don't love wife but feel sorry for her and can't leave

[Downtown]

Now that i've read BPD book: 'Walking on Eggshells',

(I obviously can't diagnose if it is BPD), but there are so many traits in there which strike a chord.

Matt, the term "disorder" means "identifiable disease" in every field of the medical sciences. In psychology, however, the term does not mean "disease" but, rather, a set of behavioral symptoms (i.e., traits). Like headaches, body temperature, and muscle soreness, the nine BPD symptoms are traits that all of us exhibit occasionally. They become a problem only when they are so strong that they start undermining our ability to sustain a LTR with loved ones and close friends.

 

At issue, then, is not whether your W has BPD traits. Everybody does. Rather, the issue is whether she has them at a moderate to strong level where they are undermining your marriage. Nobody is better qualified to judge that than you because you have lived with her for years. Moreover, symptoms like temper tantrums, black-white thinking, and constant blaming are easy to spot. If you see strong behavioral symptoms like these occurring often, then you ARE seeing strong BPD traits.

 

What you cannot do, as you are quick to acknowledge, is determine whether those traits are so severe and persistent as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having a full-blown pattern of BPD symptoms. Only a professional can make that determination. Yet, symptoms meeting only 50% of those criteria may make your life miserable. Hence, for purposes of deciding whether you should remain married, it does not matter whether your W meets 100% of the diagnostic criteria or falls short of it at 60% or 70%. What matters is whether you are able to get along with her well most of the time.

I know what she wants and needs, but I can't deliver this.

If she has strong BPD traits, nobody can satisfy her emotional needs. It is an impossible task, as you've read in Stop Walking on Eggshells.

Maybe if i'd discovered how to deal with BPD / BPD traits sooner in the relationship i could have nipped things in the bud.

With a BPDer, the underlying problems are low self esteem, inability to trust your statements, lack of emotional control, and fear of abandonment and engulfment. To be able to nip those problems "in the bud," you would have had to be able to fix your W -- another impossible task. Only your W has the ability to fix herself and she likely will not get far in that process without years of professional advice. So please don't beat yourself up about not catching it earlier.

[londonR]

Yet, symptoms meeting only 50% of those criteria may make your life miserable. Hence, for purposes of deciding whether you should remain married, it does not matter whether your W meets 100% of the diagnostic criteria or falls short of it at 60% or 70%. What matters is whether you are able to get along with her well most of the time.

 

Good point. I think this is important. The more I think about it the more I think I can't satisfy her needs emotionally and we won't/can't get along.

 

All I can tell you is to fall in love with your wife

I've tried, but I'm not one who can go back. If she could meet someone else and find happiness I'd be over the moon (although there'd be a great danger of her taking her problems with her and history repeating itself, unless divorce caused her to look at herself internally and changed her way of thinking and sought professional guidance etc).

 

thanks.

[IzzyB]

Matt, if you decide to divorce, there are two resources that will be especially valuable if your W has strong BPD traits. One is the "Leaving" message board at BPDfamily.com, where you will find the experiences of hundreds of people going through the same painful process. The other is Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Released just a few weeks ago, this book is co-authored by the same guy who wrote the classic Stop Walking on Eggshells.

 

These are great resources but I have to ask you, are you a licensed mental health professional? Some of the information you are relaying in a few of your posts is incorrect .clearly you have experience with your wifes bpd, but while that makes you qualified to share your personal experience this does not qualify you to diagnose and educate in detail as a trained expert. I'm not trying to put you down and I know you mean well, but it may be more helpful to encourage op to consult with a licensed therapist and do his reseach. Borderline pd is complex and frequently occurs with mood and sometimes cognitive disorders. So please op, do some research and speak to a professional. You will need some help to make sure your daughter is in a safe and stable environment during the separation and divorce process. Pm me if you want to discuss.

[dreamingoftigers]

You are continually yanking the abandonment chain of someone who has abandonment issues and wonder why she is stressed out and reacting poorly?

