should the guy pay ?

[zengirl]

While I notice if a woman pays or offers to pay on a first date, I don't give it as much thought as threads like this suggest that other people do. Life is too short to worry about the cost of a coffee or an ice cream, and if it's dinner then, well, life is too short to worry about that, too. If she wants to pay and makes this clear even after I've said "I'll get it" then I won't refuse her offer, and if it was some sort of test then I'm happy to 'fail' it by calling her bluff because I don't want to date women who play silly games like that.

 

Right. I agree with all of this being the normal course of things. Looks like we've had similar experiences. And tests are lame-o. I notice patterns, because observation is important to dealing with people in general, but I never try to provoke them. I don't actually think trying to provoke them or testing people gets the most accurate information anyway.

 

You are underestimating the act of paying. Paying is caring. How someone sees paying speaks a lot about that person such as whether that person is cheap or generous, inconsiderate or considerate, or holds traditional views or egalitarian views.

 

A good person wouldnt feel comfortable having someone else let alone a stranger paying for his/her expense.

 

I think good people learn to both give and accept gifts. Paying is thoughtful, of course; I assume that's what men think of it when they're paying---he is doing it to be thoughtful. I don't really have an attitude of entitlement and I can certainly buy my own dinner, but if someone offers a thoughtful gesture, I'm not going to insist they take it back. That seems weird.

 

I do feel uncomfortable with a man paying for it if I know I've no interest in going out again. That seems. . . unseemly.

 

Maybe. I call it "caring about more important things than who buys dinner", but then I'm single so perhaps this is what I'm doing wrong.

 

 

. My issue is more with women going on 1-4 dates and disappearing. I have experienced that and so have friends. This is largely with the younger crowd as well. I experience this much less as I have gotten older and dated women over 25. Though, the current gf is not quite 25 yet, she is very mature and considerate for her age. This may just be more of a NY thing as well. I also have female friends that have admitted to me that they really aren't sure about a guy they are dating, but want to try XYZ restaurant they can't afford so they give the guy another shot...right:rolleyes:.

 

Well, that sounds shady to me. So I'm down with being against that attitude. Really, I don't know any women who would go out with a guy they didn't like just to get a free meal. I do know some that will let the guy pay even if they don't intend to go out with him again, but they don't string it along after they know they're not interested.

 

And FTR I'd think the better way to avoid those gals would be stop trying to take girls to the snazziest restaurant in the world or whatever on a first date. First dates should be kind of laid back. I'm not saying suggest dinner at McDonalds, but a decent hole-in-the-wall/mid-priced place that isn't too crowded or hip is awesome for anyone who's really trying to get to know you.

 

I really suggest not planning fantastical early dates. My BF did plan some pretty cool 2nd and 3rd dates, but our 1st date was super basic. And I thought he was pretty silly for trying so hard with his date choices---I actually told him, I'd rather things that let me see HIM as the main focus of the date, not the activities, and that I really liked guys planning great things LATER in a relationship (I hate how men want to frontload the relationship with effort; it seems backwards to me). My BF wasn't frontloading; he's just kind of awesome, but some guys do.

[NursingGirl]

 

And FTR I'd think the better way to avoid those gals would be stop trying to take girls to the snazziest restaurant in the world or whatever on a first date. First dates should be kind of laid back. I'm not saying suggest dinner at McDonalds, but a decent hole-in-the-wall/mid-priced place that isn't too crowded or hip is awesome for anyone who's really trying to get to know you.

 

I really suggest not planning fantastical early dates. My BF did plan some pretty cool 2nd and 3rd dates, but our 1st date was super basic.

 

Yep. I agree with this. First dates are more "meetings" than dates. But one guy told me that he is making memories and would prefer to start out right. If I like a guy, I'm gonna remember the first time I am with him and what was said and body language and all of that stuff....not so much where we are (as long as I can hear him).

[NursingGirl]

 

The guy bristles and refuses? Why?

