Bf's trip and lack of contact are starting to get to me

[zengirl]

I think this thread is also a classroom example of that women regularly use emotional arguments to come to a conclusion rather than just rational arguments.

 

I don't think this is a men vs. women thing. Some men are very emotional and irrational (they're socialized to be less so, yes, but people are outliers every day). And some women are very rational. I would say my whole issue with the way ES gives out her story and reasons piecemeal is it makes no rational sense to me.

 

If she'd said, "I feel badly in this relationship, based on these things that happened in the past and a general sense that it's not the guy or relationship for me," that'd be rational, and I'd see it as a totally different thread. What happened wasn't rational. The Skype thing this thread is about has nothing to do with any potentially valid reasons for breaking up with this guy from a rational, logical perspective.

 

Besides, most people (male or female) are a mix of logical and emotional reactions anyway. Plenty of men use emotional reactions and try to later rationalize them during a breakup (so do plenty of women). That's normal human behavior.

 

If a woman tells a guy that she has come to a certain conclusion, yet provides an emotional argument to support her conclusion, then most likely the guy will see that as an irrational argument and hence in his eyes as an invalid argument and hence in his eyes he'll see her conclusion as incorrect and if the woman then stands by her conclusion then the guy will most likely think she's (somewhat) crazy.

 

I do agree men are socialized more to not understand the validity of emotional arguments. That doesn't mean they don't DO things for emotional reasons. It just means they don't allow it as justification. Nor do many women, though it's a reasonable difference in socialization.

 

You are right - the overwhelming anxiety that I feel when I start dating anyone is not normal. But, my pattern in the past (pre-LS) has been to slowly relax few months in if there are no major red flags. You haven't seen evidence of this because I didn't really date anyone for long enough in the last few years (until this guy).

 

My plan is to take a couple of months (maybe more) break from dating. Not because I really need much time to get over this break-up - I am pretty much over it already. Just that at present, I can't take anymore anxiety that dating someone new would generate.

 

I think that's a good idea. But I would also add: work on finding out how you can overcome that paralyzing anxiety WHEN it's time to bring dating back in. Your problems will always wait for you. (Everyone's will.)

 

P.S. I will say that I am having an insanely busy week and that I have no time to Skype.

 

That's what I'd go with.

[Audrina]

zengirl,

 

No, you never called me insane. I do respect your opinion (even though I don't always agree with you) and your input in this thread has been valuable. I don't feel as bashed over the head as I do with other posters.

 

You are right - the overwhelming anxiety that I feel when I start dating anyone is not normal. But, my pattern in the past (pre-LS) has been to slowly relax few months in if there are no major red flags. You haven't seen evidence of this because I didn't really date anyone for long enough in the last few years (until this guy).

 

My plan is to take a couple of months (maybe more) break from dating. Not because I really need much time to get over this break-up - I am pretty much over it already. Just that at present, I can't take anymore anxiety that dating someone new would generate. I even think that I got so severely ill with a simple bacteria - points out that the anxiety/stress of what has been happening has taken a toll on my body. As soon as I remove "dating" component from my life, everything else magically falls into place. I function well in just about any other area.

 

P.S. I will say that I am having an insanely busy week and that I have no time to Skype.

 

LOLOL I'm sorry I've only read this thread in bits and pieces but you're breaking up with your boyfriend because he won't Skype with you for 3 hours while he's on vacation?

 

It sounds like you have some growing up to do.

[Eternal Sunshine]

LOLOL I'm sorry I've only read this thread in bits and pieces but you're breaking up with your boyfriend because he won't Skype with you for 3 hours while he's on vacation?

 

It sounds like you have some growing up to do.

 

 

And you have some reading to do......

[wezol]

Skyping for 3 HOURS A DAY while he's on VACATION?!?

 

:facepalm:

 

Skyping 3 hrs a day would drain me in any situation, let alone on vacation.

 

I used to go on yearly snowboarding trips with my dad since before my exW and I even met. The first two years she was like this, wanted to talk for hours every night, etc. After a few years together she finally got over this and anytime I was gone, either for training or on vacation, she didn't EXPECT me to call or text her....which just made it easier to do just that...if that makes any sense. Every time I did, she would be happy that I did, if I didn't, she didn't make a big deal.

