My BW wants to meet my ex-OW

[LilyBart]

Right....that is very unlikely. And I am not a BW...but have been an OW and that sounds absurd. It is POSSIBLE but highly improbable that that was the case. After dday and this man throwing you under the bus you "decide" his wife can "keep him"...lmao funny. You didn't decide anything...you were forced into that position.

 

 

Maybe that's what happened to you - but if a man waffles and then has the audacity to leave BW and go groveling back to her...well he can stay there!

[MissBee]

Maybe that's what happened to you - but if a man waffles and then has the audacity to leave BW and go groveling back to her...well he can stay there!

 

Nothing happened to me....I was commenting on the situation Spark spoke of between her H and the OW as well as the general phenomena of OW being thrown under the bus when wifey finds out and the MM grovels to the wife.

 

I don't see the point or difference between not accepting back a man who grovels to his wife...and accepting one who is still with his wife, just cheating on her. I really don't. They are equal P's in my eyes as neither is doing anything about anything. If the wife doesn't know and finds out and you grovel...BIG P. If the wife doesn't know and now she finds out and you don't grovel and leave...BIG P. As you took ZERO initiative but waited until you were caught.....

 

Neither is noble.

[MissBee]

The A is a symptom of something wrong in the M. People can deny this all they want but that's the truth.

 

I agree, as well as a symptom of something wrong with that individual and how they handle conflict.

 

Serial cheaters aside, most happily married people WILL NOT jeopardize their marriage like that. The A obviously fulfills the cheating spouse in a way the M isn't. Like you said, fair or unfair, that's the reality.

 

I'm sure this is true sometimes, although when I was the OW, not a darn thing was wrong with his relationship why he did it, was he a serial cheater? Have no clue as he did not share that info with me....

 

Who knows why? There could be a million different reasons. But for the BS who wants to find out - the answer lies in their CS, not the OW/OM.

 

Agree. I do not believe the desire to talk to the OW/OM is because he/she is seen as some holy grail with all the answers, but moreso a sick curiosity sometimes and just wanting to really hear how their CS carried on and to compare notes or to see the true extent of either the bullshyt...or get insight into the problem from a vantage point other than your lying spouse. When a crime is committed for example, the authorities speak to several people to glean an understand from all the angles of what happened, as that provides the truest and most full picture versus just the culprit's account or just the victim's account. I think it's a similar type of thing.

 

It's not the A "taking away" anything from the M but what was "missing from" the M that allowed the A to flourish. Once again, the answer lies in the CS.

 

The answer does lie in the CS...I agree. If a marriage has missing elements, one person choosing to add an affair to the mix, surely does nothing to fix anything, but probably adds more stress to it and takes away from their family and marriage. Yes all A scenarios are different but in many, especially when the BS feels something is off... the shifting of the CS's focus, perhaps finances, time commitments, the lot does take away from the marriage and family. Instead of both people jumping in feet first to make it work, one decided to check out. How can the missing part be found or fixed if such is the case? It can't, so I'll stand by my taking away sentiment. If you aren't fixing the problem, you've just added to it. I also find nothing attractive about a man with a broken marriage boohooing to me about it and having a symptomatic affair or what not lol...it's not attractive. If something is missing I'd like you to fix it and if it can't be fixed, go on about your business. Although I suppose, many OW/OM feel at the time that the problem is not in their beloved, but he/she is simply a victim of some defective spouse. But we all must rationally see that that does not have to be the case at all. The cheater and the one being cheated on may play equal roles in the demise of their marriage or the cheater may be the one who is effing the whole thing up....or the one cheated on likewise could be the main problem. In any case...that person and their defective marriage should probably try to fix it or leave. Their choice to have an affair,, that can flourish supposedly but they can neither get out or get it right with the M is a bit suspect....but that's just me.

 

 

I agree that the BS should be able to speak with the OW/OM if s/he wants to. Except the OW/OM is under no obligation to do so. *shrug*

 

We again agree here as that's what I said, the OW/OM doesn't owe the BS anything but if the BS has a desire to know...that desire makes sense but it is not something obligatory on the OW/OM's part

 

 

Define "rights".

 

Perhaps you'd prefer privileges? Just look at society and the forum....marriage comes with legal rights and privileges as well as it has a particular social standing in society, for better or worst, that affairs don't have. This point doesn't need to be belabored as this very forum is self evident that such is the case

 

And the OW doesn't really infringe upon YOUR life....unless you find out about her. Lol.