Call it romance. Call it courting or wooing but we all know damn well he might as well be holding up a sign that says "But Noooooo! I want to get laid tonight!" as though eating a free meal was the hottest thing ever and their date would be so overcome they'd just have to oblige!

 

 

 

Exactly where is he going to get his payback? In the restaurant parking lot? On first dates, I usually meet him there and say goodbye there. Do guys really expect they are going to get laid because they fed us? That IS stupid!

[NursingGirl]

So this one was for your benefit, not his.

 

 

 

 

Yeahhh. I admitted that to him. I also told him that he didn't have to wear it if he doesn't like it (of course). It's yummy though!

[Woggle]

I will gladly pay for a woman I am involved with but a woman I barely know will not get a dime from me. In theory I believe in chivalry but if woman want the old fashioned rules to apply they need to start making some changes in their approach as well.

[NursingGirl]

you women say you want confidence, well, confidence requires maintenance .

 

if i let myself be run over by women then that confidence will soon disappear. if i'm the one doing my part and she doesn't appreciate it enough to give a smile and a "thanks" when i pay for things, open doors, pull out chairs, do the activities she likes, etc, i have no reservations about walking away and looking for someone else knowing that it sure as hell wasn't my fault, with confidence intact.

 

 

Yep. You are cool.

[sally4sara]

Exactly where is he going to get his payback? In the restaurant parking lot? On first dates, I usually meet him there and say goodbye there. Do guys really expect they are going to get laid because they fed us? That IS stupid!

 

I started a thread a while back asking LS fellas what they would think if they went on date #1 and come end of meal they found the woman had already covered all the costs. And then again on date #2 and #3 and so on.

 

Go look if you're interested. It was chock full of guys saying they'd be suspicious and wonder what she was up to and what she wanted and that they'd feel emasculated and owned because who pays has "the power" like they normally live in some place called Greyskull when they pay the bill.

[zengirl]

And of course because it is an issue involving a double standard that benefits women, it is dismissed out of hand merely because it is redundant on a dating board, where the same issues will come up constantly. Somehow I don't see a bunch of posters, the usual suspects who claim to hate generalizations an discrimination of any type, the hypocrites, outcry about the sexist generalizations in the word "gentleman" which basically means "sucker." That a man should pay for even the first date is every bit as sexist as saying that women should all wait by the phone at home to be asked out.

 

I wasn't dismissing the topic out of hand (and actually engaged in it later). I just thought the OP's barely-sentence starter was kind of funny. Way to put your Anger Hat on though!

[Woggle]

After being with cheap assssholes, I refused to continue dating any man who did not wine and dine me. I have been with older (10+ years) men since I was 19. A man who makes more than a younger woman and lives a more affluent lifestyle, should NEVER ask the young woman to pay. The same goes for an older woman who makes more!

 

I was with this cheap, mean prick who never took me anywhere. I cooked for him and showed him so much love, all so he could dump me because my right arm was broken. After that, where dating was concerned, I always asked myself "What's in this FOR ME?"

 

If a man was kind enough to treat me the way I deserved, I rewarded him with laundry done, great meals and hot sex. If a man was cheap or complained about the costs of the date, I would not see him again. I had to develop the confidence and self esteem, to realize that I deserved to be treated like a princess.

 

My husband treated me like a lady when we met. We went to dinner, shows, movies and other nice activities. He never asked me to pay once. I paid for him after 2-3 months; I had to make sure he wasn't just like my ex.

 

I can see where you come from but many women look at a guy like this and see a person to take advantage of and use. Can you really blame a man for protecting himself?

[veggirl]

I think it should be even. I think taking turns paying for and planning the dates is ideal and a nice way to handle things. If he invites you out for the first date and pays, then the woman should offer to plan (and therefore also PAY) for the 2nd.

 

Grown @ss women referring to themselves as princesses or queens is seriously disturbing. I don't want a man to show he cares for me by buying me dinner. I want him to show it by calling me, saying nice things for me, being affection etc.

