Love possible in A?

[wheelwright]

xOW/OM can have many Qs after an A and during NC.

 

Was it love? Am I insane? Should I have done it given the aftermath of pain? Did it happen because I am in some way seeing myself as undeserving?

 

This is compounded for an xMOM/MOW. By guilt and fear of breaking up a R or family unit. Or recognising love for BS.

 

For a double MOW/MOM encounter, obviously more so.

 

Tenacity answered some of these Qs from his viewpoint in a recent thread, and as mine are different, I'll add them here.

 

Love, especially falling in love is addictive. This is true, but it is not a negative addiction. It is one raison d'etre for us humans. Even in an A, it is not essentially negative, though in these circumstances it carries fallout. I think considering it negative leads us to follow neither our hearts nor our intuitions.

 

I think it is good to follow these - you have to do it within reason, but you should always do it. Of course being in love throws reason out of the window, which can create quite a kerfuffle. Balance will have to return at some point, often after suffering. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

I think people who have been thrown over after an A, BSs or OPs, will experience pain compounded by self-doubt when they come to question how they got themselves hurt.

 

This can produce positive realisations, such as about fears or negative cycles. I do not think it should make them question falling in love as they did, or whether they needed an exit or think they are undeserving. They acknowledged they were deserving when they fell in love, and if they wanted an exit they would not need love. Sex would be enough.

 

Although falling in love may be a natural part of an exit for some. They were leaving anyway in this case. You do not plan to fall in love, and many of us run away before we are willing to embrace it. Love is scary. It is bigger than we are.

 

I used to fear that my love A was a symptom of my being f**ked up.

 

This was a horrible fear. It made me lose faith in everything.

 

I don't think people who have fallen in love should be steered towards this way of thinking.

 

I think we should be glad to follow our hearts. Love is a better guide than fear. Unless the fear is about something concrete - too often it is about the shadow bogeymen of having to please others, feeling undeserving, or preferring to be a stone instead of a warm hearted life lover.

 

I would say to people who have fallen in love and lost, embrace your experience, never fear yourself or your heart, and remain compassionate to self and others while following the path you need to take.

[Silly_Girl]

Love is a better guide than fear.

 

I take a lot more comfort from working in a positive, loving fashion, than in a fearful, hesitant fashion.

 

I really like your post. I am glad there are folk who feel as you do.

[MissBee]

My understanding of love now, versus when I was in my last relationship is vastly different. I thought I loved him...but when it came down to it, I in fact did not.

 

When I was an OW, I did love him; however, my problem wasn't about the love it was about the entire situation and now I realize that who you choose to love and the situations that surround it speak to a lot. I realize now that love is more intentional than people make it seem and certainly more than I thought it was.

 

Love alone is not enough and certainly the term "falling in love" speaks to how it often is. I differentiate loving and being in love, often times being in love is just a glorified infatuation, or that whole idea of limerance, which serves it's purpose in some respect. From my experience, I have been "in love" before and I have also been in love fog before...and neither is sustainable. I don't feel bad about that, I just have a new idea of love and in terms of a life partner, I'd like a relationship built on more than that. I want the romance and those feelings but I also want a SOLID foundation and a conducive situation for it to grow and strengthen over time versus being tossed about on a stormy sea of feelings and terribly complicated scenarios. What is love without it being in a conducive situation? A hassle.....

[MissBee]

I enjoyed your post as well.. Love has always been scary to me. Kind of ironic that I feel more open and romantic towards a MM..

 

There's another thread about this...

 

But it is actually quite common for people with fears of intimacy to feel safer being involved with people who are unavailable or where the relationship has some barrier or limited capacity...as it almost guarantees that they never have to get too close and therefore the anxiety that certain fears they have may be realized is quelled.

[wheelwright]

Love alone is not enough and certainly the term "falling in love" speaks to how it often is. I differentiate loving and being in love, often times being in love is just a glorified infatuation, or that whole idea of limerance, which serves it's purpose in some respect. From my experience, I have been "in love" before and I have also been in love fog before...and neither is sustainable. I don't feel bad about that, I just have a new idea of love and in terms of a life partner, I'd like a relationship built on more than that. I want the romance and those feelings but I also want a SOLID foundation and a conducive situation for it to grow and strengthen over time versus being tossed about on a stormy sea of feelings and terribly complicated scenarios. What is love without it being in a conducive situation? A hassle.....

