Is the end in sight??

[UmbrellaBoy]

Very atypical dilemma. Please just accept my premises and give me advice from "within" the current situation:

 

I'm a gay Christian male who about a year ago met online, became friends with, and fell in love with another gay Christian male.

 

At the time, I believed in celibacy for homosexuals, and he did not (and had been sexually active in the past) but said that he wrestled with that interpretation and might someday come around to embracing celibacy.

 

He knew I was in love with him, but started dating another friend of his (non-celibately, it's implied) in October. I, however, kept trying with him, both to win his affection and to "convert" him to celibacy. I think I played my role very well, and at some point this winter I feel like I got the "upper hand" in terms of our interpersonal power.

 

Well, recently, it came down to a big final battle involving, basically, the fact that he initiated cuddling with me on a recent trip out-of-state to visit him...but was also going to be moving in with his boyfriend in the fall.

 

I told him that I knew now that he was just stringing me along, and went no-contact for two-weeks. He came crawling back, saying how much it hurt to lose me and how important I was to him. Said some, really, very sweet things, clearly has a lot of affection for me.

 

But still nothing had changed. No indication he was planning to change his own status quo. So I threatened to leave FOREVER. Even if he someday came around, I said, I couldn't talk to him again. It had to be like I was dead.

 

Well, he panicked, and did end up committing right then and there to celibacy. Such a conversion has been brewing under the surface in him for a long time, he was just hesitant to "take the plunge" and I, in this last battle of wills, nudged him off the edge of the cliff. Trust me when I say: I don't doubt the sincerity of his resolve. I don't expect him to back out of that or to be tempted away from it or to lie about it.

 

Another mutual friend of ours (another celibate gay Christian guy) who has been acting as his confidante through all this then told me that "my" guy told this other friend of ours that he has been seriously entertaining the thought of a celibate relationship with me, but that he's afraid of breaking his current boyfriend's heart (that relationship has always been, in some sense, more about pity).

 

This weekend, he told his boyfriend about his new spiritual commitment. They've decided to "try" to stay together celibately for now rather than breaking it off totally right away.

 

But...I have my doubts about how long that will last. Do you think their relationship (the other guy has no such moral convictions, and is clearly agreeing with it just to desperately cling because he is also very much in love) will last this way much longer?

 

Or is this more probably just a tactic to begin emotional distancing in preparation for a final break-up (after which, presumably, he'd finally come to me)???

 

I know this is not a typical situation, but...do you think it's likely that "switching over" to celibacy with his current boyfriend will last very long? Is that likely to succeed??

 

I mean, I have to think the fact that he renounced sex, basically, "for me," to avoid losing me in his life...would indicate that I am, essentially, more important to him than this boyfriend.

 

I didn't expect it to be an instant break-up (I've never seen a break-up among my friends that wasn't at least somewhat drawn-out, gradual, or "messy.") I sort of even expected him (and even myself advised it) to have a transitional period of "trying" things celibately with his current guy.

 

But does this seem like the beginning of the end? Or might they instead continue in the "new" detante (ie, celibacy) indefinitely, leaving me languishing in the limbo of having obtained the religious victory but not the romantic one??

Edited July 5, 2011 by UmbrellaBoy

[Kismetly]

Very atypical dilemma. Please just accept my premises and give me advice from "within" the current situation:

 

I'm a gay Christian male who about a year ago met online, became friends with, and fell in love with another gay Christian male.

 

At the time, I believed in celibacy for homosexuals, and he did not (and had been sexually active in the past) but said that he wrestled with that interpretation and might someday come around to embracing celibacy.

 

He knew I was in love with him, but started dating another friend of his (non-celibately, it's implied) in October. I, however, kept trying with him, both to win his affection and to "convert" him to celibacy. I think I played my role very well, and at some point this winter I feel like I got the "upper hand" in terms of our interpersonal power.

 

Well, recently, it came down to a big final battle involving, basically, the fact that he initiated cuddling with me on a recent trip out-of-state to visit him...but was also going to be moving in with his boyfriend in the fall.

 

I told him that I knew now that he was just stringing me along, and went no-contact for two-weeks. He came crawling back, saying how much it hurt to lose me and how important I was to him. Said some, really, very sweet things, clearly has a lot of affection for me.

 

But still nothing had changed. No indication he was planning to change his own status quo. So I threatened to leave FOREVER. Even if he someday came around, I said, I couldn't talk to him again. It had to be like I was dead.

