior .

 

But the terrible thing is, even though I can understand how she has come to be like this - it doesn't make it any easier.

i'm not sure whether or not to mention BPD to her - could make her worse!

[Downtown]

But the terrible thing is, even though I can understand how she has come to be like this - it doesn't make it any easier.

No, it doesn't make it any easier because it does not excuse her behavior. There is no excuse for her continuing to act -- all through adulthood -- as though she is the eternal "victim," always the victim. Hence, if she is to have any chance at all of confronting her issues and learning to control them, you must allow her to suffer the logical consequences of her own behavior -- instead of allowing her to continue behaving like a four year old and walking on eggshells to avoid triggering her childish rages. If you do not allow her to grow up, you are harming her by "enabling" her to persist in behaving in a child-like manner.

 

Although your knowledge of her BPD traits cannot excuse her behavior, it nonetheless can help explain it. This is important because, until you understand the dynamics of your relationship, you cannot make an informed decision about whether to remain in it.

 

Moreover, if you decide to divorce her, you gain nothing if you run right into the arms of another woman just like her. You are at risk of doing exactly that if, like me, you are an excessive caregiver who doesn't feel loved unless you are being desperately needed. If so, you will walk right past all the emotionally available, stable women (boring!) until you find another one who desperately needs you -- evident in her ability to project a strong sense of vulnerability ("catnip" to caregivers like me).

i'm not sure whether or not to mention BPD to her - could make her worse!

Perhaps, but very unlikely. BPDers have such fragile egos that they are extremely well defended against seeing too much of reality when it comes to their shortcomings. One of the defenses they rely on heavily is denial. Another is projection. The latter works so wonderfully well because it occurs at a subconscious level, allowing the BPDer to consciously believe that her projection is true. The result is that, if you were to tell her she has strong BPD traits, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you -- believing you are the one with such strong traits. This is why, at all the BPD sites targeted to the nonBPD partners and spouses, the conventional wisdom is to NOT tell your partner about her illness.

 

Yet, being the good caregiver that I am, there was no way in hell I was going to walk away from my exW without making sure no stone was left unturned. So I gave her a book on BPD. Of course, she immediately concluded that I am the one with strong BPD traits. But I do have the comfort of knowing I did everything possible to help her and I sleep well at night. That said, I advise you not to tell your W.

 

Even if she has BPD traits that are so strong to meet the diagnositic criteria -- and only a professional can determine that -- the professional most likely will not tell her what her true diagnosis is. Therapists know that a high functioning BPDer almost certainly will terminate therapy on hearing such a dreaded diagnosis. Moreover, they know that insurance likely will not cover the treatments unless the "diagnosis" is listed instead as PTSD, anxiety, or depression -- all of which are covered by insurance. Insurance companies generally refuse to cover BPD treatments, claiming (falsely) that BPD traits are untreatable.

[make me believe]

FURTHER INFO:

 

* If I was 'man enough' in the beginning - I would have left her fairly quickly from the first warning sign, but due to my forgiving nature; I did not penalize her, instead I was very understanding.

 

there's always been doubt there but I've supported my partner for a decade and tried to give here the benefit of the doubt every time.

I've allowed myself to be manipulated and now (thanks to some self help books - mostly written by women ironically) I'm finding the strength to stand up for myself and I'm 'manning up'.

 

It's made me realize a few things about myself:

I've probably never really loved her - but not had the courage to say so.

 

This makes me so angry because you KNEW exactly what you were getting into, you entered into this relationship & marriage willingly, and now you are complaining about what you have. You were not "manipulated" into staying with her. You stayed with her for 12 years, married her and had a baby with her by your own freewill. If it was really THAT bad, you had many, many opportunities to leave. I think that you are now rewriting history and making it seem worse than it actually was (and conveniently leaving out the good stuff which apparently motivated you to stay with her for 12 years) because you've made up your mind that you want out. And what a great time to do it, huh? You couldn't have made this decision before getting her pregnant and starting a family with her?

 

Come on. This has to be a nightmare for your wife -- her husband all of a sudden deciding he was never happy, never in love, etc and just leaving. It is so incredibly unfair to your wife because it doesn't sound like she's even changed much throughout your relationship -- she's still the same woman you met 12 years ago, only now that woman isn't what you want anymore.

[londonR]

thanks again downtown.

No, i won't make the same mistake twice. I actually long to be with someone 'normal'.

Maybe there is an element of wanting to be the saviour, knight in shining armor etc, but most people probably want to help others by nature.

