Is Yo-yo'ing back and forth normal?

[SteveS]

Using him?! No! Didn't you read my other posts. :eek:I grieved and grieved and grieved.

 

Apologies that was insensitive of me, and yes I've read your posts. A case of my own abandonment issues surfacing. Sorry. Actually "a reality check (update) was really useful in helping me understand what my xMW may be going through.

 

Is it wishful thinking on my part that she is upset? that she misses me. Oh don't get me wrong I want her to be happy and you're right the best thing for me is to close the door so she can't come back. But I do hope she loves me. Its been such an antagonistic angry couple of months - and whatever special place she had for me is obviously gone. I'm not her best friend, confident or someone she needs and thats how we've parted. with her telling me that. I wish if she had planned to go she did it better. With love and affection rather than this.

 

Do you think her understood? Do you ever wish you could have ended things better Janey?

[JaneyAmazed]

Apologies that was insensitive of me, and yes I've read your posts. A case of my own abandonment issues surfacing. Sorry. Actually "a reality check (update) was really useful in helping me understand what my xMW may be going through.

 

Is it wishful thinking on my part that she is upset? that she misses me. Oh don't get me wrong I want her to be happy and you're right the best thing for me is to close the door so she can't come back. But I do hope she loves me. Its been such an antagonistic angry couple of months - and whatever special place she had for me is obviously gone. I'm not her best friend, confident or someone she needs and thats how we've parted. with her telling me that. I wish if she had planned to go she did it better. With love and affection rather than this.

 

Do you think her understood? Do you ever wish you could have ended things better Janey?

 

 

I just don't know what to think of you xMW's behavior. I would think (based on my own situation) that it takes a while to completely get over someone that you loved. I understand wanting to know if she loves you. It's very hard for me to act angry towards someone I still have feelings for...unless I'm protecting myself. She may be protecting her heart from more pain? I'm not sure. As far as ending things better, I've thought about that a million times. Honestly, I don't think I could have ended it any other way. I was addicted to my xOM and I knew I couldn't stop seeing him without confessing to my H. The last time I saw xOM I had a feeling I wouldn't be back. I had already thought about telling my H, but I still wasn't sure. I couldn't bear saying goodbye to xOM. I couldn't imagine him not being in my life. I was so scared. It just so happened that the next day my H and I got in a huge fight. I cried and cried. I missed what my H and I used to have. He told me he knew something was wrong and that I could tell him anything. That was my cue to tell him. I knew I had to. There was no way to end it in a nice, neat way. I'm not someone who can just end an affair and keep it a secret for life. It was eating away at my soul. It would forever separate me from my H. I would not be able to be intimate with him hiding that secret. I had to tell him. The whole process was like ripping a band-aid off. I did not end things with xOM first, have LC, etc, etc. I saw xOM one day, nothing unusal and the next day confessed to my H and never saw xOM again (except in traffic a couple of times). For me, it had to be done that way. Horrible for everyone really, but I think my H at least appreciated that I told the truth.

[East7]

Hi Steve,

I'll bring my opinion too :

 

So tell me Janey. Were you using your OM or did you love him, and if so do you still love him?

 

I don't think that most MW "use" their OM. They are genuinely attracted and have strong feelings for OM. The thing is that while they don't have any pragmatic "using" intentions, they know very well that they have nothing to offer except the A.

 

The concept of "being used" depends also on the fact whether the OM wants a future with MW or just enjoys the A. If the MW knows that the OM wants more then an A, then yes, de facto, she is using him, she just doesn't realize it.

 

It is just like any other relation not only an affair. If you date a woman and you know she wants a relationship but you want just fun/sex, and you keep seeing her, you are actually misleading or using her.

 

When my xMW "entered in my life" she knew very well she had nothing to offer me and she had no intention to divorce. Yet she insisted on keeping the A going on, because she was focused on her own feelings, not the emotional harm she was doing to me.

 

Do you think her understood? Do you ever wish you could have ended things better Janey?

