Bf's trip and lack of contact are starting to get to me

[torn_curtain]

Nobody intentionally dates crazy people. I wasn't sure what the point of that little phrase either. Regardless of ES's mental health... she doesn't want to date crazy people either and WAS about to break it off from him.

 

Exactly. I am starting to wonder if some heavy trolling is going on in this thread?

[zengirl]

It seemed like you were more concerned with saving face for giving her misguided advice by calling her an unreliable narrator than you were about giving her support. As for your comment about not dating crazy people, I know you were referring to her boyfriend. I hope I don't have to explain why that particular comment was insensitive.

 

You and I view support differently. I think anything that would ever get ES to actually go to therapy would be the best potential form of support (I'm not saying anything I write could ever get her to help herself, but I'm not ready to stop trying yet, I guess). I assume I'd view your version of support as enabling.

 

Either she's an unreliable narrator or he's crazy. Many people have expressed why the various stories here are cobbled together and make no sense. The only way they make sense is if you introduce rather extreme mental instability, on his part, into it or unreliable POV on her part into it. I don't really care if I was wrong or right. What I do care about is that ES doesn't get all "I knew it!" about this guy because she knew lots of things about this guy. She knew he was awesome, and she knew he sucked, and what the answer is. . . I honestly don't know. Likely he's crazy, unless there's more to the story that's been told. I have been, and will be, wrong about many, many people in my life, particularly people I've only read about on message boards and never met myself through any kind of objective lens. And I'm not particularly ashamed of that. I just don't think it's productive for ES to re-write her story as she has done with so many guys and as I see will happen, rather than seek help.

 

At any rate, your sum up doesn't work because ES didn't just "come here" now. She has patterns. And I see them repeating. And now is the chance for them to not repeat. If someone just came here and shared that text, without the other factors, I would, of course, have a different reaction. But I react with the entire wealth of knowledge that I have, not just to the last thing that happened.

[zengirl]

Nobody intentionally dates crazy people. I wasn't sure what the point of that little phrase either. Regardless of ES's mental health... she doesn't want to date crazy people either and WAS about to break it off from him.

 

Where did I say she wanted to date crazy people? You know, I'm honestly just trying to find a way to believe ES is not lying, because I really don't want her to be a liar. But when I read her posts, that is the Occam's Razor thought that comes to mind. His being crazy is the only other explanation I have.

[torn_curtain]

You and I view support differently. I think anything that would ever get ES to actually go to therapy would be the best potential form of support (I'm not saying anything I write could ever get her to help herself, but I'm not ready to stop trying yet, I guess). I assume I'd view your version of support as enabling.

 

 

It's enabling to offer somebody support when they have just been dumped brutally and probably cheated on by their SO, and then save the "you need therapy" and "you got yourself into this mess" talk for later once the shock has warn off a bit? Really? Then yes--we do have very, very different ideas of support.

[zengirl]

It's enabling to offer somebody support when they have just been dumped brutally and probably cheated on by their SO, and then save the "you need therapy" and "you got yourself into this mess" talk for later once the shock has warn off a bit? Really? Then yes--we do have very, very different ideas of support.

 

She won't listen to it once the shock has worn off because she will re-write the story in her own head by then. That's how I view ES at least. It's what I've seen quite a few times, with various situations.

[denise_xo]

Exactly. I am starting to wonder if some heavy trolling is going on in this thread?

 

Your profile indicates that you just signed up. If you read up on ES's history, you would see that she has, by her own admission, a troubled history with relationships which is to a great extent rooted in her own insecurities. While she often gets unnecessary and insensitive flack, zengirl has given her, IMO, measured and balanced advice for as long as I've been signed up here. Try to familiarise yourself with the site before you start throwing the troll label around.

[torn_curtain]

Your profile indicates that you just signed up. If you read up on ES's history, you would see that she has, by her own admission, a troubled history with relationships which is to a great extent rooted in her own insecurities. While she often gets unnecessary and insensitive flack, zengirl has given her, IMO, measured and balanced advice for as long as I've been signed up here. Try to familiarise yourself with the site before you start throwing the troll label around.

 

I read the majority of OP's threads on this relationship and I recognize her issues--I'm not denying at all that she may well benefit from therapy. But that being the case Zengirl's comments were still unfortunate and insensitive in the wake of this news. I can see this is a forum where new users are given little credence but sometimes it takes an outsider to notice problems in a community. Anyway arguing about this anymore is a waste of time. I'm out.

[OliveOyl]

Where did I say she wanted to date crazy people? You know, I'm honestly just trying to find a way to believe ES is not lying, because I really don't want her to be a liar. But when I read her posts, that is the Occam's Razor thought that comes to mind. His being crazy is the only other explanation I have.

 

This is veering off-topic but my point is this. You said in a post that was otherwise generally well-written "I don't date crazy people." Well my point is duh. Who starts off dating someone they know is crazy?

