The next question would be..

[wheelwright]

Here's a thought...I sorta get WW's comment.

 

If you ENTER into a relationship with no expectation of committment or fidelity...and it's a clear understanding on both sides, and both sides work to ensure that this expectation doesn't change over the course of the relationship...no one would be hurt.

 

But...you can't change that expectation in the middle of the relationship without setting your partner up for huge amounts of emotional devestation.

 

You can't unilaterally make that change (one way or another) in the middle of a relationship and not expect to hurt someone.

 

The problem with this is that it doesn't work that way.

 

The vast majority of people don't enter into a relationship with these expectations...and probably wouldn't pursue a relationship under these 'conditions' either, unless they completely agreed with that mindset beforehand.

 

And people change...and often expectations can change in a relationhip. They may enter a relationship not expecting monogamy...but then come to expect it (and end up hurting themselves and their partner as a result). Or they start a relationship expecting it to be monogamous...only to be betrayed later.

 

It's like communism...it's great on paper, but it totally doesn't normally work out well just given it's disregard of human nature.

 

I like the communism reference. It's a good parallel.

 

I'm sure human nature can take more than we've explored yet. Other cultures, including non-monogamous ones prove that.

 

I don't advocate anything, only am given pause by the stats. We could be a bit more light hearted about betrayal via infidelity.

 

I guess my 'what next' question is about whether it might be more practical to find ways to discuss and irradicate () the pain rather than the infidelity.

 

It's just a switch and it's not meant to be justification. I would really like to explore the pain beyond dogma. I really feel inside that it is not in essence about being lied to.

 

When I have been lied to about infidelity, my pain was more about being made a fool of and the insecurity I felt.

 

I think I am the kind of person who saw at a young age that someone acting for their own best interests in a way that ignores your own, does not make that person totally nasty. It might if their motives were money or power, just because that seems rather hollow to me.

 

I cannot really see the motive of desiring intimacy with someone for your own interests as hollow. Unless it really is during the experience. I am sure most of us have experienced a soulless f**k at some point. I am not talking about that.

 

But if I felt worried about my future or change or the outcome in terms of affections, then the infidelity would bring me pain in rather difficult to deal with ways.

 

I agree with Owl that a M begun with respect for fidelity makes difficult the fact that change may occur for a MP on this front. But it seems to be the case quite often.

[seren]

Yea I share the same sentiment.

 

I think the bottom line with regards to infidelity is the lies/deceit and feelings of betrayal that is at the crux. In our closest interpersonal relationships (marriage/romance being one of the closest) we come to believe that this person cares for us, they won't hurt us purposefully, we can let our hair down with them and while we may be fully aware that the rest of the world is harsh, we expect our families, closest friends and of course spouse/partner to be that exception and that solace from a harsh outside world and we trust them.

 

When that is shattered through affairs or some other indiscretion, then it is going to be painful. It's not solely infidelity, but all acts that involve a breach of trust, disrespect or betrayal, in any relationship, whether romantic or otherwise hurts. The more deliberate the act is or seems to be, the more painful.

 

Great post MissBee, I was thinking how to say it, then read you already had.

 

The big stink about infidelity is, IMO, that the relationship between the WS and BS was, at one point exclusive. Both making plans and promises usually rooted in love and usually with both promising and expecting exclusivity, honesty and the resulting shared understanding of what their relationship is, creating the 'rules' of that relationship. As Owl so succinctly put it to do an about turn and decide that there is no longer exclusivity without discussing it with the other is a breaking of that trust, and a shattering of the relationship. The big stink is usually that the one kept in the dayk hasn't had the opportunity for informed choice. Whether they want to continue to invest in a relationship with changed rules, I wonder how many WS would happily discuss the BS having an A without there being an almighty stink.

 

If both enter a relationship with no such expectations or promises, then they know what they are letting themselves into. I would expect someone who no longer loved to leave, I would expect someone who loved another to leave. For many BS the big stink comes when the WS has a souless f*** rather than the honesty of falling out of love or in love with another.

[wheelwright]

Wheelwright ( hope i have your user name right, if not, i apologize)

 

to be quite frank,I am not sure why you seem to be trying so hard to 'pigeonhole other people's feelings when their spouse has had a affair.

