Interesting Article Married with Infidelities

[chalkfarm]

I hope it is alright to post this link..... you might have to cut and paste...

 

Anyway, NY Times article Married, With Infidelities by Dan Savage. Very interesting from all perspectives! Throws some ideas out regarding some questions in earlier posts. Read to the end of the article as the last paragraphs should not be missed.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/03/magazine/infidelity-will-keep-us-together.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

[PhoenixRise]

Thank you for posting this. The article is excellent food for thought.

[OpenBook]

Ha. He is so right. Especially describing the drawbacks of monogamy. To wit:

• boredom
  
• despair
  
• lack of variety
  
• sexual death
  
• being taken for granted.
  

So true about marriage!

[Silly_Girl]

I really liked the line about how using fidelity as a benchmark of a 'good' marriage is setting ourselves up to fail.

 

And I've no preconceived ideas of nonmonogamous Rs, I can see the appeal and it's all about the honesty. If you have that then literally anything is up for discussion.

 

Thanks chalkfarm.

[silktricks]

Really liked the article. I've got to admit that what I got out of it matched KS . I liked the line about neither monogamy nor non-monogamy being "normal", that it's variety that is normal.

 

But I also really liked the line that KS quoted about being "whores for each other" I think that's a really important concept that a lot of people forget about (or never learned in the first place ).

[spice4life]

I hope it is alright to post this link..... you might have to cut and paste...

 

Anyway, NY Times article Married, With Infidelities by Dan Savage. Very interesting from all perspectives! Throws some ideas out regarding some questions in earlier posts. Read to the end of the article as the last paragraphs should not be missed.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/03/magazine/infidelity-will-keep-us-together.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

 

I skimmed through the article and feel his view is selfish and one sided. He only talks about the needs of a couple in a marriage, but doesn't mention anything about the feelings of the unsuspecting outsider, who many times, is left hurt and devastated. I think couples that subscribe to allowing infidelity, need to take responsibility and only engage with people outside the marriage that hold the same beliefs. It is irresponsible to cheat with someone, only to satisfy a sexual yearning, if you are not honest with that person.

 

One of the biggest issues I had in my situation was how he withheld himself from me emotionally without being honest about why. I knew why and told him many times how painful that was for me, but he didn't "hear" it. He continued to treat me the same way over and over again. It became apparent that he was only satisfying sexual urges with me. He never told me what his arrangement with his wife was and if it was what is described in this article, then it was irresponsible of him

[woinlove]

I skimmed through the article and feel his view is selfish and one sided. He only talks about the needs of a couple in a marriage, but doesn't mention anything about the feelings of the unsuspecting outsider, who many times, is left hurt and devastated. I think couples that subscribe to allowing infidelity, need to take responsibility and only engage with people outside the marriage that hold the same beliefs. It is irresponsible to cheat with someone, only to satisfy a sexual yearning, if you are not honest with that person.

 

One of the biggest issues I had in my situation was how he withheld himself from me emotionally without being honest about why. I knew why and told him many times how painful that was for me, but he didn't "hear" it. He continued to treat me the same way over and over again. It became apparent that he was only satisfying sexual urges with me. He never told me what his arrangement with his wife was and if it was what is described in this article, then it was irresponsible of him

 

I agree that people in open marriages should be honest with their other partners too. My H and I always have been, although we have joked about him hiding the fact that I know. But we wouldn't go that route because we value honesty. The reason we joke about it is that some prospective women partners are more amenable to getting together with a MM if they think his W doesn't know. I know one man in an open M who has lied to OW about his M being open for this reason. From what I've learned on LS, I assume this has something to do with competitiveness among women or perhaps OW think they have a better chance of getting the MM away from the W if the W is kept in the dark. Women in open M don't typically have this problem with potential OM. I think Savage would advocate for honesty with all involved.

[spice4life]

I agree that people in open marriages should be honest with their other partners too. My H and I always have been, although we have joked about him hiding the fact that I know. But we wouldn't go that route because we value honesty. The reason we joke about it is that some prospective women partners are more amenable to getting together with a MM if they think his W doesn't know. I know one man in an open M who has lied to OW about his M being open for this reason. From what I've learned on LS, I assume this has something to do with competitiveness among women or perhaps OW think they have a better chance of getting the MM away from the W if the W is kept in the dark. Women in open M don't typically have this problem with potential OM. I think Savage would advocate for honesty with all involved.

 

I hear what you are saying, but I feel if a man has to lie to keep an OW involved, isn't that a major warning sign that she may get emotionally attached? Shouldn't the MM stay away from involving someone who doesn't want to know to prevent hurt dwn the road instead of hiding it? I think they should be honest up front so the person can choose because hiding it is only serving the needs of the MP and not the OP. If the OP shows signs they don't want to know, then the MP should not get involved with them and tell them why, so OP can get over it and move on. This is where taking responsibility for your choices to allow infidelity is important. If you are respecting the emotional bond with your partner, then it is your responsibility to choose an OP that can handle it. Again, if an OP shows signs that they do not want to know then the MP should not involve them because they are setting them up for hurt.

