Just married, stress already

[em-b's bloke]

Hi all.

I've posted on here a few times and me and my SO finally got hitched and had a lovely day/honeymoon. Alas we've had a few difficulties clicking since.

 

A few days ago (Wednesday) I woke up at 4am with a bit of insomnia, so I got up, went downstairs for a while and went on the computer. I looked at a folder containing pics of my beautiful wife for about 5 minutes. My wife then came downstairs and asked if I was ok and what I'd been doing. I explained that I was looking at a folder of her but she didn't believe me,insinuating that I'd been online looking at porn, which I hadn't as I hadn't even been online. I don't do porn, I used to in my previous marriage but have since got past that and only wish to have sex of any kind with my wife. We argued and she turned her back on me even though I'd done nothing wrong.

 

Anyway, I got up for work a couple of hours later and she wasn't talking to me. Later in the morning after I texted her a few times she finally responded. She said she'd been on Facebook and asked me to confirm the name of someone I went on a completely platonic date with the day after my wife and I met online over a year ago. This name had appeared on my wall as a friend suggestion the day before my insomnia and I clicked the link out of curiosity as I couldn't understand why after having no friends in common she appeared? Anyway, I looked but didn't message her or try to add her as a friend. My wife barely spoke to me for three days after this and when I got in that night she went ballistic. The upshot is that after 3 days of silence apart from the odd text she finally starts talking again and basically told me that I'm on my last chance!

 

I have never cheated on her, I have no life at all outside of my relationship with her and couldn't be any less interested in anyone else, she is the love of my life and is my world. She says she feels the same, but this was before the insomnia incident.

 

Admittedly I don't always take her feelings into account, usually when I'm being confronted by her I go into defence mode and give out a-b comparisons, which she doesn't like. She shuts me down and I am miserable. I feel like she overreacts a lot and I just don't get what I've done wrong sometimes. Is she being overly harsh or am I wrong? I haven't added any embellishments to this.

[TigerCub]

what's a platonic date? I've never heard of that - unless its a lunch "date" with a friend - which I still wouldn't call a date.

 

so what's a platonic date?

 

Also, you met your now wife a little over a year ago, and now you're married- sounds like you rushed into that real quick.

Let me guess...she pushed for it?

 

Furthermore, from what I read in your post - your wife sounds very insecure, and immature.

 

She doesn't trust you, she's not secure in herself and she'll punish you like you did something bad (ie, cheating, looking at other girls, looking at porn - whatever is a "crime" in her book) even if you didn't do anything.

 

I foresee a lot of resentment buildup in your future.

 

Just a tip - if she gets all pissy with you for no reason, don't go chasing after her and texting her and blah blah trying to get on her good side, because insecure people like her work for just that reaction, you give her validation with that, and so .... do you think she would ever stop acting that way? I don't think so.

[ShiningEyes]

I am sorry you are going through this. You know what? I am a little like your wife it seems and and am well aware of how my behavior affects my partner. I feel guilty and terrible about it afterwards, cry, apologize profusely, and basically just "hate" myself for a couple days. In turn, he tries to make me feel better, says "it's ok" and tries his hardest to reassure me that he's not doing anything behind my back, etc. We'll be fine for a few weeks and then it happens again... I become suspicious of something that in my mind "doesn't add up" but that in the end is totally insignificant and in fact I've over reacted. I have been reading up on this and what best describes my behaviors is "paranoia" and "jealousy" ... Also, addiction and co-dependency because in many ways I am addicted to both HIM and the drama.

 

Does any of this resonate for you???

[em-b's bloke]

Thank you for your replies.

 

Platonic date. I had started talking to my wife online the day before the date with this other woman and so I decided to go along on the date out of politeness as it had been arranged a while but that it would go nowhere. Not even a kiss goodnight, I went for 2 drinks only and left,my choice.

 

I don't suppose things will ever change, not for the better anyway. I'm sure she loves me but I do feel a bit "owned" and she often treats me like one of the kids. She sees nothing wrong in her behaviour at all and often I feel like I have no pride left and emasculated. As for sex, lol! Absolutely only when she wants it, I could be absolutely begging for it but she wouldn't be interested in satisfying me in any way unless she wanted sex herself. She regards that as sexual favours and says it is a no no. I'm also not allowed to masturbate, relationship would be over if she found out I was doing that. That's not a problem though as I only want sex with her anyway.

