Roles and Labels

[donnamaybe]

I think what the OP meant was that she feels there are some who act almost as if they'd prefer to be in a parade waving a flag that says "OW and PROUD OF IT!"

[Silly_Girl]

Donna, I think perhaps that's your translated version.

[Summer Breeze]

I think what the OP meant was that she feels there are some who act almost as if they'd prefer to be in a parade waving a flag that says "OW and PROUD OF IT!"

 

And I pointed out that was what was at the crux of starting this thread. It wasn't about titles it was about OW using the title. If that was the case then maybe that should have been what it was all about. I was a BS and I have certain feelings about BS who reconcile. I couldn't imagine running around waving that banner any more than the OW banner. That doesn't mean I don't respect some of the people who have truly reconciled.

[MissBee]

I think what the OP meant was that she feels there are some who act almost as if they'd prefer to be in a parade waving a flag that says "OW and PROUD OF IT!"

 

That's what I gathered as well...

 

I was reading some threads back about unapologetic OW titles and reformed OW titles...and to me those 2 are very strange things that seem to speak to an overall ideology versus a specific situation or label for the sake of conversation in a forum. I was an OW at one point and now I am not and don't plan on being again, but while I was, I never considered myself to be an unapologetic OW, shoot, I wasn't even on any forums regarding that situation, so never thought about the label of OW much and I never viewed myself in that light IRL either, it was what it was but I never really thought about it in those terms. Now that it's done I don't consider myself "reformed" either, as those classifications and adjectives seem to speak to a philosophy or ideology attached to the OW role versus just a label for sake of conversation. I think if someone had come up to me to ask how I felt about xyz as an OW or how I feel now as a former/reformed OW lol, I would be taken aback, as it's not something I readily identify with whereas I do think some people may readily embrace it as an identity and lifestyle choice. I am a woman...that is a necessary label; describing myself as a pretty woman, stubborn woman, prudent woman etc. is more descriptive of how I view myself and my orientation towards the world and that role, while the former is merely a label/identifier because it needs to exist. I have other labels that I am attached to that describe me and my ideologies and orientation in the world, and speak on behalf of, that wasn't one though.

 

I may be wrong but that is what I gathered from Chaucer's question; the interest in that type of orientation towards the role or label.

 

Maybe she can clear up whether or not that was what she was referring to

Edited July 22, 2011 by MissBee

[jwi71]

I didnt fully or completely express what I was trying to say. That's on me.

 

I disagree. I think there are many "liked" labels that people will assign to others that they do not care to have assigned to them.

 

Interesting. I can't think of a "liked" label that one assigns to another that they themselves would object to. Do you have an example?

 

Many can be judged by their physical appearance and while may be pleasing to the eye do not care to have others or to define themselves by such.

 

I can see your point here. The only issue I have is its hard to earn/choose physical appearance. You are born that way. And while one may find someone gorgeous another may find the same person average. Too subjective physical beauty - I can understand where you are going I just don't think it fits precisely because no one "earns" their physical appearance and "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

 

I do know many "champions" who have excelled in business, sports, etc who are quite humble about their successes and don't wear them like a billboard

 

As do I. But what I meant to convey was these people, while not actively advertising, don't actively hide or act otherwise ashamed or embarrassed of it either. Because this is the OW/OM forum, I have yet to meet anyone who proudly wears OW/OM or WS.

 

I think the truly great people are the ones that understand they are a complex being made up of many different attributes, experiences, etc and so do not wear labels good and bad. They are them, they do what they do, and find a peace in just being them. They are comfortable enough in their skin and identity to not need to define themselves or be defined by others.

 

There are very people - or rather few people I have met - who subscribe to this. People, and the reasons vary, DO promote some labels over others. Like I was trying to say, you ARE defined by the labels you earn.

 

Why?

 

For me, they are the result of ACTIONS (and often words as well) which can be overtly measured (seen) and done so with forethought and planning. Its hard to accidentally earn a PhD or be a captain of industry or accidentally win Wimbledon. All labels are earned and a great many require planning and desire. You have to want to win Wimbledon, then train to have the shot of that label. I cannot think of any label that one earns accidentally.

 

That was what I was trying to say. We EARN labels - whether you want it or not, flaunt it or not is immaterial - the desire and words and actions EARN them. So...earn wisely.

 

I also believe that one never loses a label because we cannot undo whatever the actions/words done to earn it. Like it or not, the label sticks. Some are proudly displayed, others swept under the rug. So earn carefully.

[Memphis Raines]

Is having affairs with married people, or having extramarital affairs while married the absolutely defining feature of some peoples' identities?