 

She has clearly led and built your connection while you have sat back detached and evaluating her as a spouse and parent while dealing with her own personal tragedies.

 

I would look into your own issues and question whether or not you have an attachment disorder first before analyzing her "BPD."

 

I have been diagnosed with BPD and went through very long-term and specific treatment that I researched and painstakingly pursued because I realized that while I was "fine" 95% of the time, the other 5% would kill me, and kill me very young if I could not abate it or halt it. In fact at one point during my youth I carried around sleeping pills so that when the suicide impulse hit or when I knew that my stress levels were too high and that the impulse would hit, I would down three and toss the bottle so that I would outsleep the urges and not end up in the hospital again. It was sad but it saved my life. It did cost me employment and education, but it saved my life. I am very very glad that those years are over.

 

If your wife has a mental condition and is still trying to hold together a family, she should be commended (BY YOU) and not dumped. You are her husband and have a certain responsibility to both your wife and the birth family of your child to ensure health as best you can for them both. It is your responsibility as a husband and father to ensure their safety and do all that you can to stand by them and mediate your conflicts instead of avoiding them and trying to back away from them. I am not saying allow yourself to be abused. I am saying take a damn good look at conflict patterns, what sparks them, and how to properly respond. Quite frankly if you knew those principles you wouldn't have a wife exploding on you, and if you did you wouldn't reward the behaviour, you would clip it quick.

 

The more you look at the ideal life outside your marriage instead of working to fix the marital problems on your end (i.e. not even being fully committed to solving them) the more your marriage will deteriorate. You cannot sit idly by expecting things to improve for you on a silver platter. Improving a marriage actually takes some work, not just walking away when the wife-object doesn't perform the way that you would like her to.

 

Three books for you:

 

Why Mars and Venus Collide, (in this book you will learn to listen without judging and interrupting, I have learned at long last that women "catch on fire" when being interrupted, judged and invalidated, mostly when men do it by subconsciously trying to help).

 

Taming Your Outer Child (Without a doubt a concept that will change many many lives, including your own)

 

Improving Your Marriage Without Talking About It (This book should be required reading in high school)

 

Whether or not you feel like staying or not, you signed on for a responsibility of a lifetime.

 

Don't think I don't empathize with your situation, I have been digging through a very lonely marriage myself and only after many failed attempts at examining my spouse after 2.5 years have I made any headway. I can assure you that if you don't deal with the conflict and gridlock in this relationship, you will simply have subsequent relationships with the same pattern. You are half of this, don't expect the problem to fix itself without your input and committment. Why should she be more committed to fixing marital issues than you? What makes her more responsible for the fate of the marriage than you?

 

Perhaps instead of tearing down the very nature of your spouse considering we are all very imperfect beings, you could address the very behaviour that causes you the stress and put some very heavy and thick boundaries around those behaviours, unless you want to role model for your child to give up when something is a little tougher then you like.

 

Every discomfort that comes from self-change is growth, just like when your muscles get sore from weight-lifting at the gym.

 

As for you current marital strategy, you will never win the game by sitting on the sidelines criticizing your teammates who are actually on the field, whether or not they make the wrong plays.

[dreamingoftigers]

BTW, I mention my experiences with struggling through trauma/BPD because it sounds like you have no experience dealing with a true, hardcore, BPDer. The best of us have traits of borderline, whether we like to admit it or not. If your wife was to analyze you, she would probably see many similar traits (spouses tend to "mirror" each other).

 

When your marriage is in heavy conflict, you tend to show your worst side to your spouse. Depression can look like BPD, and your wife did have a baby not that long ago.

 

Do you have any idea how many armchair psychologists come onto LS claiming BPD/NPD for their exes/significant others. You would think that 75% of the population had it and that LS was the last internet island of the sane and hurting (and of course the local dorks). The only one who truly should even be assessing for BPD (or NPD for that matter) are actual trained mental health care providers.

