Cheating normal?

[wheelwright]

This is the case here. Just another attempt to justify behavior two "adults" knowingly engaged in.

 

Did you put something I didn't say into my quote? That's not really how to do it here, is it?

 

Anyway, you didn't really say something I can answer.

[xxoo]

Let me be clear here. I am not talking about a man being "good looking" and therefore every woman swoons.

 

I literally mean the root of the word "attractive": attract!

 

There are only so many people on this earth who have that special magnetism and chemistry to attract one another in that deep heart/soul/mind/body kind of way...

 

and kind of connection is palpable, undeniable, and unfortunately very inconvenient for marriage.

 

I understood what you meant by attractive. I'm married, not dead!

 

Depends on the M?

 

I think so. I'm certain it isn't a matter of never having felt strong connections, or had opportunities.

[John Michael Kane]

Did you put something I didn't say into my quote? That's not really how to do it here, is it?

 

Doesn't matter.

 

Anyway, you didn't really say something I can answer.

 

Or refuse to. Either way, fine by me.

[fooled once]

Ahh... sounds like something I could have said two years ago. Speaking in absolutes - "always", "never" - is almost never very safe... most people only think they know how they will act/react in hypothetical future situations, and then if/when they find themselves there, they discover how little they really knew.

 

**Honestly Cabin, I can say NEVER. I honestly can. How would I react to my H having an affair, that I don't know so I can't say with certainty that I would leave or I would stay. I can only say I would NEVER cheat on him. If I were to want to be with someone else, I would divorce or separate. I would not sneak around behind his back and cheat.

 

How many people swear upside down and sideways that they'd definitely divorce a spouse for cheating, only to find themselves maintaining the relationship after infidelity?

 

**Like I said, I don't know what I would do. If I found out today that he has been cheating for the last 3 months, I would know it was an issue within him because our marriage has been fantastic for the last 4 years; once all the kids were grown and gone :laugh: Now, if I found out he had cheated 8 years ago, not saying I would like it or not be pissed, but I would know that we were having some issues related to his kids and his ex wife and I was livid about his lack of 'doing the right thing' per say. Can't say much more as it would be TMI.

 

I am always happy to see a marriage survive infidelity IF the cheater is remorseful and accepts responsibility and if the betrayed spouse really wants to fix the issues. If a man has had continual affairs on his wife, I would think she would be crazy to want to stay with him since he has shown time and time again he has no loyalty, faithfulness nor respect for her.

 

How many people don't end up cheating because they simply don't have the opportunity? Or they don't have the opportunity with someone they are equally attracted or drawn to?

 

**Who hasn't had the opportunity? Unless you live in a convent, there probably isn't a woman alive who hasn't had the opportunity. Many men will f*ck anything that breathes.

 

I think there are many monogamy "purists" who can preach about fidelity and morality because meeting someone else just wasn't something they had to worry about.

 

**Why do you say this? Are you saying that those "purists" are too ugly to have anyone find them attractive? Are you saying that they are such losers that no one would want them?

 

(This comment is not to piss people off, so don't overheat yourselves when replying. I'm putting it out there as a discussion point, not an argument.)

 

My replies in bold.

 

Over the course of a lifetime, nearly everyone is bound to cheat. Though they may detest "cheating", it is due to the fact that their nature often demands it under certain circumstances. And indeed, this model of breeding is has been beneficial for countless species over millions of years. There are in fact very few species at all that would be truly monogamous, but psuedo-monogamous.

 

BULL. If you need to believe this, that's fine. But I call bull. And how sad that you feel this way. I know more "non" cheaters than cheaters.

 

I think most people have the opportunity to cheat, but I think more than half say "no thanks". You can call me naive or stupid, but it is my believe and nothing you say can change my mind. I am not a stupid twit who lives under a rock; I am over 40 and work in a Metro area with people from all walks of life. The area I live in is a major metropolitian area and not a tiny small town with 10 people. I travel a minimum of 10 times a year to other areas and have been exposed to all kinds of situations.