 

btw, i've just ordered the 'walking on eggshells' book thanks.

 

'make me believe' -

it doesn't sound like she's even changed much throughout your relationship -- she's still the same woman you met 12 years ago

- a bit harsh, she's actually worse. Maybe i did love her a bit, but never really felt that great about it all.

 

I've tried packing my bags several times before, but when she's in pieces it's a bit difficult for a human being to see another human being so helpless.

It's also surprising how quickly time passes by when we put things off 'until tomorrow'.

I did manage to pack my bags once 2 yrs ago (for almost a week) and i would not have come back either if i did not hear about how she demanded to see someone at the doctors re: her mental state.

 

I only came back because she agreed to see someone re: her aggression (but she never did). After the initial 'false hope' of MC I wrongly thought we could make it work, as she later went back to her old ways and now is a bit worse.

 

Even if you think she hasn't changed much - i've realized that i'm not going to accept this anymore.

 

...only now that woman isn't what you want anymore.

maybe so, whatever my 'love-meter' was reading before - it's now running on empty, but that's my prerogative. i can't change this, there is no chemistry i have to stop kidding myself and pretending that if she has a good day that it's all going to be alright.

 

I'm sure if i was a women posting this saying i didn't love my husband - you'd soon tell me to simply move on.

[Emme]

Even though she's a calmer person - I still don't like her touching me - it feels so wrong, all the chemistry has gone. It's like my sub-conscious mind (or my heart) has decided that going back is a 'no-go area'.

 

 

 

This made my heart sink. To know you are with someone who makes you feel this way. Not even a caress makes you feel the love this woman has for you. You need to really make a choice. I don't think telling you to rekindle what you once had is the way to go because from your post it seems you never had "IT" at all. All I can tell you is to fall in love with your wife. You didn't seem to fall the first time, you just tripped. If you are not willing to fall and know her arms will be there to catch you, end it. I wish you the best in what you choose to do. If you do start a new relationship be honest with yourself about your wants and needs. Don't settle. Good luck.

[Downtown]

Matt, if you decide to divorce, there are two resources that will be especially valuable if your W has strong BPD traits. One is the "Leaving" message board at BPDfamily.com, where you will find the experiences of hundreds of people going through the same painful process. The other is Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Released just a few weeks ago, this book is co-authored by the same guy who wrote the classic Stop Walking on Eggshells.

[londonR]

Had another row with the wife, told her I still wanted to leave and she got terribly upset and not in any position to care for our child. I had to offer an olive branch.

I told her I suspected she had BPD. It didn't go down too well at first.

She denies having BPD, but admits to some aspects of it.

 

I believe the following are true:

* quarrelsome behaviour and conflicts with others,

* does not like being criticized (and can take some advice as deep criticism),

* liability to outbursts of anger, with inability to control the resulting behavioural explosions,

* unstable and capricious mood,

* excessive efforts to avoid abandonment.

 

And these symptoms in part

* chronic feelings of emptiness / suicide threats.

* liability to become involved in intense and unstable relationships, often leading to emotional crisis.

 

as for the last one - we have been together over 10 years, but i wouldn't call it 'stable'.

 

She would probably say that, all the above are only partially true and play down the extent.

And would also blame other factors - such as :

* not having a great relationship with her mother due to her grandmother offering more love and support after her father died

* believing her mother loved her siblings more (wife's 2 brothers)

* spending her 3rd birthday in hospital (away from mother)

* being separated from mother at birth due to being born 2 months premature

 

I probably need to look into BPD more and how to deal with it, as the advice for partners seems to make sense.

 

Not sure if she'll agree to any advice of dealing with BPD, but she's agreed to go to anger management.

 

Of course, there's still the problem of whether or not i can love her.

She's a good parent when we're together, but the idea of her being the main carer of our child as a single parent with possible BPD is now more worrying.

[Downtown]

Matt, if Emma is a BPDer (has strong BPD traits, either above or below the diagnostic threshold for having full blown BPD) she almost certainly is high functioning nearly all the time -- or you would not have dated her, much less married her. I mention this because the self-destructive trait (e.g. cutting and suicide attempts) are usually seen only in low functioning BPDers. Those who are HF will, however, sometimes threaten suicide as a way to control you. My exW, for example, walked to a high bridge several times. When I stopped following her (a block away), she called me three times from the subway platform (as a train was rumbling by) and, just before hanging up, told me she was going to jump in front of the next train.

