Consolidated Discussion - Older/younger woman/man and age gap dating

[Criticality]

Did you even read the rest of my post? Please go back and read it, then comment.

 

Trust me, there are plenty of twenty and especially thirty-somethings who can offer maturity, intellectual stimulation, great conversation, and life experience. There are even some who can offer wealth. But I covered that in my post, so like I said, you might want to actually read what I wrote beyond the very first sentence.

 

Thank you yes, I DID read your entire post. And it doesn't change anything I wrote in my reply, which you might want to reply to, instead of making assumptions about my post?

 

Obviously there are guys in their 20ies and 30ies who are mature, yes, but maturity isn't a binary issue. A guy in his thirties can be mature yes, which is exactly why I wrote "maturity and life experiences you can't find in a guy in his twenties and thirties.

 

No matter how mature a thirty year old, a typical forty year old will have experiences he doesn't have.

 

Now tell me, what is it about this that some women, you included, has such a strong reaction to?

 

I wrote that jealousy could be one possible reason (and despite that yes, I read you're not in your forties, but that doesn't mean that you don't speak from a place of bitterness. In this case a more general bitterness about opportunities men might have that women of the same age doesn't have, when you reach that age . )

 

So indulge me now... Why is it that women have such a strong reaction to this in your opinion?

[kiss_andmakeup]

Thank you yes, I DID read your entire post. And it doesn't change anything I wrote in my reply, which you might want to reply to, instead of making assumptions about my post?

 

Obviously there are guys in their 20ies and 30ies who are mature, yes, but maturity isn't a binary issue. A guy in his thirties can be mature yes, which is exactly why I wrote "maturity and life experiences you can't find in a guy in his twenties and thirties.

 

No matter how mature a thirty year old, a typical forty year old will have experiences he doesn't have.

 

Now tell me, what is it about this that some women, you included, has such a strong reaction to?

 

I wrote that jealousy could be one possible reason (and despite that yes, I read you're not in your forties, but that doesn't mean that you don't speak from a place of bitterness. In this case a more general bitterness about opportunities men might have that women of the same age doesn't have, when you reach that age . )

 

So indulge me now... Why is it that women have such a strong reaction to this in your opinion?

 

Did I really respond strongly to it? I wrote an even-keeled response asking lots of questions. Even the OP responded in kind and mentioned that he did not find my post hostile or bitter. I'm not sure exactly why you did.

[Mascara]

 

No matter how mature a thirty year old, a typical forty year old will have experiences he doesn't have

 

The same could be said of the women you avoid dating because of their age? There are VERY many bitter men in their 40s, with divorces and debts and kids. But equally there are many more who are fascinating, with life experiences, whose struggling years are behind them, confident, assured men.

 

And the same is true of women. So, as long as you can avoid the bitter ones, why do you prefer 20-somethings over those women your own age?

[RedRobin]

This is how you view life and the dance between women and men?

 

You have some strong reasons for your negative posts, but this isn't at all healthy.

 

What you and the OP have described isn't a dance.

 

... and your motivations aren't healthy. But that's ok. The women who usually go along with it aren't either. *shrug*

 

A lid for every pot, I guess. But you did ask why there was such a negative reaction by the women, and I answered it.

 

Because most of us who are emotionally healthy think that much older men hitting on us is predatory. It feels as wrong and possibly as big a betrayal as if our actual dads hit on us. That's why.

 

That is the healthy reaction to being hit on by a much older person, IMHO.

[Criticality]

Did I really respond strongly to it? I wrote an even-keeled response asking lots of questions. Even the OP responded in kind and mentioned that he did not find my post hostile or bitter. I'm not sure exactly why you did.

 

Maybe you should read my post, dear? I didn't say YOU hard a strong opinion, I asked why some women (since it was mainly women who reacted negatively) have such a strong opinion? Surely you have some ideas on that?

[RedRobin]

You aren't going to 'overcome' that with a healthy woman... so just don't target healthy ones if you are so hell bent on being with a much younger woman is my advice.