[Got it]

I skimmed through the article and feel his view is selfish and one sided. He only talks about the needs of a couple in a marriage, but doesn't mention anything about the feelings of the unsuspecting outsider, who many times, is left hurt and devastated. I think couples that subscribe to allowing infidelity, need to take responsibility and only engage with people outside the marriage that hold the same beliefs. It is irresponsible to cheat with someone, only to satisfy a sexual yearning, if you are not honest with that person.

 

One of the biggest issues I had in my situation was how he withheld himself from me emotionally without being honest about why. I knew why and told him many times how painful that was for me, but he didn't "hear" it. He continued to treat me the same way over and over again. It became apparent that he was only satisfying sexual urges with me. He never told me what his arrangement with his wife was and if it was what is described in this article, then it was irresponsible of him

 

Spice, if he told you through his actions that he was not going to give you more, you have to own your piece in it. What you stated above can happen in any relationship unfortunately and while we would love for the other party to always be honest, in all reality that is going to happen. In his defense, potentially he didn't know what he wanted, he thought he was, he was disconnected with himself to not see things.

 

But telling once is one thing, having to tell someone something repeatedly, well . . . this is a case of watching his actions. He was telling you his side, you weren't listening to it.

 

((((spice)))) I am sorry for the pain. Know that you tried, you gave yourself, and look at the lessons you learned that will help you going forward. Now you know what this looks like and can nip in the bud in the future. You have prioritized yourself and your needs and stick to them. I know it hurt but if there is any positive, look at what you learned and accomplished.

[spice4life]

Spice, if he told you through his actions that he was not going to give you more, you have to own your piece in it. What you stated above can happen in any relationship unfortunately and while we would love for the other party to always be honest, in all reality that is going to happen. In his defense, potentially he didn't know what he wanted, he thought he was, he was disconnected with himself to not see things.

 

But telling once is one thing, having to tell someone something repeatedly, well . . . this is a case of watching his actions. He was telling you his side, you weren't listening to it.

 

((((spice)))) I am sorry for the pain. Know that you tried, you gave yourself, and look at the lessons you learned that will help you going forward. Now you know what this looks like and can nip in the bud in the future. You have prioritized yourself and your needs and stick to them. I know it hurt but if there is any positive, look at what you learned and accomplished.

 

Not to worry, I own my piece in it. I also deluded myself into thinking he was something different than who he actually is. My fault too, but, and that's a very big but, that is what A's do to people who aren't given the whole truth up front. So, let's say he had an arrangement with his W, showing through actions or not, he should be honest up front about the arrangement. I am talking about people who make the conscious choice to allow infidelity as a couple. If they make that choice, then they have a responsibility to the OP they bring into the situation. Actions, manipulations, hidden truths etc do not fly if you openly make that choice as a couple. Be mindful of who you bring in is all that I am saying.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Ha. He is so right. Especially describing the drawbacks of monogamy. To wit:

• boredom
  
• despair
  
• lack of variety
  
• sexual death
  
• being taken for granted.
  

So true about marriage!

 

Is it?

 

What does boredom mean? What makes someone bored in a marriage?

 

Is it really monogamy that causes despair? WTF? I've been in some really long monogamous relationships and I never felt despair because of it.

 

Lack of variety... This really is a drawback, however I've found that familiarity and comfort are just as important.

 

Sexual death? WTF? Monogamy will make my dick fall off? If you are in a sexless marriage... I don't think you can blame monogamy in general... I think it's a specific issue with your partner.

 

Being taken for granted is a big issue, but again... that isn't because of monogamy.

 

The real drawback to monogamy is suffered by insecure people. Those who need constant sexual attraction to feed their faltering egos will always feel stifled.

[woinlove]

I hear what you are saying, but I feel if a man has to lie to keep an OW involved, isn't that a major warning sign that she may get emotionally attached? Shouldn't the MM stay away from involving someone who doesn't want to know to prevent hurt dwn the road instead of hiding it? I think they should be honest up front so the person can choose because hiding it is only serving the needs of the MP and not the OP. If the OP shows signs they don't want to know, then the MP should not get involved with them and tell them why, so OP can get over it and move on. This is where taking responsibility for your choices to allow infidelity is important. If you are respecting the emotional bond with your partner, then it is your responsibility to choose an OP that can handle it. Again, if an OP shows signs that they do not want to know then the MP should not involve them because they are setting them up for hurt.

 

I agree. I think that MM behaves badly by misleading the OW about his M and I wouldn't want to get involved with him. But I don't want to get involved with MM who are lying to their W either. Obviously a lot of women feel differently.

