should the guy pay ?

[sally4sara]

and yes, men like the role of provider. that's what we're told to do, we have to do it. men don't have the option of staying in school til they're 30 (for the most part), or being a stay at home spouse, or having women pay for our entertainment. even if it were possible, and it's typically not unless you prey on very unstable women, it's not socially acceptable for men to be without a job that can pay their own bills.

 

if you want to be financially independent in relationships that's fine, and i doubt most men would have a problem with that, but you have enough power as it is. men approach you, you are the one who says yes or no. not the other way around.

 

you can't demand confident/stable men on the one hand and demand to have control over them at the same time. see point in other thread about women wanting contradictory qualities that they will never find. it applies to your opinion.

 

While I think J200 worries about it a bit more than she probably needs to, she doesn't have to wait for a man to approach her. She can handle things how she wants and a guy would probably have to be pretty confident to be with her and not feel usurped.

 

I don't know where you live but I sure didn't have the luxury of staying in school till I was 30. Women have to pay their bills too; the power company won't be understanding if a woman tells them they lost their job and can't pay the bill. I'm never been invited to a charity event for raising rent money for some woman who lost her job so its not socially accepted for them either. Women can ask out as many men they want to ask out. No one gets to decide for them how much "power" is enough for them to hold; whoever she is, she can decide that without checking in with some fella on the matter. The really funny (and when I say funny I mean kinda sad) truth of that matter is a woman could probably do just about whatever the eff she wants and there will still be some guy wanting to spend time with her for a chance to get laid.

Its 2011. You can be a stay at home parent if you'd like. There is one that walks his kid and dog past our place every day. No one is chasing him down the street throwing rocks and telling him to get a job. It is also fine if you and the person you date trade off on dating expenses. Plenty of couples do it so yes, it is okay for a woman to pay for your entertainment. Of course you will thank her by thinking she is emotionally unstable so I'm not sure why anyone would want to in your case.

[zengirl]

You women just dont get it, do you?

 

Due to social conditioning, men are inherent providers. We all like to pay and be generous to people we care about (lovers, friends, family).

 

Huh? I think I actually just wrote about the patterns and social conditioning. So. . . while I don't agree with the exact phrasing of what you believe the conditioning to be, I was talking about almost exactly that!

 

And I never spoke to the expectation of men to pay. I don't expect men to pay, but it does seem (historically) most of the (again AMERICAN; it's not the same everywhere) men I date who are relationship-oriented and see me as LTR material will WANT to pay despite my offering. That's the part of my post I quoted. The men who took me up on my offer (who I'm not at all upset at for it) were the men who weren't feeling it or weren't seeking LTRs. I was basically saying that made sense from a socialization perspective.

 

All the men who are complaining about the expectation of men to pay for women are simply fighting against the principle. We are fighting against the idea, the double standard.

 

You really don't need to stage a sit in. If you don't want to pay, don't pay. I don't know too many girls (nice girls) who don't offer to pay their way at least. If a girl doesn't offer, be like Sanman and don't ask her out again! Hell, call her out on it if you want; she's not what you're looking for anyway, right? If she holds your not paying against you, she's not what you're looking for anyway, right?

 

You can choose the standards by which you live your life, and I would invite you to do so. It's much more fun.

 

Its like deep down most women actually like to be homemakers, taking care of the house.

 

Most women in my generation were not socialized this way, so I'd disagree with you.

 

Would you be happy if a man told you that its your responsibility as a woman to work around the house and wait on him even if you do like to do those things?

 

Well, I don't like to do those things. I work, and I work 50 hours a week usually. I do work in a "nurturing" profession, and in some ways, I'm a natural "nurturer" in some ways, but I'd be a crap housewife. My socialization is much more complex than that, as is my personality, so I can't say. However, you quoted me, and I have, at no time, told men it was their "responsibility" to pay on dates. Not even close. I said I always offer, that I in fact insist if I'm not going to say yes to the next date (so the guy doesn't feel doubly crappy about it), and detailed a pattern (only in American men) that usually the men who would take me up on my offer readily are the guys who aren't that into me. I didn't say they were bad guys (some are, some aren't, but that's true of the guys that wouldn't) but they aren't looking for a LTR with me. Which was really just likely referring to a component of their socialization.

