Cheating normal?

[wheelwright]

I sat for a while tonight and let my thoughts wander.

 

And I worked out that I have no family or friends who haven't either been cheated on, cheated on a partner, or been involved in an EMR while single. For one out of the 50 or so it was EA only. She is quite a new friend.

 

I admit that in counting this up, I have included Rs before M, if they were years rather than months old.

 

Not a single one.

 

And the force of this anecdotal stat struck me quite hard.

 

Any thoughts?

[Tenacity]

If you want my true thoughts, as a physician... I think that biologically, humans were not meant to be monogamous from a purely physical standpoint.

 

And now that humans live for, on average, 70+ years, it's a lot different than decades ago in order to enforce that.

 

But, as a society we have accepted monogamy and marriage as the way of life, and as such, I am not going to argue that in this post. I could go on and on about it.

[wheelwright]

If you want my true thoughts, as a physician... I think that biologically, humans were not meant to be monogamous from a purely physical standpoint.

 

And now that humans live for, on average, 70+ years, it's a lot different than decades ago in order to enforce that.

 

But, as a society we have accepted monogamy and marriage as the way of life, and as such, I am not going to argue that in this post. I could go on and on about it.

 

I wish you would. If it gets boring someone will let you know..

 

If this is true though, then the ethical standpoints about it become more complex.

 

And issues of love more superfluous.

 

This saddens me,

[wheelwright]

I hope there are some interesting replies, but I'm off to bed now. And if not I guess it wasn't important anyway...

[MissBee]

If you want my true thoughts, as a physician... I think that biologically, humans were not meant to be monogamous from a purely physical standpoint.

 

And now that humans live for, on average, 70+ years, it's a lot different than decades ago in order to enforce that.

 

But, as a society we have accepted monogamy and marriage as the way of life, and as such, I am not going to argue that in this post. I could go on and on about it.

 

I kinda thought this too...but then I don't know if it is a biologically hardwired trait so much as it is an individual choice and variant of human socialization. I'd like you to elaborate.

 

I know some animal species mate for life and some don't...you're not a zoologist/animal behaviorist I presume so I can't ask you to point out any biological differences between the animals that mate for life versus those that don't (but if you know you can share ). What would you say though, is biologically pointing to human beings not being cut out for monogamy?

 

In any case, cheating may be common place and widespread but I still don't think it something that should be accepted as some type of casual norm. I do not believe everyone should be monogamous; however, if you know this about yourself, that you just aren't fit for that, then don't deny it and hitch yourself to someone else OR if you make a commitment and things change, be upfront about it. That is my contention and will always be. Falling out of love and all that is not my problem, that can happen, it's just about being upfront and truthful if it does happen. Polygamy, open marriages, swingers and the lot are all lifestyles out there catering to people who don't want to be confined to monogamy...and I have no problem with it, as everyone comes into it knowing what's what versus tip toeing around on the low.

Edited June 30, 2011 by MissBee

[jwi71]

I sat for a while tonight and let my thoughts wander.

 

And I worked out that I have no family or friends who haven't either been cheated on, cheated on a partner, or been involved in an EMR while single. For one out of the 50 or so it was EA only. She is quite a new friend.

 

I admit that in counting this up, I have included Rs before M, if they were years rather than months old.

 

Not a single one.

 

And the force of this anecdotal stat struck me quite hard.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Polar opposite.

 

None of my friends, some of which I have known 30+ years, have no known infidelity. Same with my family. No known occurrences with the exception of my now xW.

 

I guess birds of a feather do flock together. And I don;t want you to infer that my "circle" is superior to yours - but rather highlight that certain persons who condone or accept behaviors tend to congregate together because they have something in common.

[2themoon&back]

Polar opposite.

 

None of my friends, some of which I have known 30+ years, have no known infidelity. Same with my family. No known occurrences with the exception of my now xW.

 

I guess birds of a feather do flock together. And I don;t want you to infer that my "circle" is superior to yours - but rather highlight that certain persons who condone or accept behaviors tend to congregate together because they have something in common.