 

Just because some cheat doesn't mean that the majority of people will. What nonsense. Many of us have self control, strong believes and will power. Most of have our actions match our words. I have never in my life cheated on a partner and see absolutely no reason why I would decide to do that in the later years of my life. Just ridiculous to me.

[Woggle]

I dumped my ex on the spot after I caught her cheating and if god forbid my current wife should cheat on me I would do the same. I will not be in a relationship without trust.

 

Everybody knows that a married man can more easily get a woman than a single man so I have had plenty of chances to cheat yet I have yet to do so. I even had a chance on a business trip that my wife would have never found out about but I passed. I am not some person with no self control that does whatever little woggle tells him to do.

[MissBee]

I dumped my ex on the spot after I caught her cheating and if god forbid my current wife should cheat on me I would do the same. I will not be in a relationship without trust.

 

Everybody knows that a married man can more easily get a woman than a single man so I have had plenty of chances to cheat yet I have yet to do so. I even had a chance on a business trip that my wife would have never found out about but I passed. I am not some person with no self control that does whatever little woggle tells him to do.

 

 

Man after my own heart

 

I have been complicit in an affair some years ago...but I have never cheated on someone. I am way more self aware now and evolved and if back then when I was much more of a free-for-all, I didn't do it, I'm pretty sure I will never do it.

 

I cannot prevent attraction to someone, but an attraction is a warning that you need to take preventative measure before you end up in a full blown affair...people don't trip and fall into an affair overnight so you have plenty of time to realize what is going on and bolt the gate before the horses run out.

Edited July 3, 2011 by MissBee

[Silly_Girl]

I think saying 'never' is dangerous and talking in absolutes might be foolish. None of us know what's around the corner. I know a lady who was deeply in love with her H, no kids, her husband contracted a degenerative disease and after many years her neighbour became her friend, then her friend became her 'companion'. She still cares for her H in a loving way (last I heard it was rare for him to know who she was), but her life was too empty to be sustainable.

 

In the end it was her H's sister who begged her to seek some company for herself.

 

She never imagined herself to be someone who would cheat. I think she's about 60 now and I worked with her 10+ years ago. I imagine her H and his family are grateful she didn't file for divorce when she found herself attracted to someone else several years after he was first ill.

 

It's an extreme situation, but the world is full of them.

[Cabin]

Is this more of your so-called intellectual psych-babble used to justify your elitist view of your affair. I've raed some of your post, and you sound so full of yourself. Come back down to earth sweetheart.

 

I think it's ironic that someone who resorts to condescension would call me "elitist".

 

Attack the point, not the person...

[MissBee]

I think saying 'never' is dangerous and talking in absolutes might be foolish. None of us know what's around the corner. I know a lady who was deeply in love with her H, no kids, her husband contracted a degenerative disease and after many years her neighbour became her friend, then her friend became her 'companion'. She still cares for her H in a loving way (last I heard it was rare for him to know who she was), but her life was too empty to be sustainable.

 

In the end it was her H's sister who begged her to seek some company for herself.

 

She never imagined herself to be someone who would cheat. I think she's about 60 now and I worked with her 10+ years ago. I imagine her H and his family are grateful she didn't file for divorce when she found herself attracted to someone else several years after he was first ill.

 

It's an extreme situation, but the world is full of them.

 

I believe in living an intentional life and for the past couple of years that is what I've been doing. Meaning, I am way more conscious of my actions beforehand, I set certain standards and goals for my self development and I am a lot more self aware and introspective.

 

I think when one lives an intentional life certain things are way less likely to come up, as I think many things that "just happen" do lack intentionality. I've seen the difference in my life between now and then. I think it is one thing to simply imagine that you'd never do a thing versus actually being intentional about what you will and won't do. I never sat around thinking about being in an OW situation, but I also never sat around and thought about not being in it either. It just wasn't on my radar, no intentonality either way, so it happened. It's like the saying "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail". It makes sense to me. Now things are different and comparing then and now, way less stuff "just happens", it's been an eye opener for me as I realize I have way more agency than I thought, before I was floating along.

