should the guy pay ?

[sally4sara]

and completely irrelevant to the thread. Physical and mental well being have nothing at all to do with whether a man should be expected to pay for a woman during early dating.

 

Take that up with the fella that compared not getting the relationship of his dreams handed over to him after an outdated, self serving act such as paying the tab for dinner on a date, with getting raped.

[zengirl]

Nor is comparing expectations that a man pay for early dates to getting raped, reamed, conned, gypped, taken advantage of, robbed, cheated, ripped off, scammed, swindled, etc. an invitation to shift the thread topic over to the actual crime of rape or physical harm in general, despite that's business as usual for men who try to discuss issues important to men with women. We are used to it, and that's why we don't care to discuss anything important with many of you IRL.

 

It's not like s4s was trying to prove her point with a strawman. She's actually a big proponent of not letting men pay for ****. Conversations naturally evolve is all . . .

 

But I can see why life would give you lots to be bitter about with your attitude.

[sally4sara]

Nor is comparing expectations that a man pay for early dates to getting raped, reamed, conned, gypped, taken advantage of, robbed, cheated, ripped off, scammed, swindled, etc. an invitation to shift the thread topic over to the actual crime of rape or physical harm in general, despite that's business as usual for men who try to discuss issues important to men with women. We are used to it, and that's why we don't care to discuss anything important with many of you IRL.

 

Oh that's right I forgot; you're our new moderator AND you speak for all men everywhere!

Only someone who never has to worry about rape would compare it to paying the tab. How do I know? Because I've paid the tab before and I have to worry about rape. Guess which one I spend more energy worrying about? Comparing paying the tab to getting raped is irrational, but I, for my gender, can't discuss anything important? I hope your parents using the silver thread method of circumcision on you is the reason why your such a pill on here concerning all these first world problems we seem to love discussing. Sorry I got too weighty on you; I'll go back to dumbing it down just for you.....

 

P.S. Nice aim there with your list of synonyms for rape. Is this like black people using the n word to take its power away?

 

Here I am agreeing men should not pay the tab and dating should be dutch but I have a vagina so I shouldn't contribute. I wouldn't have anything useful to add to dating advise - how is your love life? Oh yeah I forgot, you hate how she is always on about patriarchy to the point of ending a 7 year relationship but upset when your "why men are bitter" thread disappears.

[mtber75]

I don't understand why some women expect us to PAY? That's like expecting sex after each time I pay! At least be courteous and offer to partially pay!

[azsinglegal]

I don't understand why some women expect us to PAY? That's like expecting sex after each time I pay! At least be courteous and offer to partially pay!

 

I guess it's just one of those courtesy things when dating. I'm guessing by your response you're fairly young. I don't think younger generations follow the "rules of courting a woman" the same as us older folks (30+).

 

I've been seeing the same guy for over 3 months now and I've still never paid for anything. He always insists on paying. Even when I make him dinner, he wants to buy the groceries - but I don't let him by buying them first. Even though I know I'm going to hear about it.

[Sanman]

A thread on LS getting out of hand and off topic? I am shocked!

 

Seriously though, it isn't about being bitter to all women. I am not bitter toward my gf at all and know how lucky I am to have found her. She actually insists we split everything and likes paying for herself. I treat and get her little gifts to make up for that. The issue is not bittereness, but rather not knowing the intentions of a woman. I f I trust you, I am happy to pay. However, I do not like being taken for a ride.

 

Zengirl,

 

I know very few guys who would insist a woman split the tab. However, there are a number of guys that who will call it a strike against them. I, personally, never make an issue out of i and will pay a bill if a woman does not bring up splitting it or offer to pay for something. However, she most likely will not be hearing from me again. I know other guys who would say the same. I will also take a girl up on an offer to split the check and call her and ask her out again if I am interested. If she is turned off by that. it is fine with me. I take it as a sign of how you will continue to treat my finances in a relationship. Until I am married or close to it, finances are not a shared thing. I am happy to treat a gf or date as a show of good will, but it should not be expected of me. It should be considered a treat, just as anyone else would consider it such if I paid for them.

[azsinglegal]

A thread on LS getting out of hand and off topic? I am shocked!

 

Seriously though, it isn't about being bitter to all women. I am not bitter toward my gf at all and know how lucky I am to have found her. She actually insists we split everything and likes paying for herself. I treat and get her little gifts to make up for that. The issue is not bittereness, but rather not knowing the intentions of a woman. I f I trust you, I am happy to pay. However, I do not like being taken for a ride.