 

Thing is I will live with it. I love her very dearly and as far as I'm concerned she's the woman of my dreams, in so many ways she makes me happy and challenges me. She just scares me when she gets angry with me as I often fear she will end the relationship, which she says is absurd.

[oldguy]

How long & how well did you know your bride before marrying her?

 

"Your on your LAST CHANCE"! already!?! Dude, that is a serious statement, you two need to start communicating.

[Lisa_H]

What a struggle you are going through. You love her and yet she is giving threats and ultimatums.

 

You need help and fast - before the resentment gets to be too much for both of you.

 

COMMUNICATION and RESPECT are lacking big time. She really needs to talk to someone on how to deal with the insecurities she has and you need help to learn the best way to help her overcome them.

 

WOW! I am just in shock that someone would actually say "you can't masturbate - or it's over" There are some deep seeded issues here - did you know this "rule" before you married her?

 

I wish you the best - I know your relationship can get better - I am just scared what will happen if you try to go it alone.

[westrock]

The upshot is that after 3 days of silence apart from the odd text she finally starts talking again and basically told me that I'm on my last chance!

 

She just scares me when she gets angry with me as I often fear she will end the relationship' date=' which she says is absurd.[/b']

 

The bolded parts show how she's contradicting herself. She says you're on your last chance but then when you express your fears she says it's absurd she will end the relationship.

 

Seems like she enjoys the drama of pushing you to your limits to test you. This is no way to live in a relationship. Unless you establish some boundaries, the situation will only get progressively worse as she increasingly pushes your limits more and more until you can no longer tolerate it.

 

She sounds like someone who thinks she's doing nothing wrong and all the problems in the relationship are your fault.

 

You need to find out where her insecurity is coming from. What do you know about her past relationships and upbringing that's led her to acting like this?

[Stupid Girl]

I don't want to say anything negative, but:

 

she didn't believe me' date='insinuating that I'd been online looking at porn, which I hadn't as I hadn't even been online. [/quote']

 

My wife barely spoke to me for three days after this and when I got in that night she went ballistic.

 

I have no life at all outside of my relationship with her

 

I feel like she overreacts a lot and I just don't get what I've done wrong sometimes.

 

[RedRussian8080]

DUDE! She made you a kid and a little girl and she is a woman of your dreams? Did you dream of becoming a woman? She took all your power as a man, she controls EVERYTHING, you have no life outside the relationship, you are dead inside.

 

RUN! DIVORCE! GET YOUR BALLS BACK!

[TigerCub]

Thank you for your replies.

 

Platonic date. I had started talking to my wife online the day before the date with this other woman and so I decided to go along on the date out of politeness as it had been arranged a while but that it would go nowhere. Not even a kiss goodnight, I went for 2 drinks only and left,my choice.

 

If that's the case, why the hell would you even mention this to the girl that you just talked to for 1 day (your W at the time)???

That makes no sense.

 

I don't suppose things will ever change, not for the better anyway. I'm sure she loves me but I do feel a bit "owned" and she often treats me like one of the kids. She sees nothing wrong in her behaviour at all and often I feel like I have no pride left and emasculated. As for sex, lol! Absolutely only when she wants it, I could be absolutely begging for it but she wouldn't be interested in satisfying me in any way unless she wanted sex herself. She regards that as sexual favours and says it is a no no. I'm also not allowed to masturbate, relationship would be over if she found out I was doing that. That's not a problem though as I only want sex with her anyway.

 

Thing is I will live with it. I love her very dearly and as far as I'm concerned she's the woman of my dreams, in so many ways she makes me happy and challenges me. She just scares me when she gets angry with me as I often fear she will end the relationship, which she says is absurd.

 

How is this the woman of your dreams if you read the rest of the stuff in bold?

 

Op, that's so sad that you actually devalued yourself so much that THIS is what you aspire to be with.