 

Well, he panicked, and did end up committing right then and there to celibacy. Such a conversion has been brewing under the surface in him for a long time, he was just hesitant to "take the plunge" and I, in this last battle of wills, nudged him off the edge of the cliff. Trust me when I say: I don't doubt the sincerity of his resolve. I don't expect him to back out of that or to be tempted away from it or to lie about it.

 

Another mutual friend of ours (another celibate gay Christian guy) who has been acting as his confidante through all this then told me that "my" guy told this other friend of ours that he has been seriously entertaining the thought of a celibate relationship with me, but that he's afraid of breaking his current boyfriend's heart (that relationship has always been, in some sense, more about pity).

 

This weekend, he told his boyfriend about his new spiritual commitment. They've decided to "try" to stay together celibately for now rather than breaking it off totally right away.

 

But...I have my doubts about how long that will last. Do you think their relationship (the other guy has no such moral convictions, and is clearly agreeing with it just to desperately cling because he is also very much in love) will last this way much longer?

 

Or is this more probably just a tactic to begin emotional distancing in preparation for a final break-up (after which, presumably, he'd finally come to me)???

 

I know this is not a typical situation, but...do you think it's likely that "switching over" to celibacy with his current boyfriend will last very long? Is that likely to succeed??

 

I mean, I have to think the fact that he renounced sex, basically, "for me," to avoid losing me in his life...would indicate that I am, essentially, more important to him than this boyfriend.

 

I didn't expect it to be an instant break-up (I've never seen a break-up among my friends that wasn't at least somewhat drawn-out, gradual, or "messy.") I sort of even expected him (and even myself advised it) to have a transitional period of "trying" things celibately with his current guy.

 

But does this seem like the beginning of the end? Or might they instead continue in the "new" detante (ie, celibacy) indefinitely, leaving me languishing in the limbo of having obtained the religious victory but not the romantic one??

 

 

Hi Umbrella Boy

 

So let me get this straight ... you've been have been having an EA with a man in an intimate, committed, relationship with someone else. Your motives are both spiritual and romantic. YOu have no sexual intentions towards him.

 

Is that right?

 

You would appear to have no moral or ethical problems with the equivalent of "emotional adultery", but you do have religious/moral/ethical problems with 2 men who love each other expressing that love physically?

 

Still on track?

 

You are wanting opinions on if your EA partner's willingness to commit to your lifestyle, with his current partner, might mean that he'll leave his current partner (whom you admit is very much in love with your EA partner) to be with you. The inference being that the only reason he would ultimately chose his current partner is because of the sex?

 

Well ... this is almost the exact opposite question that is often posed here ...(often, in the case of straight men, they chose to leave a spouse/lover because of a lack of sex, to go to a new relationship with better sex - so this is a complete 180) and I have to wonder are gay men so, so different to straight men, in the way they perceive sex in relationships?

 

So how does a celebate gay relationship work? What would be in that for your EA partner?

[Emme]

Bravo on the celibacy... I'm in awe.

 

As far as your relationship. Who's to say what your "partner" has been doing isn't what he will do when he's with you. He can easily talk celibacy and continue to have a in the closet sexual relationship with someone else. No matter how you spin it if they are not open and freely and with you nothing is for real. It's all a fantasy. Remember you can't be a fly on the wall and you can't believe what people tell you. If he wants to be with you he will be.

[fascinated]

Sounds like he's in a relationship and is having an emotional affair with you. I don't see any victories being won at all.

[fooled once]

Very atypical dilemma. Please just accept my premises and give me advice from "within" the current situation:

 

I'm a gay Christian male who about a year ago met online, became friends with, and fell in love with another gay Christian male.

 

At the time, I believed in celibacy for homosexuals, and he did not (and had been sexually active in the past) but said that he wrestled with that interpretation and might someday come around to embracing celibacy.

 

He knew I was in love with him, but started dating another friend of his (non-celibately, it's implied) in October. I, however, kept trying with him, both to win his affection and to "convert" him to celibacy. I think I played my role very well, and at some point this winter I feel like I got the "upper hand" in terms of our interpersonal power.

 

Well, recently, it came down to a big final battle involving, basically, the fact that he initiated cuddling with me on a recent trip out-of-state to visit him...but was also going to be moving in with his boyfriend in the fall.

 

I told him that I knew now that he was just stringing me along, and went no-contact for two-weeks. He came crawling back, saying how much it hurt to lose me and how important I was to him. Said some, really, very sweet things, clearly has a lot of affection for me.