 

You're infringing upon my marriage...which is my life...regardless of if I find out about you or not. If you are carrying on a relationship with my husband....you have just infringed upon my life. If people sneak into my house, eat my food, use up my electricity and water and chill there while I am away on vacation, and I never find out, they've still infringed upon my life. If you drug me and rape me and I don't find out...you've still violated me. It also goes back to the idea earlier that I didn't spell out, of how things have a ripple effect and collateral damage and how thiings feel different and ARE essentially different even if one cannot place a finger on it. Often times when you find out, you can go back and trace the fact that you did feel off and it did affect you in certain ways. A shift in energy does feel apparent, to me anyway.When someone is angry at you, you feel that their energy is different. If someone is standoffish, you feel it, if your relationship is rocky, you can feel it (even if you ignore it). And if the CS can carry on and allow the energy not to shift AT ALL with his/her wife...then wow...that takes loads of energy and focus on their part too and then I as the OW would really wonder if I could bother with a man who is going to put so much work into making his wife happy and making the energy the same yet not work on the marriage or choose to leave. Although my belief and experience is that actions and words can lie but the underlying energy cannot be manipulated.

 

 

 

This makes sense - but it's the CS's portion of the A that is the BS's business, not the OW/OM's portion. It doesn't make a difference to the OW/OM whether they speak with the BS or not - it's really not going to impact their life especially if the A is over, you know? So I can see why most OW/OM won't bother doing so.

 

Some OW/OM would probably want to speak to the BS...I know that BB07 for example wanted to, she was lied to by her MM. I have been out of my A for about 4 years now and it doesn't bother my life and he's no longer with the woman I don't think, but if he were and she wanted to talk to me today post-A, I'd engage her, especially now that I have no vested interested either way. I don't think some BS's want to know about the OM/OW's "portion" so much as they want to know what their husband/wife did in regards to this other person, what they said, compare it to what they told them they said and so on versus trying to figure out why the OW/OM did it. Well that would be what I want to know anyway. I wouldn't be there to scold (unless she was a friend or someone who knew me)...I'd just want to compare what her version of events were with his.

 

My responses are bolded.

Edited July 21, 2011 by MissBee

[woinlove]

Situation is below.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=277921

 

I had an EA with a coworker that lasted a few months and only recently ended. This happened a few years after my own wife's affair which I didn't handle very well. We were incredibly immature when it comes to relationships, and a physical separation from my wife has made this more apparent to both of us. Basically, we both behaved like giant tits, and neither of us want to behave like giant tits anymore.

 

So, as part of the reconciliation process with my wife, she would like to set up a lunch date with my ex-OW. Just to hear her side of the story and get some closure. Ex-OW is perfectly fine with it. Neither of them are violent or angry people so that it isn't exactly what I'm worried about.

 

Now, I never got to meet my wife's ex-OM so I don't have much experience in this area. For anyone who have been in similar positions to either my wife, ex-OW or both, what issues do think they might raise? I want to be able to plan ahead on particular subjects, and talk to my wife about them afterwards.

 

I'm especially curious as to what my ex-OW might say.

 

Thanks.

 

Since they are both fine with this meeting, if you are now open and honest, I don't see much of a problem here for you. When my MM's W contacted me she was very angry, had some things to say to me, which I listened to, and a few questions which I answered honestly. Sounds like your W is likely to do this without without the the type of anger I encountered. I wouldn't assume the OW would lie just because she was an OW. Perhaps if she is married, there would be reason to lie, and she may be protecting lies she told her H. If she does lie, that says something about her character and maybe you know her well enough, SIV, to know whether that is a likely behavior for her.

 

In open M's, it is not at all unusual for the W to meet her H's lover (whether it is physical, emotional, or both). In open M's it is acknowledged that a third person can both affect the R between H and W and be affected by it, so it's good for everyone to know what the real situation is. Clearly the dynamics are very different than in your case, where you W may want to verify parts of your story. Without other information and if the OW is single, I would assume she will be honest in the meeting. I was and I would expect most people to act this way, unless you know they are dishonest. Being an OW often doesn't involve any direct lying as it does for the MM.

