Finally realize these MM/MW are total cowards

[26pointblue]

I guess for some people those are good enough reasons. Not for me. I want love, passion and intimacy too. If I wanted to be comfortable, familiar and safe I would move in with my mother...lol.

 

To me the ideal marriage combines both aspects. It has the love, passion & intimacy as well as the comfort, familiarity & safety. I have never been married & don't plan to get married unless I have this seemingly ever so rare combination. I do believe that action & commitment are more important in a marriage than feelings & 'excitement.' These are things I've learned the hard way though [as an OW whose xMM stayed married]. I would rather have a steady guy who loved me with his actions than a man who went with the whims of his feelings, because feelings change. I do plan to find the passion & the security though, or remain single.

[Spark1111]

Well my MM never had a D day, so he went back to his life as it was. As for my friend whose MM did get caught, his exact words to her were "I just have to go through this MC to get my W off my back, then I can start seeing you again." Doesn't sound like he was all that uncomfortable to me. I know there are a bunch of BS here and I know you think your husbands come back and stay with you because they love you and all that. Well, I hope that works out for you. I would NEVER take back a man who was unfaithful to me, because once you have tasted the apple you never really go back. Just saying.

 

Geminigirl....I find this thinking somewhat angry and more than a bit convoluted.

 

Didn't he cheat on his wife WITH YOU? Didn't he once love her enough to marry her?

 

Were your expectations that once married to you, he would never cheat on you?

 

Do you not think his wife had/has those very same expectations?

 

Why would you believe he would BE DIFFERENT if married to you?

 

When the going got tough, or the newness wore off, what reasonable expectation led you to believe he would not then cheat on you?

 

If you would never take back a man who cheated on you while married to him, how did you find it okay for him to cheat on the woman he WAS married to?

[Geminigrl]

Geminigirl....I find this thinking somewhat angry and more than a bit convoluted.

 

Didn't he cheat on his wife WITH YOU? Didn't he once love her enough to marry her?

 

Were your expectations that once married to you, he would never cheat on you?

 

Do you not think his wife had/has those very same expectations?

 

Why would you believe he would BE DIFFERENT if married to you?

 

When the going got tough, or the newness wore off, what reasonable expectation led you to believe he would not then cheat on you?

 

If you would never take back a man who cheated on you while married to him, how did you find it okay for him to cheat on the woman he WAS married to?

 

I NEVER said cheating was ok. Tell me where I said it was ok. I don't think cheating is ok. I think it's what people who are unhappily married and too chicken to leave do. Yes, I cheated too...Yes I WAS a coward too! I admit it! I am not a coward anymore though, because I am leaving my unhappy marriage. And, I would expect him to not cheat on me because I will NEVER cheat on a partner again. I have learned (novel concept) and I guess I would think he would learn as well, it is FAR better and less painful to man up and leave than to cheat. You don't cheat on someone you are in love with. You may love them in some way, but you are not IN LOVE with them if you are having a full on relationship with someone else. There is no way. And, I am not angry at the BS. I feel sorry for them. I would never stay with a man who cheated on my because I love myself enough to put myself first. The same reason I went NC with my MM. He's not good enough for me! I deserve better.

[20Seconds]

Don't want to retell my entire tale here, but suffice it to say my A with a MM is over. I am M too but getting divorced. My AP and I never got caught. I have a friend in a similar situation. Her MM just got caught by his W and now he is trying to get her to stay in the affair with him, while he goes to MC with his W. Back to my situation for a sec, offered him an amazing life with me and he won't leave. I went NC with him a month ago and recently he called me to see if I am ok. Yeah. No thank you. We are not friends. If you want to talk to me leave your W, otherwise get lost.

 

Anyway, went back to NC and told him don't come back around unless you are getting a divorce. After thinking about my situation and my friend's situation, I came to the conclusion that both of these men and 99.9% of the men and women I read about here, who claim to be in love with their AP, but go back to their marriages, are total COWARDS! Ok, I am not condoning my choice to get involved in an affair. It was stupid. Fine. Call it what you will. But, I am leaving my marriage even though my A is over. I know what I want from a man, keyword here being a MAN! I don't want some ball-less wonder who is too afraid of his W to leave and follow his heart. Seriously, it is so NOT SEXY! So what I would say to all of you OW/OM here is, people you deserve better! Go out and find yourself someone worthy of you!! Leave these wimps to their spouses and let them sit around indefinitely in their lousy marriages while you go out and live an amazing life! To me that is the absolute best revenge of all.

 

I cheered at your post, GG

 

I was in a similar situation, married when the A started, had a d-day very quickly as when my ex-H asked if I was having an A, I did not lie. We agreed to separate and are now divorced.

 

I could have chosen the cake eater option, but I didn't. I lost a lot - but it was a consequence of believing that if I could not go back and re-commit to my marriage (I could not) then NOt continuing to lie, NOT gaslighting, NOt flip-flapping, was the least I could do.

 

Two years later (A ended about 6 months ago but he would still continue it if I agreed), he's still married and still knocking on my effing door.

 

He still wants to be "friends" - has HE no self-respect? Surely he can imagine I think less and less of him as time goes by?!

 

But perhaps his incapacity or unwillingness to own his behaviour or deal with HIS issues makes him oblivious to the fact that other people can and do .