 

Perhaps going to MC on your own to figure out how to deal with your wife AND minimize the potential impact of a split on your child would be the responsible way to approach the situation. You are leaving the relationship/marital power in your wife's hand except for the part where you pull the ripcord on the whole thing. You are completely underselling your own influence and power in the situation, there are about 5000 options to improve the situation from what it is to where you want to be without dumping and running.

 

If you try the ones I mention and they fail, post back, I have some other suggestions.

 

I apologize if it sounds to condescending or like I slapped you about. I reserve this tone for a select few who have a lot more on the ball and a lot more hope then they realize.

 

Don't make me say "Man Up."

[Downtown]

Are you a licensed mental health professional?

No, Izzy, as I indicated above, I am only a man who lived with a BPDer exW (and bipolar foster son) for 15 years. Throughout that period, I took her to weekly sessions with six different psychologists and 2 MCs.

clearly you have experience with your wifes bpd, but while that makes you qualified to share your personal experience this does not qualify you to diagnose.

Izzy, I never claimed to be qualified to make a diagnosis. On the contrary, I twice stated that "only a professional" can determine whether her BPD traits are so strong as to meet the diagnostic criteria for having the full blown disorder (posts 14 and 27 above).

it may be more helpful to encourage op to consult with a licensed therapist and do his reseach.

That's exactly what I've been doing, Izzy. I'm sorry I didn't make that clearer. With regard to research, I encouraged Matt to read professionally written books and articles by giving him titles and links. With regard to therapy, I encouraged him to seek a professional opinion by twice noting that only a professional can determine whether his W's BPD traits meet the diagnostic threshold. If Matt decides to seek a professional opinion, I would encourage him to do so on his own -- without his W present (at least at the initial meetings) -- to maximize his chances of getting a candid and frank assessment -- for reasons I gave above.

Some of the information you are relaying in a few of your posts is incorrect.

Where that is the case, please identify the mistake so I have a chance to correct it and avoid repeating it. Like everyone else, I learn from my mistakes.

[Allisha]

Um.

 

OP, I think you're ridiculous. You sit here in judgement of your wife, telling us she makes your skin crawl, that you resent her, that you've "probably never loved her"... but you had a baby with her just one year ago?

 

I don't really care for your little list of what an amazing husband you've been by sticking by her through certain things.. you brought an innocent child into an unhealthy marriage and you KNEW it was wrong. Shame on you. There really is no excuse.

 

It's not only your wife that has issues.

[dreamingoftigers]

This online stuff is not an effective way to deal with someone. It isn't always accurate or complete. If you are looking for a problem(to mitigate your culpability)you will find it. See a real doctor, for qualified analysis and diagnosis.

 

You shouldn't be required to be where you don't want to be, but don't diagnose her to justify your feelings that you harbored for years and decided you could no longer live with after having a baby. Professional help is a must to get to the bottom of her issue and yours.

 

Quite frankly BNB, we probably won't see this guy again, he seems like the type to follow the "they aren't cheering for my self-pity party, so I better get the Hell out of here."

 

Really if your wife had a mental disorder, that justifies leaving her?

 

God, I hope for your sake that you don't get cancer, she might be out the door on you then.

[IzzyB]

Hi Downtown: Here are some of the things that were described that are not clinically accurate (since you asked)

I put smilies around my responses so you can differentiate from your quoted comments.

 

 

Matt, you are not describing a "moody" woman but, rather, one whose anger is "event triggered." Because the anger has been there right under the surface (carried from early childhood), you do not have to do anything to actually create it. This is why, in ten seconds, she can erupt into an outpouring of anger. All you have to do is trigger it with an idle comment or minor infraction. This behavior is more accurately described as "hissy fits" and "temper tantrums," the same behavior you see in a four year old who is not getting her way. It is a big mistake to think of it as a "mood change."