 

Love is always a momentous hassle! I remember reading over and over the line in a favoutite book ('The Other Side of You') the lines about a friend commiserating when he knew the protagonist had fallen in love. 'It's not what we want'.

 

In the book what you may be talking about is referred to as 'candyfloss and reassurance'. Which are very nice compared to hassle.

 

Love is reassuring in and of itself, but a R which is so may not leave you satisfied.

 

Love makes the hassle worthwhile. But aiming to incorporate this into a reassuring lifestyle may prevent the hassle becoming too unbearable!

[Glinda]

Love, especially falling in love is addictive.

Addiction to anything is unhealthy. The remaining of your post describes how to fuel an unhealthy addiction.

Professionals can help you work through this.

[wheelwright]

I take a lot more comfort from working in a positive, loving fashion, than in a fearful, hesitant fashion.

 

I really like your post. I am glad there are folk who feel as you do.

 

I guess I feel this strongly at the moment as I put my fears behind me.

 

Thanks SG.

[wheelwright]

There's another thread about this...

 

But it is actually quite common for people with fears of intimacy to feel safer being involved with people who are unavailable or where the relationship has some barrier or limited capacity...as it almost guarantees that they never have to get too close and therefore the anxiety that certain fears they have may be realized is quelled.

 

It's very sad when that happens. Many people live long lives in Rs like that and never wake up.

 

Falling in love can move people away from that.

[wheelwright]

Addiction to anything is unhealthy. The remaining of your post describes how to fuel an unhealthy addiction.

Professionals can help you work through this.

 

It is well documented that falling in love, whatever the circumstances, increases the flow of certain biochemicals. In the case of mother and child this is both beautiful and bonding. The addiction has a wonderfully positive outcome.

 

I wonder if there might be some professionals who can help with thinking outside of boxed negative interpretations of words such as 'addiction'.

 

If love for a lover is addictive, so is that for a child. I don't like the choice of term personally. Calling it love is enough for me.

 

To call love a negative addiction is like stopping the clocks. It's worse.

[MissBee]

Love is always a momentous hassle! I remember reading over and over the line in a favoutite book ('The Other Side of You') the lines about a friend commiserating when he knew the protagonist had fallen in love. 'It's not what we want'.

 

In the book what you may be talking about is referred to as 'candyfloss and reassurance'. Which are very nice compared to hassle.

 

Love is reassuring in and of itself, but a R which is so may not leave you satisfied.

 

Love makes the hassle worthwhile. But aiming to incorporate this into a reassuring lifestyle may prevent the hassle becoming too unbearable!

 

I'm not sure if I believe that...I used to...and I used to buy into the idea that "love is pain"....but from my experience only dysfunctional situations of love were hassles and pains.

 

Relationships are not easy but certain levels of complications and hassle and drama and anxiety that result are not because of love at all...but other issues being confused for love or mixed up with love or being wrongfully labeled love.

 

The relationships I admire and see as examples of what I want for myself, my brother and his fiance and my aunt and uncle, being prime examples, are secure and loving, romantic and exciting without hassle. They are my role models for what a good relationship looks like and I can see the stark difference between how theirs started, progressed, how they deal with issues, how they keep the spark alive etc. compared to the likes of my parents, myself and others who are stressed and upset 80% of the time in their relationships but somehow find the 20% of the time they are happy worth it. I really began to realize there had to be more...and I have seen people with more...therefore I am going to strive for that type of love.

[MissBee]

It is well documented that falling in love, whatever the circumstances, increases the flow of certain biochemicals. In the case of mother and child this is both beautiful and bonding. The addiction has a wonderfully positive outcome.

 

I wonder if there might be some professionals who can help with thinking outside of boxed negative interpretations of words such as 'addiction'.

If love for a lover is addictive, so is that for a child. I don't like the choice of term personally. Calling it love is enough for me.