[Criticality]

And the same is true of women. So, as long as you can avoid the bitter ones, why do you prefer 20-somethings over those women your own age?

 

Who says I do? I don't really sort women i find attractive based on their age.

 

Among women I find attractive, some are in their twenties, but the reason I find them attractive are the same reason I find women in their thirties attractive.

[kiss_andmakeup]

Maybe you should read my post, dear? I didn't say YOU hard a strong opinion, I asked why some women (since it was mainly women who reacted negatively) have such a strong opinion? Surely you have some ideas on that?

 

I can't speak for the other women...maybe you should ask them. If I had to assume, I'd say it's probably insulting. It sends a message that women aren't appealing any more once they're out of their sex-object years. It's sad that there are men out there who feel that way, but unfortunately, it's life. Not much anyone can do about it, other than try to weed those people out, and find someone who loves them for all the right reasons.

[Mascara]

This isn't addressed to anyone in particular, but I just want to explain why women are disappointed when men express a preference for much younger women... even when we fall into their preferred age group (eg, kissandmakeup on this thread probably falls into the preferred range of many of the guys posting here)

 

When you're 15/16/17/18, your peers are the same age, or within a few years of it. Sure, you'll get an 18 year old dating a 30 year old, but mostly teenagers hang out with teenagers. We listened to the same music, watched the same TV shows, got involved in the same protests. We talked and put the world to rights over mostly illegal parties when parents were out.

 

People my age will remember watching in amazement as the Berlin Wall fell. We remember the very real fear of nuclear war. We remember the ridiculous hair cuts and fashions. We have nostalgia when a song from our era comes on the radio.

 

We spent hours, endless days, talking, sharing and growing up with our peers. We all hated our parents at the same age. The boys had crushes on us, and vice versa.

 

And then, 20 years later... you're saying none of that matters. You'd rather be with someone who wasn't even alive when the Wall came down.

 

And that's why it disappoints us. It's essentially saying you place no value on a shared past and a common history. When a 60 year old guy hits on me, I don't feel flattered. I wonder why he doesn't want to share his life with a woman who might have gone on the same Vietnam demonstrations as him, or who also went to Woodstock.

 

It took me a long time to appreciate men my own age - I've said before, I was one of those 20 somethings who went for 40 year olds - but my eyes have been opened.

 

I want to date someone who remembers playing Hungry Hippos, not someone who just bought it for their kids.

[Criticality]

And the same is true of women. So, as long as you can avoid the bitter ones, why do you prefer 20-somethings over those women your own age?

 

While I tend not to sort attractive women age-wise, when I was in my twenties, one thing I found very attractive in women who life-experience.

 

So I often found myself gravitating to women who'd have those fine lines in their face that appear once you cross thirty, or the occasional stray grey hair women sometimes get when they don't color their hair.

 

There doesn't have to be reason and logic in attraction, sex and love. Often there isn't. Which is why some forty year old men end up with a younger women, and why plenty of twenty something women find older men attractive rather than "icky" or weird. Not all twenty year old women, mind you. But enough to make it fairly normal.

[Mascara]

Who says I do? I don't really sort women i find attractive based on their age.

 

Among women I find attractive, some are in their twenties, but the reason I find them attractive are the same reason I find women in their thirties attractive.

 

Apologies, think I got you mixed up with someone else.

[theothersully]

I dated a slightly older woman in my 20's and it was fantastic, thinking back on that. Fell soooo hard for her.

 

But Mascara... I live in the present (and possibly a bit of a timeless state). I discuss current and future things with people I date, no matter who or what age they are. I forgot about the berlin wall or hungry hungry hippos... ha ha ha But, I tend to discuss current events and timeless events. Weird, out there stuff... lol.

[Criticality]

I can't speak for the other women...maybe you should ask them. If I had to assume, I'd say it's probably insulting. It sends a message that women aren't appealing any more once they're out of their sex-object years.

 

So in other words, it comes from a place of bitterness, jealousy and disappointment with getting older?

 

Doesn't sound like a particularly healthy place to approach the subject from. Maybe they should work on their own issues instead of raging about who other women are dating?