 

absolutely

[fooled once]

Regarding bolded. That really is what this thread boils down to. It really isn't any label other than OW that it bothers you when people use. That's my perception from what you've written. This last paragraph says it all TO ME. If someone is in here speaking from experience as an OW is there a statute of limitations before she has to leave or 'rebrand' herself? If that's the case some of the longstanding fBS might face the same? Or is it important to have all sides noted and in discussions therfore they all are welcome? We could have people who have been reconciled or left their OM for 2 years stop using a label but who polices what reconciled is? Who polices when an OW has left the A and not just the MM?

 

As I said I'm gleaning this from your posts and if I'm way off base then I apologize now but it is what I have taken from it.

 

Now in a personal response. I've been divorced for a number of years but I'm still Mrs. I call myself that on forms and documents. In my real life it rarely comes into play. In here there are times when I'm a fBS and times when I'm a fOW. It depends on the conversation and sometimes I'm both.

 

As SG said, and others agreed with, I'm that in here. I never have been called any of those things till I came in here but I see where it's necessary to try and see points of view. There are so many former this and current that who have very different pov from me. Sometimes I'm amazed some of the viewpoints coming from one label or the other and it fascinates to see that such different views can come from the same 'camps'.

 

I'm Summer Breeze in here and I'm Mom when I'm with my son. I got more labels than I know what to do with!

 

SB, I was an OW many many years ago, but I will not refer to myself as an OW. Some here have liked to throw around labels for others which are meant to demean and belittle their views/thoughts. Just because I am not a current OW doesn't mean I do not understand or grasp the feelings in an affair. I have never been a BS; but that doesn't mean I can't empathize with what a BS goes through. Some use titles here to discredit posters; some use it as a flag waving to say "look at me - I made it to Mrs after OW". Some posters don't want to hear from anyone except 'like labeled' people.

 

Personally, I like all views, no matter the experience. I am a stepmom so I can relate to posts on LS regarding step life. I am a mom of an only child, so I can relate to parenting posts. I am divorced from my son's father, so I can relate to issues regarding divorce. I am happily remarried so I can relate to posts about love. I don't have any animals currently, but I had some when I was younger, so I guess I can still talk about pets

 

I took the post the same way that Donna and MissBee did -

I think what the OP meant was that she feels there are some who act almost as if they'd prefer to be in a parade waving a flag that says "OW and PROUD OF IT!"

[Summer Breeze]

SB, I was an OW many many years ago, but I will not refer to myself as an OW. Some here have liked to throw around labels for others which are meant to demean and belittle their views/thoughts. Just because I am not a current OW doesn't mean I do not understand or grasp the feelings in an affair. I have never been a BS; but that doesn't mean I can't empathize with what a BS goes through. Some use titles here to discredit posters; some use it as a flag waving to say "look at me - I made it to Mrs after OW". Some posters don't want to hear from anyone except 'like labeled' people.

 

Personally, I like all views, no matter the experience. I am a stepmom so I can relate to posts on LS regarding step life. I am a mom of an only child, so I can relate to parenting posts. I am divorced from my son's father, so I can relate to issues regarding divorce. I am happily remarried so I can relate to posts about love. I don't have any animals currently, but I had some when I was younger, so I guess I can still talk about pets

 

I took the post the same way that Donna and MissBee did -

 

Ok so you don't like titles and you don't use them. That's great for you. I don't happen to mind. I'm a mom and there were a good few years I was more of a mom than any other title. Then the child grew up and I became less of a mom and more of my professional title. Then I was with a gent in the same profession and when we worked together I was his partner. Titles change and shift and I'm fine with that. Not one title I have defines me and none ever have.

 

You guys read the posts as you wish. The OP said one thing but in the thread the OP made it evident what irritated her. If that was the case that's what the original post should have said. It should have been about OW who use the title and 'wave it around'. Not an arbitrary blanket of all titles from everyone.

 

Enough of the TJ from me! Sorry for that OP!

[Got it]

 

 

As do I. But what I meant to convey was these people, while not actively advertising, don't actively hide or act otherwise ashamed or embarrassed of it either. Because this is the OW/OM forum, I have yet to meet anyone who proudly wears OW/OM or WS.

 

 

 

There are very people - or rather few people I have met - who subscribe to this. People, and the reasons vary, DO promote some labels over others. Like I was trying to say, you ARE defined by the labels you earn.

 

.