 

There is no *right* way to end a relationship. Parting is always sad and ugly.

Edited October 12, 2011 by East7

[JaneyAmazed]

Hi Steve,

I'll bring my opinion too :

 

 

 

I don't think that most MW "use" their OM. They are genuinely attracted and have strong feelings for OM. The thing is that while they don't have any pragmatic "using" intentions, they know very well that they have nothing to offer except the A.

 

The concept of "being used" depends also on the fact whether the OM wants a future with MW or just enjoys the A. If the MW knows that the OM wants more then an A, then yes, de facto, she is using him, she just doesn't realize it.

 

It is just like any other relation not only an affair. If you date a woman and you know she wants a relationship but you want just fun/sex, and you keep seeing her, you are actually misleading or using her.

 

When my xMW "entered in my life" she knew very well she had nothing to offer me and she had no intention to divorce. Yet she insisted on keeping the A going on, because she was focused on her own feelings, not the emotional harm she was doing to me.

 

 

 

There is no *right* way to end a relationship. Parting is always sad and ugly.

 

I agree with all of this. While in an affair, you tend to believe you can part ways and be friends and have a mutual respect for each other, no one is mad, etc, etc. I have not seen that happen often...based on the stories on LS. So Steve, at least your situation isn't unusual. Not that that would make you feel any better.

[FelicityShot]

Hi Steve,

I'll bring my opinion too :

 

I don't think that most MW "use" their OM. They are genuinely attracted and have strong feelings for OM. The thing is that while they don't have any pragmatic "using" intentions, they know very well that they have nothing to offer except the A.

 

The concept of "being used" depends also on the fact whether the OM wants a future with MW or just enjoys the A. If the MW knows that the OM wants more then an A, then yes, de facto, she is using him, she just doesn't realize it.

 

It is just like any other relation not only an affair. If you date a woman and you know she wants a relationship but you want just fun/sex, and you keep seeing her, you are actually misleading or using her.

 

When my xMW "entered in my life" she knew very well she had nothing to offer me and she had no intention to divorce. Yet she insisted on keeping the A going on, because she was focused on her own feelings, not the emotional harm she was doing to me.

 

There is no *right* way to end a relationship. Parting is always sad and ugly.

 

I have always liked your posts in lurking, East. Well I had a MM, what OW wouldn't?

 

You could almost have been dreamt up out of the LS lack of OM dreamtime.

 

That aside, I was talking to someone tonight about trust. And I have realised something on my journey, that mistrust is something in your own heart, and not anything external.

 

I just want to say to anyone in an 'did they love me, or didn't they' that they are picking petals off a daisy to decide their love.

 

If you love someone, you really know it. And it's who you love, and not who loves you, that is important in decisions.

[East7]

If you love someone, you really know it. And it's who you love, and not who loves you, that is important in decisions.

 

Hi Felicity,

 

at first, I had a hard time to get the point of your post, but I think I finally got you

 

Yes, Steve is wondering if his MW really loved him. I agree with you, in the end it doesn't really matter. The only thing he knows for sure are HIS own feelings.

 

As I said to another post, the beauty of Love is that it is 'yours', no matter how much it was reciprocated. I used a metaphor : it is like you paint a beautiful picture which is perfect, beautiful in your eyes and that you admire. You decide to give it to your MW but she hesitates then finally she doesn't want it. Does it really matter if she didn't want it in the end? It is your work, you love it and you decide to treasure it, hang it on the wall and keep it despite the fact that it was refused.

 

Now talking without metaphors. It is very common in the end of the A to be wondering about the genuine feelings of the MP. While in a normal relationship words are backed-up with actions everyday, the specificity of the A is that words don't match with the actions. "You love me? - So why the hell are you staying married?"

 

Wondering if they really loved us is part of the healing process and letting go before final acceptation.

 

It is very human to want to believe very strongly and firmly to something. Millions of people have died for ideals, because they were convinced about something as ultimate TRUTH. The most difficult for an AP is to accept that part of it was just mind-f***ing words, a kind of sentimental brainwashing.