 

I don't like feeling like I have to be taken care of. I want to portray myself as someone who can AND DOES take care of herself. I am flattered when he offers to pay for dates I have planned, but I say no you can get the next one.

 

I would feel extremely awkward if we were 4-5 dates in and I hadn't paid for anything yet.

[sally4sara]

After being with cheap assssholes, I refused to continue dating any man who did not wine and dine me. I have been with older (10+ years) men since I was 19. A man who makes more than a younger woman and lives a more affluent lifestyle, should NEVER ask the young woman to pay. The same goes for an older woman who makes more!

 

I was with this cheap, mean prick who never took me anywhere. I cooked for him and showed him so much love, all so he could dump me because my right arm was broken. After that, where dating was concerned, I always asked myself "What's in this FOR ME?"

 

If a man was kind enough to treat me the way I deserved, I rewarded him with laundry done, great meals and hot sex. If a man was cheap or complained about the costs of the date, I would not see him again. I had to develop the confidence and self esteem, to realize that I deserved to be treated like a princess.

My husband treated me like a lady when we met. We went to dinner, shows, movies and other nice activities. He never asked me to pay once. I paid for him after 2-3 months; I had to make sure he wasn't just like my ex.

 

Princesses don't do laundry, or cook, and they just lay there under the pool boy.

[NursingGirl]

It was chock full of guys saying they'd be suspicious and wonder what she was up to and what she wanted and that they'd feel emasculated and owned because who pays has "the power"...

 

 

 

Ok, that's kinda weird. But it's interesting to see the different beliefs at work here, especially gender differences in beliefs.

 

I've been single since 2008 and I have never given this issue any thought! Apparently, I am either doing something wrong without being aware or doing something extremely right because no guy every mentioned it to me!

[NursingGirl]

....I rewarded him with laundry done, great meals and hot sex.

 

Now I DO have an issue with this being stereotypical. Why do you choose to "reward" him with typical gender specific role performance? And I never "reward" with hot sex. It goes without sayin that my SO gets hot sex. Wow....a reward system. *woof*

[Sanman]

Well, that sounds shady to me. So I'm down with being against that attitude. Really, I don't know any women who would go out with a guy they didn't like just to get a free meal. I do know some that will let the guy pay even if they don't intend to go out with him again, but they don't string it along after they know they're not interested.

 

And FTR I'd think the better way to avoid those gals would be stop trying to take girls to the snazziest restaurant in the world or whatever on a first date. First dates should be kind of laid back. I'm not saying suggest dinner at McDonalds, but a decent hole-in-the-wall/mid-priced place that isn't too crowded or hip is awesome for anyone who's really trying to get to know you.

 

I really suggest not planning fantastical early dates. My BF did plan some pretty cool 2nd and 3rd dates, but our 1st date was super basic. And I thought he was pretty silly for trying so hard with his date choices---I actually told him, I'd rather things that let me see HIM as the main focus of the date, not the activities, and that I really liked guys planning great things LATER in a relationship (I hate how men want to frontload the relationship with effort; it seems backwards to me). My BF wasn't frontloading; he's just kind of awesome, but some guys do.

 

As I mentioned earlier, it really isn't about disliking the guy and outright taking advantage. That is a special kind of mean. Usually, it has to do with women not even considering the money. Usually, a girl will be talking to us and saying that the guy seems nice and they had a fun time out, but she's not really sure if he is her type. But OMG, he wants to take her to XYZ restaurant and is really sweet...maybe she'll see him again:rolleyes:. She is simply taking her time (and his money) deciding if she wants a relationship with him. I find this behavior more rationalizing to herself that she likes him for the experience and nice treatment rather than being considerate of the poor guy and cutting him loose. This is similar (to me) to the girls you mentioned that will let a guy pay even if they are not seeing him again. Similarly, I had an ex-gf who while we were walking to the restaurant on our first date such going to another (much more expensive) restaurant next door that she had been meaning to try. I don't think it ever even crossed her mind that I may not want to spend that much money on a first date. Then again, her poor handling of money was a big reason for our break up a few months later.