[26pointblue]

I NEVER said cheating was ok. Tell me where I said it was ok. I don't think cheating is ok. I think it's what people who are unhappily married and too chicken to leave do. Yes, I cheated too...Yes I WAS a coward too! I admit it! I am not a coward anymore though, because I am leaving my unhappy marriage. And, I would expect him to not cheat on me because I will NEVER cheat on a partner again. I have learned (novel concept) and I guess I would think he would learn as well, it is FAR better and less painful to man up and leave than to cheat. You don't cheat on someone you are in love with. You may love them in some way, but you are not IN LOVE with them if you are having a full on relationship with someone else. There is no way. And, I am not angry at the BS. I feel sorry for them. I would never stay with a man who cheated on my because I love myself enough to put myself first. The same reason I went NC with my MM. He's not good enough for me! I deserve better.

 

Okay but you are saying that because YOU cheated because you were unhappily married & not in love with your husband, that everyone who cheats is the same way. This just isn't true. I've realized my xMM was very much in love with his wife & also happily married. His issues were within him. He would never be 'happily' anything because he was unhappy with himself, & kept looking for outside fulfillment. This can be true of people who stay married after cheating & people who leave & be with their AP after cheating & people who leave & are single after cheating. I think that if someone cheats then yes they are cowardly & something is broken inside them but that doesn't mean AT ALL that they are unhappily married or not in love with their spouse.

 

I'm glad you learned & worked on yourself. I'm the same way . . . yes hard experiences teach us things & that's good. But you sound very judgmental when you say your xMM is a coward for staying married while you are no longer a coward for leaving. You don't know whether your xMM is trying to fix himself & learn from his mistakes like you are doing. You don't know if he's working on his marriage. It's rather presumptious to act like you can learn & change but he can't, just because he stayed married & you left. Maybe he was happily married & happily having an affair. That happens all the time.

 

And you are sounding really condescending towards people who chose to stay with someone who cheated on them. There is a thing in love/relationships called forgiveness & just because you think you wouldn't choose to forgive doesn't mean that you should feel sorry for people who do. It takes strength & courage to forgive. I just think you still have some more learning to do because your focus is very 'me me me' & there are different kinds of courage, learning & growing that you are criticizing because you chose a different way & feel you would choose a different way in the future. We can agree that cheating is cowardly but you can't say your xMM is being a coward right now because you don't know what he's doing. Maybe he's changing/learning/growing like you. And you certainly can't criticize betrayed spouses when the one in your situation doesn't even know she's a betrayed spouse & the one in your friend's situation may be learning, changing & growing from her experiences just as you are.

[Gentlegirl]

Hi Geminigirl,

 

MM kept me dangling for 3 years. His wife got an inlking and said 'HEEL', so he slunk back like the gutless cur he turned out to be. He's back chained up in the kennel now.

 

He wanted a different life after 45 years of marriage with her and the small village he lived in.

 

He liked having me on the side to show him things like new food, wines, theatre new hobbies. I was a great little educator and diversion for him.

 

He just didn't have the guts to take hold of a new life and live it. So glad I found out because his wife did me the freatest favour by calling him back .

 

Gentlegirl

[donnamaybe]

Well my MM never had a D day, so he went back to his life as it was. As for my friend whose MM did get caught, his exact words to her were "I just have to go through this MC to get my W off my back, then I can start seeing you again." Doesn't sound like he was all that uncomfortable to me. I know there are a bunch of BS here and I know you think your husbands come back and stay with you because they love you and all that. Well, I hope that works out for you. I would NEVER take back a man who was unfaithful to me, because once you have tasted the apple you never really go back. Just saying.

 

Some people are just cake eaters. They need the ego inflation of two people. But if the WS wanted to leave the M, they would leave.

[Geminigrl]

Okay but you are saying that because YOU cheated because you were unhappily married & not in love with your husband, that everyone who cheats is the same way. This just isn't true. I've realized my xMM was very much in love with his wife & also happily married. His issues were within him. He would never be 'happily' anything because he was unhappy with himself, & kept looking for outside fulfillment. This can be true of people who stay married after cheating & people who leave & be with their AP after cheating & people who leave & are single after cheating. I think that if someone cheats then yes they are cowardly & something is broken inside them but that doesn't mean AT ALL that they are unhappily married or not in love with their spouse.

 

I'm glad you learned & worked on yourself. I'm the same way . . . yes hard experiences teach us things & that's good. But you sound very judgmental when you say your xMM is a coward for staying married while you are no longer a coward for leaving. You don't know whether your xMM is trying to fix himself & learn from his mistakes like you are doing. You don't know if he's working on his marriage. It's rather presumptious to act like you can learn & change but he can't, just because he stayed married & you left. Maybe he was happily married & happily having an affair. That happens all the time.

 

And you are sounding really condescending towards people who chose to stay with someone who cheated on them. There is a thing in love/relationships called forgiveness & just because you think you wouldn't choose to forgive doesn't mean that you should feel sorry for people who do. It takes strength & courage to forgive. I just think you still have some more learning to do because your focus is very 'me me me' & there are different kinds of courage, learning & growing that you are criticizing because you chose a different way & feel you would choose a different way in the future. We can agree that cheating is cowardly but you can't say your xMM is being a coward right now because you don't know what he's doing. Maybe he's changing/learning/growing like you. And you certainly can't criticize betrayed spouses when the one in your situation doesn't even know she's a betrayed spouse & the one in your friend's situation may be learning, changing & growing from her experiences just as you are.

 

Ok, maybe another way of putting this is, if you are incapable of being fulfilled and happy within yourself, then how in the world can you possibly be in love and happily married to your spouse? That just doesn't make any sense at all.

If that is the case, you are essentially at that point in your life incapable of being in love and happily married.