 

True mood changes or mood swings are caused by an illness like bipoloar disorder. In contrast, the childish temper tantrums you are describing are usually produced by mild-to-strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). There are several clear differences between the two disorders. First, bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In sharp contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in one week -- or even one day. BPD rages, for example, typically last about 5 hours and rarely as long as 36 hours (if the BPD sufferer is inner-directed, you will not witness a raging screaming person but, instead, a quiet withdrawn person who punishes you with icy withdrawal and passive-aggressive remarks).

 

:)Bipolar mood swings can be as frequent as 15 minutes in a rapid cycler, you cant characterize bipolar from bpd from just mood swings. There are a comprehensive list of behavioral symptoms and criteria listed for each. There are many BIPOLAR sufferers out there whose symptoms mimic borderline pd and vice versa. It can be very very difficult to diagnose. This information is not correct, only aspects are, but taken out of context it is inaccurate.

 

A second difference is that the onset is very different. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build over several weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action.

 

:)SEE ABOVE

A third difference is that, whereas bipolar can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness you see when a BPD is splitting you black. The difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPD person can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly.

 

:)THIS IS NOT CRITERIA USED TO DIAGNOSIS THE D/O AND IF YOU HAVE EVER WORKED EXTENSIVLEY WITH BIPOLAR D/O, YOU CAN SEE AN INCREDIBLE LEVEL OF ?MEANNESS" - SO NOT A GOOD OR CLINICALLY ACCEPTED MEASURE:)

 

 

Finally, a fourth difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if she knows you well.

 

DEPENDS ON THE SEVERITY OF THE DISORDER AND IF THERE ARE PSYCHOTIC OR PARANOID FEATURES INVOLVED:)

 

Untreated BPDs, however, are unable to trust you for an extended period -- even though they sometimes may claim otherwise. This lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when a person does not trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time.A lot of us feel the same way. This is why the best-selling BPD book (targeted to the partners and spouses of BPDers) is called Stop Walking on Eggshells.

A typical BPDer (person with strong BPD traits) will blame every misfortune on her spouse and verbally abuse him -- yet, she cannot stand the thought of his abandoning her. THIS CAN BE TRUE BUT IS NOT ALWAYS

 

A BPDer has a tremendous fear of abandonment, usually due to genetics and to abuse or abandonment in early childhood -- as occurred to your W when her dad died while she was very young.

 

:)COMPLETELY FALSE. THERE IS NO CAUSALITY IMPLIED FROM ABUSE IN EARLY CHILDHOOD AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF Borderline PD. NONE. Abuse and abandonment in early childhood is associated more with other disorders but not with BORDERLINE.

 

 

You did make some good points and gave OP great literature to read, so thank sfor that.

 

TO all who condemned OP for being heartless to leave a mentally ill person, yes I agree he should have thought of all this before creating a child with her, no doubt. However, if this woman is truly a severe borderline, NO AMOUNT OF LOVE FROM A SPOUSE in this world will make her better. His responsibility is to attempt to get her care and to make srue his child is safe. Borderline personality disorders are one of the most difficult to treat because the sufferer perceives herself as fine and everyone else is at fault. It can be a living hell for those who live with them when they refuse to get help, which is most of the time. This is not like depression or a physical illness. Its different. and i would hope that unless one has been there, one would be less judgmental and more willing to lend support.

 

I worry for this mans child more than anyone else.

[Downtown]

you cant characterize bipolar from bpd from just mood swings.

I never claimed you can. What I said was that the typical bipolar mood swings are very different from the typical BPD mood changes. That is, Matt's description of his W's behavior is much closer to what is typical of BPD traits than to what is typical for bipolar disorder. Of course, there are rare exceptions to everything. This is one reason I suggested to Matt that he read about the other BPD red flags to see if they sound familiar.

THIS CAN BE TRUE BUT IS NOT ALWAYS.

I never said "always." Rather, I said "a typical BPDer." "Typical" means "usually," not "always."

COMPLETELY FALSE .... Abuse and abandonment in early childhood is associated more with other disorders but not with BORDERLINE.