[woinlove]

Stuck in Vertigo, I haven't read all of this thread, but I see a bit of back-and-forth between some OW and BS here. As an OW I didn't feel hostile toward the W and, while I wouldn't seek her out in any way, if she sought me out, I would try to behave respectfully and honestly. I see you were thinking of leaving your M for her, so unless you were thinking irrationally then, she likely is someone who will behave in an adult manner in what might be an awkward or emotional meeting at times.

 

The few threads I recall here on LS where the W sought out the OW, I recall the OW treating the W with respect and trying to answer her questions. One was an OW with multiple MM.

[spice4life]

Well, SB, you very evolved in that you owned your feelings and answered truthfully.

 

My experience? Not only in my own personal sitch but IRL, rare.....very, very rare to not get dodged and weaved and avoided and disrepected.....again.

 

Many a MM count on it I believe; the OW still protects him even after she has been thrown under the bus.

 

Why?

 

I could never figure it out.

 

If I were faced with this situation, I would be totally and completely honest with the BW. I figure, what's the point of being dishonest? There is no healing in that...right? I would also apologize for intruding on their marriage even though I didn't know anything about it. He was separated and on his way to divorce when I met him and that was the last thing I knew about their marriage. I would definitely have questions too!

 

It's always best to confront these situations with complete and total honesty. It's takes away a person's ability to hide and dodge reality. That's the way I see it anyway.

[spice4life]

You are missing the point. His EA would not have happened at all if she did not cheat on him. He only needed the emotional support in direct response to her actions. She had sex with someone else. He did not. He could not turn to his wife for this emotional support since she was the cause. It was only human that he needed to get this emotional support from someone else. He did nothing wrong.

 

Also, if someone stabs you in the heart with a knife and you push them away, would it make any sense for the police to arrest both of you and charge you both with the same crime of assault? Under the law, pushing another person is considered assault, but the law would look at the circumstances involved and not charge you. You should consider the circumstance of the EA and do the same.

 

There are plenty of people who were cheated on and didn't turn around and do the same thing EA or PA - it doesn't matter, both are cheating. Plenty of them are posting right here...look at spark111. Your approach seems to be more about who has the upper hand and was betrayed more. That doesn't lend well to the healing process. If he chooses to admit his mistake in how he dealt with it, then that makes him the bigger person in my eyes. If she doesn't show total remorse (and who is to say she hasn't already?), she will probably end up losing her marriage when all is said and done.

[donnamaybe]

We are discussing it because he posted on this forum asking for advice. It is totally up to him to decide if he wants to follow my advice.

I'm sorry. I guess I missed the part where there was advice.

[donnamaybe]

The A is a symptom of something wrong in the M. People can deny this all they want but that's the truth.

Hmmm.... If that's true, then I guess every single WS is pu**y for not confronting the issues with the BS.

[donnamaybe]

If I were faced with this situation, I would be totally and completely honest with the BW. I figure, what's the point of being dishonest? There is no healing in that...right? I would also apologize for intruding on their marriage even though I didn't know anything about it. He was separated and on his way to divorce when I met him and that was the last thing I knew about their marriage. I would definitely have questions too!

 

It's always best to confront these situations with complete and total honesty. It's takes away a person's ability to hide and dodge reality. That's the way I see it anyway.

What a very adult and honest viewpoint! Kudos s4l!

[Glinda]

I'm sure this is what you (and probably a lot of BWs) would like to think but it's possible that your OW realized what a p*ssy her boyfriend was and decided you could keep him. And since you took your groveling H back it all worked out for the best, didn't it?

LOL. Your jealousy and bitterness at being the OW screams through your posts.

[bentnotbroken]

I sure hope you have told your wife the ENTIRE truth. I always told my then MM that if asked outright I would not lie. When his wife busted us she asked me questions and I answered them truthfully. The nature of the questions left no doubt as to the validity of my information because they were date and situation specific. It was obvious from her reaction that this was the first time she was hearing all of this. It was also obvious that there could be no doubt that I was not lying.

 

OW are not shrinking violets and contrary to popular belief they are not scared of wives. You need to think very carefully about what you may have confided in your affair partner over the course of your affair. You may both start out with deciding to tell the same "story" but let your wife get uppity and your XOW might decide to blow.