 

I also never said my xMM couldn't change and grow and do things differently. He certainly can and I hope he does and then I wouldn't consider him a coward anymore. I love him and I would love nothing more than to hear he had fixed his life and his marriage. I have told him a million times I hope you find happiness for yourself, even if it means you don't end up with me. The reason, I consider him a coward right now is because I know he isn't working on his marriage because he essentially told me as much when he picked up the phone to call me to get a 'fix' and try to get me to be his friend. I offered him my love and a life together and he turned me down. I went NC for a month and formed a scab on my heart and by calling me he ripped that scab wide open. That was completely selfish and cowardly on his part and totally unfair to both me and his W.

 

I also never criticized BS. I said I feel sorry for them. That is compassion, not criticism. I do feel sorry for them. It sucks to be betrayed and personally I would not choose to stay with someone who betrayed me. Ok, perhaps I should put it a different way; I feel sorry for the BS who stay with men who pretend to put their effort into MC and their marriage, while meanwhile going back to their AP. This seems to be extremely common by the way. So, let's see now I have forgiven the person and they go and cheat on me again. Yeah, no thank you.

 

So, call me judgmental if you want to. I can live with that. And, honestly if I don't take care of me, me, me as you put it then exactly who is going to? Certainly not my exMM.

[Geminigrl]

26, I have to say you must be the most forgiving person on this board. I don't say that sarcastically either. I am all about forgiving people and thanking them for the wisdom the brought into my life and all that, but I am having a really hard time finding forgiveness for my exMM right now. I can forgive him for not choosing me, I really can. What I'm having a harder time with is his coming back around after I walked away from him for almost a month and forcing me be the bad guy who had to tell him he can't be my friend and to get lost. I asked him what he wanted from me and his response was, "How about a thank you for calling you?" Are you effing kidding me? Really? I should thank you for calling me after a month and offering me basically nothing after I offered you a life together and my love and you turned me down? Yeah, I guess I just haven't evolved enough yet to get over a betrayal of that magnitude.

[Spark1111]

Okay but you are saying that because YOU cheated because you were unhappily married & not in love with your husband, that everyone who cheats is the same way. This just isn't true. I've realized my xMM was very much in love with his wife & also happily married. His issues were within him. He would never be 'happily' anything because he was unhappy with himself, & kept looking for outside fulfillment. This can be true of people who stay married after cheating & people who leave & be with their AP after cheating & people who leave & are single after cheating. I think that if someone cheats then yes they are cowardly & something is broken inside them but that doesn't mean AT ALL that they are unhappily married or not in love with their spouse.

 

I'm glad you learned & worked on yourself. I'm the same way . . . yes hard experiences teach us things & that's good. But you sound very judgmental when you say your xMM is a coward for staying married while you are no longer a coward for leaving. You don't know whether your xMM is trying to fix himself & learn from his mistakes like you are doing. You don't know if he's working on his marriage. It's rather presumptious to act like you can learn & change but he can't, just because he stayed married & you left. Maybe he was happily married & happily having an affair. That happens all the time.

 

And you are sounding really condescending towards people who chose to stay with someone who cheated on them. There is a thing in love/relationships called forgiveness & just because you think you wouldn't choose to forgive doesn't mean that you should feel sorry for people who do. It takes strength & courage to forgive. I just think you still have some more learning to do because your focus is very 'me me me' & there are different kinds of courage, learning & growing that you are criticizing because you chose a different way & feel you would choose a different way in the future. We can agree that cheating is cowardly but you can't say your xMM is being a coward right now because you don't know what he's doing. Maybe he's changing/learning/growing like you. And you certainly can't criticize betrayed spouses when the one in your situation doesn't even know she's a betrayed spouse & the one in your friend's situation may be learning, changing & growing from her experiences just as you are.

 

Thanks for this 26!

 

And like your xMM's wife, I did make his life a horrible living hell for a very long time.

 

I didn't want him unless he had the courage to change and grow. Hell, I kept trying not to reconcile and remained very, very guarded and uncommitted to a future with him for a very long time.

 

He had to prove to me he had changed into a man I could trust and respect again, bear my pain, and my anger, show me love...

 

That took a lot of courage.

[Tenacity]

Your post was really interesting Geminigirl.

 

I don't totally agree with everything... I think it is less about lacking courage than it is about being self-centered. That is what an affair is about... focusing on SELF and not caring who else gets hurt.

 

Probably the hardest thing for me to accept (and I do fully) is that my MM ALWAYS loved his wife. I do believe he loved me (or thought he did... we could get into a debate about love vs limerance and infatuation, etc) but I know he THOUGHT he loved me.

 

He never lied to me about loving her. I know he does, and always has. There were serious issues in the marriage but for someone married 27 years, with that kind of history, and a loving marriage overall, then certainly he made the right choice to stay in his marriage. My anger is really about being taken along for the ride while he discovered that... and anger at MYSELF for going along with it.

[Tenacity]

Thanks for this 26!

 

And like your xMM's wife, I did make his life a horrible living hell for a very long time.

 

I didn't want him unless he had the courage to change and grow. Hell, I kept trying not to reconcile and remained very, very guarded and uncommitted to a future with him for a very long time.

 

He had to prove to me he had changed into a man I could trust and respect again, bear my pain, and my anger, show me love...

 

That took a lot of courage.

 

You had every right to feel that way and insist on that Spark. He needed to prove that to you if you were to go on and heal. You didn't make his life 'horrible living hell'... you did what needed to be done.

