Dorie Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 If you are capable of doing pullups without kipping, do that instead please :lmao::lmao: Should those even count?! Link to post Share on other sites
Chocolat Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 :lmao::lmao: Should those even count?! They do at Crossfit. Link to post Share on other sites
Dorie Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 They do at Crossfit. Oh. See what I know? Link to post Share on other sites
tb24 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I can easily do them... but I only weigh 116lbs so it's hardly difficult to lift my body weight Link to post Share on other sites
Author cerridwen Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 Sure if you want to! There will be more of a load on your lats though, it may tire out that muscle group faster because it is taking the majority of the strain, which could possibly decrease your reps. If your going to 10, you might want to practice a neutral grip so that you can spread the load evenly. Tried the neutral grip today and it was tough. I widened it and let my lats take the load which seemed to work better. So, guess it's what I'll stick with for now but I really appreciate the tips, Pelican. For starting out, I would recommend doing negatives, flexed arm hangs, etc. If you are lucky enough to have a gym buddy, they can help assist you, assuming you're strong enough to "almost" get it. A spotter can also help you get forced reps at the end after you're already tuckered out, which could potentially help. The assisted pull up machines are ok, but I've been told that it messes up the proper pulling angles on the muscles needed to do pullups, which ends up in a disconnect on the carryover between the "pullup machines" and real pull ups. Hey, t!!! I don't have a gym buddy so the pull up machine is what I'm forced to use. I set it for the lowest possible assistance and it was very helpful. I'm feeling pretty determined to do these for no other reason than to have the ability. The muscle development in terms of aesthetics doesn't interest me. The pull up is like something denied me that I'm determined to snatch back! After just a week of training with this guy in the gym, to my absolute amazement I was able to do it. Not only that but I learned from this guy that pull-ups look hard but they really aren't. I carried what I learned in that class with me for the rest of my life. I'm capable of so much more than I ever think. I second (or third) doing negatives! I think that's it, LL. I want to push myself in this regard. Try first by building using pull downs. I have hernia risks so I stopped doing them. I used to be good at them. I can still do a bunch but not worth the risk for me. The longer your arms the harder it is. Increasing body weight by just a tad makes it much harder too. Luckily I don't have long arms so that might have been in part why today went very well. Thanks! The thing that really helps, imo, is being fairly light. My daughter (who's obviously not at her adult weight yet) can do pull-ups with ease (she's also a very athletic kid). Ditto my son who is 5'10" and maybe 145 (he's 16). I'm also pretty small. Anyway, you can do it! You'll get some awesome back development out of it, too. :bunny: Even at my tiniest (108lbs @ 5foot5), I couldn't do them, Chocolat. That's what made me think it was all about technique and I just didn't have it down. But I'm gonna do this. Or, at least pull something trying. I can easily do them... but I only weigh 116lbs so it's hardly difficult to lift my body weight My weight's not far from yours at all so this is good news tb! All I need to do is practice, practice, practice, don't you think? Link to post Share on other sites
tman666 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Soooooo... I was thinking about my answer earlier regarding pullups, and I'd like to revise it. A big part of getting stronger is power generation: i.e. you're ability to recruit enough muscle fibers quickly enough to do the job. If I want to build my deadlift, fast single reps are a great way to build my off-the-floor power. Since pull ups are similar in that you start from a "rest" position (hanging at the bottom), your ability to generate power at the bottom of the movement might be a limiting factor. In addition to negatives and flexed arm hangs, I would focus on being as explosive as possible on either the lat pull down or the assisted pull up machine to work on power generation from the bottom of the movement. Explosive concentric power is crucial to the pullup. Link to post Share on other sites
Author cerridwen Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 Soooooo... I was thinking about my answer earlier regarding pullups, and I'd like to revise it. A big part of getting stronger is power generation: i.e. you're ability to recruit enough muscle fibers quickly enough to do the job. If I want to build my deadlift, fast single reps are a great way to build my off-the-floor power. Since pull ups are similar in that you start from a "rest" position (hanging at the bottom), your ability to generate power at the bottom of the movement might be a limiting factor. In addition to negatives and flexed arm hangs, I would focus on being as explosive as possible on either the lat pull down or the assisted pull up machine to work on power generation from the bottom of the movement. Explosive concentric power is crucial to the pullup. Sweet. I love doing lat pull downs. Explosive, huh?...*thinking* Okay. I'll try it. Thanks, t. Link to post Share on other sites