[theothersully]

Also to Mascara... This is an edit to the last post....

 

 

Funny things do pop up though.

 

I've been snowboarding since well before some of my dates have been born so that gets a little weird to answer... ha ha ha

[Mascara]

I'm not talking about discussing stuff. I'm talking about the value of a shared past. Your peers and contemporaries were the most important and attractive people in your life at one point. And now they're not.

[theothersully]

So in other words, it comes from a place of bitterness, jealousy and disappointment with getting older?

 

Doesn't sound like a particularly healthy place to approach the subject from. Maybe they should work on their own issues instead of raging about who other women are dating?

 

And i distinctly remember in the beginning of this thread, someone said the op was all used up, was too old, would be alone, can't possibly look good etc.... I wonder if that was displaced anger.

[kiss_andmakeup]

So in other words, it comes from a place of bitterness, jealousy and disappointment with getting older?

 

Doesn't sound like a particularly healthy place to approach the subject from. Maybe they should work on their own issues instead of raging about who other women are dating?

 

I don't think so. If women were lamenting that men in their 20's no longer had interest in them past 40, then I would agree with you that they are obviously having problems with the realities of aging. But when men your own age discriminate against you based solely on your (shared) age, I don't think having a negative reaction to that is bitter...I think that's justified.

 

But I'd refer you to Mascara's post on this topic, as she stated it far more eloquently than I have, and is speaking from a place of experience:

 

This isn't addressed to anyone in particular, but I just want to explain why women are disappointed when men express a preference for much younger women... even when we fall into their preferred age group (eg, kissandmakeup on this thread probably falls into the preferred range of many of the guys posting here)

 

When you're 15/16/17/18, your peers are the same age, or within a few years of it. Sure, you'll get an 18 year old dating a 30 year old, but mostly teenagers hang out with teenagers. We listened to the same music, watched the same TV shows, got involved in the same protests. We talked and put the world to rights over mostly illegal parties when parents were out.

 

People my age will remember watching in amazement as the Berlin Wall fell. We remember the very real fear of nuclear war. We remember the ridiculous hair cuts and fashions. We have nostalgia when a song from our era comes on the radio.

 

We spent hours, endless days, talking, sharing and growing up with our peers. We all hated our parents at the same age. The boys had crushes on us, and vice versa.

 

And then, 20 years later... you're saying none of that matters. You'd rather be with someone who wasn't even alive when the Wall came down.

 

And that's why it disappoints us. It's essentially saying you place no value on a shared past and a common history. When a 60 year old guy hits on me, I don't feel flattered. I wonder why he doesn't want to share his life with a woman who might have gone on the same Vietnam demonstrations as him, or who also went to Woodstock.

 

It took me a long time to appreciate men my own age - I've said before, I was one of those 20 somethings who went for 40 year olds - but my eyes have been opened.

 

I want to date someone who remembers playing Hungry Hippos, not someone who just bought it for their kids.

Edited October 18, 2013 by kiss_andmakeup

[theothersully]

I'm not talking about discussing stuff. I'm talking about the value of a shared past. Your peers and contemporaries were the most important and attractive people in your life at one point. And now they're not.

 

This is true. In my personal case, I will be the first to admit this is immaturity on my part. I am not as mature of a person as most of my peers. I live for fun. I embrace that and honor it, but my peers are typically quite boring and loaded with baggage... be it kids or 20 extra lbs they are hauling around.

 

They moved to a different stage of life. I' having been married to a woman 10 years younger than me for 10 years (12 year relationship), who did not want children, never moved on.

 

I am happy and comfortable in this stage and will continue here until i meet another fun, in shape, out of the ordinary woman to share life's adventures with... no kids.

[Criticality]

I'm not talking about discussing stuff. I'm talking about the value of a shared past. Your peers and contemporaries were the most important and attractive people in your life at one point. And now they're not.

 

But the thing is, is the value of a shared past, really that important?

Sure I get that it CAN be important, but its not all.