 

Although I knew it was highly unlikely she would follow through, it nonetheless was scary as hell because a few of the HF BPDers do kill themselves -- primarily because they can momentarily deteriorate so much under stress that they become LF BPDers for a short while. I saw my exW do this on 3 or 4 occassions, when she had done some awful thing (e.g., secret credit card on which she charged $5,000) and I was demanding an explanation instead of backing off. I saw her litterally disintegrate in front of me -- initially trembling and then shaking badly, while gasping from deep sobbing. On those rare occassions when I saw that break down of her ego, I immediately switched from rage to throwing my arms around her and hugging her until she pulled herself back together. It was perhaps the most frightening experience I've ever had. I mention this because, if Emma is a HF BPDer, you may experience the same thing if you decide to leave her.

 

As to your list of her traits, if she is a BPDer you would not only be seeing a fear of abandonment but also of engulfment -- which is not on your list. The latter occurs during intimate moments, making her feel like she is losing herself into your strong personality -- as though she is evaporating into thin air. As I noted earlier, this is why BPDers tend to behave the very worst right after the best of times, pushing you away by creating an argument over nothing. This may explain, then, why your W is frequently so argumentative and angry. It is her way of avoiding (or getting relief from) the engulfment experienced during intimacy.

 

Moreover, you also would be seeing emotional instability, which usually is most evident in the rapid flips between loving you and devaluing you -- and in the push-you-away and pull-you-back cycle. The frequent arguments over nothing would account for the push-away phase. You haven't really mentioned any pull-you-back phase, however.

[Goldenspoon]

I have some questions for you:

 

1) Are you "talking" to another woman?

 

2) Do you have feelings/crush for another woman?

[londonR]

The frequent arguments over nothing would account for the push-away phase. You haven't really mentioned any pull-you-back phase, however.

She kinda pulls me back when she's upset. - Even though I don't want to be pulled back, I just can't bare to see anyone so upset.

She hasn't tried suicide but might if i left.

 

 

1) Are you "talking" to another woman?

2) Do you have feelings/crush for another woman?

 

No, and No, although I can look at other women with admiration and wonder what a normal life would be like. I think I could easily fall for someone else though if the opportunity arose, but unlikely as I don't go out much.

I wouldn't have a problem with being single either. If I was single, I'd do things the right way - have space to myself and then look for someone available with little baggage.

[londonR]

just done this website test/survey on behalf of wife (answering what i believe):

http://similarminds.com/cgi-bin/newpd.pl

 

and came back with these results:

------------- result -- average result (on website)

Paranoid ---- 46% --- 49%

Schizoid ----- 74% --- 53%

Schizotypal - 74% --- 53%

Antisocial --- 14% --- 47%

Borderline -- 38% --- 47%

Histrionic --- 26% --- 43%

Narcissistic - 58% --- 41%

Avoidant ---- 46% --- 39%

Dependent -- 46% --- 37%

Obsessive -- 54% --- 40%

Compulsive

 

 

- Borderline was not so high. But guess it's only a survey and not proper diagnosis.

(and Schizotypal and Schizoid do not define her )

Edited June 29, 2011 by londonR

[ron1]

Hi Matt,

 

Few things.

first, even if it was BPD- i do not think you should tell her that.

this is because of 2 reasons:

1. she will have subconscious excuse to keep acting like this.

2. she wont take the responsibility of her act and she will blame the BPD.

as you can see - it will keep the cycle of horror...

 

NOW,

i do not think it is BPD at all.

and this is my point of view as a coach from reading what you wrote.

tony and cloe taught us in the coaching course, that this kind of behavior derived from not fulfilling her 6 human needs for a long time.

 

so here is my point of view about this:

1.

she IS in a crazy 8. not as you think that sometimes - she ALWAYS in it.

you can not escape a crazy 8 up unless the one in the crazy 8 meet his all 6 needs in a positive way.

 

as you told us up here, it looks like she escape it down in the times you think its over. but escape it down will make her come back to the crazy 8 as she meet her needs in negative way when escaping down.

escaping doen as you could see in the movie is doing things like dringking smoking, buying lots of things, and even drugs.

 

the escaping and then snap back to crazy 8 in the anger side of it will looks like a BPD. well - its not, as after anger she will go to the right side of the crazy 8 and get to depression.

 

now is the funny part - the TRIGGER you was talking about triggers probably when you try to snap her out of the depression side of the crazy 8. this is because taking her of a side in a crazy 8 except in the up exit will cause her not to meet her needs at all (depression = needs of variety, connection and some significance).

taking her needs, even if she meet them in low quality is counted as attack on her. so when you try to be nice to snap her out of her depression, will actually snap her anger...