 

I have mentioned the math before and will again. One dinner date a week for a man at an inexpensive place ($50) is still $2500/yr and may never even produce a relationship. It is a lot of wasted money.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Sanman

[zengirl]

As I mentioned earlier, it really isn't about disliking the guy and outright taking advantage. That is a special kind of mean. Usually, it has to do with women not even considering the money. Usually, a girl will be talking to us and saying that the guy seems nice and they had a fun time out, but she's not really sure if he is her type. But OMG, he wants to take her to XYZ restaurant and is really sweet...maybe she'll see him again:rolleyes:. She is simply taking her time (and his money) deciding if she wants a relationship with him. I find this behavior more rationalizing to herself that she likes him for the experience and nice treatment rather than being considerate of the poor guy and cutting him loose. This is similar (to me) to the girls you mentioned that will let a guy pay even if they are not seeing him again.

 

It's not the same to me because they wouldn't go out with him AGAIN knowing they weren't into it. But I get what you're saying with the self-denial as well. But I don't condone either behavior, personally. So: preach it.

 

Similarly, I had an ex-gf who while we were walking to the restaurant on our first date such going to another (much more expensive) restaurant next door that she had been meaning to try. I don't think it ever even crossed her mind that I may not want to spend that much money on a first date. Then again, her poor handling of money was a big reason for our break up a few months later.

 

I'm a deal-seeker. And I tend to date men who are more spendy than I am. So that kind of behavior, even in a guy who was paying, might spark my red flags. Someone who doesn't think about money --- their own or other people's --- bothers me; we wouldn't have the same values. I always know the good deal around town!

 

Half the time, my BF waves me away when I try to pay for something he says, "You save me so much money anyway!" because I'm always suggesting cheap or free things to do around town he'd never know about. But I also just make a lot less than most men I meet, since I work for an education nonprofit at the moment. Therefore, it seems like most BFs want to go to the places they could afford but I really don't think I could (comfortably), and I'm fine with letting them pay in that case. Though I would dislike a guy who was seeking out those places and COULDN'T really afford it. I don't like the idea of anyone living beyond their means or not considering money at all.

Edited July 27, 2011 by zengirl

[Sanman]

It's not the same to me because they wouldn't go out with him AGAIN knowing they weren't into it. But I get what you're saying with the self-denial as well. But I don't condone either behavior, personally. So: preach it.

 

 

The reason I think of it as similar is that if you are on an early date and you are unsure of whether it will work out, agree to something that you are comfortable paying half for if it does not work out and do so. I don't think I have ever had a bad reaction if a woman said it was nice meeting me, but was not interested and wanted to pay her share. I would appreciate it. Then again, if it is not made clear the guy can easily take it as the wallet game that women who are interested can play. Bottom line for me is that it is more about being considerate of others and honest than anything else. I would more than likely still pay if a woman was honest and the bill was reasonable. It is the dishonesty and inconsiderate behavior that gets to me.Try going home after a crappy date and then being out $50 for the experience. I'd rather save that money and spend it on a woman that deserves it!

 

I'm a deal-seeker too!

Edited July 27, 2011 by Sanman

[EasyHeart]

Is this perhaps another online dating phenomenon?

 

I can't conceive of a date where I'm not attracted to the woman or don't have a little something in common with her. I asked her out, so I must be attracted to her! Also, I've never had a first date every day of the week and rarely have ever had more than one a week, so the "expenses add up" thing just doesn't wash with me.

 

But if you're meeting people on the internet, don't know what they look like, don't know what kind of personality they have, and have to go on a "date" just to get a look at them, then I can see where it would be a problem.

[Sanman]

Is this perhaps another online dating phenomenon?