 

Well one would have to say that your friends and family now know someone that has been affected by infidelity.... YOU. That does not mean they condone this, it just means they know someone it has happened too, just like WW stated, right?

[twinsmom]

jwi71...Wow..I have followed your story from the very beginning, and it always amazed me how fair and even-handed your responses were, given your circumstances. I appreciated that, because you truly seemed to want to help. But here lately your responses have seemed to change, and now you seem to only want to degrade the "cheater" rather than help. Not sure why your disposition has changed, but I for one miss the person who used to want to help. No matter what you say, all "cheaters" are not degenerates, and it doesn't help anyone who is struggling to imply that. Just saying..

[Silly_Girl]

I sat for a while tonight and let my thoughts wander.

 

And I worked out that I have no family or friends who haven't either been cheated on, cheated on a partner, or been involved in an EMR while single. For one out of the 50 or so it was EA only. She is quite a new friend.

 

I admit that in counting this up, I have included Rs before M, if they were years rather than months old.

 

Not a single one.

 

And the force of this anecdotal stat struck me quite hard.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I posted this a couple of months ago. I knew of two very solid, grounded Rs in my social circle (excluding family). I had thought it was 3 but I learned a year or so ago that something had 'happened' early on in the R...

 

The others either had split up (various reasons) or experienced infidelity. And there are some young Rs now which aren't yet tested.

 

I think it's very sad but I also think it shows that we (any of us) are not alone, are not some freak of nature who stands out pariah-like. And there are others who understand and empathise.

[threebyfate]

They say you are a product of your environment and I believe this to be true. In your environment, everyone cheats. In my environment, when the ex-husband cheated on me, it came as a complete shock since no one around me cheated or had been cheated on. I hadn't been cheated on or had cheated in my past relationships either.

 

It's really up to you if you want to break the pattern you've experienced and been a part of. What other people do, doesn't really define who you are. It's your choice and once you make the choice of breaking the pattern, you take charge of your life and also, your self-esteem.

[MissBee]

They say you are a product of your environment and I believe this to be true. In your environment, everyone cheats. In my environment, when the ex-husband cheated on me, it came as a complete shock since no one around me cheated or had been cheated on. I hadn't been cheated on or had cheated in my past relationships either.

 

It's really up to you if you want to break the pattern you've experienced and been a part of. What other people do, doesn't really define who you are. It's your choice and once you make the choice of breaking the pattern, you take charge of your life and also, your self-esteem.

 

I agree.

 

So much of our adult behavior include us replaying remnants of our past and our home environment without us even realizing.

 

Quite often, many people involved in cheating scenarios have had parents who have cheated or other circumstances in their growing up that made them susceptible to certain patterns of thought and behavior (conscious and subconscious).

 

In the past I had participated in cheating through being an OW in a "relationship affair" and a FWB/Acquaintance With Benefit with another guy with a gf. My father is a habitual cheater and my mom is a habitual forgiver apparently. These are the examples I have seen and as intelligent as I am, I was not immune to playing out certain behaviors and absorbing subconsciously certain attitudes I had seen. The culture I was raised in also made cheating (ONLY on the men's part no less ) some type of norm that you needed to deal with if you wanted a man since "they all do it" .

 

Long story short, my life has been touched by cheating before I was old enough to participate in it...and when I got old enough and was less conscious and self aware...I participated. I think the cheating in my family home going on since I was a child made me worst off than I could have been emotionally and in terms of love and relationship skills...however, I chose to break the cycle. It happened in my past, I have inadvertently learned certain horrible things, I likewise didn't grow up learning certain good things, but as a woman with a responsibility to myself and future spouse and children I decided to really uncover WTF it is all about, how it affected me, and how to make sure that I never repeat that cycle. That is one life choice that should it present itself again...I will pass on.

Edited June 30, 2011 by MissBee

[Gentlegirl]

If you want my true thoughts, as a physician... I think that biologically, humans were not meant to be monogamous from a purely physical standpoint.

 

And now that humans live for, on average, 70+ years, it's a lot different than decades ago in order to enforce that.

 

But, as a society we have accepted monogamy and marriage as the way of life, and as such, I am not going to argue that in this post. I could go on and on about it.