 

 

Some are, some aren't. I don't know many wives(or husbands for that matter) think that AP is afraid of them. I for one think they are afraid of the consequences of actions. I have read on here that how one shouldn't speak to the wife because you don't know what the wife's reaction would be. Why worry about her reaction? I mean if you are good and feel good about your actions...there should be no reason not to deal with the BS and their reactions. You never know what an "uppity wife" might do...right?

[Try]

There are plenty of people who were cheated on and didn't turn around and do the same thing EA or PA - it doesn't matter, both are cheating. Plenty of them are posting right here...look at spark111. Your approach seems to be more about who has the upper hand and was betrayed more. That doesn't lend well to the healing process. If he chooses to admit his mistake in how he dealt with it, then that makes him the bigger person in my eyes. If she doesn't show total remorse (and who is to say she hasn't already?), she will probably end up losing her marriage when all is said and done.

The premise that his EA is cheating just like his wife’s PA is what I call into question. Below are comments contained in the OP’s original thread in May.

my wife told me she was having an affair with her boss. As you can imagine, I went through hell for the next few months. I was always loyal and trusting of her throughout the marriage. I really did love her.

I had a bit of an epiphany. I hadn't forgiven my wife, I doubt that I could ever forgive her, and I didn't love her anymore. To be honest, I don't really see her as my wife anymore.

I have been considering divorce for a while now, but there are a few things that are stopping me. I have an 11 year old son that I really don't want to put in that situation.

Out of respect and love for my wife, I never would have crossed any lines with the co-worker. Now that the respect and love is gone, things are different. We haven't done anything physical yet

My dilemma is whether I should just bite the bullet and get a divorce now or wait until my son is older and more independent, which could take 7 or 8 years.

 

I feel incredibly lost right now, and could really use some advice.

Was he wrong for not forgiving his wife? Was he wrong for no longer seeing her as his wife anymore after she cheated? Was he wrong for wanting a divorce because of her affair? He clearly states that he “never would have crossed any lines with the co-worker” (although he did resist letting it become physical) if he had not lost respect and love for his wife because of the cheating; was he wrong to have lost respect and love for his wife because of the cheating? Was he wrong for being lost? Apparently some of you think that he was wrong for feeling and responding to his wife’s cheating the way that he did. I do not agree with this and even applaud him for not having a PA even though he plainly wanted to.

 

Although he clearly did not think he did anything wrong when he posted in May, now that he has decided to try to save the marriage and forgive his wife because of his son, his past response to her cheating must be considered wrong since his wife finds them hurtful. I do not buy this line of thinking and my advice to the OP is neither should he. If this marriage is to last past the stated “7 or 8 years”, it cannot be based on the false premise that he was also in the wrong.

[SoMovinOn]

I already knew my W's AP's, so, the issue of wanting to meet them for the first time isn't anything I had to deal with.

 

My attitude is the A has nothing to do with the AP. The M has nothing to do with the AP. R has nothing to do with the AP. So, I can't see a point in meeting them. I don't think the "closure" she is looking for will happen. The closure she wants is for it to make sense, and she's hoping meeting the OW will provide that. It won't. You didn't have the A because of your AP. You had the A because of you.

 

To be fair, I did meet with one of her AP's after D-Day, but that was because he was my best friend. There were issues between me and him that I wanted to deal with. That was something different though - it was between me and him. It didn't do anything to help things between me and my W.

[bentnotbroken]

I already knew my W's AP's, so, the issue of wanting to meet them for the first time isn't anything I had to deal with.

 

My attitude is the A has nothing to do with the AP. The M has nothing to do with the AP. R has nothing to do with the AP. So, I can't see a point in meeting them. I don't think the "closure" she is looking for will happen. The closure she wants is for it to make sense, and she's hoping meeting the OW will provide that. It won't. You didn't have the A because of your AP. You had the A because of you.

 

To be fair, I did meet with one of her AP's after D-Day, but that was because he was my best friend. There were issues between me and him that I wanted to deal with. That was something different though - it was between me and him. It didn't do anything to help things between me and my W.

 

 

This may be true for some people and for you. For me it worked...every time I did it. I guess it is an individual thing to what one believes will help them heal. My healing needed to begin with both people who inflicted the wounds.

[donnamaybe]

The premise that his EA is cheating just like his wife’s PA is what I call into question. Below are comments contained in the OP’s original thread in May.