[Chocolat]

Hi ES,

 

I've read through this thread... I am not sure where to start. First and foremost, I don't think things are as black and white as you make them out to be. I read your post explaining how the bump at the 2-month mark created an issue for you, but wasn't there also something happening on your side around then... some sort of NSA sex thing on offer or some such? It strikes me that you both had some uncertainty early on and that is normal. Your bf didn't act on it, and neither did you. So my first thought is that I don't quite see why whatever occurred 3 months ago is something to break up over now. I understand you feel he violated your trust by asking for space when he told you things were ostensibly ok, but people are not as cut-and-dried as you seem to want. It was 2 months in, he had some doubts, but he's since resolved them. Yes, the fairybook ideal is that lovers will meet and instantly recognize each other as "the one" and maybe sometimes this happens. But as people get older in particular, they are more likely to be thoughtful and analytical in their approach. They may have doubts. Bottom line is that I don't think your bf did anything so awful then. And I don't really think you think he did, either, or you wouldn't have stuck around for 3 more months.

 

That said, I don't know if you should break up with this guy or not. I have read many of your threads and I don't have a good handle on whether you truly care about him or not. The sense I have is that you tend to see that everything he does is about you. For instance, he didn't ask his brother about Skyping from his apartment because he wasn't interested in speaking with you. Well, that's one possibility, but what about others? Perhaps his brother was out, or didn't want company, or only offered the Skype option at times not convenient to your bf, or... There are many reasons why your bf may not have been able to Skype and most are not related to his feelings about you.

 

I don't think you should break up with your bf because of what he has (or hasn't) done. I honestly don't see anything in what you've posted here or elsewhere that leads me to conclude he is a bad guy. Has he made mistakes? To be sure! But so have you, and what he's done in and of itself is not a deal-breaker, imo. What I don't see is whether you have feelings for him that are not essentially feelings about you. Do you love him for him? Or do you love how he makes you feel (when things are going well) and the idea of a relationship? I get the sense it is the latter more than the former and this may be why you are so sensitive to his actions. If you don't love him for him, which involves wanting the best for him and not just for you, then by all means break up with him.

[zengirl]

The sense I have is that you tend to see that everything he does is about you.

 

I think this is a very good point. Not that the rest of Chocolat's post wasn't good (it was all totally good advice IMO) but this nugget deserves repeating. This is a pattern that increases your anxiety, ES. You read into everything in terms of how it may be about you when likely a good deal of the time, it isn't. (This isn't just with this guy, and it's a common problem among those who have anxiety, particularly in relation to other people.)

[Nexus One]

This sounds like complete and total bullcrap to me. Firstly, it doesn't chime at all with my experience - I hear men talk totally irrationally and emotionally all the time.

 

Yes those guys exist. Doesn't refute the point.

 

Secondly, the kind of separation that you outline between emotion and rationality is partially a fiction built up by Western thinking that has historically relegated 'emotional' to something 'inferior' and 'female'. Brain research (see e.g. the work of Antonio Damasio) shows that emotion is actually very intricately linked with the execution of so called rational decisions.

 

I never said that emotional arguments are inferior to rational arguments. I said that men often perceived emotional arguments as invalid arguments and hence find a conclusion that's (partly) based on emotional arguments to be incorrect. Neither did I say that women are inferior.

 

That being said, I think you're spouting bullsh*t yourself, as Western culture has been the first and largest force to have pushed for female equality in the world. Do you mean Western culture sees the woman as inferior as opposed to Asian culture or Middle Eastern culture? In those cultures women have always been traditionally pushed into a submissive role. Only recently that has been changing slowly due to those cultures copying Western culture.

 

In my opinion I hit a nerve of yours, because you interpreted my post as being misogynist. There was no such motive behind it on my part. I didn't mean to say women think in an inferior way, I meant to say they're more prone to using emotional arguments in their reasoning than men are. That's it.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Nexus One

[Professor X]

I'm glad you broke up with him. You should also break up with this forum really. Like A.O. said, a lot of people who support you here do you a disservice; You should seek professional help.

 

And until you are not stable yourself (mentally) you won't find the right guy - but this has been said many times already.

 

GL.

[Ms. Joolie]

How can I trust anything now? How can I know that there are no other girls, no serious thoughts of breaking up when he gets this distant?

 

Indeed. Hang him. And off with his head!!

 

Hah. ES, your mind has fabricated a wonderful case against him, but this is all at the conclusion of your own snoopings. What would your BF find in your own email? What could he assume from your postings on LoveShack, or your texts with friends if he had the opportunity and desire to snoop? What stories would he come up with about you?

 

You have found what you wanted to find and come to your own conclusions. Of course you won't believe anything he says or any other reality. The reality in your head is loudest. But that doesn't make it the truth either.

 

I think you shot it all down with the snooping. You didn't uncover the truth, you just gave yourself reasons to fabricate stories.