 

not sure if you have ever been in that situation yourself, but if you have, and you are speaking from experience, I can understand why you may have felt the way you did...there really is no right or wrong way to feel.

 

But for some of us, the pain, by and large, is not because we have had our ego bruised, etc. , it was because we had ( to use a trite expression that I can't put into any other words) "our hearts broken'....the person we chose to spend the rest our our lives with suddenly didn't seem to want that anymore, and the person we loved and trusted more than anyone else in the world, to the point that we would gladly give our life for them, and who we thought felt the same way, suddenly changed their mind.

 

That doesn't sound powerful enough to explain the pain ( at least for me, can't speak for anyone else)

 

I just don't understand why it is you seem to want to minimize other's pain or, in effect, make their pain a reslut of their own internal issues ( the affair hurt because it affected the self esteem, etc. of the betrayed spouse). While it is true that we create our ow responses, we need a 'stimulus' in order to create said responses, and in the case of infidelity, it's the "wayward spouses" actions that were said stimulus.

 

I have been in that situation, and it changed things for me. But I stayed with that person for a further 20 years. And a further 15 years after the second time. And for a further 12 years after the last disclosure.

 

I agree our hearts can get broken by this. I have been nursing a broken heart myslef for some time. I am not disputing broken hearts. I am trying to find a way where the behaviour of another does not cause this. We should all be too wise for that.

[wheelwright]

Great post MissBee, I was thinking how to say it, then read you already had.

 

The big stink about infidelity is, IMO, that the relationship between the WS and BS was, at one point exclusive. Both making plans and promises usually rooted in love and usually with both promising and expecting exclusivity, honesty and the resulting shared understanding of what their relationship is, creating the 'rules' of that relationship. As Owl so succinctly put it to do an about turn and decide that there is no longer exclusivity without discussing it with the other is a breaking of that trust, and a shattering of the relationship. The big stink is usually that the one kept in the dayk hasn't had the opportunity for informed choice. Whether they want to continue to invest in a relationship with changed rules, I wonder how many WS would happily discuss the BS having an A without there being an almighty stink.

 

If both enter a relationship with no such expectations or promises, then they know what they are letting themselves into. I would expect someone who no longer loved to leave, I would expect someone who loved another to leave. For many BS the big stink comes when the WS has a souless f*** rather than the honesty of falling out of love or in love with another.

 

I hear the heart in this post.

[wheelwright]

WW, given the stats, HALF THE PEOPLE in those same supposedly loveless marriages DO NOT CHEAT.

 

Why? Think about that.

 

Stats can be used to either justify or negate anything.

 

If we do NOT RISK, we can never fully trust, we can then never truly be in love or know true intimacy.

 

The level of pain is in direct proportion to the level of love and trust one invests in another.

 

Spark, you are right about stats. It's more the personal inventory for me, because I take life on what I meet and find.

 

I am not sure the level of pain is about love and trust. It is about the outcome of not having your needs relating to those things met.

 

It just puts eveything more in the responsibility of the hurt party this way. Which is empowering for them.

 

I think you dealt with your own pain by throwing this light on it. You are very down to earth about whether your M meets your needs or not, and the sh** that is on your partner's side is his to own.

[xxoo]

I guess my 'what next' question is about whether it might be more practical to find ways to discuss and irradicate () the pain rather than the infidelity.

 

It's just a switch and it's not meant to be justification. I would really like to explore the pain beyond dogma. I really feel inside that it is not in essence about being lied to.

 

How is it not about being lied to?

 

Open relationships, swinging, FWB, poly relationships--all sorts of people practice all sorts of non-monogamy without lies and betrayal.

 

The thing that separates infidelity is the betrayal--the lies.

 

Even in open relationships, where people practice non-monogamy, their can be infidelity if there is lying and deceit. And then, in those cases, the non-monogamous BS goes through the same pain as a BS in a presumably monogamous relationship.

 

You say that, when you experienced infidelity, you felt you'd been made a fool, and insecure. You'd been fooled: lied to. Broken trust can also quickly amount to feeling unsure and unsafe: insecure.