 

I think the term "never say never" is more appropriate for situations totally out of your control. Like it would be foolish to say "Oh I'll never get in a car accident"...well you can't know that since so many other factors outside of yourself result in it, but actions that you are in total control of, like cheating, you can more accurately be intentional about that not happening. I can't say I will never be attracted to another man when I'm in a relationship...I can't control that...but I have ample time to control whether or not I end up in an affair.

 

I think I can safely say that I will never cheat, I will never kill my child, I will never rob a bank, etc. all things that are within my control unless I have some unforeseeable mental illness...in that case, I'll say "I most likely will never" do the above.

Edited July 3, 2011 by MissBee

[Silly_Girl]

We cannot know unless we are there, particularly as we change through life's stages. Having a closed mind can be very negative.

[MissBee]

We cannot know unless we are there, particularly as we change through life's stages. Having a closed mind can be very negative.

 

So you don't know whether or not you will kill or molest your child or rob a bank? Barring mental illness, you feel like you simply cannot tell if you would?

 

Well....I appreciate you feeling that you can't safely say you won't do those things.

 

I believe I can safely say I won't and that is my intention and I am willing to bet I won't do them and that is the presence of mind I have about myself. Those things are values centered which is entirely different than never saying never about trivial things...I am all for experiencing things but there are things I have and will continue to choose to avoid.

 

I don't see what close mindedness has to do with it, but then again I know I am not close minded so... *shrug*

 

I had an ex who thought he was so "open minded" when in reality he was just a free for all, with no standards, floating in the breeze, that too was quite negative. If being close minded means deciding what harmful/hurful behaviors I don't plan on engaging in and will most likely not engage in, as I ponder them and decide on it beforehand...then close minded I am.

 

Intentional Living is my life choice and is described as: " Intentional living typically refers to an individual's awareness and choice of lifestyle. However, whereas lifestyle refers to “a way of life or style of living that reflects the attitudes and values of a person or group,” intentional living refers not simply to any way of life, but to those intentionally chosen by an individual based on awareness of her/his values and fundamental beliefs." .

 

I live my life openly and flexibly within that context of having some purpose beforehand...it works quite well for me and I quite enjoy being able to choose versus being at the mercy of "not knowing what is what because I am so 'open minded' ". I quite like knowing where I stand and intentionally choosing versus saying tomorrow I may be a child molester/bank robber/cheater as things "just happen".

Edited July 3, 2011 by MissBee

[White Flower]

Polar opposite.

 

None of my friends, some of which I have known 30+ years, have no known infidelity. Same with my family. No known occurrences with the exception of my now xW.

 

I guess birds of a feather do flock together. And I don;t want you to infer that my "circle" is superior to yours - but rather highlight that certain persons who condone or accept behaviors tend to congregate together because they have something in common.

I suppose I should check the entire thread to see if anyone else called you out on this hogwash but I will say I don't buy it.

 

WW is an intelligent individual who has the capacity and understanding of the broader spectrum and when she looked at the stats of her known circle I'm sure she wouldn't have considered it postworthy if she thought all of her A-partaking group were like-minded.

 

I could have written the EXACT same OP myself with the exeption of ONE co-worker who claims she never partook in an A. She's pretty young though...

 

My personal stats came from people of all walks of life, all religious and class backgrounds. What's interesting is not that we are like-minded, but that people tend to confide easily in people like WW and me. It occurs to me that we are open-minded, WW and I, and have earned the trust of those who have confided in us.

 

There is really no way for you to know that your circle hasn't partook in As. It's much much easier to deny so than it is to admit so. And nobody is going to open up their A past or present to someone who is so vocal about being anti-A.

[White Flower]

It suggests to me that you've surrounded yourself with the wrong examples from which to model your own relationships.

 

Sure, I know people who have cheated or been cheated on. I know many more who haven't.

 

Remember that you'll adopt the moral and mental attitudes of thsoe you choose to surround yourself with...that's why your parents probably told you to pick your friends wisely.

My brother was an alcoholic and I didn't want to end up in trouble like him so I only ever drank socially. My friend in high school had an abortion on her 16th birthday and not wanting a bad reputation I ended our lifelong friendship. These were examples of what not to be, so sure, they influenced me. But that didn't mean I ended up like them.