 

This woman is insane and she's jealous and insecure and treats you like crap and you just sit there and take it like a bitch (sorry, don't mean to be rude, I just hope the harsh truth will snap you out of it)!

 

That's no real relationship, you shouldn't be living in fear of upsetting them, fearing that your SO will leave you at the drop of a hat, you should NEVER feel "owned" by anyone, you shouldn't let her control you, even telling you if you are "allowed" or not allowed to touch your own body!!!!

 

I know right now you love her too much to listen and run like hell away from this woman, but I think you will eventually reach a point of enough is enough and you'll mourn the years wasted on her, I just hope that by then your self esteem isn't all the way in the gutter (but its doubtful because it seems like its almost there now).

 

I feel really sad for you.

[Lexygirl]

If you really want this marriage to work long-term... you NEED marriage counselling ASAP ! Not only that... you both need individual counselling.. her for HER self-esteem and bullying issues and YOU for your self-esteem issues for allowing her to do this to you.

 

Also, communicate, communicate, communicate... the proper way... not yelling and shutting each other out... You must both grow up and sit down and have frank conversations with each other where one talks and the other one listens and REALLY hears the one talking and vise versa...

If you two can't do this, how do you expect to last ?

[musemaj11]

Why do you guys keep getting married especially those who had been married before? Wasnt the first time enough of a lesson?

[Woman In Blue]

Sorry, I'm with RedRussian. The OP sounds as though he's been castrated and his spine taken along with the jewels. Not attractive whatsoever.

[CarrieT]

Absolutely only when she wants it, I could be absolutely begging for it but she wouldn't be interested in satisfying me in any way unless she wanted sex herself. She regards that as sexual favours and says it is a no no. I'm also not allowed to masturbate, relationship would be over if she found out I was doing that. That's not a problem though as I only want sex with her anyway.

 

This is not a marriage - this is sexual slavery and you have been duped into servitude.

 

You are going to be one VERY frustrated man and you either need counseling IMMEDIATELY or get out of the marriage while you can (i.e., before you have babies).

 

You have essentially castrated yourself if you continue.

[em-b's bloke]

Hi everyone, thank you all for posting replies to my dilemmas.

 

I have just read through all of the responses and you were all correct. I left her on April 5th. Things were pretty much as they were at the start of this thread until September 2012 when things took a serious downturn. She resorted to throwing me out of the marital home, a total of six times between September and December. Usually over small stuff but I had no choice but to leave each time as thanks to prenup it was HER house. Control freak you see in any way possible.

 

The final time of eviction she actually set about me with violence; we had both been drinking and on Xmas eve 2012 she punched, bit and scratched my face and shoulders because I refused to go. I laid not one finger on her during the attack and ended up with bite marks on my face, bleeding and bruising. The reason for the attack? I refused to let her drive her car whilst drunk.

 

Bear in mind also, before the attack I caught her on her mobile talking to someone saying she was in fear as I had eventually raised my voice over the car driving issue. I listened for a short while before asking who she was talking to. She went on to tell the person "oh God he will go mad when he finds out who I am talking to!" I took the phone off her and it turned out to be her previous husband lol!

 

So, one moment in fear of me, the next I'm being physically abused.

 

After the attack I went to stay at her mothers, at 11am I hear voices downstairs and suspect correctly that loving spouse is in the house. I left immediately but not before asking her, as a lawyer, what she would have done had I done this to her? Her response, called the police.

 

I went back to her but my respect was gone. From the first time she threw me out in the September I began closing down. How can someone who supposedly loves you allow you to sleep in your car in winter months?

 

So, even after yet more nights on the sofa (she never threw me out again after Xmas) I got to April the 5th, I was going to work for the evening and she was like "oh babe, I wish you weren't out tonight. We could have been making love and I am gonna miss you so much." Little did she know I was meeting a landlord the following morning to look at a flat, which I now live in.

 

She assumed incorrectly that I left her for someone else, I mean, how could I possibly want to leave her otherwise? Big lol! Woman made my life a misery and that was my ONLY reason for leaving. I just couldn't take any more. People who have read my previous threads didn't know the half of it, I was a cleaner for her, cook, unpaid childminder......the list goes on. I bent over backwards to do anything I could for her.

