Wavering. Quit now from fear of being used, or trust in this "dating" arrangement?

[faux]

I have been dating a girl with a child. She is 21, and the child will be 2 at the end of this month. I became intimately involved with her for the first time last week. The other, main thread about my experiences with this woman is located here: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?postid=216800 (Provides quite a large amount of background information)

 

I think I messed up big time this morning at Denny's (It's just about 2am now). Last night I went out to a bar with a friend of mine. I had two glasses of Jack and Coke, played pool, and then polished off a six pack of Bacardi Silver when I got back to his house. Someone I know then phoned me later asking for me to meet her at Denny's (local diner) for tea.

 

I ended up at Denny's, and then received a phone call from the girl I am dating. I did get a chance to finally speak to her about my concerns, so far as I remember. Things seemed to work out okay. I was a bit miffed that when I asked where we stood, so far as dating was concerned, she replied, "Well. Let's both say it at the same time." Apparently, she was either afraid to tell me where she stood, or was attempting to get me to define where I felt we stood, then work around that.

 

I informed her, "No. That makes no sense. Last I understood, we were dating." She then asked me to define "dating", which I did, again (I had to define it the first time as well). She then agreed, "Yes. Then we are dating." (again) I wasn't entirely satisfied with how her answer came about, but I have to be glad for what that I have I suppose. I was also slightly offended at her initial suggestion of our present situation, but I will dive into that a bit later. I had more important things on my mind.

 

She had asked me what others said about her when I spoke of her. I brought this up, and said that I would tell her what others said. I was brutally honest in my descriptions, and I fear she did not like this in the least. I explained that everyone believed she was my girlfriend, and when I would say, "No. She is not my girlfriend.", they would reply , "You don't have to be embarrassed about her. She's not that bad looking." It also slipped out that my younger sister called her a slut, and that someone else had not many nice things to say about her appearance.

 

This woman has self-esteem issues, as do I, and although she asked for an honest report, I wonder if I was mistaken in giving it to her. All she could say was, "I need to go now. I don't feel so good, and I need time alone." I apologized, and she explained that it was not me she was angry at; it was these people that do not know her, who are judging her. She appreciates my honesty, but is angry and upset over what people have said about her. She again stated that she asked for this information and I gave it to her, so I should not feel guilty. I still feel guilty, however.

 

I do not believe in lies, even "white lies". If someone asks me something I will tell that person precisely what it is he or she wants to know. I feel guilty as I knew I should not have taken the phone call when my cellular phone rang. I knew that I had been drinking, and that I was in an even more relaxed mood than normal. I knew that I would volunteer information much more readily, and not guard myself as much as I normally do. I knew all of this, yet I took that call, and she became upset.

 

It all ended, finally, with the fact that she's quite busy this week, and perhaps next week would be better to get together again. She did invite me to call this evening, but I'm not sure if I will. Perhaps I'm being too hard on myself. Perhaps I'm overlooking her rational explanations and blaming myself for everything when I should not. After all, I did only what she asked of me, and I would expect the same from her.

 

I am getting the idea that I no longer want to put any type of effort into this arrangement. She agrees with my points, and agrees with my idea of dating. However, she did admit that she could easily consider us "Friends with Benefits". This angered me, although I did not show this to her over the phone.

 

I deserve more respect than "Friends with benefits". If she had said, "Dating non-exclusively" as was my impression, I would have been fine. That term — "friends with beneifts" — just seemed far too insulting to me that she would even suggest defining me as such. She did agree to dating as I defined it, but the mere mention of the whole "benefits" thing upset me.

 

Maybe I'm reading too far into this. Maybe I'm not fully recovered from the alcohol I drank a few hours ago. Maybe I have trust issues from being burned many times by women in the past, and I'm too rigid in what I am going to stand for. I honestly have no clue, but this is something I need to sort out.

 

I've college to worry about getting into. I've a job I need to worry about finding. I have my health and my personal space to protect here. I am balancing all of these things quite well. It's just that, tonight, I got strong impressions that I do not even wish to waste my time with this woman any longer. I am insulted that I took so much time to get acquainted with her son and she seemed to simply think I was a "toy".

 

It remains to be seen. I need to discuss things further with her when I have all of my faculties intact. It may be a simple issue of pride, at how I took the "friends with benefits" suggestion as an insult. She has no idea of this and I need to inform her before I can really see what is going on here. I just feel I am worth more than that. I don't mind going on dates with other people. For goodness sake, I was at the diner with another girl having tea. I just will not stand for such insults. You see, "friends with benefits", to me, is highly suggestive of, "I am using you."

 

Yes, I wouldn't mind putting effort into this arrangement if I had a vague chance of solidifying an exclusive relationship over time. Yes, I am happy if she honestly agrees with dating non-exclusively; if she likes me, and wants to spend time with me, that is enough and all that I can ask for. Unfortunately, now I begin to question things because of my fear of being taken advantage of. What I do mind is being a convenient tool for sexual release.