 

And did you really expect him to be totally committed to you and absolutely loyal during the 1st month or two of dating? Come on! At least give the relationship 2-3 months to settle in. Both of you were a bit shady in the beginning. Once you all reach the 6 month mark, THEN both of you should have your head on straight.

 

Take it easy! Breath and relax a little this week. Get on Skype tomorrow with him and, yes, PRETEND like everythings okay. (Because it really, truly is!) Talk things out when he gets back. Don't be hasty. Don't worry about his potential opportunities in Europe. He's with you right now. Just let it be.

 

 

Ugh. It's just the snooping. Your insecurities will never go away because of the snooping.

[torn_curtain]

Hi ES,

 

I've read through this thread... I am not sure where to start. First and foremost, I don't think things are as black and white as you make them out to be. I read your post explaining how the bump at the 2-month mark created an issue for you, but wasn't there also something happening on your side around then... some sort of NSA sex thing on offer or some such? It strikes me that you both had some uncertainty early on and that is normal. Your bf didn't act on it, and neither did you. So my first thought is that I don't quite see why whatever occurred 3 months ago is something to break up over now. I understand you feel he violated your trust by asking for space when he told you things were ostensibly ok, but people are not as cut-and-dried as you seem to want. It was 2 months in, he had some doubts, but he's since resolved them. Yes, the fairybook ideal is that lovers will meet and instantly recognize each other as "the one" and maybe sometimes this happens. But as people get older in particular, they are more likely to be thoughtful and analytical in their approach. They may have doubts. Bottom line is that I don't think your bf did anything so awful then. And I don't really think you think he did, either, or you wouldn't have stuck around for 3 more months.

 

That said, I don't know if you should break up with this guy or not. I have read many of your threads and I don't have a good handle on whether you truly care about him or not. The sense I have is that you tend to see that everything he does is about you. For instance, he didn't ask his brother about Skyping from his apartment because he wasn't interested in speaking with you. Well, that's one possibility, but what about others? Perhaps his brother was out, or didn't want company, or only offered the Skype option at times not convenient to your bf, or... There are many reasons why your bf may not have been able to Skype and most are not related to his feelings about you.

 

I don't think you should break up with your bf because of what he has (or hasn't) done. I honestly don't see anything in what you've posted here or elsewhere that leads me to conclude he is a bad guy. Has he made mistakes? To be sure! But so have you, and what he's done in and of itself is not a deal-breaker, imo. What I don't see is whether you have feelings for him that are not essentially feelings about you. Do you love him for him? Or do you love how he makes you feel (when things are going well) and the idea of a relationship? I get the sense it is the latter more than the former and this may be why you are so sensitive to his actions. If you don't love him for him, which involves wanting the best for him and not just for you, then by all means break up with him.

 

I think it's clear from reading between the lines that ES isn't in love with her boyfriend at this point. Isn't that all that matters? It's not fair to herself or to him to drag this out if the feelings aren't there, at least on her end.

 

I am also a little surprised that many people in this thread don't seem to recognize her boyfriend's untrustworthiness. Let's stick to the facts here:

 

-he suddenly asked for a break early in their relationship after they were exclusive when things seemed to be going smoothly from ES's perspective.

 

-she expressed concern to him that he was doubting their relationship (she was right) and his response was to basically imply that she was being irrational and overly pessimistic. You're right that it's normal to experience doubts early in a relationship but is it normal to flat out lie that you're having doubts when questioned by your partner and to go as far to imply that they're being irrational? I don't think that it is. This suggests to me that he's not only deceitful but cowardly and unassertive.

 

-he put on a show for her of bawling at her doorstep when she wanted to call things off meanwhile telling his friend that he was leaning towards breaking up with her. That's about as manipulative as it gets.

 

Again, I feel like people are letting their annoyance at ES's problems excuse her boyfriend's flaws. I think we need to separate the two in order to give her the best advice.

[torn_curtain]

Indeed. Hang him. And off with his head!!

 

Hah. ES, your mind has fabricated a wonderful case against him, but this is all at the conclusion of your own snoopings. What would your BF find in your own email? What could he assume from your postings on LoveShack, or your texts with friends if he had the opportunity and desire to snoop? What stories would he come up with about you?

 

 

Why should ES factor in her own issues when deciding whether to stay with her boyfriend? Should someone who is flawed accept much worse treatment from a partner because that's all that they deserve? I'm just not getting the logic here. To stay with him would be unhealthy and only exacerbate her own issues.