 

To call love a negative addiction is like stopping the clocks. It's worse.

 

I think this is incomparable and even the fact that there are no forums with people lamenting over the love they have for their child, goes to show it is a rather different type of thing, the love for your child IMO being a more grounded and truer form of love than the feelings one has for a lover or over the course of a lifetime, several lovers. Many people are in love with their lovers but probably lack a true love for them..even the fact that people can fall in and out of love romantically...goes to show the nature of it, however, you don't wake up and realize you no longer love your child.

 

But yea...to me being in love and those chemicals and emotions and so on is a vastly different thing from love. I want a relationship where I love the person first and foremost and then am also inlove with them. I think the problem is when you're only "inlove" and the dopamine is flooding your brain with no grounding in the reality of a peaceful, sustaining, unconditional love, like that you have for your child.

[wheelwright]

I'm not sure if I believe that...I used to...and I used to buy into the idea that "love is pain"....but from my experience only dysfunctional situations of love were hassles and pains.

 

 

Love is hassle is different from love is pain.

 

Fear and negativity about love feelings bring pain.

 

It's hassle because of course we have bonded with someone so that we are thinking about them etc. The etc. is a big one! It can be a pleasurable and accepted hassle, like when you need to change your baby's nappy. It is not the kind of hassle we resent. That would be closer to pain, which I don't think is about love at all.

 

I'm sure your loving relations also experience this kind of hassle. It is what we become involved in when love dictates we no longer live our lives just for ourselves.

[Glinda]

It is well documented that falling in love, whatever the circumstances, increases the flow of certain biochemicals. In the case of mother and child this is both beautiful and bonding. The addiction has a wonderfully positive outcome.

 

I wonder if there might be some professionals who can help with thinking outside of boxed negative interpretations of words such as 'addiction'.

 

If love for a lover is addictive, so is that for a child. I don't like the choice of term personally. Calling it love is enough for me.

 

To call love a negative addiction is like stopping the clocks. It's worse.

People who are in addictive relationships with their children are in dysfunctional unhealthy relationships! Their children usually end up paying the price.

 

Do you have children? I mean this with all respect. If you feel that your love for a child is the same (or has an addictive quality) as love for a lover, I must insist on professional help!

[wheelwright]

People who are in addictive relationships with their children are in dysfunctional unhealthy relationships! Their children usually end up paying the price.

 

Do you have children? I mean this with all respect. If you feel that your love for a child is the same (or has an addictive quality) as love for a lover, I must insist on professional help!

 

If you are asking if I breast fed my babies and experienced the emotional and chemical bonding as a result, I can say yes. Did I give birth and experience a huge love oxyticin rush? Yes I did.

 

I also experienced an oxytocin rush in sex.

 

I believe this is entirely normal.

 

Do I hug and comfort my children whenever they need it? Yes.

 

My love for my children has an addictive quality i.e I would find it impossible to give up.

 

However, it has none of the negative or dysfunctional qualities we associate with addiction.

 

The only differences between love for a child and for a lover are that the latter are for an adult and all the maturity and sexual interaction that may entail.

 

You are taking the word addiction and winding me up as I see. And watch me go!

 

Would you warn newlyweds about the unhealthy addictive quality of their love? It is well documented such love is so.

[wheelwright]

I just love your thoughts on addiction!

 

Funny, I see these as very secondary to those I have on love.

 

Whatever is someone's focus I guess.

[wheelwright]

Sadly.....we are taught from a young age that love is supposed to conquer all and we are taught to believe in a fairy tale version of it that has little to do with real life. Real love is the respect and admiration that I saw my grandma and grandpa have for each other that withstood the test of time, the death of children and lots of financial hardships because they survived the depression. If my grandfather had lived a few more months they would have had 75 years together. Not once did I ever hear them nor did my mother ever hear a unkind word between them. The respect and regard they had for each other has always amazed me. To me.........this is what love is and should be.

 

I would agree with this.

 

This is love that has stood the test of time, as I know my love for my kids will.

 

As the love I and my sisters share does. Or the love with my aunt that has continued without even a blip for 42 years.

