Cheating normal?

[fooled once]

I don't want to argue either.

 

Would one be able to honestly say that somebody you have been married to for 40 odd years still turns you on physically, or even sparks an intellectual interest???

 

That is why so many people stray with extramarital intentions. Some are left with unsatisfied desires, while perhaps the spouse doesn't care.

 

I would like to introduce you to several couples then who have been together 40+ years and are like honeymooners I watch my parents and they are still very much in love; been married 49 years in September. I would also like to introduce you to my inlaws who have been married 60 years and are just too cute for words. Unfortunately, my FIL's weiner doesn't work anymore so they don't have intercourse, but the love and adoration they have for each other is wonderful to watch.

 

And why does it have to be about sex all the time? Can't a couple be in love but not screwing like rabbits? What about the people who are married and due to a health issue, an accident or whatever, the person is paralyzed or incapable of sex? Are you saying their marriage is sham because they aren't boffing each other day and night?

 

Do you not realize that people can still have deep love, passion and attraction and sex not be happening every day or every other day? Is a relationship over when sex stops? God, I hope there aren't people out there who are so shallow. I would love my H just as much if he were physically/emotionally/mentally unable to have sex with me. We connect on so many levels that when one area is lacking, it is made up for in other areas.

 

I am more like jwl; the majority of my friends who are married have not had infidelity be a part of their life. One of my best friends husband was cheating on her and one other friend met her now H when she was separated from her former H (and her current H was divorcing his now former wife). I have a dear friend who did divorce her husband, but not due to infidelity (although she did have an affair for the last year that she lived with her H). But the majority of my friends -- nope, no infidelity for them personally. I just asked my H and he said he knows of no one who has broken up due to infidelity or who have had to work through infidelity in their marriage.

 

I don't know of people who walk around proudly announcing how they are a cheater or a mistress. I know there are somel here (and thankfully some who aren't here) who do that; but I think that is really more baloney and they act that way just on here ... as if being a cheater/mistress is the "cool" thing to do.

[jsb58]

Somebody better explain why OW flip their wigs when MM gets OOW if cheating us so normal.

[OpenBook]

So I would have to ask, is it all about sex? If so, does that mean that MP's are fooling all AP's? Lying to them for nothing but sexual satisfaction? Are AP's lying to themselves that the reasons they're involved in these A's is based on love and connection when really it's about nothing but a biological urge for reproduction?

 

Interesting questions, texas! Here's my take on it: I'm a big believer in "familiarity breeds contempt." And the institution of marriage is certainly a fertile breeding ground for it. A veritable Petri dish. For many long-term M couples I've seen, it actually looks like hate that keeps them going. They're STARVING each other of love and attention and validation. Infidelity is just a manifestation of that starvation. Others may choose other outlets.

 

I agree with the doctor who posted early in this thread that our longer lifespans have a lot to do with the drastic increase in failed M's over the last 40+ years. People just don't want to be miserable for that long.

 

So yes, my vote is all of the above - MPs are looking for sex, and love, and connection, and validation out of their A's. It's a desperate grab for at least a little bit of happiness in their lives.

 

For this reason, I'm not surprised that marital infidelity is so common.

[Cabin]

I think cheating is very common, though I'm hesistant to qualify it as "normal", I suppose.

 

It's a funny thing about LS... most of the time, I find the posts on here blasting cheaters as though infidelity is rare and specific only to some small and morally absent-minded subgroup.

 

The reality is that current research pegs male infidelity at 60%, female at 40%. Combined that averages up to 80% of marriages dealing with infidelity at some point.

 

I should rephrase: not necessary "dealing" with infidelity, but affected by it. I think many affairs go undiscovered.

 

That explains why some posters on this forum can smugly proclaim they know few to no people who have been cheaters/been cheated on.

 

The truth is, nobody knows anything about other people's private lives. And if you think you know what goes on between any two people in their marriage, you are either naive or arrogant.

 

I am the *last* person anyone I know would think is having an A, and yet here I am.

 

I don't defend cheating, but I honestly believe most people come by it honestly. That may sound paradoxical, and of course it is, but most people who find themselves in As weren't looking for someone else. And then they are blindsided by their own guilty desires and actions.

 

At least that has been my experience...