 

She didn't love me though, too paranoid and insecure and I guess I was just obsessed as my simple mind couldn't cope with feeling insecure and upsetting her. Doormat.

 

Anyway, I saw her profile on a dating site last month. Nine pictures, six of which I had taken of her lovely, happy smiling face. The other three were taken post me and she looked a wreck, bags under the eyes, fake smile and no twinkle in the eyes like I was used to. Interesting too that there were a couple of refs in her profile about me which no-one would have got as they were personal between us, making me think they may have been there for my benefit? I don't know, maybe, maybe not.

 

No contact at all since I left save for three smarmy texts off her 6 weeks after my exit. During one of the smarmy texts she suggested we meet for a coffee so as to get some closure? I declined, figuring probably correctly that her aim was to just try and rub my face in it by giving me the skinny on guys dated since and how happy she was etc, after all, I had left her and no-one had ever done that before! I assume she wanted to gain control over the ending and gain the upper hand. I may be daft but wasn't going to allow that.

 

Me? Still love her to bits and find it strange that it was over just like that and that she didn't fight for us bearing in mind how she felt the night I left. I am drinking too much but am holding it together. It is getting easier and I am strong.

[crederer]

So.......what did we learn?

[em-b's bloke]

Well, first off, she has major problems. You know what, even her own mother offered to pay for her to go to private counselling as she recognised she had problems. She even told me I should leave her numerous times and was a real mate to me.

 

Second, take notice of gut instinct when red flags are flying in abundance! There were so bloody many lol! Recently started to get to know a girl who seemed lovely from the outset, however, she was saying "you will be living with me by Xmas" and "I have seen an engagement ring I like, it's not expensive...." even after only four weeks. That wasn't the worst of it, she showed far too many signs of needing to control and insecurity, the alarms started ringing and off I went. Thanks but no thanks.

 

It was amusing to me reading back over my previous threads and what I was writing, I should have disappeared before I even got as far as posting on here but I wanted it to work so badly. I would have given my right arm for her and probably still would but when all is said and done it can't be at the expense of my own peace of mind, self esteem and sanity. No one is worth that.

[Downtown]

Well' date=' first off, she has major problems....even her own mother offered to pay for her to go to private counselling.[/quote']Bloke, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., strong fear of abandonment, irrational jealousy, very controlling behavior, rapid flips between adoring you and devaluing you, verbal and physical abuse, and inability to trust you -- are some of the classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has. Of course, you cannot determine whether your exGF's BPD traits are so severe that they meet 100% of the diagnostic guidelines for having full-blown BPD. Only professionals can make a diagnosis.

 

You nonetheless are capable of spotting the red flags for BPD. There is nothing subtle about strong occurrences of traits such as always being "The Victim," verbal abuse, and a strong abandonment fear. I therefore suggest you read about BPD traits to see if most sound very familiar.

 

I caution that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means everyone has the traits to some degree. At issue, then, is not whether your Ex has BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she has most BPD traits at a strong level. Not having met her, I cannot know the answer to that question. I nonetheless believe you are capable of spotting any red flags that exist if you take time to learn the warning signs. This is important because, until you are able to spot these warning signs, you are at risk of leaving your W only to run into the arms of another woman just like her.

She resorted to throwing me out of the marital home, a total of six times...over small stuff.

If your STBXW has strong BPD traits, the frequent breakups are to be expected. A poll of the abused partners at BPDfamily.com found that 60% of the BPDer relationships had gone through at least 3 complete breakup/reconciliation cycles before the couples finally ended the relationship. And a third of the couples went through at least 6 B/R cycles before separating. Indeed, a fourth of them had 10 or more such cycles of breakup and reconciliation before permanently ending their R.

How can someone who supposedly loves you allow you to sleep in your car in winter months?

If she exhibits strong traits of narcissism, she never did love you. Full-blown narcissists are incapable of loving others. This is not true of BPDers, however. They are capable of loving very intensely and passionately -- but (absent years of therapy) BPDers are only capable of loving in the immature way that a young child is able to love.