 

It is the same thing as any love, only especially wonderful as neither circumstance nor personal frailty has detracted. And in fact must have emboldened and re-enthused.

 

As you say, as it should be.

[wheelwright]

Reason being your thoughts about addiction were new to me. Your thoughts about love I already share.

 

I should have guessed from your name

[waytogo]

I enjoyed your post as well.. Love has always been scary to me. Kind of ironic that I feel more open and romantic towards a MM..

 

I actually don't consider this ironic from you, after all your posts starting as vweb, at all. You are only opening to something still unavailable. Something you didn't see value until he was unavailable.

 

You have less than anything I've ever read from an OW. Watching same porn from a distance is very distant. You are a free 900 call.

 

I don't say this to be mean to you. I say this because I think you are well younger than what you stated as vweb. I also think you are on your way to wasting alot of time while you have a son with so much potential you could be putting this focus you put on cyber MM. You are also hurting an inocent party seeking some part time attention for a confidence boost.

[MissBee]

People who are in addictive relationships with their children are in dysfunctional unhealthy relationships! Their children usually end up paying the price.

Do you have children? I mean this with all respect. If you feel that your love for a child is the same (or has an addictive quality) as love for a lover, I must insist on professional help!

 

That is true...

 

There are some single parents or parents with distant spouses or other issues who substitute that love they should have for a partner with that of their child (not sexually), which results in this dysfunctional relationship that is too close for comfort and features that same type of roller coaster and so forth. The latest reality show, Ryan & Tatum:The O'neals features a father daughter duo that operate of of such strange dynamics and needless to say, they are BOTH a mess.

[xxoo]

Love, especially falling in love is addictive. ..

 

Falling in love is addictive.

 

This implies falling in love (presumably with different people) again and again.

 

What room does that leave for true, lasting love?

 

The children analogy doesn't work, because we don't stop feeling love for one child when we have another, as most do when they fall in love with a new romantic partner.

 

If falling in love is held as an experience to value, and seek (addiction), how much value is given to staying in love?

[Breezy Trousers]

True love supports people to be at their highest. True love allows two people to join so they can turn out toward the world and extend love toward others. Everyone wins in true love and everyone is supported. Nothing is hidden. It's an open system. It's usually a calm, steady, balanced system. True love is kind to everyone, not just to one special someone. True love is the belief that we can only be lacking what we are not giving. True love is not always easy. It's the kind of thing BB's grandparents had. It can only be found with safe people.

 

Affairs never support people to act from their highest -- there's constant lying, deception, manipulation, isolation, specialness, and even attack. Affair deception causes APs to turn away in isolation from the world, not to join with the world. Affairs are a closed system. Affairs require someone to lose. All affairs lack empathy -- all of them -- causing people to harden and close toward one person in order to soften and open toward a "special" someone. Affairs are insecure and filled with thrilling drama. Affairs are more like addiction, not love, and those in love fog are like junkies who turn on people they once "loved" so they can have their fix with their new obsession -- and they must have their fix at any cost. Affairs are easy. All beginnings are exciting.

 

My view. Probably not a popular one.

[MissBee]

True love supports people to be at their highest. True love allows two people to join so they can turn out toward the world and extend love toward others. Everyone wins in true love and everyone is supported. Nothing is hidden. It's an open system. It's usually a calm, steady, balanced system. True love is kind to everyone, not just to one special someone. True love is the belief that we can only be lacking what we are not giving. True love is not always easy. It's the kind of thing BB's grandparents had. It can only be found with safe people.

Affairs never support people to act from their highest -- there's constant lying, deception, manipulation, isolation, specialness, and even attack. Affair deception causes APs to turn away in isolation from the world, not to join with the world. Affairs are a closed system. Affairs require someone to lose. All affairs lack empathy -- all of them -- causing people to harden and close toward one person in order to soften and open toward a "special" someone. Affairs are insecure and filled with thrilling drama. Affairs are more like addiction, not love, and those in love fog are like junkies who turn on people they once "loved" so they can have their fix with their new obsession -- and they must have their fix at any cost. Affairs are easy. All beginnings are exciting.