 

I don't want to argue either.

 

Would one be able to honestly say that somebody you have been married to for 40 odd years still turns you on physically, or even sparks an intellectual interest???

 

That is why so many people stray with extramarital intentions. Some are left with unsatisfied desires, while perhaps the spouse doesn't care.

[Silly_Girl]

There will be a proportion of posters who claim their friends and family haven't been affected by infidelity but they won't KNOW. Some folks are extraordinarily private about that stuff, and others perhaps have experiences that date so far back (perhaps the relationship PRIOR to their long-established marriage, for example) that it's no longer relevant to them or something they even really remember.

[bentnotbroken]

Where did he say that? He actually went out of his way to say he *wasn't* implying that.

 

I, too, only know of a very small number who have cheated and yes, I believe that people do tend to congregate with others who share the same values - with NO implication of the worth of those values!

 

 

He didn't say that. He stated a psychological fact. We tend to run in circles where we are most comfortable, If you aren't comfortable with certain things, you tend to avoid them. Not just in cases of infidelity but in all aspects of life. People tend to bring up that we aren't meant to be monogamous for life, if that is true, we are also meant to be a part of certain pack or herd in order to receive support in our lifestyle to ensure survival. I don't prescribe to the animal theory because I am human with choices and consequences to all those choices.

[Owl]

I sat for a while tonight and let my thoughts wander.

 

And I worked out that I have no family or friends who haven't either been cheated on, cheated on a partner, or been involved in an EMR while single. For one out of the 50 or so it was EA only. She is quite a new friend.

 

I admit that in counting this up, I have included Rs before M, if they were years rather than months old.

 

Not a single one.

 

And the force of this anecdotal stat struck me quite hard.

 

Any thoughts?

 

It suggests to me that you've surrounded yourself with the wrong examples from which to model your own relationships.

 

Sure, I know people who have cheated or been cheated on. I know many more who haven't.

 

Remember that you'll adopt the moral and mental attitudes of thsoe you choose to surround yourself with...that's why your parents probably told you to pick your friends wisely.

[denise_xo]

If you want my true thoughts, as a physician... I think that biologically, humans were not meant to be monogamous from a purely physical standpoint.

 

I share this outlook. Also from a historical perspective, infidelity, or non monogamous relations, appear to be an inherent part of the human condition. That's not intended as a value statement from my side, and I think that's different from saying that it's 'normal', but it's how I read the empirical evidence.

[Spark1111]

Certainly cheating can be more prevalent in certain social circles than others.

 

But I would not define it as normal.

 

Actually, recent stats support that divorce has declined since the '80s with more couples choosing to resolve issues and stay together.

 

I remember accompanying a family member, suffering from depression (which does run in families) to the psychiatric intake interview.

 

In addition to asking if there was drug and substance abuse, OCD, ADHD, gambling addictions on either the mother or the father's side of the patient's extended family, the psychiatrist asked if there was a history of multiple wives and multiple husbands.

 

Why?

 

She said it can denote poor coping mechanisms, poor impulse control, emotional instability and an inability to resolve relationship problems.....

 

which can all lead to or denote familial untreated depression.

 

Hmmmmm....interesting.

[denise_xo]

Seems like you have a rare group of "Pure" friends.. Maybe they just haven't told you about these things. Check the infidelity statistics if you think your are a rare case. You are in the norm !

 

Infidelity stats in my country (according to a friend I have who is a psychologist, I didn't see the data myself) says that appr. 70% of all relationships are affected by some kind of infidelity (emotional or physical) during the course of their lifetime. Of course, these kinds of data are somewhat precarious. Divorce rates where I live are at just under 50%, I think.

[John Michael Kane]

Cheating is common, not normal in any way. And that monogamous theory is irrelevant because we as mammals, know how to control our emotions and actions unlike any other species. Using science is just another attempt to excuse calculated, disastrous behavior.

[reboot]

What is "normal"?

