Does this sound like a real apology to you?

[Dooda]

"I would like to tell you I am sorry for all the things that I had done that could’ve hurt you without me meaning to."

 

Does this sound like a real apology?

[Art_Critic]

Left handed.. the without me meaning to was an excuse rather than an apology..

 

Tone is everything.. how was their tone and has their actions shown that they meant the apology

[Dooda]

No, this was my mother sending me a 'sorry' through e-mail... This is the only sorry she's ever given me.

Her actions show no justice to her 'apology'... She has since been treating me in the same manner she has for years..

I believe there is no possible improvement to our relationship... I am just coming to terms with that, though it's hard.

[whichwayisup]

Take it for what it's worth and see if her future actions show you she is truly sorry..And, if her behaviour changes for the better then her apology is real and means something.

[Lucky_One]

Sounds like you wouldn't be happy unless she was grovelling on her knees.

 

Being an adult also means accepting apologies gracefully. She apologized, and for the first time (according to you). Be thankful that you got it, and stop complaining that it wasn't worded precisely as you would have preferred.

[Dooda]

Sounds like you wouldn't be happy unless she was grovelling on her knees.

 

Being an adult also means accepting apologies gracefully. She apologized, and for the first time (according to you). Be thankful that you got it, and stop complaining that it wasn't worded precisely as you would have preferred.

 

I would have accepted it, if I knew, with all honesty, that her apology was sincere.

 

It's not the wording. It's that I know my mother. She has and can never sincerely give an apology with no backtracking...

 

She has made no improvement in the way she deals with me. She still goes into psychotic, bipolar episodes and says extremely degrading and mean things, she still nitpicks on almost everything I do, she is still extremely spiteful and can never find any justice in what I do.

 

I want to accept an apology, and I want to know or at least hope that she can change. But that seems impossible...

[Lucky_One]

You still nitpick everything SHE does, and YOU say mean and degrading things about her.

 

As I said, it very well may be a sincere apology from her (and I personally see nothing wrong with what she said), but you are so angry and upset with her that you will find fault with whatever she does.

 

Back when I was in marriage counseling years ago, our therapist told us that there becomes a huge downward vortex that sucks both people down. Both are upset, both are angry, both take offense at the smallest things. And until one of you is willing to take a step upwards out of that spiral, you will both go down until it is irretrievably broken.

 

Sounds like you and your mother. When someone makes a positive movement upwards, the other one takes it further downward.

 

If you really want this to change and be better, then you have to start with yourself. Accept the apology, tell her how much you appreciate it - and mean it. And start countering her negative actions and words with positive ones. But someone has to make the first move upward, and let go of the negative energy and misery that you are dragging along with you in a backpack.

[Dooda]

You seem quick to categorize my mother and I's relationship into one you recognize.

This is not a love/hate relationship.

During my childhood, I was physically, verbally and emotionally abused.

My father would go into complete rages and beat the crap out of me until he was tired and I couldn't take anymore. He would break my stuff and rip my clothes.

My mother would beat me until I was too big for her to beat me. However, she would still saying extremely hurtful things such as "I wish you were never born." "I never wanted a son" "You're a piece of garbage that will end up on the street one day," along with other, more direct insults such as, "Son of a bitch," "piece of ****" "dirt", etc...

This would go along side all the silent treatment that I would get for days after a verbal/physical beating session made to make me feel wrong about her and my father's actions.

 

I am now older, and able to realize how sick my parents are, especially my mother.

 

How would you know whether or not I say mean and degrading things to my mother? Everything I have said in this post is in no way degrading. I have said that she is practically bipolar, which is almost probably certain and would explain my inconsistent and brutal upbringing; either that or she has some sort of a personality disorder.

 

Ever since that apology, she has once again gone into one of her borderline-psychotic fits and tried, once again, to make me feel like utter crap because of one of her own mistakes (I won't go into detail about what that mistake was). This is aside from all the constant nitpicking she does at everything I do. She is constantly able to tell me how much wrong I am doing, and is never able to praise me for anything or recognize my values.

 

I can counter negative attitudes with positive ones, but there is a limit to what any person can take, and any more than that just leads to self-destruction.

 

Before you are so quick to analyze and judge, please make sure you know the situation of the person you are judging.

[Lucky_One]

Then fine, Dooda. If life was that horrible for you, then pull up your Under-roos, get a job, move out, and quit sucking off the family tit.

 

If it was REALLY that bad, then cut them out of your life and quit whining that you haven't gotten an apology. Monsters don't go around apologizing to people they hurt.