tb24 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Even at my tiniest (108lbs @ 5foot5), I couldn't do them, Chocolat. That's what made me think it was all about technique and I just didn't have it down. But I'm gonna do this. Or, at least pull something trying. My weight's not far from yours at all so this is good news tb! All I need to do is practice, practice, practice, don't you think? You're probably more muscular than I am, I'm 5'10 and 116lbs. I've never had a problem doing them, I always assumed it was because I didn't have much to lift. I can do them from things where I can't even grip that well like the top of door frames (But it strains my fingers so I tend not to). I'd say your problem is likely technique. Link to post Share on other sites
Star Gazer Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) Try kipping... TMan poo poos it and everything else CrossFit related, but it's far less "dangerous" than an "explosive" lat pull down. Edited July 12, 2011 by Star Gazer Link to post Share on other sites
tman666 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Try kipping... TMan poo poos it and everything else CrossFit related, but it's far less "dangerous" than an "explosive" lat pull down. Oh uh uh, no you di'int! How exactly is a lat pull down more or less dangerous than a pull up? Video evidence: http://www.barstoolsports.com/boston/super-page/nice-pull-up-brah/ Looks to me like he was setting up for a pretty heavy kip to me... Link to post Share on other sites
Author cerridwen Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 Try kipping... TMan poo poos it and everything else CrossFit related, but it's far less "dangerous" than an "explosive" lat pull down. Oh uh uh, no you di'int! How exactly is a lat pull down more or less dangerous than a pull up? Video evidence: http://www.barstoolsports.com/boston/super-page/nice-pull-up-brah/ Looks to me like he was setting up for a pretty heavy kip to me... ooohhhhh yeah. Kipping rumble *grabs popcorn* Let the fur start flyin'! Link to post Share on other sites
Chocolat Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 ooohhhhh yeah. Kipping rumble *grabs popcorn* Let the fur start flyin'! I would say that I have Tman's back, but he surely doesn't need me. I am with him on the kipping pullup thing. Much better to start with good form, imo. Link to post Share on other sites
tman666 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I would say that I have Tman's back, but he surely doesn't need me. I am with him on the kipping pullup thing. Much better to start with good form, imo. Thanks Chocolat! It's not that I want to start some sort of petty "kipping" vs. "no kipping" war, but I'd sure love to hear some well thought out arguments for kipping beyond "building confidence". I'm not being sarcastic. I mean, I can load up 500 lbs on the squat bar and move it up and down 6 inches, but am I squatting 500 lbs? Heck no. Do I then go home and give myself a pat on the back for "being able to squat 500?" I've never seen anyone be highly successful at anything with that kind of attitude. Perhaps kipping pull ups have their place, but I'm just not seeing it. It would be nice to hear a well thought out counter argument other than being smeared as being a Crossfit "poo pooer"... Link to post Share on other sites
SmileFace Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Isn't kipping bad for the spine? Link to post Share on other sites
PelicanPete Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 There is a line though. Outside of the learning stage, kipping is unacceptable and usually frowned upon. If you are capable of doing pullups without kipping, do that instead Both the videos I linked and tman linked were two gentlemen fully capable of doing pullups without kipping. I don't pay much attention to crossfit so I don't really have much to say about it. If you can't do pullups without kipping, it's better to do a kipping pullup then no pullup at all. So what if you're using your legs in the beginning, you're building strength regardless and with practice you won't need to kip anymore. You're still working the muscles required to perform the pullup, and probably gaining more strength to do pullups then "explosive lat pull downs" which is a plyometric exercise which builds muscle power rather then strength. If you aren't capable of doing pullups anyway, you want to build strength. The lat pulldown exercise tman described would be a good exercise if you want to work on clapping pullups which requires that burst. So if you can't get your chin above the bar, you can kip yourself up and then do a slow fully extended negative until you are capable of doing full pullups. If you're very inexperienced and not strong enough to do pullups you can't expect to run before you can walk, it takes practice. I mean, I can load up 