 

It's one thing to say people should accept from a partner what they bring to the table in terms of wants rather than needs...like an overweight woman can't expect her partner to be in stellar shape. But this logic breaks down when you're talking about basic needs that any person requires. Should somebody who is verbally abusive accept physical abuse from their partner because it's what they deserve? Of course not -- such a relationship would be detrimental to both of them. They should get out of it and sort our their own issues before finding another partner.

Edited July 26, 2011 by torn_curtain

[zengirl]

I think it's clear from reading between the lines that ES isn't in love with her boyfriend at this point. Isn't that all that matters? It's not fair to herself or to him to drag this out if the feelings aren't there, at least on her end.

 

This is fair enough. However this:

 

I am also a little surprised that many people in this thread don't seem to recognize her boyfriend's untrustworthiness. Let's stick to the facts here:

 

-he suddenly asked for a break early in their relationship after they were exclusive when things seemed to be going smoothly from ES's perspective.

 

-she expressed concern to him that he was doubting their relationship (she was right) and his response was to basically imply that she was being irrational and overly pessimistic. You're right that it's normal to experience doubts early in a relationship but is it normal to flat out lie that you're having doubts when questioned by your partner and to go as far to imply that they're being irrational? I don't think that it is. This suggests to me that he's not only deceitful but cowardly and unassertive.

 

-he put on a show for her of bawling at her doorstep when she wanted to call things off meanwhile telling his friend that he was leaning towards breaking up with her. That's about as manipulative as it gets.

 

Again, I feel like people are letting their annoyance at ES's problems excuse her boyfriend's flaws. I think we need to separate the two in order to give her the best advice.

 

is needlessly vilifying him. I don't think either party in this relationship has all that much to be proud of, and in those situations, it's hardly a black and white thing. I don't think her BF was actually trying to manipulate her or be outright deceitful in any of these situations. I simply think he, much like ES, has no idea how to behave in a healthy relationship. But ES won't meet a guy who does and wants to be with her until she's healthy herself.

[Ms. Joolie]

BTW, I really want to thank you, ES, for sharing all the details you do here on LoveShack. These aren't just details, this is your life. I don't ever mean to attack you or be rude, and I apologize if I have crossed the line in any way. I really do wish the best for you, and just want you to choose what makes you happy at this point.

[torn_curtain]

This is fair enough. However this:

 

I simply think he, much like ES, has no idea how to behave in a healthy relationship. But ES won't meet a guy who does and wants to be with her until she's healthy herself.Rachel, Nev

 

I disagree with you on that but the motives behind his behavior don't really matter -- his behavior is hurtful and unhealthy regardless.

[EasyHeart]

Maybe ES could just get a short haircut? That way, her boyfriend won't be attracted to her anymore and he will break up with her.

 

Problem solved.

[zengirl]

I disagree with you on that but the motives behind his behavior don't really matter -- his behavior is hurtful and unhealthy regardless.

 

Well, frankly, so is hers.

 

But there's a vast difference between incidentally hurtful (which I think they both are) and intentionally hurtful, and I just don't get the posts painting this BF as the villain of the piece. It takes two to tango.

 

There are relationships where my advice would be, "This guy's a loser! Lose him, and you'll do better." I just don't think that has much to do with THIS situation.

 

But as you said, I don't really think ES is in love with this guy, and that is perhaps the better reason to break it off. I don't think he sounds any more untrustworthy than she does or like he's particularly shady. Perfect? Absolutely not. Dating material by my standards? Probably not, though I don't know him except through ES's sometimes overly emotional perspective, so hard to say. But none of that is the problem. Her not being in love with him and trusting him (and her not trusting him does not = he's untrustworthy; we only know a small snippet of his overall actions in a relationship with another dysfunctional person, from the POV of that other person; it's just not enough to go on to judge his character, especially since the actions aren't really all that damning---they're much more gray than many issues posted on here) is a legitimate problem I can totally see.

 

ETA!

 

Maybe ES could just get a short haircut? That way, her boyfriend won't be attracted to her anymore and he will break up with her.

 

Problem solved.

 

Haha, this site really is amusing in its array of things to worry about.

Edited July 26, 2011 by zengirl

[Ms. Joolie]

Why should ES factor in her own issues when deciding whether to stay with her boyfriend?

 

I don't know what you are refering to by saying "her own issues".

 

 

Should somebody who is verbally abusive accept physical abuse from their partner because it's what they deserve?

 

Abuse is not in this thread, and I don't get where you are going with that. Sorry.