 

2.

you do not know how to meed her needs OR you even do not know her needs (i mean the Vehicles of how to fulfill her needs).

you should start here - know her deep needs and what her rules for meeting them.

 

take the top 3, and make sure you meet them every day.

 

now, about how to snap her out from the crazy 8 up - i cant train you here.

so what i can do, as its forbid to self promote here, is to give you to see again this video of tony, that in this 1 he snap out Thanny from her crazy 8, and explain how to do it.

 

this is the best i can give you her with this information and the odd rule of not giving you my info, what can cause a ban here - heh...

 

here is the video - enjoy and let me know if it helped -see it agin:

http://robbinsmadanescoachtraining.com/?p=812

 

and remember - anger is always comming from feeling a deep hurt and pain and from needing love.

Give her love and reassure her instead of drawing back.

Giving her love when she angry will break her pattern. not at start as she wont beleave you and test you, but it will if you persist.

 

 

O... and 2 additional things -

let her see all the videos.

and about her mother and father - this strengthen my point of view - if her mother prize her for anger in giving her what she want - it developed a pattern for acting like this with everyone else.

 

so to fix this you cant give her what she wants. but if you wont give her as well, as it is a pattern, she will be even angrier this way.

 

so what you need to do, is giving her something else, that she do not want it now, but need it and will make her happy (meaning - meeting her at least 3 needs).

this way you wont "surrender" to her anger, but still calm her down...

its a good strategy we are using ... and it works wonder...

 

if you will follow tony videos i am sure you will be fine...

check his products in his main site under his name.

i bought his ultimate relationship a year ago. and it is the best you can find.

if it is your marriage on the alter here, i would even suggest you to look at tony site for a coach in his organization at your area or by phone and do a session or 2.... it might save your marriage....

 

i with i know all i know today 3 years ago with my EX GF... i had the same situation with her.... and that was without marriage....

 

Good luck...

 

O, and i want you to see this film as well:

http://robbinsmadanescoachtraining.com/?p=71

this is talking about how some will try to talk about suicide, for drawing attentions....

it when they not getting needs of love... its the next level of anger... this is a good one and will help you understand her deeply...

Edited June 29, 2011 by ron1

[londonR]

Now that i've read BPD book: 'Walking on Eggshells',

(I obviously can't diagnose if it is BPD), but there are so many traits in there which strike a chord.

 

 

She may not have the

Traits involving behavior:

such as self harming - but would think about suicide if she was very low.

She may not have any self-damaging impulsive behaviors (apart from shopping).

 

Only has this trait slightly: Traits involving identity

 

But definitely has these-

Traits involving emotions:

1. Shifts in mood lasting only a few hours.

2. Anger that is inappropriate, intense or uncontrollable.

 

And has these characteristics:

Traits involving relationships

 

7. Unstable, chaotic intense relationships characterized by splitting (see below).

 

8. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment

 

Splitting: the self and others are viewed as "all good" or "all bad."

Sensitivity to criticism or rejection.

Feeling of "needing" someone else to survive

Need for affection and reassurance

 

-----------------

she IS in a crazy 8

 

She maybe in a 'crazy 8' (and possibly didn't feel 'significant' having 2 brothers either - 1 older and 1 younger who got a lot of attention).

 

you do not know how to meed her needs...

I know what she wants and needs, but I can't deliver this.

(she wants more emotional support, attention, affection and hugs etc, but i'm feeling fed up, tired, pissed off and very 'unloving' right now).

So her basic needs are probably not being met, as i'm not offering much emotional support.

This could improve things (as things did improve a bit before when i offered more hugs after MC).

But this would be just a 'short-term' fix as I believe the traits which she has (which closely resemble BPD) will always come back every time anything goes wrong - e.g.

if our baby cries or won't eat her dinner etc.

 

But the problem now is that - I don't know if i'm capable of loving her again or offering any emotional support, i find it hard to go back, I find it incredibly difficult to hug her now. Perhaps I have bigger issues?

(I don't believe i'd take these issues with me into another relationship as i now have more relationship tools under my hat and a greater awareness.)

 

Maybe if i'd discovered how to deal with BPD / BPD traits sooner in the relationship i could have nipped things in the bud and made a go of it, but I don't feel ready to give her my heart again and don't feel any chemistry either.