[White Flower]

What is "normal"?

 

As always reboot, excellent question (or point!)

 

Normal is synonymous to usual, regular, consistent, the trend, etc., and just because it isn't The Norm (socially acceptable) doesn't mean it isn't normal. It quite is.

 

When MM and his BW went to MC the MC said it was quite normal to cheat, even throughout the lifetime of the M. BW got ticked and exclaimed that the MC, (an expert in her field), didn't know what she was talking about! But guess what, she in fact does.

 

Once the BS club accepts that, they can move on in their lives and quit fighting a dead fight in hopes of reforming those that they'll never meet anyway. Infidelity happens, get over it! Or at least understand it before you go off preaching about how it never should have happened because it DID happen (and what about the 'like-minded' here???) and you've got to deal with it and move on.

 

Then the rest of us can have healthy discussions about the how's and why's and where do we go from here's without all the moralistic preaching from those who don't want to associate with 'our type'. If that's true, what are you doing on our forum???

 

Quoted company excluded from the rant of course.

Edited July 3, 2011 by White Flower

[alexandria35]

My brother was an alcoholic and I didn't want to end up in trouble like him so I only ever drank socially. My friend in high school had an abortion on her 16th birthday and not wanting a bad reputation I ended our lifelong friendship. These were examples of what not to be, so sure, they influenced me. But that didn't mean I ended up like them.

 

 

You dumped your lifelong friend because she had an abortion? Hmm...wonder what you would say about your friends dumping you for being an OW because they don't want a bad reputation. Also leaving your friend in a time of need doesn't sound like you are as open minded and trustworthy as you say you are.

 

Jiwi71 said there were no known instances of infidelity among friends and family, not that there definitely wasn't infidelity. Read for context please.

 

Infidelity has occured in my family but I in no way believe that it is normal. My biological father was a married man, my stepfather cheated on my mother early in their marriage. He was also a drug addict, alcoholic and abuser, my mother was a drug addict. After a couple of years they both gave up all addictive substances, got counselling and my stepfather never cheated again. They did however divorce about 10 years later.Somehow they managed to raise me and I have never been a cheater, drug addict or an alcoholic. I have a cousin who recently divorced her husband after catching him in his second affair. His first affair was when he was a youth pastor, then when he got dismissed from that position due to abhorent behaviour, he became a cop and cheated on her again. She is young and beautiful and thankfully she kicked him to the curb. My mother has a cousin who recently died from parkinsons disease after being a loyal wife to her husband for some 40 plus years. He was a long haul truck driver throughout most of their marriage. There were often whisperings of him having other relationships with other woman but I never knew if that was gossip or the gospel truth. He was jerk though and I never liked him. My grandma was loyal to her first husband but after she became a widow at the young age of 37 she became an alcoholic. She got remarried to my grandpa and cheated on him something terrible. I loved my grandma to bits but she drank and cheated right up until her alzheimers was to advanced for her to carry on that way anymore.

 

So that sounds like a lot of infidelity in my family but actually I only named about 5 people. There may be one or two more that I have no knowledge of. Everyone else in my family (who I am close to) are strong faithful people who also don't consider cheating a normal practice. When I was in my early twenties I had girlfriends who cheated on their SO's and I didn't really think anything of it. As I grew older and matured I began to realize that this behaviour was extremely self centered and selfish.

 

Oh and I know this is off topic but I wanted to mention that off all the people I have personally known who have cheated, they were also the ones being abusive and controlling in their marriage. I see many affair partners painting this picture of their married lovers as being these misunderstood abused people but I have never witnessed this in real life. All of the cheaters I have known in my personal life were the ones doing the most to damage their marriages even before the affair, and once engaged in the affair their bad behaviour became even worse.

[MissBee]

Normal is synonymous to usual, regular, consistent, the trend, etc., and just because it isn't The Norm (socially acceptable) doesn't mean it isn't normal. It quite is.

 

 

I agree.

 

Normal and the norm are rather different things...

 

One refers to the commonality of something and the other is a value judgment/what a society or group deems acceptable.