 

You clearly aren't taking the socialization they have and/or have never met a girl you really liked, I'm not sure which. That's fine. Again: you choose the standards by which you live, for the most part, in this country.

Edited July 29, 2011 by zengirl

[musemaj11]

Huh?

Im not really specifically speaking to you, but more to women in general.

 

Im just saying that times and again we hear about women here saying that in real life they find that men always want to pay despite many men here complaining about paying. And to this notion, I explain that the reason for this is because due to upbringing, men are 'wired to want to pay and provide' even if they think they dont like what they are doing. Its instinctive.

 

No matter how much I say and feel about my hate for paying on dates, when I do go on a date, I will still want to pay because it is an instinctive urge. I just cant help it and I bet its the same with all the other guys who complain about paying.

 

Its not that we are complaining about paying on dates, because again due to how we were brought up, we do like to pay. What we are complaining about is the idea that most women still believe that we have the responsibility to court them and pay for them simply due to our gender and if we dont do that, we are seen as less of a man. This is pure sexism, akin to a view that working around the house is a woman's job and if you dont do that, you are not a woman.

 

Y'all the few women on this forum who say that you dont expect a man to pay on dates can say whatever you want. But its a fact that the majority of women still see a man paying as a responsibility and get turned off if a man doesnt pay.

[thatone]

While I think J200 worries about it a bit more than she probably needs to, she doesn't have to wait for a man to approach her. She can handle things how she wants and a guy would probably have to be pretty confident to be with her and not feel usurped.

 

you're proving my point. women like J200 say they want confident/stable men and then go on and on about what they "can" do which pretty much adds up to whatever they want, while expecting men to bow to their whims. well, you can't have it both ways.

 

men have roles in relationships, and those roles are the ones that most women accept. you cannot simply declare that those roles should change and expect men to start acting differently, because dating and relationships are a numbers game for men and they will continue to do what most women approve of.

 

I don't know where you live but I sure didn't have the luxury of staying in school till I was 30. Women have to pay their bills too; the power company won't be understanding if a woman tells them they lost their job and can't pay the bill. I'm never been invited to a charity event for raising rent money for some woman who lost her job so its not socially accepted for them either. Women can ask out as many men they want to ask out. No one gets to decide for them how much "power" is enough for them to hold; whoever she is, she can decide that without checking in with some fella on the matter. The really funny (and when I say funny I mean kinda sad) truth of that matter is a woman could probably do just about whatever the eff she wants and there will still be some guy wanting to spend time with her for a chance to get laid.

Its 2011. You can be a stay at home parent if you'd like. There is one that walks his kid and dog past our place every day. No one is chasing him down the street throwing rocks and telling him to get a job. It is also fine if you and the person you date trade off on dating expenses. Plenty of couples do it so yes, it is okay for a woman to pay for your entertainment. Of course you will thank her by thinking she is emotionally unstable so I'm not sure why anyone would want to in your case.

 

a LOT of women live off of their parents well into their late 20s until they find a husband to support them. as for where i live, in a city with a large university and two university hospitals, which denotes a large population of medical related students. there are a lot of women around here who have either multiple degrees and have never worked at 28-30 years old, or who have spent 10 years getting their first degree and have never worked at 28-30.

 

no, i can't be a stay at home spouse. you can, but i can't. it is not socially acceptable for men to be unemployed for any length of time. if i stopped working and let a woman support me i would lose the approval of every other man i know, and at the very least, the approval of the vast majority of the woman in question's family as well. and i won't easily replace her family, so the arrangement would be short lived. she would eventually buckle to the pressure of family and friends and find someone else. and then i would be worse off than i was before i met her, because i will have lost male friends and colleagues in the process. and without a stable income once that relationship ended, i would not easily find another woman because the vast majority of women will reject a man who does not provide for himself.