[CarlStevens]

Hi Dooda, sorry to hear about your difficult childhood. That must be very difficult to cope with.

 

I disagree with Lucky_One. He/she seems to be a bit biased due to their own experience.

 

Like you, I have had experience with such 'apologies'. It took me weeks of explaining to my parents how their actions hurt me before they even made the effort to 'apologize' (followed by excuses/justification).

 

A real apology: "I am truly sorry that I hurt you, please forgive me.'

A fake apology: "I am sorry if I hurt you, I didn't know. I just.. <followed by excuses/justification of hurtful actions>"

 

In your case:

"I would like to tell you I am sorry for all the things that I had done that could’ve hurt you without me meaning to."

 

That "could've" in there means that she doesn't really acknowledge that she has in fact hurt you. If she did, she would have said 'that I have hurt you'.

 

Unfortunately you can't change people like this. They will not take responsibility for their actions. I've tried for years, but people only change if they want to change themselves.

 

Good luck.

[Dooda]

Lucky_One... you once again assume things. Why are you so aggressive?

You assume I am sucking off the family tit.

I have moved away, about 2 years ago, and have been studying at university ever since.

Gosh, you sound just like my mother. I'm going to ignore you from now on. I hope you can accept that.

 

CarlStevens, thanks for your reply.

That's all I want, is an honest and sincere REAL apology followed by actions and intentions to suit it.

I am just coming to terms with the fact that I will and cannot change my family.

I am also just coming to terms with how truly horrible they are as people.

 

Both my father and mother have made the effort to apologize, but it was followed by the traditional "but, you have to understand that it was not our intention to mistreat you" thereby deluding any blame they can put on themselves and leaving me to question who is truly to blame..?

 

The hard part is letting this reality sink in, really sink in... I don't think it has yet.

[Lucky_One]

Ignore me all you want, but you have posted on here that you are financially dependent on your family.

 

You have posted for over a year about how horribly they treat you. You are an adult. You are starting to show abusive tendencies yourself, as well as substance abuse.

 

Step out of the dysfunction, if you really hate it. You only expect THEM to change. Make changes in YOUR life, don't wait for others to change to fit your needs or your wants. Do it yourself, instead of sitting around waiting for something to fall into your lap.

[Dooda]

Ignore me all you want, but you have posted on here that you are financially dependent on your family.

 

You have posted for over a year about how horribly they treat you. You are an adult. You are starting to show abusive tendencies yourself, as well as substance abuse.

 

Step out of the dysfunction, if you really hate it. You only expect THEM to change. Make changes in YOUR life, don't wait for others to change to fit your needs or your wants. Do it yourself, instead of sitting around waiting for something to fall into your lap.

 

K, I tried my best to ignore you, alas I cannot.

 

Your posts are extremely ignorant and very judgmental about things you know nothing about. You seem to be an expert on my life and attitudes hmmm...

Never once have I mentioned that I have shown substance abuse. Please kindly point me to where I have ever implied that. Your proof in stating that I "show abusive tendencies myself" is extremely lacking. Please kindly, once again, point me to where you could get the feeling that "I show abusive tendencies"... what planet are you living on?

 

I believe you relate your own situation to my own and seem to label me in the same way you most likely label your own son. You sound like a very unforgiving and judgmental person to be giving 'advice' to anyone.

 

This has nothing to do with dysfunction. This has to do with me wondering whether or not my family is truly capable of taking a step forward to mend a greatly faulty relationship based on abuse and my mistreatment. That is all.

This has nothing to do with me and the improvements I need to make. I will deal with that on MY OWN TIME.

However, in this thread, and in this post, I am simply trying to get an answer as to whether or not there is any hope for my mother improving the way she treats me.

If you do not have an answer, please do not post.

[Lucky_One]

"I constantly distance myself from people, and put on this attitude so that I can kind of make sure people won't like me."

 

"My only salvation is to drink, and when I drink I feel free, but when I'm not drinking, I feel reserved, scared, afraid of everything."

 

"I went upstairs and kept screaming, I was angry, I really couldn't control myself."

 

"I pushed my father away. My brother said, "Let's leave". My Dad kept standing in the doorway. I pushed him away, hard."

 

"I remember once, my brother and I got into a fight, and this was after I started showing resistance back, he started to get violent with me. I ran downstairs, and grabbed a hockey stick."

 

"I have started acting abusive back to my family, and I don't want to do this and give them an excuse that they are right. I don't want to turn into an abusive person."

