fat and muscle loss

[lordWilhelm]

I'm 25/5' 10". Over the last couple of months I went from 177 lb to 161 lb. I also went from 22.1% body fat to 18.9%. So overall, I lost about 5.7 lb of fat but also 8.4 lb of lean muscle.

 

I do feel and look better, but is this a healthy rate of fat & muscle loss? I have been doing weight training all this time to help maintain muscle but perhaps I have to push myself harder with weights. Also, I have only been doing a moderate caloric reduction -- aiming for 1,500 per day and not feeling like I'm starving myself.

Edited July 5, 2011 by lordWilhelm

[skydiveaddict]

You are not eating enough. Not nearly enough. Your body is exhausting fat and carbohydrate and is then using muscle (protein) for fuel as well. Not a healthy situation. You never want to have muscle loss. Heavy lifting requires a lot of calories. Before you up the weights, up your diet.

Edited July 5, 2011 by skydiveaddict

[tman666]

I'm 25/5' 10". Over the last couple of months I went from 177 lb to 161 lb. I also went from 22.1% body fat to 18.9%. So overall, I lost about 5.7 lb of fat but also 8.4 lb of lean muscle.

 

I do feel and look better, but is this a healthy rate of fat & muscle loss? I have been doing weight training all this time to help maintain muscle but perhaps I have to push myself harder with weights. Also, I have only been doing a moderate caloric reduction -- aiming for 1,500 per day and not feeling like I'm starving myself.

 

How did you determine your exact rate of fat/muscle loss? Unless you went to some university human performance lab and got hydrostatic testing done, you need to reconsider your method of measurement.

 

Losing more muscle than fat is unacceptable, from a performance and physique point of view.

 

A couple of questions for you: how heavy have you been lifting (compared to your estimated maxes)? Have you noticed an increase or decrease in maximal strength (or no change)? Post what your weekly workouts look like, in detail.

 

Secondly, how much protein have you been getting? Skydiveaddict is 100 percent right in saying that you're eating waaaaaaayyyyy too little. As you have observed, what you are doing now isn't doing a whole lot of favors to your body composition.

 

More info is needed from you...

[lordWilhelm]

Thanks for the input. So I don't trust my body fat % very much; they're just from a bathroom scale using electrical resistance which is one of the least accurate ways of measuring body fat. However, the measurements have been fairly consistent between themselves and I took several days of measurements (not just a one-time). I took the total weight and computed the body fat at the beginning and now to compute fat loss and assumed the remainder of the loss is muscle. Assuming I lost pure fat, that's about a 1200 calorie/day deficit and I didn't think I was eating that little which is why I did the body fat %. Supposing I did lose 7 lb of fat (4500 calories/lb) and 9 lb of muscle (2500 calories/lb), that's an 850 calorie deficit per day which is more than I was shooting for but more reasonable than the previous computation. But I do eat a lot of protein and have even been taking protein powder, especially after workouts.

 

To give a bit of backstory. I had a knee injury playing soccer two months ago, so I was on crutches for three weeks -- I had a metatarsal fracture the year before and I gained a lot of weight (10 lb) during that time that I couldn't take off so I decided to be very careful about what I eat which is why I restricted myself to 1500 calories/day. I went from 177 to 172 lb in that first month, which was a nice surprise, but I was out of shape and decided to start exercising lightly. I started doing P90 over the last month but didn't want to push myself too hard; I do about 2 cardio sessions/week and 2 weight sessions/ week. I also walk to/from school (about an hour total).

 

The cardio session (Sweat 1-2) includes the following (and approximate total times indicated):

Stretch (4 mins)

Yoga (4 mins)

knee raises, knees out (4 mins)

Running in place, jumping jacks, lunges (6 minutes)

Stretch (2 mins)

Cardio kicking (6 minutes)

Cardio punching (6 minutes)

100 crunches (4 mins)

Total time (38 minutes)

 

I think the cardio list above is pretty accurate. I sometimes have been doing 30-minute cardio kickboxing instead of this cardio session on the Your Shape Fitness Evolved Kinnect game because doing the same routine sometimes gets boring, but I do find the P90 cardio to more balanced overall.