 

a woman who winds up back at home with her parents after a failed marriage or long term relationship in which she didn't work is unfortunate. a man who does the same thing is a loser. this is the way the vast majority of people, both men and women, think. you cannot arbitrarily declare that situation to be different or not exist, it's reality.

Edited July 29, 2011 by thatone

[sally4sara]

you're proving my point. women like J200 say they want confident/stable men and then go on and on about what they "can" do which pretty much adds up to whatever they want, while expecting men to bow to their whims. well, you cant have it both waysy.

 

Well thank goodness not everyone thinks like you and limits themselves to the expectations of others. If that was how things really worked, we'd still think the earth was flat and it was okay to own slaves. Women wouldn't be able to vote or swim and germs would still be thought the work of demons. I define what is acceptable to me; not what is acceptable to everyone else. Try it sometime. Its quite freeing.

[thatone]

Well thank goodness not everyone thinks like you and limits themselves to the expectations of others......I define what is acceptable to me; not what is acceptable to everyone else. Try it sometime. Its quite freeing.

 

i did try it, just like most other people did in their younger years.

 

then i grew up and had to decide what i was going to do the rest of my life.

 

it just so happens that most people accept my way, not your way, other women included.

[zengirl]

Im not really specifically speaking to you, but more to women in general.

 

Okay. Well (a) you quoted me and (b) you said "You women don't get it" --- I am both the "you" in question and a woman, so it certainly seemed like it.

 

Also, speaking to women "in general" doesn't work. There's your whole problem. We are not an "in general." We are a vast group of individuals with very differing opinions on this and other matters---in this thread, for instance, you have many points and opinions along a spectrum: some women who say men should pay, some women who'd never even LET a guy pay if he wanted to, and plenty of room in between.

 

Just like not all men feel the same way about this issue. Or any other issue.

[jdubinva]

I started a thread about this last night. I went on a date yesterday and was planning to pay with no expectations. She did not ever once say thank you for the dinner or anything. We had a kiss and that was nice and agreed on a 2nd and I've heard from her today. Rude behavior sucks! I'd rather be celibate than date someone who lacks common courtesies.

[zengirl]

No. There is a clear position here that I think a vast majority of men would agree with, I've already posted it and it was largely ignored. I think almost all men (and true feminists as opposed to misandrists in feminist clothing) could readily agree that despite whatever a couple works out, who pays for early dates and why they do or don't, that the general social/cultural expectation that men should pay for early dates because they are men and their dates are women needs to go because it is plainly sexist.

 

Until that archaic, ingrained expectation goes away, men will continue to be extorted for fear of being trashed as "cheap" in their social group, and the "well if you don't want to pay, then don't pay" rationalization rings totally hollow in a "let them eat cake" way.

 

I don't think women are really socialized to believe men 'should' pay anymore. Most girls I know offer to pay. I've not heard any RL women I know saying they didn't go out with a guy again because he let her pay. I think perhaps men are. I think this is actually more about how men are socialized (and then compared to their peer group) than how women are.

[jdubinva]

@Zengirl - women often make a half-hearted attempt to pay occasionally from my dating experience. It's very obvious when a woman truly wants to split the check.

[zengirl]

@Zengirl - women often make a half-hearted attempt to pay occasionally from my dating experience. It's very obvious when a woman truly wants to split the check.

 

Excellent! If it's very obvious, that gives you more information. And then you can decide if she's compatible with your views and styles based on the information given.

 

Honestly, I think as quite a few people said above (mostly men), most worthwhile people go in --- male or female --- not caring so much who pays for dinner.

[sally4sara]

i did try it, just like most other people did in their younger years.

 

then i grew up and had to decide what i was going to do the rest of my life.

 

it just so happens that most people accept my way, not your way, other women included.

 

Awww. That's alright. I'm sure it stings to know you let strangers be your master so eagerly because deciding things for yourself is hard! Besides there is such a return on that respect of other men. They will pull your card and revoke your membership and all...... and then goes your parking privileges!