[Geminigrl]

Your post was really interesting Geminigirl.

 

I don't totally agree with everything... I think it is less about lacking courage than it is about being self-centered. That is what an affair is about... focusing on SELF and not caring who else gets hurt.

 

Probably the hardest thing for me to accept (and I do fully) is that my MM ALWAYS loved his wife. I do believe he loved me (or thought he did... we could get into a debate about love vs limerance and infatuation, etc) but I know he THOUGHT he loved me.

 

He never lied to me about loving her. I know he does, and always has. There were serious issues in the marriage but for someone married 27 years, with that kind of history, and a loving marriage overall, then certainly he made the right choice to stay in his marriage. My anger is really about being taken along for the ride while he discovered that... and anger at MYSELF for going along with it.

 

Ok, call it self centeredness then or whatever you want. The fact remains it's not really ok to go back to your marriage after an A and fix nothing and just go on like it never happened. If you are cheating on your partner, especially when you create an entire relationship with your AP (meeting their friends, going out in public together, spending large amounts of time together) there is either something very wrong in your marriage or something very wrong with you. Can we all agree upon that?

[fooled once]

Don't want to retell my entire tale here, but suffice it to say my A with a MM is over. I am M too but getting divorced. My AP and I never got caught. I have a friend in a similar situation. Her MM just got caught by his W and now he is trying to get her to stay in the affair with him, while he goes to MC with his W. Back to my situation for a sec, offered him an amazing life with me and he won't leave. I went NC with him a month ago and recently he called me to see if I am ok. Yeah. No thank you. We are not friends. If you want to talk to me leave your W, otherwise get lost.

 

Anyway, went back to NC and told him don't come back around unless you are getting a divorce. After thinking about my situation and my friend's situation, I came to the conclusion that both of these men and 99.9% of the men and women I read about here, who claim to be in love with their AP, but go back to their marriages, are total COWARDS! Ok, I am not condoning my choice to get involved in an affair. It was stupid. Fine. Call it what you will. But, I am leaving my marriage even though my A is over. I know what I want from a man, keyword here being a MAN! I don't want some ball-less wonder who is too afraid of his W to leave and follow his heart. Seriously, it is so NOT SEXY! So what I would say to all of you OW/OM here is, people you deserve better! Go out and find yourself someone worthy of you!! Leave these wimps to their spouses and let them sit around indefinitely in their lousy marriages while you go out and live an amazing life! To me that is the absolute best revenge of all.

 

But isn't the only reason you feel this way is because you are tired of waiting? did you feel this way 3 months ago? Did you feel this way 6 months ago? Is he only a coward NOW because you are done and tired of waiting?

 

How about MM/MW who keep their AP dangling for, say, 5 or 6 years because there has never been a D Day? Are they cowards too, or just cake eaters?

 

The MM are cake eaters and the OW are delusional Seriously, people who wait that long to ME are needy and insecure. They are willing to put their lives on hold and will wait and wait and wait....until the MM says he is done. I actually have a lot of pity for the women/men who wait in the wings for years; claiming of course they don't want to marry him; yet we all know if the cheater were to divorce, the AP would jump at the chance to marry.

 

Well my MM never had a D day, so he went back to his life as it was. As for my friend whose MM did get caught, his exact words to her were "I just have to go through this MC to get my W off my back, then I can start seeing you again." Doesn't sound like he was all that uncomfortable to me. I know there are a bunch of BS here and I know you think your husbands come back and stay with you because they love you and all that. Well, I hope that works out for you. I would NEVER take back a man who was unfaithful to me, because once you have tasted the apple you never really go back. Just saying.

 

I find this post very off the wall and cruel. YOU have no idea what you would do if a man you truly loved, how you had children with, who you planned a future with cheated on you. YOU can't stay what you would do; because you are not in this situation.

 

And you did stay with a cheater - unless of course you believe that the MM wasn't having sex with his wife. I know many OW do believe this. And why are you dumping on BS's? You haven't been one. You have been an unfaithful wife. Not the same as a betrayed spouse. I would bet you would have said 4 years ago that you NEVER would get involved with a MM, right? yet, you did and did so willingly. So before throwing stones at women who DID take back a spouse who betrayed them, maybe think it through a bit more. Again, when you have history, love and a future planned with someone, you don't throw it all away just because he found an easy mark to cheat with.

 

Geminigirl....I find this thinking somewhat angry and more than a bit convoluted.

 

Didn't he cheat on his wife WITH YOU? Didn't he once love her enough to marry her?

 

Were your expectations that once married to you, he would never cheat on you?

 

Do you not think his wife had/has those very same expectations?

 

Why would you believe he would BE DIFFERENT if married to you?

 

When the going got tough, or the newness wore off, what reasonable expectation led you to believe he would not then cheat on you?

 

If you would never take back a man who cheated on you while married to him, how did you find it okay for him to cheat on the woman he WAS married to?

 

Great post Spark!

 

Hi Geminigirl,

 

MM kept me dangling for 3 years. His wife got an inlking and said 'HEEL', so he slunk back like the gutless cur he turned out to be. He's back chained up in the kennel now.

 

He wanted a different life after 45 years of marriage with her and the small village he lived in.

 

He liked having me on the side to show him things like new food, wines, theatre new hobbies. I was a great little educator and diversion for him.

 

He just didn't have the guts to take hold of a new life and live it. So glad I found out because his wife did me the freatest favour by calling him back .