[MissBee]

How is it not about being lied to?

Open relationships, swinging, FWB, poly relationships--all sorts of people practice all sorts of non-monogamy without lies and betrayal.

 

The thing that separates infidelity is the betrayal--the lies.

 

Even in open relationships, where people practice non-monogamy, their can be infidelity if there is lying and deceit. And then, in those cases, the non-monogamous BS goes through the same pain as a BS in a presumably monogamous relationship.

 

You say that, when you experienced infidelity, you felt you'd been made a fool, and insecure. You'd been fooled: lied to. Broken trust can also quickly amount to feeling unsure and unsafe: insecure.

 

 

Yepp....

 

I don't think one should ever have to come to terms with lies and deceit from someone you love. Yes we ALL hurt each other but there is inadvertent hurt and ongoing lies and betrayal that you have to choose everyday for a period of time. No one should ever have to suck it up and just accept it....

 

The relationships you described are ones that take into account having feelings for others and provides an honest outlet for that, for those who find it fitting. That is a better option than entering into one agreement and then somehow accepting that perhaps this person is going to lie and betray you so you might as well accept that "in case".

[Spark1111]

Spark, you are right about stats. It's more the personal inventory for me, because I take life on what I meet and find.

 

I am not sure the level of pain is about love and trust. It is about the outcome of not having your needs relating to those things met.

 

It just puts eveything more in the responsibility of the hurt party this way. Which is empowering for them.

 

I think you dealt with your own pain by throwing this light on it. You are very down to earth about whether your M meets your needs or not, and the sh** that is on your partner's side is his to own.

 

I have said this many times: Marriage is whatever two people define it to be.

 

For some, it is a contract of who pays the bills, who drives the kids, do we have enough to cover the mortgage, the barbecue and birthday gifts? I will tolerate your family; you tolerate mine. We will go through the motions for the sake of the kids. We will have sex often enough to convince ourselves we are happy.

 

When infidelity happens within that kind of marriage, perhaps the two spouses overcome it quickly to retain the status quo. They sweep it under the rug. That's okay, but I doubt they reel in pain and are posting at LS.

 

For those of us who were passionately partnered, who experienced swinging from the chandeliers, who shared every secret, goal, future plan, together......

 

Infidelity was devastating, not expected, not anticipated, and devastating.

 

Now maybe you were devastated for reasons of ego: the humiliation of it all --not knowing and then feeling, well, stupid for not knowing, and then feeling how could she or he not WANT me but want the OW/OM after all I have done. provided, supported, etc.?

 

Or maybe you are devastated because the status quo, your version of reality has been tossed on its ear: I thought we'd grow old together. It's good enough, not everything I had hoped for, but good enough. We will stay together and raise a family, pay off the mortgage, live out the future I had envisioned it would be....good enough.

 

But for some of us, we really, really loved the spouse, through thick and thin, warts and all, and just wanted them to be happier with their life, our marriage, our family and hoped, hoped, hoped they would stop striving to find it happiness elsewhere.

 

We are the ones who were devastated upon discovery of infidelity. Never saw it coming.

 

So there are only three questions: What were your expectations of marriage?

 

Why weren't they met?

 

Why?

[seren]

Oh everything Spark said, and a question. Given that the OP is asking why not be open to the possibility of infidelity. Why not discuss that the WS has feelings for another, discuss that they want to have an A and then discuss the decision the BS makes, based upon an informed choice and then go from there?

[woinlove]

How is it not about being lied to?

 

Open relationships, swinging, FWB, poly relationships--all sorts of people practice all sorts of non-monogamy without lies and betrayal.

 

The thing that separates infidelity is the betrayal--the lies.

 

Even in open relationships, where people practice non-monogamy, their can be infidelity if there is lying and deceit. And then, in those cases, the non-monogamous BS goes through the same pain as a BS in a presumably monogamous relationship.

 

You say that, when you experienced infidelity, you felt you'd been made a fool, and insecure. You'd been fooled: lied to. Broken trust can also quickly amount to feeling unsure and unsafe: insecure.

 

I agree with all this. I'm in an open M, and if my H lied to me or hid his relationship with someone else, I would definitely feel that was a betrayal and the trust would be broken.