 

In the end, only the result matters, they stayed. They betrayed you...All the 'undying love for you', 'soul mate' etc were sweet words written in the wet sand and swept away by the sea waves.

[SteveS]

 

I just want to say to anyone in an 'did they love me, or didn't they' that they are picking petals off a daisy to decide their love.

 

If you love someone, you really know it. And it's who you love, and not who loves you, that is important in decisions.

 

Felicity my dear your articulate and poetic words are a pleasure to read but I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you. Love is a many splendored thing, love lifts you up where you belong, all you need is love...However (and its a however with a capital H) that only stands true when its a reciprocal love.

 

Cinematic notions of an unconditional selfless love aside in reality it doesn't matter if you truly, madly, deeply love someone if they don't love you back. If anything it diminishes and redefines that love...yes that candle will still burn however over time you'll go from die-heard romantic to slightly weird obsessed stalker if the other person doesn't feel the same.

 

And thats why its important - to me anyway. Not just (as East said) because I need to justify to myself I haven't wasted 3 years of my life and betrayed my own personal values to engage in a romantic relationship with a married woman for something that wasn't "real", but also because if whatever love she felt that kept her "with me" has finally has died and been replaced by hate then it defines how I move forward. Either bittersweet memories or with anger and hatred.

 

It may not effect my decision to sever ties but it does effect how I feel about it.

[FelicityShot]

Felicity my dear your articulate and poetic words are a pleasure to read but I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you. Love is a many splendored thing, love lifts you up where you belong, all you need is love...However (and its a however with a capital H) that only stands true when its a reciprocal love.

 

Cinematic notions of an unconditional selfless love aside in reality it doesn't matter if you truly, madly, deeply love someone if they don't love you back. If anything it diminishes and redefines that love...yes that candle will still burn however over time you'll go from die-heard romantic to slightly weird obsessed stalker if the other person doesn't feel the same.

 

And thats why its important - to me anyway. Not just (as East said) because I need to justify to myself I haven't wasted 3 years of my life and betrayed my own personal values to engage in a romantic relationship with a married woman for something that wasn't "real", but also because if whatever love she felt that kept her "with me" has finally has died and been replaced by hate then it defines how I move forward. Either bittersweet memories or with anger and hatred.

 

It may not effect my decision to sever ties but it does effect how I feel about it.

 

In my research phase, I found that one indication of love is that it lasts -apparently infatuation dies quite easily. (I remember this from my teenage years )

 

Many BSs would back me up on this.

 

There is much to celebrate in finding unconditional love. In this, ego does not require a return.

 

I believe love is always requited - the nature of the beast.

 

But it doesn't mean you will 'be' with that person. Or that ego and/or other factors may count.

 

I only love you if you show me by your actions you love me back - healthy or co-dependent?

 

This line of thinking means you distrust the love you feel, and therefore want to protect yourself.

 

Which means you do not love completely, because mistrust is the opposite of love.

 

As a OW/OM this line of thinking would be normal. But it's self-annihialating. Mistrust is the lions jaw, because if you trusted the love, there would be no difficulty in letting go.

[SteveS]

In my research phase, I found that one indication of love is that it lasts -apparently infatuation dies quite easily. (I remember this from my teenage years )

 

Many BSs would back me up on this.

 

There is much to celebrate in finding unconditional love. In this, ego does not require a return.

 

I believe love is always requited - the nature of the beast.

 

But it doesn't mean you will 'be' with that person. Or that ego and/or other factors may count.

 

I only love you if you show me by your actions you love me back - healthy or co-dependent?

 

This line of thinking means you distrust the love you feel, and therefore want to protect yourself.

 

Which means you do not love completely, because mistrust is the opposite of love.

 

As a OW/OM this line of thinking would be normal. But it's self-annihialating. Mistrust is the lions jaw, because if you trusted the love, there would be no difficulty in letting go.