 

But still nothing had changed. No indication he was planning to change his own status quo. So I threatened to leave FOREVER. Even if he someday came around, I said, I couldn't talk to him again. It had to be like I was dead.

 

Well, he panicked, and did end up committing right then and there to celibacy. Such a conversion has been brewing under the surface in him for a long time, he was just hesitant to "take the plunge" and I, in this last battle of wills, nudged him off the edge of the cliff. Trust me when I say: I don't doubt the sincerity of his resolve. I don't expect him to back out of that or to be tempted away from it or to lie about it.

 

Another mutual friend of ours (another celibate gay Christian guy) who has been acting as his confidante through all this then told me that "my" guy told this other friend of ours that he has been seriously entertaining the thought of a celibate relationship with me, but that he's afraid of breaking his current boyfriend's heart (that relationship has always been, in some sense, more about pity).

 

This weekend, he told his boyfriend about his new spiritual commitment. They've decided to "try" to stay together celibately for now rather than breaking it off totally right away.

 

But...I have my doubts about how long that will last. Do you think their relationship (the other guy has no such moral convictions, and is clearly agreeing with it just to desperately cling because he is also very much in love) will last this way much longer?

 

Or is this more probably just a tactic to begin emotional distancing in preparation for a final break-up (after which, presumably, he'd finally come to me)???

 

I know this is not a typical situation, but...do you think it's likely that "switching over" to celibacy with his current boyfriend will last very long? Is that likely to succeed??

 

I mean, I have to think the fact that he renounced sex, basically, "for me," to avoid losing me in his life...would indicate that I am, essentially, more important to him than this boyfriend.

 

I didn't expect it to be an instant break-up (I've never seen a break-up among my friends that wasn't at least somewhat drawn-out, gradual, or "messy.") I sort of even expected him (and even myself advised it) to have a transitional period of "trying" things celibately with his current guy.

 

But does this seem like the beginning of the end? Or might they instead continue in the "new" detante (ie, celibacy) indefinitely, leaving me languishing in the limbo of having obtained the religious victory but not the romantic one??

 

to me, it seems like he is saying what you want to hear. He also has you right where he wants you; you believing in him while he continues to have a sexual relationship with his boyfriend. Why would you want someone who you had to 'bully' into telling you he is in a celibate relationship with someone else? If he truly wanted to be with "just" you, he would be. You imply the current boyfriend he stays with out of pity; yet he stays. why do you stay around waiting for him to break up? Where is your self respect for yourself? And considering how easily he 'cheated' on his current boyfriend what makes you think he really even wants a celibate relationship with you and do you really think he will stay celibate until you decide it is okay to have sex? When is that time?

[UmbrellaBoy]

Thanks all. Many good points, some better than others.

 

I will clarify some things:

 

So let me get this straight ... you've been have been having an EA with a man in an intimate, committed, relationship with someone else. Your motives are both spiritual and romantic. You have no sexual intentions towards him.

 

Is that right?

 

I suppose that's correct. If you want to characterize it as an EA, I guess you can.

 

I mean, it's mainly been one-side; me courting him. The only explicit reciprocation, besides the time dedicated to talking to me about deep topics and his own life (but then, I'm a confidante like that for many friends who aren't even gay guys)...was the cuddling that one time on the trip.

 

You would appear to have no moral or ethical problems with the equivalent of "emotional adultery",

 

In itself, correct. I think that marriage demands sexual exclusivity. But I think that the idea of some sort of "emotional exclusivity" is silly and unworkably vague. And the idea that two people who AREN'T even married have some sort of right to expect that is absurd. As I see it, if he's willing to go along with it, a person is fair game until there's a ring on his finger.

 

but you do have religious/moral/ethical problems with 2 men who love each other expressing that love physically?

 

Right. Which is another reason I don't feel too bad about the EA thing. I do have SOME qualms about the EA thing based not on accepting the idea of "emotional adultery" in itself (as I said above, I don't accept that premise)...but based simply on expectations and honesty. I may not believe someone's "official" partner has any sort of natural right to expect "emotional exclusivity"...but if that's the understanding they have, it could still be problematic as a form of deception.

 

However, I'm not sure how much his current guy DOES expect emotional exclusivity. His boyfriend knows about me, at least somewhat. I mean, for crying out loud, he keeps on his fridge one love note from his boyfriend and one love note from me right next to each other, out in the open for both of us to see. And his boyfriend also knows that I'm the one who got him to come around to celibacy, so his boyfriend knows what sort of intimacy and power I have.