I agree that causality has not been established to a certainty. The current view of most researchers, however, is that BPD is likely due to genetics and/or childhood abuse or abandonment. Indeed, the association of BPD with childhood abuse/abandonment is well known. A recent study of nearly 35,000 adults, for example, found that 70% of those diagnosed with BPD reported that they had been abused or abandoned in childhood (J. of Clinical Psych., 2008). Although most abused children do not develop BPD, such abuse greatly increases the risk of developing it.

 

Psychologist Salters-Pedneault writes (2008) "Research does indicate that there is a relationship between child abuse and BPD. ...Research has fairly conclusively demonstrated a relationship between BPD and child maltreatment." See her article at http://bpd.about.com/od/causesofbpd/a/Abuse_ar.htm. Similarly, the Mayo Clinic website lists "genetics" and "a history of childhood abuse" as "factors that seem likely to play a role" in causing BPD. See http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/borderline-personality-disorder/DS00442/DSECTION=causes.

 

The NIMH (National Institute of Mental Health) states, "Although the cause of BPD is unknown, both environmental and genetic factors are thought to play a role in predisposing patients to BPD symptoms and traits. Studies show that many, but not all individuals with BPD report a history of abuse, neglect, or separation as young children." See the NIMH website. Likewise, three psychologists at the Univ. of Pittsburgh find that "a childhood history of sexual or physical abuse is highly prevalent in borderline personality disorder (BPD)...." See the National Institute of Health website at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12136678.

Bipolar mood swings can be as frequent as 15 minutes in a rapid cycler....

As I noted earlier, Izzy, the APA's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual defines "rapid cycling" to occur when a person experiences four or more mood swings or episodes in a 12-month period. It is estimated that only 5 to 15% of those with bipolar disorder fit the criteria for rapid cycling (see Kimberly Read article at About.com). The term "ultra-rapid cycling" is applied to those who cycle through episodes within a month or less. If this pattern occurs within a 24-hour period, the person's diagnosis could possibly be termed "ultra-ultra-rapid cycling."

 

Hence, although it is certainly possible for a bipolar sufferer to cycle in 15 minutes -- as you claim -- it is extraordinarily rare. In contrast, a 10-second mood change is commonplace for BPD sufferers because their temper tantrums are easily triggered by events.

[londonR]

Sorry if this post has caused a bit of a war between members. I appreciate and understand the intentions, thoughts and concerns of all comments.

Thank you.

 

It's not only your wife that has issues.

 

I realize I have problems too. I suppose I have wanted to 'save her' - maybe slightly co-dependent ? - but this has taken a toll on me now mentally. So does that mean if I have a mental illness - I could be excused for leaving?

 

Quite frankly BNB, we probably won't see this guy again, he seems like the type to follow the "they aren't cheering for my self-pity party, so I better get the Hell out of here."

 

I am taking on board all comments.

 

Really if your wife had a mental disorder, that justifies leaving her?

No.

 

We all have 'issues' to a certain extent - so does that mean nobody should ever leave anybody ever?

 

God, I hope for your sake that you don't get cancer, she might be out the door on you then.

 

- I wouldn't want her around if I did have cancer. I don't need anybody (really). My main concern is my daughter but worried about bringing her up in a loveless family. I'm worried a split may happen when she is older and has memory.

I know we shouldn't have tried for a baby ( i thought we could work through things, but then realized I made a mistake and was kidding myself).

 

How many couples having babies do so whilst under 100% happiness or are 100% solid?

[londonR]

btw, my wife has been to the doctors (not a specialist). They don't think she is BPD (but like I said - not seen any kind of specialist and I know her interpretation of things can be different from mine, thus more difficult to diagnose).

 

It is thought that she has 'post natal depression' .

Not sure what she had the years before having a baby though. She reckons she must have always been depressed.

 

You are continually yanking the abandonment chain of someone who has abandonment issues and wonder why she is stressed out and reacting poorly?