[spice4life]

I agree. I think that MM behaves badly by misleading the OW about his M and I wouldn't want to get involved with him. But I don't want to get involved with MM who are lying to their W either. Obviously a lot of women feel differently.

 

I completely agree on both points. The affair world is not for me...I had to learn that the ard way, unfortunately, but I learned it none-the-less. And don't get me wrong, I don't have an issue with open marriages, I think honesty up front with the OPs is extremely important though.

 

Have a great 4th everyone!

[OldOnTheInside]

Is it?

 

What does boredom mean? What makes someone bored in a marriage?

 

Is it really monogamy that causes despair? WTF? I've been in some really long monogamous relationships and I never felt despair because of it.

 

Lack of variety... This really is a drawback, however I've found that familiarity and comfort are just as important.

 

Sexual death? WTF? Monogamy will make my dick fall off? If you are in a sexless marriage... I don't think you can blame monogamy in general... I think it's a specific issue with your partner.

 

Being taken for granted is a big issue, but again... that isn't because of monogamy.

 

The real drawback to monogamy is suffered by insecure people. Those who need constant sexual attraction to feed their faltering egos will always feel stifled.

 

Don't blame the system. Blame the people in the system.

 

Or stop throwing around the eff word (all your fault) like it actually means something.

[spice4life]

Spice, if he told you through his actions that he was not going to give you more, you have to own your piece in it. What you stated above can happen in any relationship unfortunately and while we would love for the other party to always be honest, in all reality that is going to happen. In his defense, potentially he didn't know what he wanted, he thought he was, he was disconnected with himself to not see things.

 

But telling once is one thing, having to tell someone something repeatedly, well . . . this is a case of watching his actions. He was telling you his side, you weren't listening to it.

 

((((spice)))) I am sorry for the pain. Know that you tried, you gave yourself, and look at the lessons you learned that will help you going forward. Now you know what this looks like and can nip in the bud in the future. You have prioritized yourself and your needs and stick to them. I know it hurt but if there is any positive, look at what you learned and accomplished.

 

Couple more things Gotit. I am already miles ahead of this whole thing and thank you for empathizing..much appreciated. The thing is, this guy not only showed what I truly meant to him trough his actions, he also played the jealousy card on me. He actually had the nerve to accuse me of being a cheater all the while treating me like that. Yeah, go figure, right? And he never had that kahones to talk to me about it face to face...he did it through his friends. Actually, he is the biggest coward I have ever met. So, there was a lot more to this whole story that I never posted about, but believe me, it wasn't as easy to get out of as you put it. I was put through the wringer and he never even had the guts to apologize to me face to face. He always hid behind texting and even then didn't have the guts to say sorry after putting me through a horrible ordeal.

 

I'm sorry for the threadjack, I don't even know why I'm even venting about this now because it doesn't even matter anymore. Something in that article struck a nerve and my gut always told me there was an unspoken rule in their marriage that permitted physical cheating, but not emotional. It would have been nice if he clued me in on that little fact instead of manipulating me into thinking he actually cared. This is why it is important to be responsible when making the pact in a marriage that it is okay to cheat. People can get very very hurt if they are not told the truth. Don't hook someone into falling in love just so you can enjoy a little sumptum sumptum on the side. By the time I realized he wasn't separated it was too late...I already fell in love and it was pure hell after that..

 

Okay, end of my rant. I must have had some residual anger about what he put me through. Feels good to finally get it out. Whew!

[fooled once]

Ha. He is so right. Especially describing the drawbacks of monogamy. To wit:

• boredom
  
• despair
  
• lack of variety
  
• sexual death
  
• being taken for granted.
  

So true about marriage!

 

How sad for anyone in any type of relationship who feels the above.

 

I am thankful that my marriage is nothing like Open Book described above.

 

Heck, even my first marriage wasn't as OB described! If you are feeling those things, then the marriage isn't good for you that's for sure.

 

For me, an affair is

 

Anxiety

Needy

Lonesome

Sad

Lonely

Cowardly

Lack of commitment

STD's

 

and various other things. Maye an affair is sexual appealing, but for me, sex isn't a relationship.

[NoIDidn't]

How sad for anyone in any type of relationship who feels the above.

 

I am thankful that my marriage is nothing like Open Book described above.

 

Heck, even my first marriage wasn't as OB described! If you are feeling those things, then the marriage isn't good for you that's for sure.

 

For me, an affair is

 

Anxiety

Needy

Lonesome

Sad

Lonely

Cowardly

Lack of commitment

STD's

 

and various other things. Maye an affair is sexual appealing, but for me, sex isn't a relationship.

 

OB takes swipes at marriage all the time. Maybe she's been so hurt she can't believe that a monogamous R is ever for her again.

 

I don't see the "variety" part of her argument fitting for an affair considering that usually the OP is single and not getting any variety - the married person is.

 

Is OB really saying that she believes that married people should use single/other people to lessen the boredom in their marriages and help them have sexually variety while staying married?