 

Gentlegirl

 

So you are claiming the wife controls the husband? Is that just because he chose her instead of you? You sound like you have sour grapes that you were picked. I am sorry he hurt you so bad; but you willingly had an affair with him. Yes, he lied to you - all MM lie. Man, if this guy was so easily controlled by the wife, however did he find the time to have an affair with you for 3 years? Did you not notice how cowardly he was when you were with him? Stop blaming his wife. Blame HIM. He chose the marriage. He chose to stay. Be mad at him, not his wife. She doesn't have magical powers to keep him married, since she obviously didn't have magical powers so he would stay faithful

[Silly_Girl]

Ok, call it self centeredness then or whatever you want. The fact remains it's not really ok to go back to your marriage after an A and fix nothing and just go on like it never happened. If you are cheating on your partner, especially when you create an entire relationship with your AP (meeting their friends, going out in public together, spending large amounts of time together) there is either something very wrong in your marriage or something very wrong with you. Can we all agree upon that?

 

My guy did this. Not for long, to be fair, but he did it. I think it's entirely distespectful and delusional. A waste of the BS's time. But then again, in my case she was happy with the 'no questions asked' approach so at that stage my compassion wanes...

[Spark1111]

Hi Geminigirl,

 

MM kept me dangling for 3 years. His wife got an inlking and said 'HEEL', so he slunk back like the gutless cur he turned out to be. He's back chained up in the kennel now.

 

He wanted a different life after 45 years of marriage with her and the small village he lived in.

 

He liked having me on the side to show him things like new food, wines, theatre new hobbies. I was a great little educator and diversion for him.

 

He just didn't have the guts to take hold of a new life and live it. So glad I found out because his wife did me the freatest favour by calling him back .

 

Gentlegirl

 

If I couldn't stop him from cheating, sneaking, lying, and having sex with you.....

 

Why would you believe I could stop him from leaving me? Contacting you? Being with you?

 

I find this way of thinking angry and convoluted also. I didn't control him during the affair.

 

What makes you think I could control him after the affair?

[donnamaybe]

Ok, call it self centeredness then or whatever you want. The fact remains it's not really ok to go back to your marriage after an A and fix nothing and just go on like it never happened. If you are cheating on your partner, especially when you create an entire relationship with your AP (meeting their friends, going out in public together, spending large amounts of time together) there is either something very wrong in your marriage or something very wrong with you. Can we all agree upon that?

 

But what gives you the impression there was anything to fix besides the cheater? There may not have been anything wrong in the M and EVERYTHING wrong with the WS. And that is up to him/her to fix, and it is up to the BS whether or not to put up with a WS who refuses to fix it.

[Silly_Girl]

But what gives you the impression there was anything to fix besides the cheater? There may not have been anything wrong in the M and EVERYTHING wrong with the WS. And that is up to him/her to fix, and it is up to the BS whether or not to put up with a WS who refuses to fix it.

 

She didn't say it was ONLY the marriage. She was explicit about the marriage and/or individual. I tend to think it's both to a greater/lesser degree, where the affair has become fairly established.

[donnamaybe]

The MM are cake eaters and the OW are delusional Seriously, people who wait that long to ME are needy and insecure. They are willing to put their lives on hold and will wait and wait and wait....until the MM says he is done. I actually have a lot of pity for the women/men who wait in the wings for years; claiming of course they don't want to marry him; yet we all know if the cheater were to divorce, the AP would jump at the chance to marry.

Absolutely agree with this in those kind of circumstances.

So you are claiming the wife controls the husband? Is that just because he chose her instead of you? You sound like you have sour grapes that you were (I'm sure you meant weren't here) picked. I am sorry he hurt you so bad; but you willingly had an affair with him. Yes, he lied to you - all MM lie. Man, if this guy was so easily controlled by the wife, however did he find the time to have an affair with you for 3 years? Did you not notice how cowardly he was when you were with him? Stop blaming his wife. Blame HIM. He chose the marriage. He chose to stay. Be mad at him, not his wife. She doesn't have magical powers to keep him married, since she obviously didn't have magical powers so he would stay faithful

I know, huh?! Talking about the BS jerking the guy back to his "kennel." That was most definitely an attack on the BS. How could anyone possibly know HOW the wife got her H to remember who he was committed to? Maybe after she found out about his philandering, he HIMSELF begged and pleaded for her to LET him back. Seems like the more likely scenario to me.

[bentnotbroken]

Ok, call it self centeredness then or whatever you want. The fact remains it's not really ok to go back to your marriage after an A and fix nothing and just go on like it never happened. If you are cheating on your partner, especially when you create an entire relationship with your AP (meeting their friends, going out in public together, spending large amounts of time together) there is either something very wrong in your marriage or something very wrong with you. Can we all agree upon that?

 

 

Yup,yup:bunny::bunny::bunny:total agreement.

[alexandria35]

Geminigirl I think it's awesome that you stood up for what you want and ended the affair. Otherwise he could have kept you hanging for many more years and wasting your precious time. So I admire your courage and your resolve. Too many women hang onto crappy relationships waiting for the man to change and give them what they need, myself included, so good for you!

 

I see what the other posters are saying too. GG I think you and a lot of OW project onto the MM. You cheated because your marriage was bad and you were no longer in love with your husband, therefore that must be why all married men cheat too. You ended your marriage, therefore your MM should too and the fact that he doesn't means he is just a big coward who is afraid of his wife. I think men are different than women when it comes to affairs. I think what drives them the most is selfishness. They're not afraid of standing up to their wives, they're afraid of losing her, but they don't want to lose the OW either. They want both! They are selfish selfish selfish. Wouldn't we all love to have a couple of people at our beck and call who are willing to love us and meet our varied needs? That's what the MM has. He is basking in two very different types of love. The comfortable mature love he has with his wife and the passionate new love he has for the OW.