 

"I will admit, I was the argumentative type, but that doesn't give them the right to take every inch of well being out of me."

 

"He started coming at me, and he pushed me, and I slapped him in the face, like he deserved it."

 

"they forced me to enter the program am I in in University (which I am failing)."

 

"This obviously doesn't happen anymore, because I don't let them. I defend myself. I react in the same way that they have been treating me for 18 years."

 

"They kicked me out of the house because I was acting in the same way that they have been acting towards me"

 

"I swear back now, I break their stuff, and I push them if they approach me (my father)."

 

"I am an enemy; I am an enemy to myself. There is no one else. I have been letting myself go and I have been doing nothing about it." (Dec 2009)

 

"I insult them, break their stuff around the house, even push them. What I understand is that this is wrong. I keep telling myself that I need to control myself if I want to keep my self-respect, but I can't. I can't keep it in when they insult me, look down on me and make me feel constantly bad. "

 

"It has gotten to the point where I am now sleeping in a Hotel away from my "family", until I get an apartment and can move on with my life." (Nov 2009)

 

"I'm moving out from my parents house in about a week, and I'm wondering if I should just remove them from my life totally." (Oct 2009)

 

"I never have avoided social situations, but now everytime I go, unless I'm under the influence of alcohol, I just don't feel myself"

 

"I insult them back, when they insult me. I even push my father, when he tries to get near me and threatens to hit me (I'm 18)."

 

"I've been convinced (by my own self) in the past that I have other mental illnesses like schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder and bipolar disorder." (Don't forget SAD and AvPD, btw, as the disorders you have also convinced yourself that you have.)

 

Dooda, I am NOT discounting what has happened in your family. What I AM saying is that for two YEARS you have been saying you are moving out, you are leaving, and you are STILL here with the identical issues that you had from the moment of your first post.

 

I probably read about 10 times where you said that ALL you wanted was an apology (and I can bring those here, too, if you don't believe me.). You have gotten the apology that was what you wanted, but it still doesn't make you happy. You are like a girl who says that all she wants is for her BF to propose, and when he does, she is unhappy because he did it in a restaurant instead of by hiring a plane to pull a banner saying "Will You Marry Me?" over the Super Bowl stadium.

 

It is time for you to take action on your own and change your life. It is time to stop talking about doing something. You can deal with changing your life "IN YOUR OWN TIME", but isn't a minimum of two years (both of those years in University where you have a relative amount of freedom from your parents and a chance for mental health care from your school) long enough to find your own time>

[Dooda]

If I remember correctly, in my first thread, the only comment you had to say was that I should fess up to my Dad and do what I'm told.

 

"Granted, my son may think I am semi-abusive, but.....

 

He had BEST not ever grunt at me and ask "Why?" when I tell him to go upstairs and put his shoes in his room.

 

"Why?" Because I freaking said so, because I am the parent, and because I don't want his freaking shoes in the living room. End of story. He's not even your age, OP, and he already knows that grunting and questioning me is not how to get things accomplished in life.

 

Let's say that you had said, "Sure, Dad," and had gotten up and carried the shoes up to your room. NONE of the following drama would have happened. Problem solved for the short-term."

 

God, you sound like a horrible mother and I feel sorry for your son. "Granted, my son may think I am semi-abusive"... so you don't really care what your son thinks of you?

"Because I freaking said so, because I am the parent." Treating your child like you're his boss is no way to act. A child needs reasoning in order for him to understand WHY he's obeying. Using the "BECAUSE I FRECKING SAID SO!" strategy works in the short term, but it's what gets you a, surprisingly, rebellious teenager who is fed up being told what to do by emotionally abusive parents.

"He knows that grunting and questioning me is not how to get things in life." Oh, I see, so it's by completely obeying you and NOT questioning you that he gets things in life. Yea...

"NONE of the following drama would have happened." Wrong. Had my father had control over HIS actions, NONE of the following drama would have happened. You're looking at it from the wrong side. You're implying that my actions are what led to his inexcusable actions. My (how dare I) rebellious questioning of my Dad led him to commit a sequence of crazy acts...

And, the point of the matter is, it was not the 'shoes' that led to the fight, it was a plethora of tension that had unleashed itself in that moment.

 

We can go on all day about general things and how you could be a completely non-credible source for 'advice' seeing as the way you treat your son is not one too fancy and your complete lack of understanding that abuse is not excusable.

 

The point of THIS thread was to understand whether or not my mother is truly capable of change. You're not READING, and simply writing your psychobabble, trying to 'preach' me with your nonsense.