 

Yes perhaps at an airport runway in Casablanca. I could tell my OW that "You said I was to do the thinking for both of us. Well, I've done a lot of it since then, and it all adds up to one thing: you're getting on that plane with Victor where you belong. Inside of us, we both know you belong with Victor. You're part of his work, the thing that keeps him going. If that plane leaves the ground and you're not with him, you'll regret it. Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of your life."

 

You are right though when you sayI believe love is always requited - the nature of the beast. however put that together with I found that one indication of love is that it lasts -apparently infatuation dies quite easily and this OM is left wondering whether it was love or infatuation on her part.

 

And its not a mistrust. Because I love her. Unconditionally. And I did trust her love - more than I've trusted any other, however that love changed, darkened, dissolved until I couldn't recognize her. I don't just mean the yo-yo'ing - that I understand. But the anger, viscousness, cruelty...surely no person who loved / did love could feel such hate? Hate which has led to indifference which is even worse than the hate as its that, not hate, that is the true opposite of love. It doesnt' even merit a facebook like. Does that mean it was simply infatuation?

 

And if it was infatuation on her part then it wasn't a requited love....or a love at all. And its this question that makes it hard to let go. Because if she left with love and affection I would gladly have let go and sent her on the plane. Perhaps I'd strike up a beautiful friendship with a policeman called Louis. But her hate and indifference plagues me, leaves me with a thousand questions and prevents me from letting go.

[FelicityShot]

Yes perhaps at an airport runway in Casablanca. I could tell my OW that "You said I was to do the thinking for both of us. Well, I've done a lot of it since then, and it all adds up to one thing: you're getting on that plane with Victor where you belong. Inside of us, we both know you belong with Victor. You're part of his work, the thing that keeps him going. If that plane leaves the ground and you're not with him, you'll regret it. Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of your life."

 

You are right though when you sayI believe love is always requited - the nature of the beast. however put that together with I found that one indication of love is that it lasts -apparently infatuation dies quite easily and this OM is left wondering whether it was love or infatuation on her part.

 

And its not a mistrust. Because I love her. Unconditionally. And I did trust her love - more than I've trusted any other, however that love changed, darkened, dissolved until I couldn't recognize her. I don't just mean the yo-yo'ing - that I understand. But the anger, viscousness, cruelty...surely no person who loved / did love could feel such hate? Hate which has led to indifference which is even worse than the hate as its that, not hate, that is the true opposite of love. It doesnt' even merit a facebook like. Does that mean it was simply infatuation?

 

And if it was infatuation on her part then it wasn't a requited love....or a love at all. And its this question that makes it hard to let go. Because if she left with love and affection I would gladly have let go and sent her on the plane. Perhaps I'd strike up a beautiful friendship with a policeman called Louis. But her hate and indifference plagues me, leaves me with a thousand questions and prevents me from letting go.

 

It's a beautiful film, but that was a different age. Still, the lesson of letting go remains the same.

 

For me, and I appreciate not everyone is the same, mistrust is the opposite of love. The two things are connected, commensurate. They exist as the same kind of thing. Love and faith are interwoven. Hate is an emotion on a different plane. It is interwoven with anger and disgust and cruelty. Hate does not mess with love. It has nothing to do with it. Your position seems like this to me - you are plagued by feelings of mistrust and love trying to co-exist. I lived like this for a long time. Ultimately though, love cannot be destroyed. Although a person can deaden themselves.

 

This post makes me feel for you. It's a horrible way to be plagued.

 

Did you know she was capable of cruelty when you were involved with her? And you loved her anyway?

 

Do her actions make more sense if you imagine she feels huge levels of mistrust? Of herself, the idea of love, risking her M, you.

 

Anyway, unless her actions change, you can resolve this by moving into indifference yourself, or by dissolving the mistrust and allowing yourself the memories of love.

 

I found myself completely unable to move into indifference in my situation. The latter has been a healthy option. And I see my xAP's actions as far less cruel than I did when I was judging from my position of 'hurt'.