 

I think many men have far less romantic notions than woman do too. Oh sure they like romance and passionate sex but I think most realize that that is not sustainable for years and years on end and that it would be stupid to leave a long standing marriage to chase a fantasy. I'm not saying that long term marriages can't have passion and romance, but it tends to ebb and flow. Sometimes it's there and sometimes it's not. I think when men picture themselves in old age they see themselves surrounded by their wife, their children and extended family. When they are old and drooling, who is going to hold their hand and wipe their chin? The good old wife who has spent a lifetime with him, through all the good and bad, or the OW who he used to have hot monkey sex with when he could still get it up? You say he stayed because it's comfortable, familliar and secure. Well that's exactly what mature and lasting love feels like for a lot of people. It can also feel stale and kind of boring so some people like to look for thrills. An honest loyal man might take up mountain climbing or sky diving, a selfish disloyal man might start having affairs.

 

You said something along the lines of 'once you get a taste of that apple, you can never go back'. Well if your affair was the first time you ever got a taste of being in a passionate, heated love relationship where the chemistry and the connection feels almost supernatural, I can see why it left you feeling like it's the bees knees. I think OW often think that only they have ever experienced such thing and nobody else understands. But actually many many women get seduced into these strong passionate chemistry relationships. Actually pretty much anyone who has had a romantic relationship with a personality disordered person has experienced this type of relationship. Not saying that your MM has a personality disorder or that you do. I just mean that a lot of these special spiritual passionate relationships bite the dust in the most painful ways. It happened to me and it wasn't an affair. I've since learned that being completely enveloped and enthralled by a romantic love isn't the end all and be all of happiness and truth be told it's not even really healthy.

 

I kind of think you are still looking at the affair through slighty rose tinted glasses. You believe that it was only you he loved and that you would be together if only it wasn't for that controlling wife who he was afraid to stand up too. I think he loved you and his wife in different ways and he wanted you both because of his selfishness and his lack of respect for both you and his wife.

[26pointblue]

26, I have to say you must be the most forgiving person on this board. I don't say that sarcastically either. I am all about forgiving people and thanking them for the wisdom the brought into my life and all that, but I am having a really hard time finding forgiveness for my exMM right now. I can forgive him for not choosing me, I really can. What I'm having a harder time with is his coming back around after I walked away from him for almost a month and forcing me be the bad guy who had to tell him he can't be my friend and to get lost. I asked him what he wanted from me and his response was, "How about a thank you for calling you?" Are you effing kidding me? Really? I should thank you for calling me after a month and offering me basically nothing after I offered you a life together and my love and you turned me down? Yeah, I guess I just haven't evolved enough yet to get over a betrayal of that magnitude.

 

I understand where you're at. I think there are different stages & you are in anger & that's normal & fine. Sometimes yes I am still angry at xMM. But I've had to forgive him to be able to forgive myself & move on.

 

As far as 'forgiving' xMM goes. It is more about forgiving myself. It's more about seeing how no matter how much of a 'monster' xMM turned out to be, I willingly offered myself up to him. I had issues that made me stay with him just as he had issues that made him do what he did. I could always relate to my xMM so strongly. He was a man with issues, & I was a woman with issues. We were both pretty d*mn screwed up. I am really working on my issues & in doing so I see that he is who he is . . . a man who is selfish because he is unhappy with himself, insecure, needy. And I had similar issues. I do hope my xMM is working on himself & his issues but really I try not to focus on him. If I get mad at him, or anger & hatred boils up in me, I try to reflect back on myself, & remind myself he didn't do anything to me that I didn't let him do. And I don't mean that I start to hate myself [although at one time I did] . . . I mean that I realize I was who I was at that time, & I'm working to become a happier person, & I must give myself grace & forgiveness, & it only makes sense to extend that same feeling back to xMM. It's the only way for me to make sense of it all, to process it & move on & be happier.

 

But I think what struck me in your posts was the anger & how you kept saying you feel sorry for the wife & would never want to be her etc. Which is strange for me to read because in your case the wife didn't even find out [if I'm reading/remembering your posts correctly] . . . so why the vitriol towards wives who stay after D-Day when that didn't even happen to the BS in your situation? To me the wife issue was the key to my way out . . . not my way out of the affair because I was done with it by the time I processed it, but my way out of hatred [self-hatred & hatred & anger at xMM & feeling stuck in the past & what we had done instead of being able to move on to the future].

 

So as far as feeling sorry for the wife or wives in general goes [i know this post is long but I feel it was really important for me & so I hope maybe it can help you, with the anger & hurt . . . if not, sorry for getting so wordy], well, one of my lightbulb moments was thinking hmmmm, I felt sorry for myself when I was involved with xMM . . . I look back & feel sorry that I let myself hurt like that, I let xMM hurt me, I hurt myself. I was a mess & didn't know what to do & getting out of it was definitely the right thing for me. But who am I to say what is best for his wife? How can I feel sorry for her or look down on her for staying with him [& believe me, at one time I definitely did], when I feel sorry for my own self for putting myself in that situation . . . & she did not put herself in that situation. She was dealing with hurt caused to her by xMM, with my help . . . she was/is not dealing with hurt she brought upon herself [like I'm dealing with . . . & xMM is dealing with if he is dealing with it.]