[SidLyon]

Somebody better explain why OW flip their wigs when MM gets OOW if cheating us so normal.

 

This is the very interesting part of it.

 

I think it's undeniable that something that occurs in 20% to 60% of the human population must fall within the range of "normal" human behaviour.

 

Like it or not, it cannot be considered as totally abnormal or outside normal human behaviour patterns.

 

As someone else pointed out hypocrisy is also a normal human behavior.

 

Cheating, dishonesty and hypocrisy are all things that many of us try not to do, as we consider them some of our less endearing human traits.

 

When cheating occurs, in my experience, the BS has an extremely traumatised reaction in something like 99% of cases. So the adverse reaction to cheating, whether it be a BS or an OW on discovering OOW, also has to be consider "normal" human behaviour.

 

It is interesting to speculate what could be the evolutionary reasons for cheating to be normal, and for the cheated on person's extreme reaction to cheating, to also be normal.

[Woggle]

If people don't want to be monogamous then don't commit to a monogamous relationship. Just play around honestly. Is it really that hard?

[OldOnTheInside]

If people don't want to be monogamous then don't commit to a monogamous relationship. Just play around honestly. Is it really that hard?

 

Dishonesty is also quite "normal".

 

Something that amuses me when I hear people tout polygamy or other "alternate lifestyles" like the holy scriptures: Humans will still act like d*ck bags in whatever relationships or lack thereof we get into.

 

It is interesting to speculate what could be the evolutionary reasons for cheating to be normal, and for the cheated on person's extreme reaction to cheating, to also be normal.

Remaining 100% faithful to your partner is undoubtedly hard work for most. There is a large amount of self-control, dedication, and luck required to make a relationship function healthily for decades. How many can pull that off for years and years? And there is still no guarantee of success. From an evolutionary standpoint or no...hard work is hard work.

 

As for the second bit, nobody likes having their trust thrown in their face. Nothing to do with affairs specifically, but rather betrayal in general.

[Woggle]

Also just because somebody grew up with something does not mean they have to repeat. I grew up with all types of dysfunction but I saw there was a better way and at least am trying to grow out of that mindset. Some people seem content to just stay at the bottom.

[chalkfarm]

If people don't want to be monogamous then don't commit to a monogamous relationship. Just play around honestly. Is it really that hard?

 

The NY times article I mentioned earlier discusses this as well - "honestly" telling a spouse that one feels a need is not being met might just lead to fulfillment.... whether with the spouse or with some one else while still preserving the main relationship/marriage.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/03/magazine/infidelity-will-keep-us-together.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1

[silktricks]

The NY times article I mentioned earlier discusses this as well - "honestly" telling a spouse that one feels a need is not being met might just lead to fulfillment.... whether with the spouse or with some one else while still preserving the main relationship/marriage.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/03/magazine/infidelity-will-keep-us-together.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1

 

What a great article. I think this was my favorite line: “Monogamy is not natural, nonmonogamy is not natural. Variation is what’s natural.”

 

I'm monogamous by nature. I don't want to hear from someone who is non-monogamous that there is something wrong with me or that I'm a "bitter" person because I am a jealous sort . But someone who is non-monogamous shouldn't hear from me that there is something wrong with them. We're just different.

[Owl]

What a great article. I think this was my favorite line: “Monogamy is not natural, nonmonogamy is not natural. Variation is what’s natural.”

 

I'm monogamous by nature. I don't want to hear from someone who is non-monogamous that there is something wrong with me or that I'm a "bitter" person because I am a jealous sort . But someone who is non-monogamous shouldn't hear from me that there is something wrong with them. We're just different.

 

Actually, I'm fine with this idea.

 

It doesn't matter to me whether or not someone else is monogamous...as long as their beliefs and choices don't impinge upon my belief in monogamy.

[bentnotbroken]

Actually, I'm fine with this idea.

 

It doesn't matter to me whether or not someone else is monogamous...as long as their beliefs and choices don't impinge upon my belief in monogamy.

 

 

 

And is the rub. It okay for the impingement to effect me because they don't believe.....the sickness of it all.

[Got it]

I think cheating is very common, though I'm hesistant to qualify it as "normal", I suppose.

 

It's a funny thing about LS... most of the time, I find the posts on here blasting cheaters as though infidelity is rare and specific only to some small and morally absent-minded subgroup.