 

I'm obviously confused. No doubt that you, too, are confused. This is LoveShack, however, and I am using it to just write what is on my mind. I will be very thankful if this all turns out to be simply part of a bad hangover.

[clia]

It sounds like when she called you, she was looking for you to say that she was your "girlfriend." You didn't say that, so she felt hurt. So, she threw back in your face that you could just be FWB. It was her way of saying "Aha! I can hurt you first!"

 

She introduced you to her son. She is obviously serious about you and is waiting for you to make the move or indicate to her that you want her to be your girlfriend.

 

Do you want that?

 

Honestly, non-exclusively dating/sleeping with someone and FWB are the same thing, although with FWB, there is usually no indication that something more might ensue. From the sounds of your relationship, it does not seem to me that she only wants FWB. She was likely hurt that you would only say you were "dating" and that she was not your "girlfriend." (Also, you shouldn't have said that your sister thinks she is a slut or that your friends think she is not that bad looking...but I think you know that.)

 

What do you want out of her? Do you want a relationship? If you do, stop ****ing around. Seriously. She has a kid....just stop. Either buck up or get out...she obviously wants a serious relationship with you. Yes, this is a messed up way of showing it, but she is only 21. She doesn't know any better.

[spencer]

Originally posted by faux

She had asked me what others said about her when I spoke of her. I brought this up, and said that I would tell her what others said. I was brutally honest in my descriptions, and I fear she did not like this in the least. I explained that everyone believed she was my girlfriend, and when I would say, "No. She is not my girlfriend.", they would reply , "You don't have to be embarrassed about her. She's not that bad looking." It also slipped out that my younger sister called her a slut, and that someone else had not many nice things to say about her appearance.

 

this comes off bad and insulting.

 

Originally posted by faux

This woman has self-esteem issues, as do I, and although she asked for an honest report, I wonder if I was mistaken in giving it to her.

 

yes

 

Originally posted by faux

I apologized, and she explained that it was not me she was angry at; it was these people that do not know her, who are judging her. She appreciates my honesty, but is angry and upset over what people have said about her. She again stated that she asked for this information and I gave it to her, so I should not feel guilty. I still feel guilty, however.

 

yes it is you that she is mad at. you didn't defend her to the other people.

 

 

Originally posted by faux

I do not believe in lies, even "white lies". If someone asks me something I will tell that person precisely what it is he or she wants to know.

 

not good for relationships. you need to learn to finess the truth.

"she not my girlfriend" .....you could have added "yet"

 

"she's not that bad looking,"

did you follow this up with how its a 'play' on how incredible attractive she really is?

 

"my sister thinks she's a slut" this hurts, did you tell your sister this is not true...

did you tell this woman kids are funny and don't really know what slut is?

and she must misguidedly think all pretty girls are sluts.

 

add your opinion to these conversations, to bring the honesty up to a manageable level, if you must be honest at all.

really.. no one wants to hears this stuff about them. by not telling "white lies", you are saying i would rather be honest, and sound like a prick.

 

its ok to soften bad news and other issues that will only serve to injustly hurt someones feelings.

 

ask yourself why its justified to you to be 'brutally honest' knowing it is very hurtful to people.

you may want to re evaluate your position. you may end up a very lonely person.

[V8]

It's interesting, because from the pictures you have posted, she is very attractive and need not worry about comments from the peanut gallery about her looks or her alleged promiscuity.

 

I think it was passive aggressive to detail everything that was said about her. It gave you false power, and you may lose her because of it. You want to label call it brutal honesty, but it was neither constructive, well-motivated, nor necessary, and I think you know it. The only person who should feel shame about this situation is yourself, and maybe your sister.

[CurlyIam]

It is quite normal for her to feel insecure, she's 21, barely a grown up,with a 2 year-old son, alone. she has both of them to think about. And she is oscilating between letting you closer and just keeping it casual.

 

She needs a shoulder to cry on, a man to support her. Not financially or from a material point of vue. A man to stand up for her, that she can relate to, that can be there for her. Even if the two of you choose not to involve the baby in your relationship, she is and always will be a mother.

 

Think well and hard. You seem to be a sensitive, attentive, very good with words man. Try to be a intuitive too, don't think of your own needs exclusively. You'll need to do that a lot more often in the future...

 

Definetely call her tonight, she'll think you don't care or that you're mad at her. If you want to break it with her, do it gently.

 

Anyway, it's your call. But you have to choose, my friend. It ain't a "let's party all night long" or "let's go and talk all night" relationship. Responsability... maybe it's a stereotype, but as far as I know this word scares the s**t out of most guys. So... will you step up to the plate?