 

My pain clouded my judgement.

 

I hope you can heal well, however you move forward.

Edited October 17, 2011 by FelicityShot

[FelicityShot]

I also wondered, if you allow yourself to look at this woman through your 'love lens', can you imagine some way in which her actions seem right to her? Can you trust her enough for this?

[SteveS]

Your position seems like this to me - you are plagued by feelings of mistrust and love trying to co-exist. I lived like this for a long time. Ultimately though, love cannot be destroyed. Although a person can deaden themselves.

 

This post makes me feel for you. It's a horrible way to be plagued.

 

Did you know she was capable of cruelty when you were involved with her? And you loved her anyway?

 

I don't think she is cruel. She's simply reacting. However not even when I look through my unconditional love lens I can no longer justify her behavior. Her actions are of a child doing what "feels right" at any given time (regardless of who she hurts) rather than a person following her heart. He actions make a mockery of the concept of love which should be selfless. She is weak and out of control and for the first time ever I'm terrified of her.

 

She emailed me today. Asking how I was. Suggesting we should "be friends". I won't deny that I felt a familiar joy seeing her name in my inbox but where once I could compose pages to her I found myself unable to reply. Partly worried that she might negatively react to anything I might write. Party unconcerned about replying now she only wants to "be friends".

 

Do I still love her? Unconditionally. Do I wish to be hurt? Not in the slightest. Do I want her as "friends"? Not at all. Thats what I ended up telling her. I worry my honesty sounded weak but to be honest I don't care.

 

Perhaps indifference isn't possible when true love is at hand, but a healthy dose of pragmatism and fear can keep you on the straight and narrow!

 

And yes its a great film

[Emme]

She emailed me today. Asking how I was. Suggesting we should "be friends".

 

 

Do I want her as "friends"? Not at all. Thats what I ended up telling her. I worry my honesty sounded weak but to be honest I don't care.

 

 

You did good. Give yourself some credit.

[Circular]

I don't think she is cruel. She's simply reacting. However not even when I look through my unconditional love lens I can no longer justify her behavior. Her actions are of a child doing what "feels right" at any given time (regardless of who she hurts) rather than a person following her heart. He actions make a mockery of the concept of love which should be selfless. She is weak and out of control and for the first time ever I'm terrified of her.

 

She emailed me today. Asking how I was. Suggesting we should "be friends". I won't deny that I felt a familiar joy seeing her name in my inbox but where once I could compose pages to her I found myself unable to reply. Partly worried that she might negatively react to anything I might write. Party unconcerned about replying now she only wants to "be friends".

 

Do I still love her? Unconditionally. Do I wish to be hurt? Not in the slightest. Do I want her as "friends"? Not at all. Thats what I ended up telling her. I worry my honesty sounded weak but to be honest I don't care.

 

Perhaps indifference isn't possible when true love is at hand, but a healthy dose of pragmatism and fear can keep you on the straight and narrow!

 

And yes its a great film

 

I'm not sure if indifference is possible, I think for some it is attainable if they feel scarred enough by their situations, but doing the right thing for yourself is though.

 

Being friends though I think is dangerous, it leaves you stringing along even if it's just lightly. I think from what you say here, as long as she's in your life, you'll be unable to give yourself to someone 100%

[East7]

She emailed me today. Asking how I was. Suggesting we should "be friends". I won't deny that I felt a familiar joy seeing her name in my inbox but where once I could compose pages to her I found myself unable to reply. Partly worried that she might negatively react to anything I might write. Party unconcerned about replying now she only wants to "be friends".

 

Hi Steve. I have been exactly through this. When we were supposed to be totally NC, xMW would once in a while e-mail me with innocent "How are you?" - When I used to see her e-mail on my outlook, looking at her name popping up my heart would skip a beat, it was a kind of joy melted with pain, like smth pinching your heart. Truly I used to respect her enough to reply shortly and politely. I didn't want to ignore her. I thought I should be a man and answer..just answer.