 

Hence, if your STBXW has strong BPD traits, what you likely were seeing -- when she made you sleep in a cold car -- was black-white thinking. This all-or-nothing thinking would be evident in her frequent use of expressions such as "you NEVER..." and "you ALWAYS...." It also would be evident in the way a BPDer categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad." This is why BPDers are capable of flipping -- in only ten seconds -- between loving you and hating you. This distorted way of thinking is done by "splitting," a process I describe at the link below.

Still love her to bits and find it strange that it was over just like that.

BPDers exhibit such a child like spontaneity and warmth of expression that they are very VERY easy to fall in love with. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD, if their biographers are correct. Leaving such a relationship -- where you are frequently flipping between rapturous passionate highs and painful withdrawals -- can be as difficult as trying to recover from a heroine addiction. Such toxic relationships tend to be very addictive.

 

I therefore suggest that you learn to spot the warning signs for BPD traits so you know what red flags to look for. An easy place to start reading is my description of warning signs at Crazy I think but I love her anyway. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Take care, Bloke.

[em-b's bloke]

Downtown, I took time to read the thread you quoted in your post and OMG! There were statements from guys talking about walking on eggshells (I have used that line in my yet to be filed divorce petition!), constant drama and fear of abandonment.

 

I remember one time in the beginning shortly after we got engaged. I had very recently moved into her house with her and her children and was feeling a little uncomfortable, as I believe is natural. Anyway, I asked how she would feel if just supposing I couldn't get used to living with brand new family (it did happen very quickly) what would be her thoughts on me getting my own place? She responds with "well, there would be no problem with that at all babe if you felt more comfortable but you need to understand that we couldn't possibly be engaged to be married anymore and we definitely would never be able to live together again!" Manipulation. Another one, I asked if ever we broke up would she grieve at the loss of us? No she said. She would immediately be back out in the field looking for one night stands as she had before when relationships ended. Again, putting fear into me to keep me in line. Manipulation. This kind of thing was commonplace.

 

I also remember another time, we'd been together for 6 months. Her younger brother had previously had a substance abuse problem and came off it. However, at this moment in time it was discovered that he was back on it. My fiance (as she was then) informed their mother. Younger brother's wife sent my fiance a text saying that he wasn't impressed that fiance had told their mother. Ok, so my response was (naturally I thought) "well I am telling you now, if he comes around here shouting the odds at you I will be asking him to leave." Her response? With a look of rage in her eyes, "what in hell gives YOU the right to tell any member of MY family to go???? How dare you! Who do YOU think you are???" I sat bewildered at that one, I thought I was just sticking up for her. She then went upstairs, unloaded all of my belongings onto the floor, told me to get out. I refused. She went into a full blown state of shock, refusing to even acknowledge me let alone talk, and the following day spent the day in bed with her back to me like she had the flu or something. The day after she was fine. :-)

[Downtown]

Bloke, I'm glad to hear that you found the BPD information helpful. Due to their great fear of abandonment, BPDers typically are very controlling of every aspect of your private life. And they will try to be manipulating. My experience, however, is that they are not good at manipulating.

 

To be skillful at manipulation, one must be good at both careful planning and flawless execution. BPDers typically are far too reactive -- to whatever feelings they are experiencing at the moment -- to remain with a plan and actually execute it.

 

This is not to say, however, that BPDers are never manipulating. Rather, I am only saying that, if they are, the behavior they are exhibiting at that particular time is not characteristic of the BPD traits themselves. Superb manipulation is characteristic of NPD (Narcissistic PD) or sociopathy (now called Antisocial PD). If a person has strong traits of BPD, she likely also has strong traits of another PD as well (e.g., NPD or ASPD).

[em-b's bloke]

So what do I do? She has shut me down, I wouldn't even attempt to get hold of her now because I would know how she would react and it's been six months. Sickening thing is that without all the behavioural **** she really is a wonderful person, just that with it she is a total nightmare. She turned me into someone I hated, lacking self esteem and respect when I was grovelling for forgiveness for crimes such as a lone toothpick on the coffee table etc etc. If only she wasn't like this, I would never have left her, not for a gold cow.