 

To me trying to put myself in his wife's shoes was a very essential part of my healing. Maybe it's because I knew her personally before we started the affair. Maybe it's because I've realized I was acting out some childhood 'mom/wife' issues in the affair & I feel I sub-consciously or even sometimes consciously targeted her. I posted a thread awhile back about how I realized I judged women whose identities revolved around their husbands/kids [or seemed to, to me], based on my own past [mom issues/ dad issues] & based on fear of being hurt. I think that was the single best thing I learned from the experience . . . not even why I shouldn't date a married man, but why I was dating a married man, what my own personal issues were, & how to deal with them, & for me they involved his wife or wives in general.

 

Even if you don't have this personal issue like I did, I still feel it could be helpful for you, because of the anger that drips from your posts when you talk about wives who stay with their cheating husbands, to try to put yourself in the shoes of a woman who stays & see why she might want to stay with him. When I did this it all made a lot more sense & felt very freeing to me for some reason. Here are some things I thought about. My xMM was very convincing- to both me & his BS- he could play us both like a fiddle. I began to realize even during the affair that he was crawling back to her & promising her the world like he was to me- he's a changed man, he loves & values her, he'll do anything to keep his family. [in my case she called me & told me some things he was doing to act like the perfect husband & father . . . & I recently found out through a mutual friend that while our affair was going on he renewed his vows with her & bought her a $10,000 ring. Honestly it didn't surprise me because I had come to accept that he was doing everything he could to get her to stay with him] . . . if she is a fool for buying into all of that, then I am even more of a fool for ever staying in the affair with him -- I didn't get 'actions' like vows [which I consider to be action in addition to words], I didn't get a 'token' like a ring, let alone one that cost that much! I got his attention, his sweet words which meant nothing in the end, his empty promises . . . he stayed put after D-Day & D-Day & D-Day & I stayed with him for way too long . . . so how could I possibly judge her for staying with him?!

 

She's his wife & as someone who has been married [this part was also a new revelation to me, having never been married, & it gave me a new understanding of what marriage is compared to what I thought it 'should be' or was], I'm sure you understand that that involves a shared history & family & choices about whether to break up the children's home [& in my case xMM's BS was one of those women whose wohle life does seem to be based on her husband & family, so in a way she would be losing her whole identity should they divorce . . . I also understand why she would not just want to kick out her husband of all those years so that a newcomer could have what they worked to build . . . I get that]. . . she had every incentive to want to stay with him & just wanted him to stop hurting her. If I feel sorry for her because of that, then I have to feel extra sorry for myself for being someone who could help cause that level of hurt & destruction to her . . . **I** was part of the reason she was having to decide whether to stay with him or not! That was a huge revelation for me . . . to see my part in things & examine why I was judging her for staying with him, why I couldn't understand it, why I felt sorry for her.

 

Also, my xMM's BS truly loved him. It was obvious, when I knew them before the affair, when I was in the affair, now that I'm out of the affair . . . she was & is madly in love with her husband. She loved him despite his many many flaws, she loved him even when he hurt her, she loved the life they had together, she loved him as her husband & the father of her children. I could pick apart her motives for it or say she should not etc. but I am left with this huge thought: what do you do with such a big love? Does it wear off or fall away because you find out this person you love so much betrayed you? I really wish for everyone's sake that it was this simple but as we all know, it's not. In your case you weren't in love with your husband & I don't know if you ever were with him or anyone & I honestly can't say I have known a love like I've realized my xMM's wife loves him -- wholly, completely, madly in love -- & I imagine it never, ever goes away. Yes you can leave the person & honestly I believe my xMM's wife would have left him eventually . . . she just kept wanting to believe he was truly done, she was willing to forgive him as long as it was done but at a certain point she did have a breaking point but that doesn't mean the love would disappear. She hurt so badly because she loved him so much. She was still there fighting for the marriage despite all her hurt because she loved him. When I realized that I was deeply humbled & honestly I was jealous of his wife. Not because she 'had' him -- by that time I no longer wanted him, I realized I am much better off without him, I was quite unsure why or how she could love him like that & want to be with him -- it had nothing to do with him [except that I honestly don't believe he deserved her love, but, he had it] & everything to do with the fact that I have never loved anyone like that. I think I would take the hurt if I could have that love. I had been so afraid of being hurt that I couldn't open myself up to love like that, & she had, & had been hurt, but I wanted what she had-- love.

 

I don't know if my post is making sense. It means something really deeply to me but maybe I'm not getting the words out right. I don't feel sorry for my xMM's wife. I used to, & I used to not understand her, & I used to pretty much dislike her all around, but through working all of that out I feel I've learned something priceless & I would like to be able to love like that one day without all the hurt, but, hurt is a part of love, always a risk. I think forgiveness is also a part of love. I hope he isn't hurting her anymore - I have a feeling he probably is, but, I hope not - & I'm glad I'm no longer participating in hurting her, & I don't feel sorry for her or wives like her at all. I actually admire them, something I never ever thought I would do. To say 'I would never stay with a man who cheated on me' to me sounds so simplistic - if you loved him with everything you had, & you believed in him & your future together & he was telling you that he was sorry & you were the only woman he ever loved etc. etc. etc. - you just might, & I wouldn't feel sorry for you. I would feel sorry for the guy who doesn't value a love like that [xMM] & for women who have never known a love like that, but not for the woman who does.