 

The weight session (Sculpt 1-2) includes the following. I started by using 5 lb dumbbels and only last week switched to 10 lb weights.

Stretch (5 minutes)

15 Military presses

15 Corkscrew presses

15 wide push-ups

15 regular push-ups

15 pant lifts

Stretch (2 minutes)

15 shoulder flies

15 tricep kickbacks

15 lawn-mowers for each side

15 bicep curls

15 open curls

7-7-7 low curls, high curls, complete curls

7-7-7 wide, close-in, regular pushups

15 chair dips

24 squats

Stretch (3 minutes)

Total Time (28 minutes)

 

I might be missing a few in the weight list above and the order is definitely not correct.

 

 

Here's a typical day for me

 

7:30 wake up

8 am exercise, shower

9 am meal-replacement shake (e.g., shakeology with 0% milk ~ 200 calories / 20 g protein)

10 am walk to school

11 am 1 apple & cup of tea (english breakfast)

noon lunch (soup & sandwich or salad)

2 pm 1 banana & cup of tea (english breakfast)

6 pm dinner (usually chicken breast & vegetables ~ 800 calories)

7 pm walk back from school

9 pm evening snack (greek yogurt or milk & protein powder ~ 200 calories / 15 g protein)

12 pm go to bed

 

I sometimes exercise in the evening instead of the morning, around 8 pm and have a recovery snack (yogurt or protein powder shake).

 

I would also say that I was not very concerned about losing muscle until now. I will say that I do look a little bit more muscular and have more strength than before. Certainly my belly is less bloated and I can actually feel my ab muscles.

Edited July 5, 2011 by lordWilhelm

[tman666]

Sorry to hear about your knee injury.

 

You're basically doing everything you can do to lose muscle. Light weights+high intensity cardio+very little food = loss of muscle (and fat, in your case).

 

In order to retain as much muscle as possible during a caloric deficit, you need to be lifting heavy weights. What you're doing right now as far as weights goes would be considered more along the lines of "cardio" unless you're very old or frail as a kitten (which I doubt is the case). I'm not suggesting that you switch your goals completely around and become a powerlifter, but without the proper stimulus (heavy weight), your body has no incentive to keep the muscle. Since muscle is metabolically expensive, and you're in a caloric deficit, your body is getting rid of all that apparently unneeded muscle. While it's a long read, I suggest you read "Maximum Muscle" by Matt Perryman. He explains the science behind why heavy weight training is essential for muscle growth. It's a free e-book, so just google it.

 

While I don't know the extent of your knee injury or what kind of activities you've been cleared for or barred from, I would (conditionally) say that you need to start incorporating heavy squats, deadlifts, presses (bench, overhead), chinups, and rows into your workout. It doesn't have to be fancy. A simple 5x5 program is all you need, especially considering your goal of fat loss and muscle retention/gain. I personally feel that the weighted workout you're doing is essentially a waste of time from a muscle building/retention standpoint. Again, if your injuries prevent you from doing heavy lifting, please don't go and get yourself hurt all the while saying

"but I thought guy on the internet told me it was ok?!"

 

As far as diet goes, you're not eating enough protein or calories in general. Your meal replacement shake is most likely not giving you much benefit due to the rest of your diet being so far from adequate. You need to be getting at least 1 gram of protein per lb of bodyweight per day (about 175 grams per day for you). You would probably do well to shoot for more like 200 grams. I would also shoot for getting more carbs in immediately post workout. Protein will only take you so far. To retain and build muscle, insulin spikes (from carbs) are very beneficial. Try mixing your post workout protein mix with chocolate milk and protein powder. That should help you get in plenty of insulin spiking carbs/protein in the post workout window.

 

In the end, there's only so much diet manipulation you can do. Without the proper training stimulus, your body simply has no reason to put on or keep muscle. Getting your training in order should be your first step.