500 lbs on the squat bar and move it up and down 6 inches, but am I squatting 500 lbs? Heck no. Do I then go home and give myself a pat on the back for "being able to squat 500?" I've never seen anyone be highly successful at anything with that kind of attitude. Regarding this argument, unless you have extreme flexibility issues anyone is capable of doing a squat without weights. Not everyone is capable of doing a pullup without weights because a pullup is a harder ability to learn. Adding weight to squats means that you are capable of doing a squat without weight, because we all know you have to learn to walk before you can run. So if you do a crappy formed squat when you are fully capable of doing one with good form then of course it wouldn't be satisfying. If you can't even do a regular pullup, then kipping is the next best thing because it is a modified version of a pullup. It is a stepping stone in learning how to do an average pullup if you aren't capable of one to begin with. It's the exact same as the "girl pushups" for people not quite ready for pushups, where you rest on your knees rather then your toes. You work the same muscles with kipping pullups as you do with regular pullups, it's just not as intense. An analogy of it in weight lifting would be jumping to 80lb curls when you're only capable of 40. You have to work your way up and build strength. If you only stick to 80 lbs curls when you aren't capable and never allow yourself to go lighter, you'll only get discouraged and quit. So kipping pullups are exactly the same as "girl pushups". If you are capable of doing regular pushups, people are going to be facepalming when they see you pumping out tons of girl pushups. If you can do regular pullups, people will be equally discouraged seeing you do kipping pullups. Link to post Share on other sites
Star Gazer Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Thanks Chocolat! It's not that I want to start some sort of petty "kipping" vs. "no kipping" war, but I'd sure love to hear some well thought out arguments for kipping beyond "building confidence". I'm not being sarcastic. I mean, I can load up 500 lbs on the squat bar and move it up and down 6 inches, but am I squatting 500 lbs? Heck no. Do I then go home and give myself a pat on the back for "being able to squat 500?" I've never seen anyone be highly successful at anything with that kind of attitude. Perhaps kipping pull ups have their place, but I'm just not seeing it. It would be nice to hear a well thought out counter argument other than being smeared as being a Crossfit "poo pooer"... How can one pose a "counter-argument" when there's no argument in the first place? What evidence do you have that kipping is inappropriate or outright dangerous for someone who's learning to do pull-ups? And I'm not "smearing" you. You've had an anti-CrossFit agenda here from Day 1. You just can't seem to agree to disagree on the subject. There IS more than one effective and healthy way to workout, ya know. Link to post Share on other sites
Star Gazer Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 So kipping pullups are exactly the same as "girl pushups". If you are capable of doing regular pushups, people are going to be facepalming when they see you pumping out tons of girl pushups. If you can do regular pullups, people will be equally discouraged seeing you do kipping pullups. Well, yes. But the thing is, a kipping pull-up (which existed before CrossFit, thanks, and plenty of folks who've never even heard of CF do them) is a functional exercise. That functional exercise is more like how you'd actually pull yourself up and over something, than a "correct form" pull up is. IMO, functional fitness and athleticism aren't obtained in a gym and doing every move/lift with perfect form and gaining power. Bodies don't operate in perfect form when doing real work. And I'm not saying that as a CrossFitter, as I don't even do it anymore. Link to post Share on other sites
Trojan John Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Just practice every day. Every single day. My wife couldn't do one before, but is now able to do three unassisted and more with weight assistance. I'm a climber so I do multiple variations using as few as one finger or just the tips. It's all a matter of consistent practice. Link to post Share on other sites
PelicanPete Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Well, yes. But the thing is, a kipping pull-up (which existed before CrossFit, thanks, and plenty of folks who've never even heard of CF do them) is a functional exercise. That functional exercise is more like how you'd actually pull yourself up and over something, than a "correct form" pull up is. IMO, functional fitness and athleticism aren't obtained in a gym and doing every move/lift with perfect form and gaining power. Bodies don't operate in perfect form when doing real work. And I'm not saying that as a CrossFitter, as I don't even do it anymore. Yes I agree with you. I don't know much about crossfit so I avoided bringing it up. If they focus more on the task at hand rather then how you perform it some of their exercises make more sense to me now. In a real life situation you don't need to do a perfect pull up to get from point A to point B simply because it isn't necessary. Everyones got different fitness goals, so everyones going to be taking different approaches to accomplishing them. Different strokes for different folks. I was focusing my answer more on the OP, because she wants to gain the strength to do 10 regular pullups. I was just trying to show that kipping can be a valid step in learning pullups Link to post Share on other sites