[SoleMate]

Clia and spencer both said it so well. Let me summarize their wise advice the way I understand it, and add a bit of my own:

 

* DON'T go repeating cruel rumors or slander under the guise of "honesty". You need to stick up for the woman you're dating, always.

 

* DON'T hold back when someone you love asks for reassurance.

 

* DO talk to her honestly about what you want, and what you will give her and her son, and how FWB is just not enough for you. Sounds like "just dating" is not enough from her.

 

* You just had sex for the first time; sounds like you both are reeling from it and struggling to define what it means. Give yourselves a chance. I really think you guys may have a future.

 

* DON'T blame yourself or her for what happened; just both of you learn from it.

 

* DON'T have important relationship conversations when you're hammered.

 

Please go apologize to this girl for what happened, and let her know how much she means to you.

[Fedup&givingup]

Oh, FAUX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

You insulted her! You shouldn't repeat things like that. Your last post and update indicated to me how into she was/is, with the child thing, etc. She is falling for you, and she's told you that.

 

You have really hurt her feelings, that I can tell. More than likely, you trivialized your relationship with her, and she far from sounds like a slut...otherwise, she would have made sexual advances at you long ago. She has taken that aspect nice and slow.

 

My advice is for you to contact her, and try to get together with her face to face, and you apologize emphatically, UP AND DOWN!

 

Oh, Faux....what to do!

 

Good luck, I'm still rooting for you. I hope you haven't done too much damage. Here's some food for thought...if she accepts your apology and feels you are sincere and continues on with you, there's your answer on how into she is.

[faux]

Firstly, I was drunk when posting the above, which was a mistake. I'll clarify along the way as much as I feel that I can at this point.

 

Sorry for another lengthy response, but I tried to address things said by everyone, especially since that post did not give enough information. Besides, I was drunk... Let me tell you, my once-a-month alcohol sprees are one time a month too many!

 

Originally posted by clia

It sounds like when she called you, she was looking for you to say that she was your "girlfriend." You didn't say that, so she felt hurt. So, she threw back in your face that you could just be FWB. It was her way of saying "Aha! I can hurt you first!"

 

Believe me, had I asked if she was my girlfriend, or hinted that I would like her to be, that would have been a huge mistake. Perhaps you are right, however.

 

She introduced you to her son. She is obviously serious about you and is waiting for you to make the move or indicate to her that you want her to be your girlfriend.

 

She introduced other guys to her son. Granted, she did enter relationships with them. She was actually engaged to one (no, it was not the father). I am not certain that I would take being introduced to her son as a sign that she wants to be my girlfriend.

 

Do you want that?

 

I have no problem committing to this woman. I get every indication that she does not want a relationship, however. Perhaps it was when she said to me, "I know that what I do not want right now, at all, is a relationship."

 

She's changed her behavior and attitude since she said that more than a month ago, however, so I'm really unsure if she might be reconsidering how serious she might get with me in the future.

 

Honestly, non-exclusively dating/sleeping with someone and FWB are the same thing, although with FWB, there is usually no indication that something more might ensue. From the sounds of your relationship, it does not seem to me that she only wants FWB. She was likely hurt that you would only say you were "dating" and that she was not your "girlfriend."

 

To me, it is hard now to tell if she wants something more. Sometimes she seems hesitant about dating. Dating, to me, is more than friends screwing around in quite a few ways. Dating is different from "f--ck buddies", in my and her opinion, as we have discussed the topic before.

 

(Also, you shouldn't have said that your sister thinks she is a slut or that your friends think she is not that bad looking...but I think you know that.)

 

She specificically requested to know about such information, by asking, "What bad things have people said about me?" Believe me, had I been sober I would have used much more discression during that part of the conversation, and would not have come right out saying such things as I did.

 

What do you want out of her? Do you want a relationship? If you do, stop ****ing around. Seriously. She has a kid....just stop. Either buck up or get out...she obviously wants a serious relationship with you. Yes, this is a messed up way of showing it, but she is only 21. She doesn't know any better.

 

No... She really, really does not seem to want a serious relationship with anyone from what she has told me. Do I want a relationship? Yes, I do, and it may not be what I would prefer, but the interaction between her and I is a relationship of sorts.

 

I'm afraid to ask her if she would consider a serious relationship with me.

 

 

In response to Solemate:

 

Clia and spencer both said it so well. Let me summarize their wise advice the way I understand it, and add a bit of my own:

 

* DON'T go repeating cruel rumors or slander under the guise of "honesty". You need to stick up for the woman you're dating, always.

 

Again, she specifically asked for what bad things people had said about her. She informed me she was upset to hear that, but she insisted that I told her what she asked, and she is not angry at ME. She IS upset, however, that my friends do not "approve" of her, which puzzles me if she does not seem to want to get serious?