 

That confidence you hear the ladies go on about? They are talking about those hot guys who have a mind of their own and don't need to cling to the edges of the pool of society all the dern time waiting for someone to tell them what to do. Its okay. you might figure it out someday when you're over worrying about whether you've made it to grown up status yet or not.

 

Seriously? who worries about being a grown up other than people who don't believe they are one yet? I'm going to take it by your concerns that you're not married and don't have any kids. Have you even had a serious relationship yet like living together or a few years long?

[musemaj11]

Okay. Well (a) you quoted me and (b) you said "You women don't get it" --- I am both the "you" in question and a woman, so it certainly seemed like it.

 

Also, speaking to women "in general" doesn't work. There's your whole problem. We are not an "in general." We are a vast group of individuals with very differing opinions on this and other matters---in this thread, for instance, you have many points and opinions along a spectrum: some women who say men should pay, some women who'd never even LET a guy pay if he wanted to, and plenty of room in between.

 

Just like not all men feel the same way about this issue. Or any other issue.

Are you kidding me?

 

Throughout all of the 'who pays threads', I have only seen probably only roughly 6 women who think that its not a man's job to pay on a date. The vast majority of women still believe that a man has to pay in order for her to remain interested and this also reflects the reality in real life.

[thatone]

yeah, i have family in socal, i know how it is. got a cousin who moved out there to find his first ex-wife, and it didn't take him long to do so.

 

so why exactly are you here then?

 

if you like being alone so much, there's a pretty simple solution. stop speaking and no one will say anything back to you or about you.

[musemaj11]

I dont mind being expected to pay for a woman who believes that a man does not need to lift a finger at home. That is fair.

 

I think its hard to find a woman these days with womanly qualities who can make anything else other than a pancake ...

Edited August 3, 2011 by musemaj11

[Sanman]

I dont mind being expected to pay for a woman who believes that a man does not need to lift a finger at home. That is fair.

 

I think its hard to find a woman these days with womanly qualities who can make anything else other than a pancake ...

 

 

I'm not trying to knock women or anything, but I don't remember the last woman I dated before the current one who could even cook a pancake. At least, they never cooked one for me.

[sally4sara]

I'm not trying to knock women or anything, but I don't remember the last woman I dated before the current one who could even cook a pancake. At least, they never cooked one for me.

 

Did you cook one for them? Probably not because then you would be so womanly.

 

We don't twist women's arm into cooking (anymore). No one is twisting your arm into paying for a date. To cook or to pay the tab on a date is a choice. If you don't want to do so then don't and before anyone starts in with that old rusty whine about how women who expect it won't date them, consider what women faced when a man wouldn't have wanted to marry them if they didn't: want babies, want to cook, have sex at his whim, stay at home day in day out reduced to toilet scrubbing and washing his **** stained drawers, agree she shouldn't have the right to vote or have her medical records private from her spouse, wear what she wanted, and choose her own religion or lack there of. Women (and some men) still saw these changes through, made men get use to these ideas and relationships of all kinds including marriage survived it all. Are you not as brave or determined as a woman can be?

[sally4sara]

Hit it on the head!!

 

I am proud to be traditional in some ways. I am the main cook in the house; I even enjoy putting the plate in front of my husband. I love buying my husband socks and underwear, as well as nursing him when he is sick. I refuse sex about 4 times a year.

 

I expect him to take care of me and I will also take care of him. How can I not make sure my husband is well fed, since he does ALL OF THESE THINGS for me:

 

Drives me anywhere I need to go (cannot drive to medical condition), keeps a roof over my head and food in my stomach, tries to give extras such as jewelery or trips, serves me at the table if he cooks, looks after me if I am sick, puts up with my crazy family, pays for everything because he makes more....

 

If a man treats me like gold, I am happy to be in the kitchen for him, just as my husband is glad to provide for us. I still work full time and use my money for personal things, as well as save it.

 

You are a feminist because you exercise your right to choose to do these things. There is nothing contrary to feminism for you to choose to do these things. What would be contrary to feminism would be if you did these things because you had to whether you got the return form your husband or not. What would be contrary to feminism would be if your husband did the things he does not because he chose to but because he had to whether he got a return from you or not. Feminism is simply the ability to chose your own roles in life instead of a male dictating it to you, other women, other men or anyone for that matter.