 

Zengirl,

 

I know very few guys who would insist a woman split the tab. However, there are a number of guys that who will call it a strike against them. I, personally, never make an issue out of i and will pay a bill if a woman does not bring up splitting it or offer to pay for something. However, she most likely will not be hearing from me again. I know other guys who would say the same. I will also take a girl up on an offer to split the check and call her and ask her out again if I am interested. If she is turned off by that. it is fine with me. I take it as a sign of how you will continue to treat my finances in a relationship. Until I am married or close to it, finances are not a shared thing. I am happy to treat a gf or date as a show of good will, but it should not be expected of me. It should be considered a treat, just as anyone else would consider it such if I paid for them.

 

Wait a tick...you won't go on a second date with a girl if she doesn't OFFER to split the bill? Really?

[zengirl]

Zengirl,

 

I know very few guys who would insist a woman split the tab. However, there are a number of guys that who will call it a strike against them. I, personally, never make an issue out of i and will pay a bill if a woman does not bring up splitting it or offer to pay for something. However, she most likely will not be hearing from me again. I know other guys who would say the same. I will also take a girl up on an offer to split the check and call her and ask her out again if I am interested. If she is turned off by that. it is fine with me. I take it as a sign of how you will continue to treat my finances in a relationship. Until I am married or close to it, finances are not a shared thing. I am happy to treat a gf or date as a show of good will, but it should not be expected of me. It should be considered a treat, just as anyone else would consider it such if I paid for them.

 

I have no issues with your POV on the matter and think it totally sensible, FTR. I certainly always offer, as I said. In America, I have only lived in the South. It may be a whole different kettle of fish than NYC and certainly is in many respects.

 

I'm not turned off by a guy not taking the initiative to pay the check, so long as there are no signs that he sees me as casual in some way. (Not that paying = not casual, but I've noticed that the only guys who don't insist---that 1/10th---tend to be the ones not into the idea of a relationship with me, but would be happy to keep dating, do a FWB or STR type thing with me. That's just the experience I've had, though.)

 

I certainly think a guy offering to pay, turning down a girl's offer to pay her way, and then holding it against her = crazy person. The woman shouldn't have to forcibly insist! But I think you're saying you'd hold it against a girl who took it for granted and didn't offer? That seems normal to me.

[rafallus]

Let's put it this way:

 

if someone makes any drama about splitting the bill, or paying up, he/she's got his/her priorities wrong. I thought date/meeting is about having fun with person, not arguing over who should pay.

[sally4sara]

I guess it's just one of those courtesy things when dating. I'm guessing by your response you're fairly young. I don't think younger generations follow the "rules of courting a woman" the same as us older folks (30+).

 

I've been seeing the same guy for over 3 months now and I've still never paid for anything. He always insists on paying. Even when I make him dinner, he wants to buy the groceries - but I don't let him by buying them first. Even though I know I'm going to hear about it.

 

I'm 37. Age is no excuse for not growing up into a fully capable adult. And being a fully capable adult is not something that rests on whether or not you have a date.

What adult brags about buying the groceries for a meal they choose to cook?! You're going to have to cook yourself something even if he isn't coming over yeah? Do you brag to yourself about buying those groceries?

I know I'm busting your chops a bit here but at least consider why you put paying for the groceries in the defense category for why its okay that he always pays the tab. If you and your female co worker went to lunch once or twice a week and you always had to pay, would you think much of it if she bragged about buying the groceries for the dinner she invited you over to eat? Would you call it a wash?

 

Think about it.

[carhill]

At some point, with each person's perception being unique, it becomes a dynamic of 'letting you pay for it' and 'letting you care' and 'letting you love', effected by a lack of balance of attention, affection,reciprocation, intimacy, or whatever metrics one chooses to apply. The dynamic becomes imbalanced and unhealthy. For myself, after a few dates, I assess this dynamic, having been taken for many a 'ride' in life. If no joy, move on. EOS>

[azsinglegal]

I'm 37. Age is no excuse for not growing up into a fully capable adult. And being a fully capable adult is not something that rests on whether or not you have a date.

What adult brags about buying the groceries for a meal they choose to cook?! You're going to have to cook yourself something even if he isn't coming over yeah? Do you brag to yourself about buying those groceries?

I know I'm busting your chops a bit here but at least consider why you put paying for the groceries in the defense category for why its okay that he always pays the tab. If you and your female co worker went to lunch once or twice a week and you always had to pay, would you think much of it if she bragged about buying the groceries for the dinner she invited you over to eat? Would you call it a wash?