 

The reality is that current research pegs male infidelity at 60%, female at 40%. Combined that averages up to 80% of marriages dealing with infidelity at some point.

 

I should rephrase: not necessary "dealing" with infidelity, but affected by it. I think many affairs go undiscovered.

 

That explains why some posters on this forum can smugly proclaim they know few to no people who have been cheaters/been cheated on.

 

The truth is, nobody knows anything about other people's private lives. And if you think you know what goes on between any two people in their marriage, you are either naive or arrogant.

 

I am the *last* person anyone I know would think is having an A, and yet here I am.

 

I don't defend cheating, but I honestly believe most people come by it honestly. That may sound paradoxical, and of course it is, but most people who find themselves in As weren't looking for someone else. And then they are blindsided by their own guilty desires and actions.

 

At least that has been my experience...

 

Thank you Cabin and I agree. It is really more of the boring truth of most affairs and not the genius master plan the WS has to destroy their BS and wreck havoc on the world.

 

It is much simplier, boring, sad, and unexciting as that.

[Got it]

This is the very interesting part of it.

 

I think it's undeniable that something that occurs in 20% to 60% of the human population must fall within the range of "normal" human behaviour.

 

Like it or not, it cannot be considered as totally abnormal or outside normal human behaviour patterns.

 

As someone else pointed out hypocrisy is also a normal human behavior.

 

Cheating, dishonesty and hypocrisy are all things that many of us try not to do, as we consider them some of our less endearing human traits.

 

When cheating occurs, in my experience, the BS has an extremely traumatised reaction in something like 99% of cases. So the adverse reaction to cheating, whether it be a BS or an OW on discovering OOW, also has to be consider "normal" human behaviour.

 

It is interesting to speculate what could be the evolutionary reasons for cheating to be normal, and for the cheated on person's extreme reaction to cheating, to also be normal.

 

I think you would need to figure out the evoluntionary reason why people lie, steal, are lazy, etc. Human nature is not sunshine and butterflies and, in my opinion, is why religion exists. By nature few people actually follow the Golden Rule 100% and are good in all areas at all times. Sadly, some poeple need to know a "higher power" is there watching all the time because they are not going to manage themselves for the sake of the goodness of others.

 

Human nature is selfish by nature, every war as two opposing sides who feel they are in the right. We have traveled through time, made discoveries, inventions, advancements, etc and at most times on the backs or at the oppositions of others.

 

What many to most humans try and do is be nicer, better, more loving, empathetic, etc but that is an exercise we practice every day and at times we bobble. But all animals put self interest as priority and in a lot of areas we do too, self preservation can be at the expense of others.

 

Yes we can reason and that is an amazing ability but being able to reason doesn't mean we deny ourselves self interest at all times in all ways. Somes times it is at the expense of others, in varying degrees. It isn't an excuse, it doesn't excuse it, nore does it negate the resulting pain but it does happen.

[Cabin]

If people don't want to be monogamous then don't commit to a monogamous relationship. Just play around honestly. Is it really that hard?

 

Yes, it is that hard!

Nobody tells you when you're young and dating and getting engaged that monogamy can be so difficult. Nobody tells you that you might be too young to know what you want. Nobody tells you that other people will cross your path who you are better suited to be with. Nobody tells you that you won't always feel so "in love" with your partner. Nobody tells you that sexual chemistry can die. Nobody tells you that you'd better make damn sure you are highly sexually compatible before getting married.

 

And I know it isn't anyone else's "job" to tell those things... but I think for the most part our society engages in, what I like to call, "The Big Pretend" where we celebrate engagements and weddings, and never speak honestly about how hard marriage is. We rejoice over rings and cake and wedding dresses, but we don't openly share how inconsequential all those things are.

 

So nobody gets married thinking, "I don't want to be monogamous but I'm going to commit to a monogamous relationship anwyay."

 

What happens is that people commit to monogamy believing that how they feel in that moment will last, and that is is sustainable in the long term.

 

Most people don't think they're going to have trouble with monogamy because most of the stories we tell in our society make monogamy seem perfectly natural and easy.

 

And it ain't!

[denise_xo]

Most people don't think they're going to have trouble with monogamy because most of the stories we tell in our society make monogamy seem perfectly natural and easy.