 

I can't conceive of a date where I'm not attracted to the woman or don't have a little something in common with her. I asked her out, so I must be attracted to her! Also, I've never had a first date every day of the week and rarely have ever had more than one a week, so the "expenses add up" thing just doesn't wash with me.

 

But if you're meeting people on the internet, don't know what they look like, don't know what kind of personality they have, and have to go on a "date" just to get a look at them, then I can see where it would be a problem.

 

It may be an online dating thing as I am referring to online dates regarding these issues. However, a girl from a bar can have them too. Who is talking everyday. Once a week for a year 50 weeks X $50= $2500.

[zengirl]

The reason I think of it as similar is that if you are on an early date and you are unsure of whether it will work out, agree to something that you are comfortable paying half for if it does not work out and do so. I don't think I have ever had a bad reaction if a woman said it was nice meeting me, but was not interested and wanted to pay her share. I would appreciate it. Then again, if it is not made clear the guy can easily take it as the wallet game that women who are interested can play. Bottom line for me is that it is more about being considerate of others and honest than anything else. I would more than likely still pay if a woman was honest and the bill was reasonable. It is the dishonesty and inconsiderate behavior that gets to me.Try going home after a crappy date and then being out $50 for the experience. I'd rather save that money and spend it on a woman that deserves it!

 

I'm a deal-seeker too!

 

I totally understand. A lot of times, I don't tell the guy I'm not interested right then and there (I will certainly be honest if they call me for another date) so I just pay. It's not meant for them to know I'm not interested, because (a) sometimes I really am unsure, but that goes 99% of the time towards no next date, and (b) I've told a guy on a date before I wasn't interested in him and been screamed at in a restaurant for it! Weirdo!

 

But there are some guys I genuinely wanted to be friends with, from online, who I felt weren't "feeling it" either and I expressed that honestly. And in a couple cases, we really did become friends: no chemistry on either side (no paying either obviously!) and lots of common ground. But I really don't like being yelled at in a restaurant for telling a guy the truth. So I'm perhaps a bit more cowardly and wait to see if he calls. (I never lie and say I want to go out again when I don't, though.)

[musemaj11]

HEY! We agree on something!

Yup, we agree that you obviously are not the caring type.

[KR10N]

I think dinner costs should be split 50/50. It's fair. Plus, I really don't want some guy to hand his cash over because of me. I hate being an inconvenience.

[Audrina]

It's not an issue to me, with friends or with a boyfriend. Whoever pays, is whoever pays or we split it. Sometimes it's me, sometimes it's him, sometimes we split it. I'm not keeping track because it doesn't matter.

[NursingGirl]

Yup, we agree that you obviously are not the caring type.

 

We don't agree on that.

[sassybetch]

i'm old fashioned, i believe in romance and chivalry and all that good stuff. i like doing the stereotypical woman stuff too. i like classic gender roles. i like when the man feels like a man when he can provide, and the woman feeling like a woman. i feel like relationships these days are turning sour, because ppl are confusing their gender roles.

 

i feel like people attract the type of people they want or need in their life. for instance i have never had to pay for a date before, i have offered, but have been turned down. i have had 3 bfs in my life and they always paid for me. even when i had dates with random people, i still never had to pay. i think that the man should court a woman, and pay for the dates, because thats how it is. and men should stop being cheap. women give back to men in diff ways. like hello, women have to birth children, is that fair? lol

 

thank god, my bf is a gentleman he treats me so well, and i love him to pieces and i do so much for him as he does for me. for instance, i show him love in ways that cant be paid for, i am his emotional support, his friend, his confidant, i am the female energy that he needs.

 

men and woman do different things in relationships and thats how i like it.

[Feelsgoodman]

on dates or say your going to a hotel , your views. i think they should to show their appreciation of the girl , at least for the first 6 months or so

Ummm, no. I'm already doing her a favor by taking time out of my busy schedule to see her. If I wanted to pay for a woman, I'd hire a professional.