 

My intention in writing this was to help. I don't mean to come across as preachy or judgmental or like some champion for betrayed wives, which would be ironic since I have never been one & have actually helped betray one! I do understand where you're at & I'm just trying to explain where I'm at. :-) I think you have learned a lot & I'm glad you're happier & wiser! Part of your posts just really reminded me of me . . . I can relate, & I think the only good thing that comes out of this stuff is to keep learning & growing so this is my food for thought on the part of your posts that struck me as having more room to learn & grow in. I wish you all the best. :-)

[26pointblue]

Thanks for this 26!

 

And like your xMM's wife, I did make his life a horrible living hell for a very long time.

 

I didn't want him unless he had the courage to change and grow. Hell, I kept trying not to reconcile and remained very, very guarded and uncommitted to a future with him for a very long time.

 

He had to prove to me he had changed into a man I could trust and respect again, bear my pain, and my anger, show me love...

 

That took a lot of courage.

 

You're welcome, ha ha. Your posts & viewpoint have helped me a lot. It was so important for me to see the other side of things. I really appreciate how BS & OW can talk here & if neither has bad intentions towards the other [which I know you don't . . . & I know some BS do & some OW do etc.] I feel like both 'sides' learn so much from the other. It is really invaluable & that's why I hate when people start saying this forum should only be for OWs or for those who do not condemn affairs etc.

 

As for the rest of your post . . . when xMM's wife called me she said something so similar to what you wrote. That she was done with him, he kept hurting her & she told him to leave & even kicked him out but then he kept coming back & begging her to stay with him. She said she didn't want to be hurt anymore & was remaining guarded.

 

I truly hope my xMM is a changed man like your husband & he is truly treating her well & not hurting her anymore. I feel a lot of pain for her even though I feel like I have no right to since I helped cause it . . . I mean I willingly helped cause it for quite some time because I knew she was in pain but I kept going back with him, I kept coming up with excuses & justifications & I didn't even understand why I kept doing it but I did . . . so now who am I to feel bad about it but I do. At the same time I've forgiven myself for it, it's weird . . . I don't beat myself up about it like I used to [usually] & I just look at it as me not having a clue how important things were supposed to work - marriage, love, commitment, etc. - at the time & now I do understand it & so I am not doing that anymore, ever, so . . . I don't know, sorry for rambling but I honestly hope my xMM's wife is healing.

 

It's weird, I don't even think anything good or bad towards xMM . . . I have moments where I think one or the other but overall I just feel like, he is insignificant to me, I have moved on & put him behind me & am glad he's in my past & generally wish him well but honestly if he is happy, if he is unhappy, if he is up to his old tricks, if he is a changed man, it really doesn't mean much to me either way because I'm just focused on myself. But when I think about his wife I really do hope he has changed & I truly hope they are happy. Maybe it eases my guilt. I don't know. It's the weirdest thing but it's there.

[spice4life]

Don't want to retell my entire tale here, but suffice it to say my A with a MM is over. I am M too but getting divorced. My AP and I never got caught. I have a friend in a similar situation. Her MM just got caught by his W and now he is trying to get her to stay in the affair with him, while he goes to MC with his W. Back to my situation for a sec, offered him an amazing life with me and he won't leave. I went NC with him a month ago and recently he called me to see if I am ok. Yeah. No thank you. We are not friends. If you want to talk to me leave your W, otherwise get lost.

 

Anyway, went back to NC and told him don't come back around unless you are getting a divorce. After thinking about my situation and my friend's situation, I came to the conclusion that both of these men and 99.9% of the men and women I read about here, who claim to be in love with their AP, but go back to their marriages, are total COWARDS! Ok, I am not condoning my choice to get involved in an affair. It was stupid. Fine. Call it what you will. But, I am leaving my marriage even though my A is over. I know what I want from a man, keyword here being a MAN! I don't want some ball-less wonder who is too afraid of his W to leave and follow his heart. Seriously, it is so NOT SEXY! So what I would say to all of you OW/OM here is, people you deserve better! Go out and find yourself someone worthy of you!! Leave these wimps to their spouses and let them sit around indefinitely in their lousy marriages while you go out and live an amazing life! To me that is the absolute best revenge of all.

 

Lol!! You are so right, it is not sexy! Thanks for the laugh and good for you telling him where to stick it.

[Heart On]

Cowardly or Passive aggressive with a Characer Disorder?

 

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/passive-aggressive-behavior/AN01563

 

Passive-aggressive behavior is a pattern of indirectly expressing negative feelings instead of openly addressing them. There's a disconnect between what a passive-aggressive person says and what he or she does. For a passive-aggressive person, true feelings are shared through actions, not words.

For example, a passive-aggressive person might appear to agree — perhaps even enthusiastically — with another person's request.

 

 

Rather than completing the task, however, he or she might express anger or resentment by missing deadlines, showing up late to meetings, making excuses or even working against the task.

 

 

Specific signs and symptoms of passive-aggressive behavior include:

• Resentment and opposition to the demands of others
  
• Complaining about feeling underappreciated or cheated
  
• Procrastination
  
• Stubbornness
  
• Inefficiency
  
• Memory lapses
  
• Sullenness
  
• Irritability
  
• Cynical or hostile attitude
  

 

http://passiveaggressive.homestead.com/PATraits.html

 

http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/abusiverelationships/a/Pass_Agg.htm

 

I think most of them are straight up Passive Aggressives who never intended on doing anything but overtly and covertly hurting women in an attempt to control some part of thier own life.

 

I got wise to the fact that he was simply

using me to Passive Aggressively,covertly abuse his wife,

called him on it and he admitted...."I'm not wired right".

 

LOL...NO SH*T!