I realize this and not judging for what happens now. It's just that I'd already made my mind up (or thought I'd made it up).

I know I have issues with not being able to 'go back' in a relationship and 're-falling in love' but even if I have the bigger issue - then surely she deserves better than me in that case.

Surely she deserves someone who can love her?

 

if you don't deal with the conflict and gridlock in this relationship, you will simply have subsequent relationships with the same pattern

Not now. I am better at dealing with conflicts now. Before I'd run a mile. Now, if i think something is unacceptable i say so!

 

The only thing with doing it in this relationship is that it means going through world war 3 for the slightest of things - like whose turn it is to do dishes etc. A normal person wouldn't have a problem with solving problems amicably or sharing etc.

But if my wife wants to be aggressive over little stuff - she has to face the consequences - because I simply don't want to bicker for extended periods over trivial things - I'd much rather communicate like an adult and solve problems by talking and listening etc.

[Downtown]

btw, my wife has been to the doctors (not a specialist). They don't think she is BPD (but like I said - not seen any kind of specialist and I know her interpretation of things can be different from mine, thus more difficult to diagnose).

Matt, thanks so much for bringing us up to date. Perhaps your W's doctor is correct. Yet, as I explained earlier, therapists are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer the true name of her disorder -- e.g., due to the likelihood she will terminate therapy on hearing the diagnosis, due to the lack of insurance coverage for BPD treatments, and the terrible social stigma associated with it. Moreover, because such BPDers typically are good at hiding their dark side when away from the family, it can be difficult for a clinical psychologist to even see the traits during a few 50-minute sessions held once a week.

 

I therefore again suggest that, to obtain an objective and candid professional opinion, you see a clinical psychologist (i.e., having a PhD in clinical psychology) -- on your own without your W present -- and describe to him the behavior you have been witnessing. I say this because your W's therapist is not your friend. That therapist is ethically bound to be loyal to and protective of her and her alone. It therefore would be just as foolish to rely on the advice of HER therapist during the marriage as to rely on the advice of HER attorney during the divorce. Please take care to protect yourself, Matt.

[IzzyB]

Matt, thanks so much for bringing us up to date. Perhaps your W's doctor is correct. Yet, as I explained earlier, therapists are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer the true name of her disorder -- e.g., due to the likelihood she will terminate therapy on hearing the diagnosis, due to the lack of insurance coverage for BPD treatments, and the terrible social stigma associated with it. Moreover, because such BPDers typically are good at hiding their dark side when away from the family, it can be difficult for a clinical psychologist to even see the traits during a few 50-minute sessions held once a week.

 

I therefore again suggest that, to obtain an objective and candid professional opinion, you see a clinical psychologist (i.e., having a PhD in clinical psychology) -- on your own without your W present -- and describe to him the behavior you have been witnessing. I say this because your W's therapist is not your friend. That therapist is ethically bound to be loyal to and protective of her and her alone. It therefore would be just as foolish to rely on the advice of HER therapist during the marriage as to rely on the advice of HER attorney during the divorce. Please take care to protect yourself, Matt.

 

 

Oh for pete's sake! OP, definitely get yourself to a well qualified therapist but dont listen to Downtown, the therapist does NOT have to be a PhD in order to be good - thats laughable. There are many qualified licensed clinicians out there from LCSWs to Psyd's to Psychiatrists, so dont limit yourself on who you see based on the letters. Experience is much more important than the label. Oh, and downtown, FYI many clinical psychologists do testing more than therapy and that is what they are usually known for: testing and research. Please stick to your books and leave the "clinical" advice to the professionals IN REAL LIFE.

And by the way, a really good clinician doesnt try to split the family further! While they have strict ethical and legal guidelines, one of the goals if working with a true borderline personality d/o (if thats what his wife actually has, and we dont know this) is to unify the family, and ask the client if she would allow her husband to attend a session for starters.

 

Im done here. Good luck OP.