 

Is it really that important whether you were ten when the Berlin wall came down, or if you're ten years older, and voted for Reagan? Despite the age difference being only ten years, there was a world of difference between being a teenager in the 80ies and the 90ies.

 

People of the same age often don't have much of a shared past anyways. Society is very fragmented in that regard. A forty year old who grew up in New York in a upper middle class family has a very different "past" than the forty year old who grew up poor in Kansas or Detroit.

 

What past and shared history you have also wildly depends on what interest you had, what circles you ran in and obviously what country you grew up in

[Criticality]

I don't think so. If women were lamenting that men in their 20's no longer had interest in them past 40, then I would agree with you that they are obviously having problems with the realities of aging. But when men your own age discriminate against you based solely on your (shared) age, I don't think having a negative reaction to that is bitter...I think that's justified.

 

Just the fact that there's little outrage when forty year old women have boyfriends in their twenties, but au contrarie, lots of encouragement and giddy talk about "cougars" kinda seems to indicate the opposite though.

[Mascara]

I'm not talking about the specifics, although I did give some. Those were just to illustrate the fact that 25 years ago, you and I (the "you" being 40 year old guys only wanting 25 year olds).... you and I spent our teen years sharing, laughing, growing up, experiencing things, along with everyone else in our high school group. And now you think you have more in common with someone you could have babysat.

 

I'm just explaining why we don't get it. We thought each other was amazing 25 years ago.

[RedRobin]

Just the fact that there's little outrage when forty year old women have boyfriends in their twenties, but au contrarie, lots of encouragement and giddy talk about "cougars" kinda seems to indicate the opposite though.

 

There would be just as much outrage if 20 something young men were routinely getting hit on by their 45+ year old doctors, employers, and professors.

 

... the fact that a word exists for when women do it... and a word doesn't exist for when men do it shows how rare it actually is.

[kiss_andmakeup]

Just the fact that there's little outrage when forty year old women have boyfriends in their twenties, but au contrarie, lots of encouragement and giddy talk about "cougars" kinda seems to indicate the opposite though.

 

As is the case with any challenge to the status quo. Men have dated and married much younger women for centuries. The "cougar" phenomenon has only cropped up in the last couple of decades as a challenge to the "norm," and therefore I think people are more likely to support it.

 

In a way it reminds me of weight politics. It's socially unacceptable to pick on someone for being fat. I'd never go up to a random person at the store and say "Oh my god, you're so big! You really need to stop eating so much." If I did, I'd be thrown out of the store! But I can't tell you how many times some random person has said to me, "Oh my god, you're so tiny! You need to eat something!" This particular topic was on my mind because there's a thread about it in the Physical Fitness section that I just responded to. But my point was that any time there's a new "movement," where a group of people are trying to "fight the norm" (i.e. cougars trying to dissolve the age stereotype, overweight people trying to change the thin=attractive stereotype), their "struggle" is viewed as noble, whereas the group that's had the "upper hand" for centuries is viewed as the "bad guys."

 

Essentially, there still seem to be far more older men who date younger women than vice-versa. As long as that is the case, the cougar thing will always be a "you go girl!" type of discussion.

 

For the record, I hold both women and men who date much younger people in the same place in my mind. And that is a place of, "whatever floats your boat, that's cool! But I probably won't date you."

Edited October 18, 2013 by kiss_andmakeup

[Mascara]

 

For the record, I hold both women and men who date much younger people in the same place in my mind.

 

Me too, and I've certainly posted before when it's a topic about older women / younger men. So I'm not quite sure where the idea came from that we somehow find that acceptable but not older men/ younger women.

[Criticality]

Well Mascara, you do have a point about a shared past being important.

Or should I say, it can be important.

 

However, I can't help but think that's just like some forty and fifty year old bachelors exclusively date women in their twenties because of a misplaced chase of eternal youth (and chase for younger, firmer bodies).

 

But age will catch up with them regardless, and they'll never be really happy unless they accept their age.

 

The strong dislike against it however, at least in some cases, come from that same place of hesitation to accept that you're not how old you wish you were.

 

And in neither case, is it a healthy or fulfilling reaction.