 

Think about it.

 

Buying groceries to go to his house and make him dinner, not at my own. Guess I didn't state that clearly enough.

[sally4sara]

Buying groceries to go to his house and make him dinner, not at my own. Guess I didn't state that clearly enough.

 

Ok, so she comes to your place and brags about buying the groceries for the meal she cooks at your place after you've footed the bill for who knows how many lunches - even stevens? You see her as being as generous as yourself?

 

Why does the location matter? It being at some place that isn't your home only makes it that much easier to get out of cleaning up the cooking mess.

[Sanman]

Wait a tick...you won't go on a second date with a girl if she doesn't OFFER to split the bill? Really?

 

That is correct. I don't need to her to grab the bill out of my hand and brow beat me, but at least offer to either split the bill or pay for coffee or something. I would like to know some gratitude is shown. I have enough options as this is not an issue for me. However, this goes beyond dating for me. One's choice of spouse is the biggest predictor of financial success outside of your personal career choice. Money is also one of the biggest arguments couples have. I refuse to seriously consider anyone who does not live within their means and have good control of their finances as a long-term spouse. This includes respect for my finances. Just because I ill be making a six figure salary shortly does not mean that anyone who I date is entitled to spend that on themselves. You would be surprised how many secretaries or low paid employees I know driving BMWs and carrying Gucci, Louis Vuitton, etc.

[Woggle]

I admit I am doing very well but there were times I was damn near homeless. I come from the hard knocks and am glad I am not there anymore.

 

In these times and in this economy most people can't afford to just make more money again. I am not comparing it to rape but losing money can very well send a person to the poor house. It's better for a man to filter out the gold diggers before it happens.

[sally4sara]

I admit I am doing very well but there were times I was damn near homeless. I come from the hard knocks and am glad I am not there anymore.

 

In these times and in this economy most people can't afford to just make more money again. I am not comparing it to rape but losing money can very well send a person to the poor house. It's better for a man to filter out the gold diggers before it happens.

 

Gold digger is just a feminized name for a small time con artist. Shouldn't we all be on the look out for someone trying to run a con on us?

[Challenger]

It's interesting to me that you think you should be shown appreciation for just simply going out with him. I love how some women want to be treated equal to men in every aspect of life except when it comes to datiing. I use to be guilty of this until I learned to respect myself more then I respected a girl that I just met. I love being generous with my girl but respect must be established first.

[Woggle]

Gold digger is just a feminized name for a small time con artist. Shouldn't we all be on the look out for someone trying to run a con on us?

 

True but divorce courts make it very easy for women to pull this con off so men have to watch out because we have no legal protection in this area.

[grkBoy]

on dates or say your going to a hotel , your views. i think they should to show their appreciation of the girl , at least for the first 6 months or so

 

I think a GENTLEMAN will pay for the first few dates out of etiquette and chivalry.

 

I would tell you that if a woman doesn't even offer within the first few dates, then take that as a red flag. Seen some girls who seriously believe a woman should never pay...and will even give flack to other girls who do.

[delilah123]

im quite old fashioned, my guy and i of 3 years ... well he still gets the movie tickets and our takeout usually, if we go to an expensive resteruant we go halves, unless he specifically wanted to take me out on a date. i tend to buy him little gifts more often then he does me though so i think it sort of evens out.

 

i dont really remember what the money was like when we first started dating, but i dont think its ever been an issue. I offer to go halves unless im feeling pretty broke and he offers to go halves unless he is broke. If he has no money and i want to do an activity i pay for it. It's usually like... if we go to the movies he'll get the tickets (which come to say 20 bucks) and ill get the lollies (come to around 10)...

 

he doesn't think the girl should pay though, he thinks it's polite to offer but no way is some chick taking care of him haha. i like him that way though (not in a money hungry way), just because i like him being old fashioned

[zengirl]

That is correct. I don't need to her to grab the bill out of my hand and brow beat me, but at least offer to either split the bill or pay for coffee or something. I would like to know some gratitude is shown. I have enough options as this is not an issue for me. However, this goes beyond dating for me. One's choice of spouse is the biggest predictor of financial success outside of your personal career choice. Money is also one of the biggest arguments couples have. I refuse to seriously consider anyone who does not live within their means and have good control of their finances as a long-term spouse. This includes respect for my finances.