[lordWilhelm]

Thanks for the tips. I started looking over Matt Peryman's book and there's some good things in there. I do agree with him about the fitness industry in its unfortunate tendency to over-sell everything. I am a PhD student so I appreciate his approach, although I find his writing style slightly abrasive.

 

Don't worry, I'm not going to take up any crazy exercises and blame an internet guy. I've got a couple of doctor's appointments the next few days so I will discuss with them specifically what I can do and can't. I also want to start some physiotherapy for my knee. It would be good to talk to them about some specific weight-based exercises and see what would be acceptable.

 

I fence and play soccer, so to my mind the ideal physique is on the lean side and didn't think to take bodybuilding very seriously; I was also pretty happy with the weight loss I was experiencing as previously I've hardly had any success losing weight. Honestly, something like 15% bf at 155 lb is what I'd find is ideal. In the past I'd shoot for 2000 calories and play soccer maybe two hours a week and fence an hour a week, and generally don't lose weight doing this. I didn't think cutting 500 calories and replacing soccer (aerobic exercise) and fencing (anaerobic exercise) with what I considered to be light exercise to have such dramatic effects. Also, I have a strength training book for fencers and it recommends weight training of the kind I'm doing -- dumbbell based, using an exercise ball, push-ups, etc. also recommended in the advanced section were deadlifts, squats, and power cleans with a barbell but I don't like to go to the gym (I exercise at home or obviously through sports) and I thought those were way too hardcore for me. The idea of using my own body-weight via push-ups, dips sounds pretty reasonable to me in general.

 

You mentioned 175-200 grams of protein for my body weight. I have seen those numbers quoted before on bodybuilder forums so I discounted them, and saw that in general the daily recommended was 50-70 grams. Now, it looks like I'm losing muscle and quickly so maybe I shouldn't have discounted those suggestions so quickly.

 

But 200 grams is a lot! If I wanted to achieve that from natural food, I think Greek yogurt is one of the highest protein sources and I'd have to eat 14 a day, that's 2000 calories. Anything with less protein content and my calorie intake would skyrocket. In the past, on diets over 2000 calories I end up putting on fat (that's how I got to 22% body fat), although I was also drinking generous amounts of soda that I have almost completely cut out now and replaced with tea & sparkling water.

 

OK, so a few questions. What reasonable diet change would I have to do to reach 200 grams of protein intake? It seems to me like I'd have to to have a gigantic protein shake every two hours.

 

What kind of calorie intake should I shoot for?

 

What's a 5x5? What's a reasonable "higher-weight" exercise plan to prevent muscle loss?

 

Can I use dumbbells for squats, deadlifts, etc. instead of 300 lb barbels? I have never done power lifting and haven't seen myself as being the type to take this up -- I've only started doing dumbbells over the past year and that's my only experience with weights which I found much better than going to the gym and using the machines as free weights engage a lot of other stabilizing muscles.

Edited July 5, 2011 by lordWilhelm

[tman666]

Haha, I agree that Matt Perryman's writing is a little rough around the edges, but I still think that it's a 'must read' for people interested in the basics of strength training.

 

As far as caloric intake and protein intake, keep in mind that there are 4 calories per gram of protein and carbs, while fat has 9 calories per gram. If you take in 175 grams of protein per day, that would be 700 calories. Out of a 2,000 calorie diet, you'd be left with 1,300 calories to be made up of fat and carbs. There is no magic number of how many carbs/fats you should take it. Honestly, it'll fluctuate day to day depending on what you eat, etc. The main goal is to get your protein in, and after that, it's pretty much just making sure you don't go overboard on calories. I would also recommend that you concentrate carbohydrate intake to either early mornings or immediately pre- or post-workout. This will ensure that the ensuing insulin spikes are put to good use preserving muscle and minimizing fat gain. Fat does not cause an insulin response in the body, so you can pretty much each them at any time.

 

As far as good sources of protein, chicken breasts and lean pork cuts are some of my favorites. Greek Yogurt is awesome. Beef is great too, but it tends to be somewhat fattier, so you have to watch that. I would also recommend that you up your protein intake somewhat slowly over the course of a month or so in order to avoid gastric upset. Also, make sure you're drinking plenty of water.