 

Like your MW, mine wanted to be "friends" too.

 

I'll tell you why their contact isn't anything good :

 

Staying NC would drive her crazy, she couldn't stand that I was strong enough not to talk with her. Sometimes after her e-mails, I would cave in and resume talking with her. Oddly as soon as "she had me back" she would loose interest (challenge is gone) or would make it clear once again that nothing will ever change, that she is married and she is staying. I would always end up cursing myself why am I so stupid to let her play her games with me.

 

It was never because truly she wanted me friends or because she wanted to pack up and run to me.. It was rather her lingering addiction to me. She never cared if she was hurting me by contacting me. Never she wondered if it was painful to me to hear one more time "Oh but you know I'm married". It was always all about her.

[FelicityShot]

Hi Steve. I have been exactly through this. When we were supposed to be totally NC, xMW would once in a while e-mail me with innocent "How are you?" - When I used to see her e-mail on my outlook, looking at her name popping up my heart would skip a beat, it was a kind of joy melted with pain, like smth pinching your heart. Truly I used to respect her enough to reply shortly and politely. I didn't want to ignore her. I thought I should be a man and answer..just answer.

 

Like your MW, mine wanted to be "friends" too.

 

I'll tell you why their contact isn't anything good :

 

Staying NC would drive her crazy, she couldn't stand that I was strong enough not to talk with her. Sometimes after her e-mails, I would cave in and resume talking with her. Oddly as soon as "she had me back" she would loose interest (challenge is gone) or would make it clear once again that nothing will ever change, that she is married and she is staying. I would always end up cursing myself why am I so stupid to let her play her games with me.

 

It was never because truly she wanted me friends or because she wanted to pack up and run to me.. It was rather her lingering addiction to me. She never cared if she was hurting me by contacting me. Never she wondered if it was painful to me to hear one more time "Oh but you know I'm married". It was always all about her.

 

East, do you ever think you are buying into something by advocating NC?

 

I wonder if some LS people get confused by how it's supposed to be as written here by the supposed wise ones.

 

Addiction, NC, fog, split self, .. I wish I had never heard the terms and had just acted from my heart and never doubted my feelings.

 

Sometimes, from the really honest posters, I get something good from this place.

 

But dogma is dogma - paint it any way you want.

 

NC is a cruel and IMO souless journey. A break is good if that's what you need.

 

But who in their right mind ever thought that NC is a decent end?

 

I don't believe in it - I am a fan of getting some kind of closure any which way - blowing it up, forcing a confrontation, getting to the bottom of it all before you move on.

 

NC is a hell dreamt up by people who think that deadening the heart is a way to move on from love invested.

[Bittersweetie]

I just spent time reading through this whole thread, and it brought back a lot of feelings. I lived the yo-yo. After I first met xMM, he was like, when can we meet again? I want to see you, etc. Then he decided to be with another woman. Yet he still talked to me...wanted to be "special friends." And I went along with it because I craved the crumbs and was very weak at the time. Finally I couldn't take the up and down so I stopped contact. But then I started contact every once in a while...I was addicted, I was the yo-yo...and six months later we were talking again. Of course later I found out he no longer had the wife or the girlfriend, so that's probably why he started talking to me again. But it was still the yo-yo...he wanted to be with me, then no, I wanted to be with him, then no. The lingering addiction. I did have strong feelings for him, but I finally realized I had nothing to really offer him. I was married, and that was where I should be concentrating my energies. At that point I knew I had to end it, and it was up to me to do so.

 

When I reached that point, he was angry at the world and took it all out on me. It caught me off guard so I didn't get to end things like I'd wanted to, I thought it would end in a nice little package. I thought, yes, we could still be friends. But after that one single conversation, I knew it was no longer possible. The drama and yo-yo-ing lends itself to an end that isn't neat or tidy and never will be. All we can do is accept it and move on.

 

I just wanted to share here and say thank you to everyone for sharing their stories and advice in this thread...there are some very insightful people here, we're lucky to have them.