 

That all seems entirely reasonable. And I seriously think you need to be at least reasonably close on money (particularly how you feel about debt) to date someone. I've certainly dated men who were less deal savvy than me, but I'd never date someone who didn't have good control of his finances and understand how to live within his means.

 

Part of that means respecting your partner's means as well. So, if you're asking random girls whose finances you don't know out, taking them to fancy places you suggest, and expecting them to pay the split when it might literally be outside their price range, that's not cool either FTR.

 

And that's why you don't suggest fancy places for early dates!

 

Yes, Mr. Man, if you don't want to pay me, you are bitter and have a bad attitude in addition to hating all women. It's amazing how you people all call from the same playbook, despite in your case how deeply you bury the attitude in walls of text. It comes out eventually.

 

Yeah, that's not the part of your attitude I was talking about. And though I detailed some patterns, I certainly never said guys had to pay. I mean more the vitriol you bring into every thread and how you make it all about some kind of gender war all the time and tell sally4sara (ironically probably the staunchest defender of your cause, if you don't want to pay for dinner---I believe she says she wouldn't even LET a man buy her dinner during the early dating stages --- if she didn't have her hubby, I mean --- on principle) what she can and can't talk about and such.

[musemaj11]

I don't think there is any "right way". Whatever someone is comfortable with is the right way for that person. What do you say Pierre?

There is indeed no right way. Except men who see that expecting them to pay is sexist still get insulted and attacked regardless.

[musemaj11]

I'm not turned off by a guy not taking the initiative to pay the check, so long as there are no signs that he sees me as casual in some way. (Not that paying = not casual, but I've noticed that the only guys who don't insist---that 1/10th---tend to be the ones not into the idea of a relationship with me, but would be happy to keep dating, do a FWB or STR type thing with me. That's just the experience I've had, though.)

You women just dont get it, do you?

 

Due to social conditioning, men are inherent providers. We all like to pay and be generous to people we care about (lovers, friends, family).

 

All the men who are complaining about the expectation of men to pay for women are simply fighting against the principle. We are fighting against the idea, the double standard.

 

Its like deep down most women actually like to be homemakers, taking care of the house. But none of them will be happy if they are told that working around the house is their job as a woman anyway and asking men to help around the house is unwomanly because as a woman, they are supposed to treat their men like a king and wait on them at home.

 

Would you be happy if a man told you that its your responsibility as a woman to work around the house and wait on him even if you do like to do those things?

 

Unlike my father, I dont see it the job of women to work around the house and wait on me. So Im unhappy when Im being told that I have a certain job I have to do toward women simply because of my gender.

 

I dont comprehend why this seems so hard for a lot of women to understand.

[thatone]

actually that's not really it at all, and i think you look too much into it.

 

by your logic, you would refuse to let men open doors for you, because it suggests they are stronger than you are physically. well they are physically stronger, that's just how it is. we didn't design ourselves.

 

and yes, men like the role of provider. that's what we're told to do, we have to do it. men don't have the option of staying in school til they're 30 (for the most part), or being a stay at home spouse, or having women pay for our entertainment. even if it were possible, and it's typically not unless you prey on very unstable women, it's not socially acceptable for men to be without a job that can pay their own bills.

 

if you want to be financially independent in relationships that's fine, and i doubt most men would have a problem with that, but you have enough power as it is. men approach you, you are the one who says yes or no. not the other way around.

 

you can't demand confident/stable men on the one hand and demand to have control over them at the same time. see point in other thread about women wanting contradictory qualities that they will never find. it applies to your opinion.

[Sanman]

That all seems entirely reasonable. And I seriously think you need to be at least reasonably close on money (particularly how you feel about debt) to date someone. I've certainly dated men who were less deal savvy than me, but I'd never date someone who didn't have good control of his finances and understand how to live within his means.

 

Part of that means respecting your partner's means as well. So, if you're asking random girls whose finances you don't know out, taking them to fancy places you suggest, and expecting them to pay the split when it might literally be outside their price range, that's not cool either FTR.

 

And that's why you don't suggest fancy places for early dates!

 

 

 

Agreed on that. I have only ever suggested one fancy place to eat on a first date and happily picked up the tab on that because I had not been to a nice place in a while and wanted some company. I usually give a woman a few date options and her comeback suggestion is often some fancy wine/cocktail bar. I usually prefer the cheaper and less fancy stuff anyway. I can clean up fine, but hole-in-the-wall ethnic food is where I can usually be found.