 

As far as routines, go, 5x5 simply denotes 5 sets of 5 reps. The idea is that you pick a weight that is heavy enough where by the 5th rep of each set, you wouldn't be able to get more than 1-2 more reps out of it. It's a simple, yet effective, tried and true form of strength and hypertrophy training.

 

You can definitely use dumbbells to train. However, keep in mind that heavy training is relative to your strength levels. If you can deadlift 405 lbs, then training with 135lbs isn't going to do a whole lot for you, for example. You have to push your own limits.

[lordWilhelm]

So I can do upper body weights no problem, but lower body stuff including squats, deadlifts are off the list. I'm starting physiotherapy on Monday for my right quad, so I'll get some lower body training as well.

 

What exercises do you recommend for upper body?

 

I was really shocked by how little weight I can do for 5x5's. For things like military press, bicep curls, bench press, I find that I can't really do more than 15 lb dumbbells. Probably my 1 RP is 25 lb dumbbells and I can do some 20 lbs but won't complete a 5x5. For something like a lateral raise, even 15lb is too much and can only finish a 5x5 with 10 lb.

 

No wonder being on crutches for three weeks was such a nightmare.

Edited July 10, 2011 by lordWilhelm

[Chocolat]

I was really shocked by how little weight I can do for 5x5's. For things like military press, bicep curls, bench press, I find that I can't really do more than 15 lb dumbbells. Probably my 1 RP is 25 lb dumbbells and I can do some 20 lbs but won't complete a 5x5. For something like a lateral raise, even 15lb is too much and can only finish a 5x5 with 10 lb.

 

No wonder being on crutches for three weeks was such a nightmare.

 

 

Ok, if you can do lateral raises with 10lbs a side, then I think you can probably do more than 15lbs a side for a military press. You said in your first post that you were doing 10lbs a side for 15 reps on military presses.

 

That said... if I was going to two upper body exercises around which to organize my workouts, I would do:

 

Pullups

Pushups

 

Change up your grip on the pullups and play with different hand stances (widths) on the pushups.

 

You can add to this with:

 

Standing military presses

Arnold presses

Bent over rows

Bench presses

Close Grip bench press

Flys

 

Throw in whatever isolation work you like (I am not a big fan of isolation work, but YMMV), but do the big stuff first.

[lordWilhelm]

Ok, if you can do lateral raises with 10lbs a side, then I think you can probably do more than 15lbs a side for a military press. You said in your first post that you were doing 10lbs a side for 15 reps on military presses.

 

Thanks. You're right, I think with military presses I could do 20 lb 5x5's. Should I find the maximum weight I can do for each individual exercise or use the same dumbbell weights throughout?

[Chocolat]

Thanks. You're right, I think with military presses I could do 20 lb 5x5's. Should I find the maximum weight I can do for each individual exercise or use the same dumbbell weights throughout?

 

Ohy, you'll want to use different weights for each exercise! You'll find that different movements have different difficulty levels, based not only on the muscles recruited (larger, smaller, etc.) but also on what development you already have. You'll short-change your growth if you stick to the same DBs for everything.

 

Remember, while you don't want to go to failure on every exercise (failure meaning you could not make one more rep no matter what), you do want to push yourself. If you only do what's comfortable, you won't grow.

[lordWilhelm]

So when I do weights, especially military presses and bench presses, I find that my shoulders tend to make small popping sounds. The physiotherapist said that's probably because my muscles are not uniformly strong and that I should try to ensure I exercise all muscle groups. That's great, but I don't know how I should ensure I keep all my upper body muscles engaged...

 

Any suggestions?

[Chocolat]

So when I do weights, especially military presses and bench presses, I find that my shoulders tend to make small popping sounds. The physiotherapist said that's probably because my muscles are not uniformly strong and that I should try to ensure I exercise all muscle groups. That's great, but I don't know how I should ensure I keep all my upper body muscles engaged...