 

 

 

 

 

Was he wrong for not forgiving his wife? Was he wrong for no longer seeing her as his wife anymore after she cheated? Was he wrong for wanting a divorce because of her affair? He clearly states that he “never would have crossed any lines with the co-worker” (although he did resist letting it become physical) if he had not lost respect and love for his wife because of the cheating; was he wrong to have lost respect and love for his wife because of the cheating? Was he wrong for being lost? Apparently some of you think that he was wrong for feeling and responding to his wife’s cheating the way that he did. I do not agree with this and even applaud him for not having a PA even though he plainly wanted to.

 

Although he clearly did not think he did anything wrong when he posted in May, now that he has decided to try to save the marriage and forgive his wife because of his son, his past response to her cheating must be considered wrong since his wife finds them hurtful. I do not buy this line of thinking and my advice to the OP is neither should he. If this marriage is to last past the stated “7 or 8 years”, it cannot be based on the false premise that he was also in the wrong.

But that isn't what the OP asked. He asked about the meeting which he had already decided upon. He didn't ask about anything else.

[Spark1111]

If I were faced with this situation, I would be totally and completely honest with the BW. I figure, what's the point of being dishonest? There is no healing in that...right? I would also apologize for intruding on their marriage even though I didn't know anything about it. He was separated and on his way to divorce when I met him and that was the last thing I knew about their marriage. I would definitely have questions too!

 

It's always best to confront these situations with complete and total honesty. It's takes away a person's ability to hide and dodge reality. That's the way I see it anyway.

 

And that makes you an adult who owned her choices. Be proud of yourself.

 

However, sadly, so many run and hide in their romantic delusions, sometimes for years!

 

Maybe they truly NEED to believe the fantasy lies, or hope someday, if his lies about the marriage were true, it will die of natural causes and he will return to his one "true" soulmat and they will live happily ever after.

 

What a waste of time and energy, IMHO. Most people, certainly selfish, self-entitled people, are EXACTLY where they want to be, doing EXACTLY what they want to do, BELIEVING whatever they need to to do so.

[Spark1111]

And if that means avoiding the wife's phone call to avoid finding out she is a decent, kind and loving woman; or one who is working three jobs to keep a roof over their heads; or that she truly loved the same man and you and he broke her heart....well, pfffft....there goes that fantasy.

 

I believe that when people avoid the truth of their own relationships and their own lives, that speaks volumes to weaknesses within.

[Spark1111]

But that isn't what the OP asked. He asked about the meeting which he had already decided upon. He didn't ask about anything else.

 

Being a scorekeeper in any relationship only builds resentment, fuels anger, and is a death knell to intimacy.

 

Scorekeepers do NOT make good long-term partners.

[Try]

But that isn't what the OP asked. He asked about the meeting which he had already decided upon. He didn't ask about anything else.

In my original post to this thread I stated that "As for your wife meeting your Ex-OW, that is just furthering the con that you were equally in the wrong". As you can see I did directly answer his question, and am now defending how I arrived at that answer in these follow up posts. Also, there is nothing out of bounds with me challenging the premise of his question so that he might reconsider his course of action.

 

Based on his May thread, I am concerned that he is just going through the motions of patching things up with his wife so that he can get through the next few years for his son. My advice is for him to try to make the marriage work for real, and that cannot happen until he truly forgives her; which will not happen unless she accepts full and total responsibility for the damage that she did to their marriage, and the hurt that she caused him. Up until now he has not done anything wrong, but if he just goes through the motions without really giving her a change to earn his forgiveness, he is doing both of them a disservice.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Try
Typo

[Spark1111]

Oh right - you had one of those who came crawling back begging for your forgiveness.....

 

Nah, not intitially. He wanted a return to status quo. I wanted the loving man he had once been. Kept throwing him out until a sign of truth and accountability could come out of his mouth. He kept running back to her and she kept taking him back.

 

 

 

Well you did get a "version of the truth" from your H, didn't you? And quite frankly, isn't what happened in your M more important than what happened in the A?

 

Until something rang true to me, it wasn't. He'd been lying for almost two years, so who could possibly believe him? And also, I was to blame for everything wrong in his life. Okay, if that's how you feel, buh-bye. What ARE you STILL doing here? Go be with your soulmate.