[zengirl]

Did you cook one for them? Probably not because then you would be so womanly.

 

We don't twist women's arm into cooking (anymore). No one is twisting your arm into paying for a date. To cook or to pay the tab on a date is a choice. If you don't want to do so then don't and before anyone starts in with that old rusty whine about how women who expect it won't date them, consider what women faced when a man wouldn't have wanted to marry them if they didn't: want babies, want to cook, have sex at his whim, stay at home day in day out reduced to toilet scrubbing and washing his **** stained drawers, agree she shouldn't have the right to vote or have her medical records private from her spouse, wear what she wanted, and choose her own religion or lack there of. Women (and some men) still saw these changes through, made men get use to these ideas and relationships of all kinds including marriage survived it all. Are you not as brave or determined as a woman can be?

 

I actually really don't get the "but then she won't date me!" argument.

 

I'm sure there are guys who won't date me for ALL kinds of reasons, but that doesn't make it any less egalitarian; feminism is about legal and social equality. . . the idea of perfectly carved out roles would be wholly opposite it.

 

Hell, if you don't want to date a woman who can't or won't make you pancakes . . . don't date her either. I'm cool with that. Date whoever you want. There are certainly things I'll call weird or materialistic or shallow, but I don't care if people still do them. I just don't date those people. If you cannot find a girl who will still go out with you regardless of whether or not you bought her dinner . . . well, then I suggest working on something about yourself, whether it be the people you want to go out with or making yourself more attractive to women.

 

Only pay if you want to pay. Just like I only make pancakes or whatever (I actually rarely cook breakfast, though I often cook for the BF; he's more the breakfast maker, but when I'm with others is the only time I eat breakfast food for breakfast. . . I had orange beef stir fry for breakfast this morning) if I want to do so.

 

All the "It's not fair!" whining about dating is stupid, from either side. You can pick whatever arbitrary standards you want for a dating partner, really; the only problem becomes when you cannot find someone who meets those standards and also wants to date you. Then you might want to reconsider or change something. But if not and your arbitrary standards are working, keep going. The end.

[Sanman]

Did you cook one for them? Probably not because then you would be so womanly.

 

We don't twist women's arm into cooking (anymore). No one is twisting your arm into paying for a date. To cook or to pay the tab on a date is a choice. If you don't want to do so then don't and before anyone starts in with that old rusty whine about how women who expect it won't date them, consider what women faced when a man wouldn't have wanted to marry them if they didn't: want babies, want to cook, have sex at his whim, stay at home day in day out reduced to toilet scrubbing and washing his **** stained drawers, agree she shouldn't have the right to vote or have her medical records private from her spouse, wear what she wanted, and choose her own religion or lack there of. Women (and some men) still saw these changes through, made men get use to these ideas and relationships of all kinds including marriage survived it all. Are you not as brave or determined as a woman can be?

 

Pancakes, no. But, I have cooked dinner for my girlfriends before and I have cooked with them as well. I actually come from a big foodie family and I love to cook, so I am actually a better cook than most of the women I date. I've just never had a gf cook me breakfast (though I have had a gf's roommate do so). I love the assumption though.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Sanman

[buster2209]

The guy should pay but she has to offer to pay within 3 dates....

 

It's the gesture of offering to pay that's important, not the actual paying.

 

Also, keep the 3 dates under $50 so it's not like your out of pocket a ton of change plus, you can weed out the gold diggers this way.

 

I was on a second date this week and she offered to pay but I just turned and said to her; "If you make it to the fifth date, I'll let you pay then".

 

She just smiled.

 

I let her know I like her with being mushy and teased her a little.

 

It was worth picking up the $32 tab.....