 

I guess my first question is how many OP or WS have you met? I can't say that I go around "bragging" about it but I am not ashamed of it either. I am not one to go around bragging about anything, I don't "tout" my posiiton in my company, I don't brag about things I have or have earned, I guess I don't talk much about myself. But your first statement and then follow up statement don't match. One can cannot actively hide or be ashamed of something but also not go around "proudly" displaying a title. One really has nothing to do with the other. One can be neutral on it. I am vegatarian, I don't go around bragging about it. I will mention it if needed but isn't something that I feel needs to be done.

 

Along the same lines, if a conversation is taking place that would need or be enhanced or impacted by the mention of my OW status I will mention it. It really needs to be privy to the conversation at hand and that does not come up very often.

 

Not all OP hide their relationship status. I may mention my boyfriend but I do mention if he is married/seperated/single. To me, one does not have anything to do with the other. Again if said knowledge is needed I will add it.

 

While you may be identified by the labels you "earn" there are many labels, said labels vary by society and culture and not always fairly assessed or earned. It wasn't that long ago that a divorced woman would be considered a whore.

 

If we are defined by the labels we earn, than we are the sum of all the labels, and for many, that is a very vast list. The weight of said labels is subjective and open to opinion.

 

I may weigh heavily the fact I do not eat meat, as it is a "label" that carries a lot of weight for me, does not mean that "you" find that to be very important or noteworthy. For me, it is a matter of distinction, for "you", it is a passing mention.

[Got it]

Ok so you don't like titles and you don't use them. That's great for you. I don't happen to mind. I'm a mom and there were a good few years I was more of a mom than any other title. Then the child grew up and I became less of a mom and more of my professional title. Then I was with a gent in the same profession and when we worked together I was his partner. Titles change and shift and I'm fine with that. Not one title I have defines me and none ever have.

 

 

Enough of the TJ from me! Sorry for that OP!

 

Sorry for a continuing t/j, but I first read this as you were a mom, then you were more your professional title, then I read that you were a gent . . .

 

I was going to say, that is a lot of labels!

[Silly_Girl]

Sorry for a continuing t/j, but I first read this as you were a mom, then you were more your professional title, then I read that you were a gent . . .

 

I was going to say, that is a lot of labels!

 

Could have been LS's first genuine Other Man/Woman!?!

 

(I'm sorry too)

[jwi71]

I guess my first question is how many OP or WS have you met?

 

Why?

Why does it matter? Is a certain number going to make my view more or less relevant? What is that number? How did you arrive at it?

 

I have known several in my life...three I absolutely know of. Maybe others...if so, they haven't shared it with me.

 

I can't say that I go around "bragging" about it but I am not ashamed of it either. I am not one to go around bragging about anything, I don't "tout" my posiiton in my company, I don't brag about things I have or have earned, I guess I don't talk much about myself.

 

There is a difference between bragging/touting and being PROUD of one's own accomplishments. I'm not sure calling one's parents to excitedly tell them of your recent promotion to VP is bragging. And, to bring the conversation back towards OW/OM...I wonder how many people call home to say their new BF is married with kids? In fact, going by various online forums...the number is close to zero. I'll follow up on this below...

 

But your first statement and then follow up statement don't match. One can cannot actively hide or be ashamed of something but also not go around "proudly" displaying a title. One really has nothing to do with the other.

 

...like now

 

That's not what I said.

 

I said some people may not actively advertise a label but not actively hide it either. The two are not mutually exclusive. One may be a PhD and simultaneously not tout it nor hide it. I can certainly think of people like that - who have accomplished much, speak little of it, yet not deny it when asked.

 

Along the same lines, if a conversation is taking place that would need or be enhanced or impacted by the mention of my OW status I will mention it. It really needs to be privy to the conversation at hand and that does not come up very often.

 

You would be one of the few who tell to others your M began with you as his mistress - and one of the even rarely still group that admits to everything, good and bad, you have done. Because otherwise, you are valuing some labels as good and others as bad - hiding some and promoting (accepting) others. Which is my point - be careful of the labels we earn.

 

Not all OP hide their relationship status. I may mention my boyfriend but I do mention if he is married/seperated/single. To me, one does not have anything to do with the other. Again if said knowledge is needed I will add it

.

 

But you DO hide it - unless you have now and since day one, been honest that he was M before you two got M. And that means, in my world, that you are placing one label (GF) over and above of an equal label (as OW). Which almost seems to be, in action, saying what I have been - we all wear labels, we hide the ones we don't like and promote the ones we do.

 

While you may be identified by the labels you "earn" there are many labels, said labels vary by society and culture and not always fairly assessed or earned. It wasn't that long ago that a divorced woman would be considered a whore.

 

Correct. Some labels are have different weights based on culture. But, in all my worldly travels...I have NEVER found a society or culture where adultery is acceptable. The closest was Japan - and even then its as an "open secret".