I HAVE taken steps, I HAVE moved out. It will take more than a "Minimum" (as you put it) of 2 years to fully overcome 18 years of childhood abuse.

If you want to make an analogy like that, then the equivalent would be that the person who proposed to me left me hanging at the altair, with everyone watching.

 

To reply to your quotes of me:

Acting in self-defence is hardly an example of someone who is leaning towards "abusive tendencies". Saying that when I drink I feel good or relieved does not mean I am a "substance abuser" as you so kindly like to put it. Becoming hypochondriac is not something not common in anxiety.

What does all of that have anything to do with anything? It sounds like you're not actually trying to prove a point, and are simply trying to harass me by proving a point that has nothing to do with my initial post.

 

All I wanted to know, here, was whether my mother's apology was real, sincere, and MEANINGFUL. Judging from the other posts here, and myself, and my friends, it is NOT a real and meaningful apology.

My mother felt bad, because I completely blocked her from my life and was not talking to her, or keeping discussion to a minimum. However, as soon as the distance was closed, and we got 'close' again, the same old crap happened, and it was back to her feeling entitled to treat me like however she wants.

It doesn't work like that.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Dooda

[Lucky_One]

Trust me, Dooda, the relationship between my son and I is pretty daggone great.

 

And yes, when I tell him to take his shoes upstairs, he takes them upstairs and says "yes, ma'am". Matter of fact, he usually doesn't leave them downstairs. And it isn't because I yell at him or because he is afraid of me or because I beat him senseless.

 

It's because he is a reasonable child and I am a reasonable adult, and he knows that leaving your shoes in the living room isn't what we do in this house. It isn't because I am a monster and he is afraid. And yes, as a parent, there are many times when the easiest answer is "because I said so"; kids don't respond well to reasoning.

 

And yes, being an abused child leads you to becoming abusive yourself. And if you are already finding yourself picking up hockey sticks or shoving people, then yes, you have abusive tendencies.

 

It sounds like you have seen various therapists from age 14 or so? I sincerely hope you are seeing one now, to assist you in moving past your family.

 

Remember when you got so angry at your mother for sending you the link to the advice column that advised the child to quit blaming the actions of his family for his own distress, and to learn to change the things that he could change and to take chart of his own life and own actions? This thread reminds me of that.

 

If all you wanted from this thread was to tell you if the apology seemed sincere, then I already told you that. Yes, it sounds like a sincere apology to me. But the words of the apology didn't suit you, and my disagreeing with your already conceived belief that the apology was insincere didn't suit you.

[Dooda]

"Kids don't respond well to reasoning..."

This has to be one of the most ignorant statements I've ever read.

And if your son refers to you as "ma'am" then there's something wrong there...

 

Picking up a hockey stick to defend myself from my crazed and brutal brother out to beat the **** out of me? Hardly abusive.

Shoving my Dad because he's coming right next to me to intimidate and to try to hit me. Hardly abusive.

You say it in a very peculiar way to make it seem like I'm a crazed psycho-lunatic picking up hockey sticks and shoving people in the streets. If you're going to use examples, make sure you use them in their CONTEXT and be careful to not blatantly generalize.

 

"Yes, being an abused child leads you to become abusive yourself." Wrong... where did you get this little 'fact' from???

 

"Remember when you got so angry at your mother for sending you the link to the advice column that advised the child to quit blaming the actions of his family for his own distress, and to learn to change the things that he could change and to take chart of his own life and own actions? :

Once again, you are raising previous posts that have nothing to do with the issue at hand to simply try and harass me.

Yes, I do find it extremely insulting and aggravating that the same person who has caused me the distress I am going through and the same person who has abused me for so many years is the person telling me to get help. Passive-aggressiveness at its best.

 

"If all you wanted from this thread was to tell you if the apology seemed sincere, then I already told you that. Yes, it sounds like a sincere apology to me. But the words of the apology didn't suit you, and my disagreeing with your already conceived belief that the apology was insincere didn't suit you."

Then give your opinion and move on, don't shove it down peoples' throats.

Once again, I will quote myself from an earlier post : "It's not the wording."

It is not the wording, it's that after that 'apology', she continues to treat me in the same manner.

If I smack you in the face, then tell you "I'm sorry", then I follow that up by smacking you in the face, that basically annuls the apology...

Edited July 6, 2011 by Dooda

[goldmoon]

Dooda:

 

First of all, I wish to give you my deepest sympathy and compassion.