 

My view. Probably not a popular one.

 

I agree completely...and that is how my view of love has changed through an experiential learning.

 

I do believe that most people in the world never attain true love ...I would love to be able to say that my parents have true love for each other...but there's is not an example of true love. It's an example of being attached to someone and used to them, being fond of them but not even knowing what love is yourself further more being able to love another.

 

I am not very religious, but I like the Biblical idea of love as it resonates with me and a lot of other spiritual practice have that same conceptualization of love:

" Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

 

 

This is the love I have seen rarely, and when I see it, I admire it and want that for myself. I don't see affairs fitting into hat conception, especially the part about it not being self-seeking and rejoicing in the truth as by definition an affair hide the truth. If affairs and other such are love...well fine...however, that is just not the type of love I would like for myself. I've had it...and it's not satisfying to me and I would like to strive to get as close to the above as I can.

Edited June 28, 2011 by MissBee

[wheelwright]

Falling in love is addictive.

 

This implies falling in love (presumably with different people) again and again.

 

What room does that leave for true, lasting love?

 

The children analogy doesn't work, because we don't stop feeling love for one child when we have another, as most do when they fall in love with a new romantic partner.

 

If falling in love is held as an experience to value, and seek (addiction), how much value is given to staying in love?

 

I don't think it implies bolded. It is possible to fall in love more than once in a lifetime. I have only done it once so far. Staying in love I imagine to be par for the course if you truly fall in love with a 'safe' person.

 

Interestingly, many mothers expecting a second child fear that they will not be able to love this child as much as the first. This is an over-application of the exclusive love found commonly among adult love partners. They usually find their fears unfounded.

[wheelwright]

True love supports people to be at their highest. True love allows two people to join so they can turn out toward the world and extend love toward others. Everyone wins in true love and everyone is supported. Nothing is hidden. It's an open system. It's usually a calm, steady, balanced system. True love is kind to everyone, not just to one special someone. True love is the belief that we can only be lacking what we are not giving. True love is not always easy. It's the kind of thing BB's grandparents had. It can only be found with safe people.

 

Affairs never support people to act from their highest -- there's constant lying, deception, manipulation, isolation, specialness, and even attack. Affair deception causes APs to turn away in isolation from the world, not to join with the world. Affairs are a closed system. Affairs require someone to lose. All affairs lack empathy -- all of them -- causing people to harden and close toward one person in order to soften and open toward a "special" someone. Affairs are insecure and filled with thrilling drama. Affairs are more like addiction, not love, and those in love fog are like junkies who turn on people they once "loved" so they can have their fix with their new obsession -- and they must have their fix at any cost. Affairs are easy. All beginnings are exciting.

 

My view. Probably not a popular one.

 

IME, As are not easy. Quite the contrary. They are very upsetting.

 

I agree love in As is usually insecure. In fact until time and consistancy and comfortable acceptance come into play, all love beginnings are insecure. Roland Barthes describes this well in his A Lover's Discourse.

 

I believe that falling in love is transformational. If people have wound up in an attachment but not true love style M, unfortunately it is a transformation which will inevitably knock things sideways.

 

When we fall in love, we all hope to live out the ideal you outline. Some people (they are in the minority) do move on from an A situation to achieve this.

 

People in As have many fears. About hurting others, about changing their life, about trusting their own feelings and those of an AP. These are powerful motivators for deception to continue. i would have liked to shout my love from the rooftops, but xAP had these fears in spades.

 

Single people who fall in love have some of these fears too. The quest for the ideal you describe so well requires an almost unwavering dedication to and trust in your heart feelings. Over many years.

 

I do not see anything special about A love which precludes this trajectory. I would agree it doesn't make it especially likely either. The WSs are clearly people who have and can make fearful choices re their own hearts. Falling in love may not be enough to put them straight.

 

I am only talking here about As in which love exists. I believe some As occur without this being the case, and of course these will go nowhere fast. Some WSs do 'wake up' from a foggy dreamland.

[Silly_Girl]

Falling in love again (and again) with the same person is definitely possible.