 

So, what happened in my marriage? He grew depressed, felt less than, blamed me for it all so he could find reasons to be with a woman who accepted his crumbs, never rocked a boat, and pined for a future he kept alluding to. Easy, peasy fantasy relationship with no demands.

 

 

 

And you thought you were going to get this answer from HER? Why? By your own admission, it's your WH's "truth about his feelings" you deserved to know.....so why ask HER?

 

This may shock some, but I wanted to know her feelings too. She had almost two years of lying and sneaking and false promises.

 

 

 

This is what I find funny.

 

It's funny how you're SO QUICK to point out how easily you would have gotten rid of your WH had he "left to go live with her" and yet you can't accept that this is what she (the OW) chose to do.

 

She didn't choose it. He dumped her. And quite honestly, I felt sorry for her and chastised HIM for his treatment of her. Yes, I, to am a rare woman.

 

Why is it so "amazing" that she didn't have any questions for you? She may have loved him but he went groveling back to you. At that point why would she want him back?

 

Because two years later she re-initiated contact and wanted to know if he was still interested. So, my instincts were right.

 

And I'm definitely looking a this from (my) OW perspective - but if you didn't matter to her during the A, why do you think you would matter to her afterwards?

 

Reasons of exercising my self-confidence and healthy ego. I matter to me. My marriage and family life matter to me. I am not the little uncaring wifey as portrayed to you. I will respect you and leave you alone, but stay away from my man and my life or else.

 

It worked.

 

 

I'm sure this is what you (and probably a lot of BWs) would like to think but it's possible that your OW realized what a p*ssy her boyfriend was and decided you could keep him. And since you took your groveling H back it all worked out for the best, didn't it?

 

Several months later, yes. But she should have realized she had a p*ssy AP when he strung her along for years with one excuse after another that came and went and still she hung on....

 

But she wouldn't, cause she was a p*ssy too. T that time in his life, they were perfectly suited for each other.

 

And still I carry empathy for her. Probably for that reason.

[donnamaybe]

Yes, Spark, you ARE one very rare woman!

 

Some people deal with a situation one way, others another way. The OP came on here to ask what he might expect from such a meeting. I don't think he expected to get beat over the head with why the meeting shouldn't take place.

[Spark1111]

In my original post to this thread I stated that "As for your wife meeting your Ex-OW, that is just furthering the con that you were equally in the wrong". As you can see I did directly answer his question, and am now defending how I arrived at that answer in these follow up posts. Also, there is nothing out of bounds with me challenging the premise of his question so that he might reconsider his course of action.

 

Based on his May thread, I am concerned that he is just going through the motions of patching things up with his wife so that he can get through the next few years for his son. My advice is for him to try to make the marriage work for real, and that cannot happen until he truly forgives her; which will not happen unless she accepts full and total responsibility for the damage that she did to their marriage, and the hurt that she caused him. Up until now he has not done anything wrong, but if he just goes through the motions without really giving her a change to earn his forgiveness, he is doing both of them a disservice.

 

THese are excellent points and they deserve attention, hopefully in MC.

 

If he never truly forgave her and she feels punished every day, yeah....that will not bode well for a future together.

 

If he should decide he needs to meet and speak with the xOM, well then SHE should do everything in her power to precipitate that convesation.

[Silly_Girl]

The more of your experiences I read, Spark, the more I hope you are being treated like an out-and-out Queen in your house. How you didn't bury him under the patio

 

There was a thread on here about whether the BS would want to see the OW for comparison reasons, who looks best etc, I can't help feel the OP's wife has a bit of that because she has so much info from his thread... It would be that, in her shoes, I'd be most interested in.

 

And I think Try has made some really good points and there are some aspects of the situation as portrayed that just don't ring true (to me) but I've not yet put my finger on what they are.

[Summer Breeze]

I completely disagree with the poster who says the BS has no right to talk to the OW. Are we back in the middle ages now when a man gets to tell a woman when to speak and what to say and who she is allowed to talk to? She has the right to do whatever she damn well pleases. As such, I would certainly not try to stop her as that will only serve to make her suspicious. Good luck!

 

I read it quite differently than you did. I read that the BS had the right to talk to the OW no matter what the OW thought. That she was expected to bow to the right of the BS and THAT is what I responded to. As far as a right , apart from the MM/WS, absoluetly.