[Chocolat]

I am also a little surprised that many people in this thread don't seem to recognize her boyfriend's untrustworthiness. Let's stick to the facts here:

 

The problem is that the "facts" of the situation change with each retelling and it's hard to get a handle on what actually transpired. The first time she mentioned the 2-month issue, for instance, it wasn't that she'd seen any emails but that a mutual friend had shown her the texts her bf wrote. In them, her bf mentioned that there were 2 other girls interested in him but that he was committed to seeing what would happen with ES.

 

Again, I feel like people are letting their annoyance at ES's problems excuse her boyfriend's flaws. I think we need to separate the two in order to give her the best advice.

 

I am not annoyed at ES, although I recognize that some here are.

[Ms. Joolie]

I disagree with you on that but the motives behind his behavior don't really matter -- his behavior is hurtful and unhealthy regardless.

 

One could argue that her behavior is hurtful and unhealthy, too. Or one could argue that they are truly in love with each other.

[Eternal Sunshine]

Maybe ES could just get a short haircut? That way, her boyfriend won't be attracted to her anymore and he will break up with her.

 

Problem solved.

 

Funny you should mention that EH. I did cut my hair into a bob few months ago and he LOVED it. He actually prefers shorter hair - so no go there

[torn_curtain]

Well, frankly, so is hers.

 

But there's a vast difference between incidentally hurtful (which I think they both are) and intentionally hurtful, and I just don't get the posts painting this BF as the villain of the piece. It takes two to tango.

 

 

Well, I wasn't painting him as a villain. I don't believe he was intentionally trying to hurt her. Instead I think he is a bit cowardly, needy and unable to assert himself, so he stoops to being deceitful and indirect rather than risk losing somebody because he fears being alone. Whether or not you think any of these traits apply to ES is beside the point. Because they are unhealthy behaviors regardless. Nobody, no matter how flawed, deserves that from a partner.

 

This is the type of logic I don't understand:

 

I don't think he sounds any more untrustworthy than she does or like he's particularly shady.

 

If you think ES is untrustworthy or shady do you really think she would be happiest and healthiest with someone who shares these traits? I'm not saying she is, but I'm trying to understand your reasoning. When people have weaknesses in common they tend to feed off of each other in a relationship.

[torn_curtain]

One could argue that her behavior is hurtful and unhealthy, too. Or one could argue that they are truly in love with each other.

 

*facepalm*

[vsmini]

But he is a trigger.

 

Every man ES has been with has been a "trigger". Every man in the universe has doubts (as do all women) and sometimes get in bad moods or can't be by someone's needy-ass side 24/7. So everyone is going to cause a problem for her.

 

An intimiate relationship in general is a trigger for her. Jaysus.

[torn_curtain]

Imagine an alcoholic woman came on here and was complaining about her boyfriend's alcoholism and their codependent, highly dysfunctional relationship in which they trigger each other's weaknesses. Would you say she should stay with him because she is alcoholic herself so she doesn't deserves a sober partner? Wouldn't the best advice be to dump him and sort out her issues?

[zengirl]

This is the type of logic I don't understand:

 

If you think ES is untrustworthy or shady do you really think she would be happiest and healthiest with someone who shares these traits? I'm not saying she is, but I'm trying to understand your reasoning. When people have weaknesses in common they tend to feed off of each other in a relationship.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying ES is untrustworthy and shady. I think neither she nor her BF really are those things. I think they're both insecure and reacting to each other.

 

And here's the logic: It takes two to tango.

 

The toxicity in this relationship is, IMO, not something you can "pin" on either one via the Blame Game since they are reacting to each other and engaging in bad behavior because of that reaction. It's like a chemical reaction. Neither element is "guilty" in a chemical reaction; it's the combination that creates the effect.

 

Again, I'm not saying they should necessarily stay together. I think the best thing for ES would be to be alone (ETA: Not because the guy is wrong or right but because I don't think she can get to a healthy place in a relationship at this time period, as she says above; good on her to admit that) and get her own house together. But saying "he's the wrong guy" misses the point which is as long as she's an unhealthy person, any relationship dynamic is going to be unhealthy and flawed.

 

ETA2: I find the alcoholic example to be off. Though I would probably be appalled by an alcoholic who showed no signs of recovery and was complaining that they only met fellow alcoholics and then painting those people as the bad guys in the scenario. But I find it a bad comparison because in a sense, the 'drug' that ES and her BF are reacting to is each other. While me stopping drinking might not help anyone else recover, one obviously unhealthy person becoming healthy in a relationship can, on occasion, change the dynamic and other person's reactions.

Edited July 26, 2011 by zengirl