What societies or cultures exist where cheating is viewed as acceptable?

 

If we are defined by the labels we earn, than we are the sum of all the labels, and for many, that is a very vast list. The weight of said labels is subjective and open to opinion.

 

I already said that.

The better question is why.

Why promote yourself as GF when you could equally and just as honestly promote yourself as mistress? (Im guessing from your post your BF is M). Why hide one label but not another?

 

Lets face it, labels define us and the world we live in. Its simple and basic human nature. Be careful of the labels one earns.

[RepairMinded]

Saying "why do people use labels" is generally only an issue for people who don't want to be held accountable for what they've done in their lives.

 

"Labels" help us to identify that which is labeled. So obviously people who know they have done something wrong don't want to be "labeled" as that.

 

Why do we have "labels" on medicine bottles? "Labels" are useless, aren't they?

[Got it]

Why?

Why does it matter? Is a certain number going to make my view more or less relevant? What is that number? How did you arrive at it?

 

I have known several in my life...three I absolutely know of. Maybe others...if so, they haven't shared it with me.

 

 

 

There is a difference between bragging/touting and being PROUD of one's own accomplishments. I'm not sure calling one's parents to excitedly tell them of your recent promotion to VP is bragging. And, to bring the conversation back towards OW/OM...I wonder how many people call home to say their new BF is married with kids? In fact, going by various online forums...the number is close to zero. I'll follow up on this below...

 

 

 

...like now

 

That's not what I said.

 

I said some people may not actively advertise a label but not actively hide it either. The two are not mutually exclusive. One may be a PhD and simultaneously not tout it nor hide it. I can certainly think of people like that - who have accomplished much, speak little of it, yet not deny it when asked.

 

 

 

You would be one of the few who tell to others your M began with you as his mistress - and one of the even rarely still group that admits to everything, good and bad, you have done. Because otherwise, you are valuing some labels as good and others as bad - hiding some and promoting (accepting) others. Which is my point - be careful of the labels we earn.

 

.

 

But you DO hide it - unless you have now and since day one, been honest that he was M before you two got M. And that means, in my world, that you are placing one label (GF) over and above of an equal label (as OW). Which almost seems to be, in action, saying what I have been - we all wear labels, we hide the ones we don't like and promote the ones we do.

 

 

 

Correct. Some labels are have different weights based on culture. But, in all my worldly travels...I have NEVER found a society or culture where adultery is acceptable. The closest was Japan - and even then its as an "open secret".

What societies or cultures exist where cheating is viewed as acceptable?

 

 

 

I already said that.

The better question is why.

Why promote yourself as GF when you could equally and just as honestly promote yourself as mistress? (Im guessing from your post your BF is M). Why hide one label but not another?

 

Lets face it, labels define us and the world we live in. Its simple and basic human nature. Be careful of the labels one earns.

 

Why would I go around expliciting telling people whomever crosses our path that he was a MP? Do you air personal information that freely?

 

Do my parents know? Yes they do. Do my siblings know? Yes they do. He being married was his baby to rock, not mine, so I had no reason to hide it.

 

And I don't promote myself either way though, I guess this would come up next, how long does one wear a label, I would technically be the GF and not the mistress.

 

Though we do joke with each other how "his mistress would do something" or "my MM would do something" that boring ole us now doesn't. Sometimes the mistress had things MUCH better.

[Got it]

Saying "why do people use labels" is generally only an issue for people who don't want to be held accountable for what they've done in their lives.

 

"Labels" help us to identify that which is labeled. So obviously people who know they have done something wrong don't want to be "labeled" as that.

 

Why do we have "labels" on medicine bottles? "Labels" are useless, aren't they?

 

Um . . . you know you are going with a different definition of the word label. It does have multiple meanings . . .

[OWoman]

I wonder how many people call home to say their new BF is married with kids? In fact, going by various online forums...the number is close to zero.

 

I don't know many (or any!) people who phone "home" (uh, isn't "home" where they live? Why phone if they're already there?) to say they have a new BF. I know some people who may call a GF of GBF to tell them about the hot piece of stuff they just met or the wonderful date they just went on - in which case, yes, they'd mention all pertinent factors, and M and kids would be in there.

 

OTOH, if they were quizzed by, say, their mother phoning up to check in, how much or how little they revealed would depend on the nature of the R with their parent, not necessarily on the nature of the R with their BF. I, for example, would never discuss anything about any of my Rs with my parents, because that isn't the kind of R we have (both times, they only met my H and heard we were M after the event.) But my friend C who has a different R with her parents has openly told them, when asked about him, that her new BF has a W (no kids), in the same breath that she told them where he lives and what he does. She's no more ashamed of it than she is proud. It's simply part of the package, as is his gender, his age and his occupation.