[Downtown]

So what do I do?

You are already doing it. You are divorcing her. If she has strong BPD traits, she is unable to control her emotions because her emotional development is frozen at the level of a four year old. She therefore is stuck having to rely on the ego defenses available to a young child: denial, black-white thinking, projection, blame-shifting, and magical thinking. Being married to a BPDer means you really have a parent/child relationship, not a husband/wife relationship.

 

If this is the case with your STBXW, there is not a thing you can do to change her. Indeed, even a team of psychologists cannot change her. She must do that for herself. There are many excellent treatment programs designed to help BPDers acquire those missing skills they never learned in childhood. But, sadly, it is rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength to be willing to stay in those programs long enough to make a difference.

Sickening thing is that without all the behavioural **** she really is a wonderful person, just that with it she is a total nightmare.

Yes, it is sickening. In many respects, BPDers are wonderful people. Their problem is not being bad but, rather, emotionally unstable. My BPDer exW, for example, is immediately liked by nearly everyone who meets her. Due to her childlike warmth and purity of expression, she is able to make total strangers feel like they've known her for a long while. As I noted, Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both of whom had magnetic personalities -- are said to have had BPD. I therefore offer several suggestions:

 

As an initial matter, if you suspect your STBXW has strong BPD traits, I recommend that you NOT tell her. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.

 

Second, I suggest you read Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. This book should be helpful because, if your STBXW is a BPDer, the divorce likely will be very nasty.

 

Third, I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. This issue is such an enormous problem that that website is growing by 20 new members every day. The result is that it offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The one that likely will be most helpful to you is the "Leaving" board.

 

Fourth, while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorite is article #9 at http://www.bpdfamily.com/tools/articles9.htm.

 

Fifth, I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you have been dealing with. As I've explained in many other threads, your best chance of getting a candid opinion regarding a possible BPD diagnosis is to NOT have the BPDer along. Therapists are loath to tell high functioning BPDers the name of the disorder.

 

Finally, please don't forget those of us on this LS forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping many other members and lurkers.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Downtown

[Got it]

Bloke - I would really look into therapy for yourself to work on some codependency issues. Codependents tend to be attracted to/are attractive to NPDs, etc.

 

Her issues are her issues. They don't matter outside of her always having it unless she gets extensive help and will continue repeating these behaviors (I really feel for her kids).

 

Take care of yourself, focus on yourself, and heal you. You need to figure out why you still feel she is a good partner for you and how/why this was attractive.

[em-b's bloke]

I have to say that reading back over the older replies in this thread and certainly the new ones, you guys rock. One of those things I guess, when you feel something is/was good you just don't want to quit. And as Got It said, co-dependency is in my estimation something that a BPD seems to instil in you, part of the lure to keep you from saying **** this. Her kids, well the two older ones always said they would rather live with me than her, they felt she was unapproachable and didn't listen to them and they were right. She even sat there crying to her mother when her mother one night asked her "do you love him?" When spouse replied yes her mother said "if you're not careful girl you will lose him." She cried even more and said it would kill her if I left. I knew that to be a drama-rama statement but nevertheless, I think she did care. I feel sad. I am moving on and it's slow but I will get there in the end. I wasn't with her long enough to be in the same shoes as Downtown, I can only thank the Lord above for that.

[Downtown]

As Got It said' date=' co-dependency is in my estimation something that a BPD seems to instil in you, part of the lure to keep you from saying **** this.[/quote']No, GotIt said that BPDers tend to "attract" people who already have strong codependency traits. Those of us men who are excessive caregivers -- like me -- will keep walking right on past all the emotionally available women (BORING!) until we find one who desperately needs us. Those women, like Marilyn Monroe, are masters at projecting vulnerability, which is "catnip" to us caregivers.

 

The reason we do this -- and the reason we will tolerate the abuse -- is that our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are). The best explanation of how we got to be this way in childhood is Shari Schreiber's article at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. It is because you seem to be a caregiver, Bloke, that I urged you to protect yourself by learning how to spot the warning signs for a person having strong BPD symptoms.