[woinlove]

What is normal? Estimates of the number of people who cheat on spouses is comparable to estimates of the number of people who cheat on taxes, with wide error bars on each, ranging from about 25% to 60% or more. Even though it is common, most (but not all) people believe it is wrong to cheat on taxes. Similarly, most, but not all, people think it is wrong to betray and deceive your spouse. By the numbers, one could say cheating on taxes and cheating on spouses are both "normal", but not sure where that gets anyone.

 

As to monogamy: not being monogamous and cheating (i.e. lying, deception, betrayal) don't have to go hand in hand. To be monogamous or not, to be open and honest or not, are choices people can make.

[growingpains]

I think this is the age-old dilemma, being attracted (emotionally, intellectually or physically) to someone other than your SO. I think it is unrealistic to not find other people attractive, interesting etc, it's just whether you act on it or not or whether it will affect your relationship.

 

Some people decide they will act on their desires and then have to deal with the consequences, others wish they could but don't/can't and may forever wonder or regret it, and some just acknowledge their feelings/emotions but know that the risk to their marriage or relationship may be too great to give in to their desires. Of course, I'm simplifying it and there are probably many more scenarios than these but I do think it boils down to whether to take action or not.

 

I'm not sure about the claim that cheating is normal, but I do think that being attracted to others is normal. It is our society that says cheating is not an acceptable thing to do and if your partner doesn't feel that it's acceptable either then obviously it would be wrong to do it, 'normal' or not.

 

GP

[Got it]

There will be a proportion of posters who claim their friends and family haven't been affected by infidelity but they won't KNOW. Some folks are extraordinarily private about that stuff, and others perhaps have experiences that date so far back (perhaps the relationship PRIOR to their long-established marriage, for example) that it's no longer relevant to them or something they even really remember.

 

 

Exactly. How do you actually know? I didn't find out that my mom had had an affair until I was an adult. So while it had happened around me ( I was a toddler) I wasn't aware of it growing up. So not sure if I can say it did impact me. What I can say, with all certainty, that did impact me was their marriage and actions towards each other. The fighting, the anxiety, the stress, and the attacking. Now that did shape me and my siblings.

 

I was cheated on by my first boyfriend and I dropped him like a hot potato and didn't speak to him for a long time.

 

And I may have others around me that have been involved with EMRs, though I didn't know about my one friend, and the first person I knew actively in one, until a couple years ago. But if you don't know then what does that mean?

 

I just don't think it is something many discuss and not sure if I can classify it as normal, prevalent, . . . ? I would actually argue that it was more prevalent in the past than it is now as it was more the norm and acceptable for men especially to go outside their marriage as the marital vows did not necessarily indicate sexual fidelity on the male side.

 

It really wasn't until the turn of the century that romantic love and marriage coincided. For most of history, marriage was based on the betterment of the families and property contracts. The Medival Ages had "courtly" love or romantic love but that was almost never in a marriage setting and was in addition to a marriage. It was usually more of an EA though.

 

I think the modern idea that a marriage or a partner is suppose to supply all facets of happiness or fullfillment is a new take on things.

[Got it]

Certainly cheating can be more prevalent in certain social circles than others.

 

But I would not define it as normal.

 

Actually, recent stats support that divorce has declined since the '80s with more couples choosing to resolve issues and stay together.

 

I remember accompanying a family member, suffering from depression (which does run in families) to the psychiatric intake interview.

 

In addition to asking if there was drug and substance abuse, OCD, ADHD, gambling addictions on either the mother or the father's side of the patient's extended family, the psychiatrist asked if there was a history of multiple wives and multiple husbands.

 

Why?

 

She said it can denote poor coping mechanisms, poor impulse control, emotional instability and an inability to resolve relationship problems.....

 

which can all lead to or denote familial untreated depression.

 

Hmmmmm....interesting.

 

Stats also indicate that divorces decrease when the economy starts to tank as it becomes too financially difficult for people to divorce.

[Got it]

Actually, then, in regards to your last statement, that can be a total dichotomy because if they are involved in infidelity but then publically are against it then it isn't actually how they feel and is quite hypocritical, very much do as I say not as I do.

 

And that then muddles the waters quite a bit and I think is how most people are.