 

* DON'T hold back when someone you love asks for reassurance.

 

This is something I left out in the initial post: I didn't hold back on this. I explained how I defended her to my friends. I ought to have used better judgement, but I believe when someone asks me to honestly give them information, I should give them that information.

 

* DO talk to her honestly about what you want, and what you will give her and her son, and how FWB is just not enough for you. Sounds like "just dating" is not enough from her.

 

This will happen tonight, when I'm able to fully comprehend what it is she is saying to me.

 

* You just had sex for the first time; sounds like you both are reeling from it and struggling to define what it means. Give yourselves a chance. I really think you guys may have a future.

 

I'm not sure about her, but I'm definitely wondering what's going on. If I make sure not to speak with her when I'm drunk or very, very tired there might be a way to rectify this situation. (I'm just as bad when I'm very sleepy.)

 

* DON'T blame yourself or her for what happened; just both of you learn from it.

 

* DON'T have important relationship conversations when you're hammered.

 

Please go apologize to this girl for what happened, and let her know how much she means to you.

 

I'm very critical of myself, but you know... You're right in that it's a mistake to be learned from. As for conversations while hammered: You said it. I have apologized to her, but she won't have time to really talk about anything until this evening.

 

In response to things said by CurlyIam:

 

Anyway, it's your call. But you have to choose, my friend. It ain't a "let's party all night long" or "let's go and talk all night" relationship. Responsability... maybe it's a stereotype, but as far as I know this word scares the s**t out of most guys. So... will you step up to the plate?

 

In this situation, I am actually getting the impression that she is the one who would get the sh**t scared out of her over responsibility. I'm fond enough of her, and feel that I relate well enough to her to make a genuine committment if that is what she might be interested in.

 

In response to v8:

 

I think it was passive aggressive to detail everything that was said about her. It gave you false power, and you may lose her because of it. You want to label call it brutal honesty, but it was neither constructive, well-motivated, nor necessary, and I think you know it. The only person who should feel shame about this situation is yourself, and maybe your sister.

 

I told her what she wanted to know. She has known me for over four years, and she is well aware that she can expect nothing but honesty from me. She knows that when she asks me a question, no matter how difficult it is, I will answer it truthfully. I didn't see a point in lying and saying, "My sister? Oh. She thinks the world of you."

 

In response to Spencer:

 

add your opinion to these conversations, to bring the honesty up to a manageable level, if you must be honest at all.

really.. no one wants to hears this stuff about them. by not telling "white lies", you are saying i would rather be honest, and sound like a prick.

 

its ok to soften bad news and other issues that will only serve to injustly hurt someones feelings.

 

ask yourself why its justified to you to be 'brutally honest' knowing it is very hurtful to people.

you may want to re evaluate your position. you may end up a very lonely person.

 

Again, she specifically requested this information. I apologize for repeating myself here. I left out a great deal of the conversation. My own opinions were mixed with my responses. She had asked what specific friends thought, and what my sister specifically thought of her. I answered, informed her that they had nothing at all nice to say, and said that I disagreed and explained how I stood up for her.

 

People perhaps ought not ask things that they really do not want to hear, is all that I can really say at this point. I spoke to her since then, and she seemed quite fine with that part of the conversation now.

 

In response to Fedup&givingup:

 

You insulted her! You shouldn't repeat things like that. Your last post and update indicated to me how into she was/is, with the child thing, etc. She is falling for you, and she's told you that.

 

I already write books in my posts, but believe me I left quite a bit out. I'm very confused as to her feelings, and how serious she considers things.

 

You have really hurt her feelings, that I can tell. More than likely, you trivialized your relationship with her, and she far from sounds like a slut...otherwise, she would have made sexual advances at you long ago. She has taken that aspect nice and slow.

 

The first time I saw her after several years, a little over a month ago, we did get romantic at the end of that night. Later on, she told me that had I attempted to take things further she'd not have objected that first night. Sure, we knew each other for years before this, but this was the first encounter. The second time we spent time alone with one another that is when we first had sex. I'm not sure if that is taking it all that slow or not. I suppose it depends on individual opinion. But no, she definitely is not a slut and my sister definitely got yelled at by me for a good long while.

 

As for trivializing the relationship... As I said before a few times I have absolutely no idea of what to think and I am going to have to speak with her about things tonight again.

 

I'm definitely going to apologize again to her and readdress properly issues that I attempted to bring up to her before. I think I need to tell her that I would be interested in working my way up to something serious with her, but at the same time I do not want to scare her away by saying this. She's given me the impression that this might upset her in past conversations.

 

Good luck, I'm still rooting for you. I hope you haven't done too much damage. Here's some food for thought...if she accepts your apology and feels you are sincere and continues on with you, there's your answer on how into she is.

 

I didn't think about that. I suppose she would have to think rather highly of me to forgive me.