 

This is a good point. I married someone from a quite different culture from my own, and he came with a much stronger baggage in terms of these issues, even though he had less relationship experience than me. He and his family systematically approached a whole range of issues related to long term relationships prior to our marriage, with a strong sense of pragmatism and realism. It was a very interesting learning experience for me and I wish there was more of that kind of thing where I live. I think it relates primarily to the family culture being much stronger where is he from, whereas individualism and generation gaps is more characteristic of my society.

[denise_xo]

Fixed that for ya.

 

No charge.

 

Well, I wasn't referring to values. I don't think the abstract values are that different. I think the difference is a higher degree of up front honesty about human nature and its pitfalls, and a different approach to the practical preparations of marriage.

[OldOnTheInside]

Ah, and so we see the new "religion" of evolution being trotted out again. Seems we now have a replacement for "the devil/god/demons/whatever made me do it". Now the blame can be shifted to our "genes" and we still need take no responsibility for our behavior. "My genetics made me do it".

Add another to the list: It's society's fault.

 

I think the difference is a higher degree of up front honesty about human nature and its pitfalls, and a different approach to the practical preparations of marriage.

Dishonesty, miscommunication, and lack of preparation are very human traits, wherever you are from, or whatever you believe.

 

What is your husband's culture denise? Just curious...

[denise_xo]

Dishonesty, miscommunication, and lack of preparation are very human traits, wherever you are from, or whatever you believe.

 

Yes exactly, that's kind of my point. So, the question is rather what kind of mechanisms society puts in place for dealing with it.

[OldOnTheInside]

Yes exactly, that's kind of my point. So, the question is rather what kind of mechanisms society puts in place for dealing with it.

 

If you look back at human history, you'll find very few "mechanisms" that seem to work in the long-term.

 

So I guess that we are all effed...

[denise_xo]

If you look back at human history, you'll find very few "mechanisms" that seem to work in the long-term.

 

So I guess that we are all effed...

 

Yes, I think so. My personal opinion is that the Buddhists got it right. If there is such a thing as hell, it's right here, right now. However, while nothing is perfect, I think some mechanisms work a bit better than others, at least in the short run. What else can you do than make the best of it

[OldOnTheInside]

Yes, I think so. My personal opinion is that the Buddhists got it right. If there is such a thing as hell, it's right here, right now. However, while nothing is perfect, I think some mechanisms work a bit better than others, at least in the short run. What else can you do than make the best of it

 

"Better to have something that is covered in only a small amount of vomit, than to have something that is drenched in vomit."

Feel free to quote me on that one.

[denise_xo]

"Better to have something that is covered in only a small amount of vomit, than to have something that is drenched in vomit."

Feel free to quote me on that one.

 

I might make that my signature line

[xxoo]

Yes, it is that hard!

Nobody tells you when you're young and dating and getting engaged that monogamy can be so difficult. Nobody tells you that you might be too young to know what you want. Nobody tells you that other people will cross your path who you are better suited to be with. Nobody tells you that you won't always feel so "in love" with your partner. Nobody tells you that sexual chemistry can die. Nobody tells you that you'd better make damn sure you are highly sexually compatible before getting married.

 

No one tells us? Is this really a big secret?

 

The truth is, no one CAN tell a young couple in love (or an old couple, for that matter!) much about the realities of marriage and relationships. Their love is different! They are the first to have ever felt such love! Their love is true.

 

That is the nature of love, and limerance, as discussed on WW's other thread.

[Woggle]

If somebody like George Clooney and a few other regular people I know can play around honestly how is it so hard for others to do. Even if you are married and for some reason lose feelings have the decency to leave first and then play around instead of dragging an innocent person through an emotional hell. This idea that it is a chore to be decent person is crap to me. The sad thing is that an honest player tends to get more crap than somebody who cheats and drags their loved ones though the mud over a cheap thrill. George Clooney is a much more respectable man than Tiger Woods or Anthony Weiner.

 

Also people these days expect life to be a 24/7 thrill ride which was never the case and never will be the case. Some people just need to get a hobby instead of having an affair if they are bored. If you have an affair and leave for the affair partner the same cycle will just repeat itself in a few years because relationships romantic and otherwise or not 24/7 highs. People will these days get disillusioned when they find out that life is not a bumpless road.