That's why you are here - to receive comfort and love, something that you cannot get from home.

I will also try to give you some advice - as much as I can as someone with a similar case. (In fact my case was much milder than yours, yet it is severe enough to deal with.)

 

In my view in your case even a sincere apology would not be enough.

Your parents need to change *on a grand scale* - not only towards you but in general.

 

Based on your posts -and I apologize if I overlooked something- the best advice I can give you is to seek professional help: counselling/therapy at the place where you live/study. At universities you can also request counselling they provide for students.

 

It is true that some parents don't know what they are doing and they think their toxic behaviour is "normal" because that's exactly what they used to get from their elders, therefore your parents may not even feel that they have a reason to apologize to you.

 

The main point in your case is not your past but your future.

I do understand why you expect an apology from them because that would signify a positive change on their behalf and such change would project the image of a better future with your family. I understand that because that's why I also asked my family to apologize, but quite recently I also realized that an apology by itself means *nothing*. It will NOT change the past anyway and it does not mean much regarding the future either.

 

Even if your parents would give you a more sincere-looking apology, the problem is that in most cases such improvement is temporary, sometimes they really mean it, but sometimes it is just their means of luring you into manipulation, either consciously or subconsciously. In the latter case their continuing influence on you would go on causing harm to your life, especially in your attempts to establish your own family and friendships.

 

So even if your parents would apologize to you, that by itself would not eliminate the danger that they will eventually fall back to their old bad habits. I should also mention that some (actually quite many) people will *never* change, simply because they think they are perfect. They don't want to recognize the damage they have caused or will cause to the others because they think they have the right to hurt the others.

"Hurt people hurt people" as the saying goes.

 

So, while there is some hope and your parents would show genuine and consistent willingness to improve him/herself and break their behavioural pattern - they can also learn that through therapy! - you may want to try to convince them that they themselves or you guys would together receive counselling/therapy too.

 

If your parents love you they will go into therapy - either individually and/or for a family therapy - for your sake. If not, all you can do is to walk away from them. While you have to physically live with them, try to mentally/emotionally detach yourself from them as much as possible. And try to be financially independent and move to your own place as soon as you can, separate yourself and your life from them, in every way.

Otherwise they will keep luring you back into their world. Since you are an adult they cannot use physical abuse, they may keep using emotional/mental abuse on you, may manipulate you until they ruin your life, until they can see your life in the same ruins as theirs are.

 

What needs to be done in the first place - and you have already achieved it - that you recognized that your parents' behaviour is and has been abnormal. Many people pay forward the same abnormal treatment to their own kids because they don't realize this.

Even those who don't have kids may become aggressive, bitter and angry towards other people in general, because their parents treated them in such way, so that's what they see as a normal way of conduct in general.

 

But either way, currently the very best for you is to seek a therapist's advice to your and your family's specific case, to start the healing process and to take care of your emotional well being.

 

I advise you this on my own experience. I am also in therapy for the same/similar reasons as you are. And it has helped me a lot. I hope and wish the very best for you

 

Eva

 

PS: It is also a great sign that despite the way you have been treated you come across as a nice and compassionate person

Edited July 7, 2011 by goldmoon

[goldmoon]

Here I would like to quote a part from a book I recently bought:

Susan Forward: "Toxic Parents; Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life"

I haven't received it yet but I KNOW in advance it will help me a lot.

 

I found this part on the net and I quote it here to help by some advice on a confrontation with this kind of parents. It is far from evident to know how to do it the right way.

 

It also mentions that just getting an apology from such parents is not enough.

 

---

 

Confronting Your Toxic Parent: What to Expect

 

Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

 

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

 

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

 

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

 

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

 

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

 

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

 

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

 

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

 

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

 

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

 

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

 

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

 

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

 

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too.

Edited July 7, 2011 by goldmoon

[Vesna]

Dooda, this is how I dealt with my situation. I cut my mother off. After 40 years of abuse from her on so many levels, I ended up in psychiatric care wondering why such a happy and productive person as myself would want to suicide. Because I lived to please my mother and receive as much love and praise from her as my siblings have. I was slowly killing myself in the process of wondering what makes me so repulsive in my mother's eyes (and heart, obviously).

 

Do whatever it takes to get away from these monsters and stay away! You got the 'non-apology' you wanted and they will treat you like **** for as long as you associate with them. You are the narcissistic supply that keeps them alive so you can imagine what cutting that supply off will do to them, maybe not in body but in spirit.

 

Good luck and whatever you do, do not go back there.