Chocolat Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 If you can't even do a regular pullup, then kipping is the next best thing because it is a modified version of a pullup. It is a stepping stone in learning how to do an average pullup if you aren't capable of one to begin with. It's the exact same as the "girl pushups" for people not quite ready for pushups, where you rest on your knees rather then your toes. Hey Pete, thanks for your well thought out post. The only place I disagree is with the above. A "girl" pushup still maintains good form, whereas a kipping pullup does not. It strikes me that the kipping pullup puts undue stress on the shoulders. If someone can't do a full pullup, then I think negatives and the assisted machine (where form can be maintained) are the best choice. I also don't see anything wrong with progressing into the real deal an inch at a time. Link to post Share on other sites
Chocolat Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 IMO, functional fitness and athleticism aren't obtained in a gym and doing every move/lift with perfect form and gaining power. Bodies don't operate in perfect form when doing real work. And I'm not saying that as a CrossFitter, as I don't even do it anymore. "Functional fitness" sounds like a made-up phrase to justify poor form. People routinely lift objects the wrong way when doing "real work" and end up putting out their backs, for instance. Learning the correct form minimizes the chances of injury and maximizes results. Link to post Share on other sites
tman666 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Pelican Pete: Thank you. That's what I was looking for. I can see how it could be beneficial to someone still developing their strength to kip their pull ups. However, I take exception to your implication that power and strength are unrelated, but that's an entirely different topic. StarGazer: Where exactly did I say that I felt that kipping was dangerous? All I ever stated was that I didn't see a purpose in it. Pelican Pete's post highlights a potential purpose to it, so I think we can put that to rest. And LOL @ "functional fitness and athleticism not being built in a gym". So you mean to say that if I can squat 500 with perfect form in the gym that I'm somehow not preparing myself for anything in "real life"? How about deadlifting? Absolutely no carry-over there, right? You seem to make the assumption that practicing using good form in the gym is a waste of time. What makes you think that if a person can do perfect "gym" pull ups that they wouldn't be able to climb something? It's drivel like this that makes you CrossFitters so hard to take seriously. I'm starting to remember why I formed my agenda to begin with. Link to post Share on other sites
Chocolat Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 How about deadlifting? Absolutely no carry-over there, right? You seem to make the assumption that practicing using good form in the gym is a waste of time. What makes you think that if a person can do perfect "gym" pull ups that they wouldn't be able to climb something? I was thinking of deadlifts when I wrote my post. GMTA. Seriously, how often do you hear of someone bending down to pick something up (rounding the back, of course) and then ending up with a back injury? Learning good form is essential to "functional" fitness. Link to post Share on other sites
PelicanPete Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Hey Pete, thanks for your well thought out post. The only place I disagree is with the above. A "girl" pushup still maintains good form, whereas a kipping pullup does not. It strikes me that the kipping pullup puts undue stress on the shoulders. If someone can't do a full pullup, then I think negatives and the assisted machine (where form can be maintained) are the best choice. I also don't see anything wrong with progressing into the real deal an inch at a time. A girl pushup still has the potential to be done poorly even though it is a modified exercise. There is the potential to do badly formed kipping pullups like in the video I linked, and yea that guy definitely has the potential of hurting himself The whole point of kipping is to use the momentum from your legs to help get you from point A to point B. It is a modified exercise which is meant to take stress off your shoulders and lats so you have the ability to get your chin above the bar. But I agree with you, the exercises you described can also help you do pullups. There are plenty of ways to skin a cat Link to post Share on other sites
fitgirl Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 i can do ten but i've worked out forever. most gals can't do any. go for it! Link to post Share on other sites
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