 

 

You would be one of the few who tell to others your M began with you as his mistress

 

My H and I are very open about our beginnings. We've never had anyone judge us for that. OTC, it's always received as a story of love over adversity, a kind of tale of courtly love from a legendary era. People find it sweet, romantic, touching. No one has ever reacted with shock, horror or distaste.

 

(And no, I don't tell anyone I was his mistress, because I wasn't. I have never been and will never be a mistress. I was an OW, and am not ashamed of that fact - though if someone refers to me as a mistress I am always quick to correct them!)

 

 

But, in all my worldly travels...I have NEVER found a society or culture where adultery is acceptable. The closest was Japan - and even then its as an "open secret".

What societies or cultures exist where cheating is viewed as acceptable?

 

Acceptable to whom? And accepted by whom?

 

Back home, in some of the cultures there, it is perfectly acceptable (and almost universally practiced) among the men to have GFs as well as Ws. It is accepted - although not welcomed - by the women as "the way it is". It is less socially acceptable (to both genders) for women to have multiple BFs or Hs and BFs, but among women with resources, status and power, it happens too. That may have its roots in some patriarchal notion of the role of women and the rights of men (polygamy is also legal) and many westerners may dislike and criticise it, but unless it is seriously challenged from within, the practice is unlikely to change.

[RepairMinded]

Um . . . you know you are going with a different definition of the word label. It does have multiple meanings . . .

 

No I'm not using a different definition. Not at all.

 

Labels are a way of grouping or categorizing, a summary description of what's being grouped or categorized.

 

If someone has a history of cheating, we can label them "a cheater." Sorry if they don't like that label. Just like the label with a skull and crossbones on cyanide.

[Got it]

Okay . . . yes in that sense I guess you can say they are the same. But I would argue that a person who cheats, a cheater, is more than that label correct?

 

But yes, both are descriptive terms of an object.

 

Does the "history of cheating" matter? That seems to imply more than one? What if they are currently doing so. I am assuming you are meaning if one cheats, has cheated or planning on cheating then they are a cheater. Correct?

[Silly_Girl]

Most people have 'cheated' at one time or another. Board game, eating something and pretending they haven't when on a diet, lying about how much something cost, not giving back change when the shop assistant gives back too much. Maybe we're all cheaters.

[Memphis Raines]

Saying "why do people use labels" is generally only an issue for people who don't want to be held accountable for what they've done in their lives.

 

nicely said

[Memphis Raines]

Most people have 'cheated' at one time or another.

 

so I suppose if most people have done drugs, I should too?

[piscis]

Let's see....the past roles helped to shape who I am today.

• I am the child of a parent who was an alcoholic.
  
• I am a recovering abuser.
  
• I had an abortion.
  
• I lost two children.
  
• I am the relative of more than one murder victim.
  
• I am a survivor of major natural disasters.
  
• I am a survivor of suicide attempts.
  
• I am a living with depression and other life long illnesses.
  
• I am the child of parent who died of cancer.
  
• I am a fBS.
  
• I was emotionally and mentally abused by the person I love more than anyone in the world.
  

No of these things define me. But they all shaped me. I am not ashamed, embarrassed or in denial that these things make me the absolutely fabulous person I am today. While I do recognise some people don't want to look back at where they have been, I am not one of them. Forgetting the past means I will end up revisiting it and that isn't an option.

 

 

Great post bentnotbroken I specially liked the part where you wisley say "they do not define you, they all shaped me"

It is so true.

As I see it, I am the awful OW for a BS and from where she sees me I might not deserve happines and of course she will never de fond to me but I am also someone's best friend, someone's daughter.

We are not victims neither victimizers we are just people making decisions, some are great decisions some are not but we are learning as we travel through our own path

[whichwayisup]

Most people have 'cheated' at one time or another. Board game, eating something and pretending they haven't when on a diet, lying about how much something cost, not giving back change when the shop assistant gives back too much. Maybe we're all cheaters.

 

You can't compare 'cheating' in the sense of a board game, white lying about weight or age TO cheating in an affair when it out right HURTS innocent people.

 

Apples and strawberries!!

[Glinda]

We are not victims neither victimizers we are just people making decisions, some are great decisions some are not but we are learning as we travel through our own path

I disagree. You are knowingly hurting someone else while on your 'path.' You know this, and you continue to do it. You are indeed victimizing someone else that may not even know about it.

[Silly_Girl]

so I suppose if most people have done drugs, I should too?

 

 

Why would you say that? The word 'most' signifies a large proportion but not all.