[wheelwright]

I have said this many times: Marriage is whatever two people define it to be.

 

For some, it is a contract of who pays the bills, who drives the kids, do we have enough to cover the mortgage, the barbecue and birthday gifts? I will tolerate your family; you tolerate mine. We will go through the motions for the sake of the kids. We will have sex often enough to convince ourselves we are happy.

 

When infidelity happens within that kind of marriage, perhaps the two spouses overcome it quickly to retain the status quo. They sweep it under the rug. That's okay, but I doubt they reel in pain and are posting at LS.

 

For those of us who were passionately partnered, who experienced swinging from the chandeliers, who shared every secret, goal, future plan, together......

 

Infidelity was devastating, not expected, not anticipated, and devastating.

 

Now maybe you were devastated for reasons of ego: the humiliation of it all --not knowing and then feeling, well, stupid for not knowing, and then feeling how could she or he not WANT me but want the OW/OM after all I have done. provided, supported, etc.?

 

Or maybe you are devastated because the status quo, your version of reality has been tossed on its ear: I thought we'd grow old together. It's good enough, not everything I had hoped for, but good enough. We will stay together and raise a family, pay off the mortgage, live out the future I had envisioned it would be....good enough.

 

But for some of us, we really, really loved the spouse, through thick and thin, warts and all, and just wanted them to be happier with their life, our marriage, our family and hoped, hoped, hoped they would stop striving to find it happiness elsewhere.

 

We are the ones who were devastated upon discovery of infidelity. Never saw it coming.

 

So there are only three questions: What were your expectations of marriage?

 

Why weren't they met?

 

Why?

 

This is a beautiful post to me. The best I have read on this subject. I guess because it resonates.

 

I think anyone experiencing M difficulties should be asked these Qs. Before or after infidelity.

 

To answer, one must be oneself in mind, body and soul.

 

Spark, you have been a companion to me with your good sense. Through how my feelings alter, I am understanding more why I am drawn to your views.

 

For me, your post above is quite definitive.

[OldOnTheInside]

Everything hurts if you let it.

 

Given the stats, everyone who asserts themselves as a die hard will never cheat person, will likely be betrayed.

 

One or the other in the R will likely do so.

 

I am thinking if we revised our expectations, we would hurt less when it happened. It won't not hurt, agreed. But it would be a more normal kind of hurt which didn't wreck the BS's self-esteem or confidence. That would be a good thing.

 

I am talking hypothetically rather than advocating. I don't know.

 

Alright, a late reply on my end but here we go...

 

Yes, everything will hurt if you let it. Problem is, we really don't have as much control over our emotions as we would like to believe. I mean, when I got married to a woman with recurring depression, I accepted the possibility that I would get hurt. But no matter how much mental discipline I had...being lied to and betrayed hurted like feck. I've betrayed and been betrayed by friends and family...so I've seen the pain on both sides of the coin. I don't see "expect to get stabbed in the back" as being a popular view.

 

Now matter what preparation you have, you never really know how you'll react until the sh*t hits the fan.

 

I have said this many times: Marriage is whatever two people define it to be.

And that is where a lot of the hurt comes from. When two or more people's intentions diverge and somebody ends up getting left in the dark. Somebody has to be the player, and somebody has to be the fool. Nobody wants to be the fool.

 

But for some of us, we really, really loved the spouse, through thick and thin, warts and all, and just wanted them to be happier with their life, our marriage, our family and hoped, hoped, hoped they would stop striving to find it happiness elsewhere.

This was me. I was the Ice King, and my now ex-wife had (and still has) the ability to turn me into a gooey puddle of rainbows and butterflies. Those affairs are the worst IMO. When a person is blindsided to the highest degree.

 

What was your opinion of your hubby before he had his first affair/started treating you poorely WW?

 

My personal opinion is this WW: When it comes to relationships (platonic or otherwise), one of the only things you have is trust. You can't control a friend or read their mind, so all you have is their word and their actions. What is left when the trust is gone? Memories and little else. That is the stink. Only way to prevent this would be to stop everybody from being dishonest. Which isn't happening.

Edited July 14, 2011 by OldOnTheInside