 

But, even if there was deception involved, I wouldn't feel too bad because I believe the relationship they had was immoral and I'm willing to let the ends justify the means a little to undermine that.

 

You are wanting opinions on if your EA partner's willingness to commit to your lifestyle, with his current partner, might mean that he'll leave his current partner (whom you admit is very much in love with your EA partner) to be with you. The inference being that the only reason he would ultimately chose his current partner is because of the sex?

 

No. The inference is that a relationship where two people aren't on "the same page" about sex and where celibacy is an uneasy compromise (specifically, something one partner goes along with reluctantly under ultimatum) rather than a shared ideal...is bound to be tense and rocky.

 

So how does a celebate gay relationship work? What would be in that for your EA partner?

 

Companionship, I suppose, and the fact that he's become emotionally dependent on me.

 

You gave your guy an ultimatum and he panicked and committed to a lifestyle choice.

 

Then he basically does the same with his boyfriend and the boyfriend acts in the same manner.

 

Why would your guy committing to celibacy for you be a demonstration that he loves you, yet his guy committing to celibacy for him is just a desperate attempt to hang on? I don't really see how you're connecting the dots there.

 

Well, except my guy really does believe in it now. That is to say, I nudged him into "taking the plunge" into committing to the idea of celibacy in theory and not just in practice, something that's been brewing under the surface for him for a long time based on his own spiritual convictions, which decision was apparently inevitable, but which he was trying to drag his feet about and stall about for as long as possible.

 

Whereas his boyfriend's "commitment" about it is purely practical, not theoretical. His boyfriend is NOT religious and doesn't "believe in" celibacy, he's just willing to go along with it in practice in order to hold on. He's willing to "go along" with it, but they ultimately disagree in theory now.

 

Perhaps their increased spirituality will strengthen the bond between them. Perhaps his guy's willingness to covert to this choice will demonstrate to him that he loves him unconditionally and it will stengthen the bond between them?

 

True. Good points.

 

In any case, all I see that your guy has committed to is celibacy, not you. He took that choice home and worked it into his current relationship. Banking on or even speculating the "what ifs" in a relationship with a person committed to someone else is dangerous territory.

 

Also a good point.

 

to me, it seems like he is saying what you want to hear. He also has you right where he wants you; you believing in him while he continues to have a sexual relationship with his boyfriend.

 

I doubt it. If that happened, he'd just tell me, trust me. If he was just going to lie to appease me, he would have done so all along. I mean, our situation is such that he could have never told me about the boyfriend in the first place and I would never have known he had one, but he's honest about stuff like that.

 

Trust me, he's been wrestling with this religious question himself a long time, I've seen his angsting over it and been his confidante in his struggle with it (in fact, that's how we met), it isn't something he'd lie about, he takes the question too seriously to make a mockery of it.

 

Why would you want someone who you had to 'bully' into telling you he is in a celibate relationship with someone else? If he truly wanted to be with "just" you, he would be. You imply the current boyfriend he stays with out of pity; yet he stays. why do you stay around waiting for him to break up?

 

I think life is more messy than that. Expecting a relationship to just end, bam, is not realistic. He started that relationship before he really had feelings for me, and now those feelings have apparently developed, and it is unrealistic to expect instant decision, as he's still tangled in that. I'm not against giving him time to untangle himself.

[fooled once]

Deception, lies, means justifying the end, disrespect, manipulation, betrayal...

 

sorry, but did you start this thread saying you are a Christian?

 

How do those characteristics fall in line with being a Christian?

[princessmermaid]

I think the libido will find its way out in time. Sorry. Threatening to abandon someone does not change their inherent wants. It just makes it more painful to try to be with the ultimatum-giver.

[Tenacity]

I am not understanding the abstinence thing, but I'll let that go.

 

Bottom line is the same as the more 'typical' A's here. This man whom you love is with someone else. He is CHOOSING to be with someone else. The argument of your being intimate enough with him to convince him to accept abstinence (if in fact he does), isn't the point. So you convinced him to accept a particular moral belief. He didn't apply that to YOU... he instead chose to fit that into his own relationship. (If he did).

 

The point is that he is where he is, and no amount of explanations or rationalization as to why it should, or might, be otherwise, appears to be changing that.

 

I feel your pain. I do know what it's like. But it looks like he has made his choice.

[elleorbianca]

I think this man will have sex with his partner again. Celebacy is too hard if you are doing it for someone else and not yourself.