[musemaj11]

We don't twist women's arm into cooking (anymore). No one is twisting your arm into paying for a date. To cook or to pay the tab on a date is a choice. If you don't want to do so then don't and before anyone starts in with that old rusty whine about how women who expect it won't date them, consider what women faced when a man wouldn't have wanted to marry them if they didn't: want babies, want to cook, have sex at his whim, stay at home day in day out reduced to toilet scrubbing and washing his **** stained drawers, agree she shouldn't have the right to vote or have her medical records private from her spouse, wear what she wanted, and choose her own religion or lack there of. Women (and some men) still saw these changes through, made men get use to these ideas and relationships of all kinds including marriage survived it all. Are you not as brave or determined as a woman can be?

Dont be ridiculous.

 

Unless you live in a conservative country, most men today no longer expect women to fill their traditional role while based on anecdotal evidence, probably 90% of women still expect men to fit traditional male role.

 

Its a lot easier to convince a man that its not fair to expect a woman to do everything at home when she also works than it is to convince a woman that its not fair to expect a man to pay for her outing expenses when she has her own money. I believe this is because men are a lot more logical.

 

My parents for example both originated from a very conservative culture. However, when they moved to the US, they had to adapt to a new lifestyle and it wasnt hard for my mother to convince my father that he needed to start helping around the house more. On the other hand, ironically whenever my mother and I talked about gender relation, its very hard to reason with her that the 60s style of courtship is outdated and unfair for men today. It is as if its impossible for her (most women) to look from the other side's pov because they use their emotion, not logic.

 

In my opinion, these days when men dont help around the house, its because they are just lazy in the first place, not because they think its a woman's job.

 

The guy should pay but she has to offer to pay within 3 dates....

 

It's the gesture of offering to pay that's important, not the actual paying.

Lol, I dont understand guys who like to be made a fool out of.

 

I prefer someone not to offer at all, if its only a pretension.

Edited August 4, 2011 by musemaj11

[LoveandSuch]

Flowers or preferably a gift with more thought put into it, wining,and dining on first date and no, the woman should not be expected to pay on any date, the first or the 30th. If I kindly ask, the man's answer should be no.

[rafallus]

Flowers or preferably a gift with more thought put into it, wining,and dining on first date and no, the woman should not be expected to pay on any date, the first or the 30th. If I kindly ask, the man's answer should be no.

How does it stack up with offering sex after paid dates, or doing home chores like cleaning or cooking?

 

More importantly, would you be so hell bent on making a man paid, if he stimulated you throughout the date and you're thinking less rationally, to put it mildly?

Edited August 4, 2011 by rafallus

[sally4sara]

Dont be ridiculous.

 

Unless you live in a conservative country, most men today no longer expect women to fill their traditional role while based on anecdotal evidence, probably 90% of women still expect men to fit traditional male role.

 

Its a lot easier to convince a man that its not fair to expect a woman to do everything at home when she also works than it is to convince a woman that its not fair to expect a man to pay for her outing expenses when she has her own money. I believe this is because men are a lot more logical.

 

My parents for example both originated from a very conservative culture. However, when they moved to the US, they had to adapt to a new lifestyle and it wasnt hard for my mother to convince my father that he needed to start helping around the house more. On the other hand, ironically whenever my mother and I talked about gender relation, its very hard to reason with her that the 60s style of courtship is outdated and unfair for men today. It is as if its impossible for her (most women) to look from the other side's pov because they use their emotion, not logic.

 

In my opinion, these days when men dont help around the house, its because they are just lazy in the first place, not because they think its a woman's job.

 

Lol, I dont understand guys who like to be made a fool out of.

 

I prefer someone not to offer at all, if its only a pretension.

 

I'm not your mother. If I was you'd be a lot nicer and pleasant to deal with because you'd be a well adjusted person. It doesn't matter what anyone says or how fair minded they are or even if they agree with you on some points such as men shouldn't have to pay for women like women are friggen helpless children. These things don't matter if they come from a woman because you will still be compelled to say something derogatory and snide. You don't give a flip about real equality among genders. You only want to pick them apart and do whatever you can to feel better about yourself. Its not even about thinking men are better. Its about your inferiority complex making you NEED the believe you are better.