[White Flower]

You dumped your lifelong friend because she had an abortion? Hmm...wonder what you would say about your friends dumping you for being an OW because they don't want a bad reputation. Also leaving your friend in a time of need doesn't sound like you are as open minded and trustworthy as you say you are.

 

I would dump anyone who treated me with malice and contempt. I am also the most forgiving person I know. The friend in question got sober and came to me with apologies. 20 years sober she is, and we are the best of friends now! In fact, a year ago this very day she asked me to support her at a 3rd of July/birthday party for her father in which her waring and judgmental siblings would be in attendance. I dropped other plans to be with her and she called me a true friend. I have the utmost respect for someone who can turn their life around against all odds.

Jiwi71 said there were no known instances of infidelity among friends and family, not that there definitely wasn't infidelity. Read for context please.

 

I did, and that is why I posted the way I did.

 

Infidelity has occured in my family but I in no way believe that it is normal.

It is normal, it just isn't the norm.

 

Oh and I know this is off topic but I wanted to mention that off all the people I have personally known who have cheated, they were also the ones being abusive and controlling in their marriage. I see many affair partners painting this picture of their married lovers as being these misunderstood abused people but I have never witnessed this in real life. All of the cheaters I have known in my personal life were the ones doing the most to damage their marriages even before the affair, and once engaged in the affair their bad behaviour became even worse.

 

OTC it was my exH who did all of the damage preA, midA, and postA. He gambled our retirement away, he was narcissistic, contemptuous, and sneaky. His EA was ok, mine was abominable (but that's narcissism speaking), and he did everything he could to ruin me.

 

I wish he'd just D'd before getting nasty but that was the process he needed to go through in order to find happiness I guess. And I went through mine, regret free of course.

[White Flower]

I agree.

 

Normal and the norm are rather different things...

 

One refers to the commonality of something and the other is a value judgment/what a society or group deems acceptable.

Great definition!

[fooled once]

We cannot know unless we are there, particularly as we change through life's stages. Having a closed mind can be very negative.

 

Yes, I can say never. I don't understand why that is so hard for you to comprehend. YOU may not be able to say it; but I can.

 

I will never be an alcoholic

I will never be a cheater

I will never rob a bank

I will never fly to the moon

I will never have another child

 

It really isn't that hard for me. Just like MissBee said, to say "never" to things outside of your control, is silly. Cheating IS controllable. Drinking is controllable. Robbing a bank is controllable.

 

I understand it is hard for you to accept that some of us are very strong in our morals and ethics. But I think we know ourselves more than you do

 

Saying never to a situation doesn't equal a closed mind How utterly silly to equate one with the other. I think some like to ensure they have a 'loop hole' for when they behave in a certain way; that way they can blame someone besides themselves for their actions.

[donnamaybe]

Cheating, AKA lying and sneaking around, is normal for those lacking integrity and honesry. Pretty simple.

[bentnotbroken]

Yes, I can say never. I don't understand why that is so hard for you to comprehend. YOU may not be able to say it; but I can.

 

I will never be an alcoholic

I will never be a cheater

I will never rob a bank

I will never fly to the moon

I will never have another child

 

It really isn't that hard for me. Just like MissBee said, to say "never" to things outside of your control, is silly. Cheating IS controllable. Drinking is controllable. Robbing a bank is controllable.

 

I understand it is hard for you to accept that some of us are very strong in our morals and ethics. But I think we know ourselves more than you do

 

Saying never to a situation doesn't equal a closed mind How utterly silly to equate one with the other. I think some like to ensure they have a 'loop hole' for when they behave in a certain way; that way they can blame someone besides themselves for their actions.

 

 

I love your I "never" will list. I feel the same way about a lot of things. There are some things that I not only feel very strong in, but I continue to pray for strength in. I can also say honestly that I cannot say I will never do....

 

a) kill if pushed

b) dismiss a person from my life for a "minor" infraction.

c)watch twilight at some point

d) seek revenge because the old me isn't that far away

e) steal to feed my family

f)be an alcoholic

[MissBee]

Yes, I can say never. I don't understand why that is so hard for you to comprehend. YOU may not be able to say it; but I can.