 

Any suggestions?

 

Do you have pain when these popping sounds occur? Frankly, I've never heard of this and I would be cautious that you are not on the verge of an injury. No one's muscles are uniformly strong -- you're never going to be able to curl what you can deadlift, for instance. Different muscles are designed to take different loads. If your physiotherapist doesn't understand this, I'd say you need a new one!

 

Of course, if what your physiotherapist is saying is that you should work all muscle groups in your program, then I agree completely. This doesn't mean you have to work every muscle in every workout! You can split things up across several days. Or you can do full-body workouts each day. Whatever floats your boat.

 

p.s. Are you warming up before you start exercising? Shoulders can be especially tetchy so it pays to get them well warmed up. Be sure to do some warm-up exercises explicitly for your rotator cuff.

[tman666]

With shoulders, it's especially important to balance out pushing/pressing with pulling movements. Bench press/overhead press are great and all, but without working on an equal or greater amount of pulling, you can destabilize the shoulder joint.

 

I like the phrase "train chest like a powerlifter, but train back like a bodybuilder". What this means is that you should focus on going heavy with low reps (and low volume) for something like bench press or overhead press, while you should couple the amount of pressing you do with a relatively high volume of pulling work, such as rows, pull ups, lat pull downs, etc.

 

For example, pressing could be accomplished in a heavy 5x5, followed by whatever pulling you're doing (preferably in the same plane of motion) for a total of 50 reps per exercise. My "bench" days generally look something like this: (Warm up), 5 @ 70%1RM, 5@ 85%1RM, 5+ (hopefully 7-8) @ 90%1RM, followed by 50 reps of t-bar row (5 sets of ten or so), 60 reps of (3 sets of 20 each arm) of 1 arm DB row, finished up with 50-60 reps with a seated cable row (4 sets of 12-15, etc.)

 

Another thing you should look at is your pressing form. Your shoulders will thank you if you use a "narrower" grip on the bar. This doesn't mean close grip, but your hand should be placed only slightly wider or as wide as your shoulders. This might limit the amount of weight you can do, but again, your shoulders will thank you. For overhead press, I've found that using a false or "suicide" grip is beneficial for getting the correct angles. Also, try and use your lats as a "shelf" and push with your triceps.

 

If the popping doesn't go away, you might want to stick to just pulling movements for a while.

[lordWilhelm]

Thanks for the replies!

 

Frankly, I've never heard of this and I would be cautious that you are not on the verge of an injury. No one's muscles are uniformly strong -- you're never going to be able to curl what you can deadlift, for instance. Different muscles are designed to take different loads.

She didn't say that I should do the same weights on all muscles. She was very brief and said pretty much what tman just said, that I should never just do pressing and also include pulling work, but tman explained it in more detail so I think I understand better.

 

I do have to say that I haven't done much pulling work previously, so that's probably why I have this muscle imbalance.

 

you should couple the amount of pressing you do with a relatively high volume of pulling work, such as rows, pull ups, lat pull downs, etc.

Except for pull-ups, I don't know what the other exercises are, and if you have other suggestions to add to this list that might be helpful.

[tman666]

I generally like to do pulling exercises that are in the same plane of motion of the pressing movement that I'm doing that day. For example, with overhead presses (vertical plane of motion), the pulling work I'd do would be mostly weighted pullups, with some variation of lat pull down at the end (since the weight stack is adjustable, cable lat pull downs or hammer strength machine pull downs are best done after a bodyweight exercise such as pull ups due to you not being able to adjust your bodyweight within the course of a workout ).

 

For bench press day (horizontal plane of motion, relative to the ground), the pulling movements I would do would be bent over barbell rows, t-bar bent over rows, 1 arm dumbbell rows, seated cable rows, etc. Believe me when I say there are puh-lenty of ways to annihilate your back!

 

The internet can be a good resource for how to perform each exercise. This link is a pretty good resource for someone who needs a visual reference on which exercise is which----> http://www.exrx.net/Exercise.html

 

Remember to go as heavy as possible even when doing high reps.