 

I will never be an alcoholic

I will never be a cheater

I will never rob a bank

I will never fly to the moon

I will never have another child

 

It really isn't that hard for me. Just like MissBee said, to say "never" to things outside of your control, is silly. Cheating IS controllable. Drinking is controllable. Robbing a bank is controllable.

I understand it is hard for you to accept that some of us are very strong in our morals and ethics. But I think we know ourselves more than you do

 

Saying never to a situation doesn't equal a closed mind How utterly silly to equate one with the other. I think some like to ensure they have a 'loop hole' for when they behave in a certain way; that way they can blame someone besides themselves for their actions.

 

 

Agreed....

 

I don't understand how it is close-minded to decide upon what you want and don't want for yourself and the things you find acceptable to do or not do. Isn't that what it means to be a responsible, "together" adult?

 

That is like me saying "I will never date a drug dealer", and am then told I am closeminded because of it. Well pardon me for setting a standard beforehand instead of being the type that is subject to every whim and fancy and blows with every wind. I do not think open mindedness implies not having a presence of mind about yourself, so that anything goes and since anything goes at any time...then you can never be "wrong" since you had no standard from which to judge or base your behaviors on to begin with.

 

Like you, I completely respect SG not being able to say never to the examples stated. I am sure plenty people are like that but likewise others can say never about such matters that are controllable and outside of what they deem good for themselves. If I am close minded for that reason, sign me up and give me the banner to wave.

Edited July 4, 2011 by MissBee

[bentnotbroken]

Agreed....

 

I don't understand how it is close-minded to decide upon what you want and don't want for yourself and the things you find acceptable to do or not do. Isn't that what it means to be a responsible, "together" adult?

 

That is like me saying "I will never date a drug dealer", and am then told I am closeminded because of it. Well pardon me for setting a standard beforehand instead of being the type that is subject to every whim and fancy and blows with every wind. I do not think open mindedness implies not having a presence of mind about yourself, so that anything goes and since anything goes at any time...then you can never be "wrong" since you had no standard from which to judge or base your behaviors on to begin with.

 

Like you, I completely respect SG not being able to say never to the examples stated. I am sure plenty people are like that but likewise others can say never about such matters that are controllable and outside of what they deem good for themselves. If I am close minded for that reason, sign me up and give me the banner to wave.

 

 

Agreed. I decided that I wanted to have children after I was married, not before. When having sex before I was married, I used birth control to make sure my boundaries for having children was adhered to.

 

When I decided I wanted to attend college, I made sure my grades were acceptable to attend the school that I chose. I didn't fall below the boundaries that I set for myself.

 

I decided before marriage that I didn't want to be with anyone else and I wold stick with the promise I made to forsake all others. I did that. I want a banner too.:bunny:

[Silly_Girl]

It's not about dating drug dealers And it's not about having a loophole. It's about not being blindsided when life takes a turn and a series of events leads you to somewhere you never considered or planned for. I get what you guys are saying, I just don't believe you can know how other situations might leave you, and therefore I believe YOU believe you'd know what you would do, I just don't think it's possible.

 

The one that always gets me is euthanasia. So easy to have a judgement but if it were your own child.... well, I personally just find it the easy way out to say 'I KNOW how I'd behave'. I think it's the safe way. It doesn't threaten your principles or require self-interrogation.

 

Hopefully it's all irrelevant anyway...

[MissBee]

It's not about dating drug dealers And it's not about having a loophole. It's about not being blindsided when life takes a turn and a series of events leads you to somewhere you never considered or planned for. I get what you guys are saying, I just don't believe you can know how other situations might leave you, and therefore I believe YOU believe you'd know what you would do, I just don't think it's possible.

 

The one that always gets me is euthanasia. So easy to have a judgement but if it were your own child.... well, I personally just find it the easy way out to say 'I KNOW how I'd behave'. I think it's the safe way. It doesn't threaten your principles or require self-interrogation.

 

Hopefully it's all irrelevant anyway...

 

 

Answer this SG: can you say that you would never kill your child (not speaking about euthanasia) or do you believe that you can be blindsided through one of life's turns and end up doing so?