 

If you write a post about how you discovered and was upset that your boyfriend was lying to you, and I responded, "Hmm, I don't know. I don't date liars."

 

Why mention it other than to rub in how apparently good your people picker is? You've mentioned frequently in this thread how her ex-BF is not someone you think you'd date.

[nyc_guy2003]

This whole situation reminds me of that S3x and the City episode where Mr. Big dumps Carrie and marries Natasha, and Carrie asks why he did it, and he goes "It just got too complicated."

[zengirl]

This is veering off-topic but my point is this. You said in a post that was otherwise generally well-written "I don't date crazy people." Well my point is duh. Who starts off dating someone they know is crazy?

 

If you write a post about how you discovered and was upset that your boyfriend was lying to you, and I responded, "Hmm, I don't know. I don't date liars."

 

Why mention it other than to rub in how apparently good your people picker is? You've mentioned frequently in this thread how her ex-BF is not someone you think you'd date.

 

Oh, my people picker isn't always perfect by any means, and I didn't mean it that way at all. I've dated liars and such in the past (not of any serious nature real recently) and guys I shouldn't have, certainly.

 

I mention it because I mean to say that, having not dated anyone crazy, I wouldn't be able to recognize the symptoms well of behavior described on a message board. I actually said it to point out a shortcoming in my own ability to give advice on such guys. More a "If the guy might be crazy, I will not necessarily catch that one" -- as I said, that would never cross my mind as I assume all things are generally rational in their own way. (Everyone has, at least, their own, consistent internal logic -- even if it doesn't always agree with everyone else's -- except crazy people. That's what makes them crazy.)

 

And no, I wouldn't date her BF for some reasons that have cropped up here and there (I also said that didn't make him undateable at the time; there are lots of guys I wouldn't date who aren't lunatics and are good enough overall), but I had no idea he was crazy. Which seems quite likely when reading the whole thing overall. I think if I'd dated someone crazy, I would be more likely to be able to spot those issues.

 

Perhaps my phrasing was off (I did write that early in the morning ETA: About the same time, I wrote a post in which I felt the need to clarify I was a girl! ) and I should've said "I haven't dated any crazy people."

Edited July 27, 2011 by zengirl

[snug.bunny]

It turns out that 30 mins Skype request was to actually have the break up talk. When I said I was busy, he dropped this bombshell on me via text:

 

Dear ES, I know this is about to hurt you but I think it's better to be honest right now. I met an amazing girl at a club here last week*. She is a bit younger than me but it was "love at first sight". I never thought I would feel this way. We are so serious about each other that I am bringing her back to Australia. I am sorry to have to end things this way but you left me no other choice since you refused to Skype. Unfortunately you will have to wait for us at the airport to give me back my keys. Take care of yourself.

 

This whole situation reminds me of that S3x and the City episode where Mr. Big dumps Carrie and marries Natasha, and Carrie asks why he did it, and he goes "It just got too complicated."

 

Actually, it reminds me of this ---------- > Clip

 

[Star Gazer]

I read the majority of OP's threads on this relationship and I recognize her issues--

 

Of course you have read her threads and recognize her issues. You're old friends and have been on LS multiple times, so of course you're going to defend her against anyone who criticizes her.

 

Hi, again.

[Star Gazer]

You and I view support differently. I think anything that would ever get ES to actually go to therapy would be the best potential form of support (I'm not saying anything I write could ever get her to help herself, but I'm not ready to stop trying yet, I guess). I assume I'd view your version of support as enabling.

 

Either she's an unreliable narrator or he's crazy. Many people have expressed why the various stories here are cobbled together and make no sense. The only way they make sense is if you introduce rather extreme mental instability, on his part, into it or unreliable POV on her part into it. I don't really care if I was wrong or right. What I do care about is that ES doesn't get all "I knew it!" about this guy because she knew lots of things about this guy. She knew he was awesome, and she knew he sucked, and what the answer is. . . I honestly don't know. Likely he's crazy, unless there's more to the story that's been told. I have been, and will be, wrong about many, many people in my life, particularly people I've only read about on message boards and never met myself through any kind of objective lens. And I'm not particularly ashamed of that. I just don't think it's productive for ES to re-write her story as she has done with so many guys and as I see will happen, rather than seek help.

 

At any rate, your sum up doesn't work because ES didn't just "come here" now. She has patterns. And I see them repeating. And now is the chance for them to not repeat. If someone just came here and shared that text, without the other factors, I would, of course, have a different reaction. But I react with the entire wealth of knowledge that I have, not just to the last thing that happened.

 

Totally agree.

[torn_curtain]

Of course you have read her threads and recognize her issues. You're old friends and have been on LS multiple times, so of course you're going to defend her against anyone who criticizes her.

 

Hi, again.

 

?

 

(character limit)

[threebyfate]

Not sure why it's so difficult to figure out this relationship. Look to the meaningful, rather than being distracted by meaningless detail.

 

*shrugs*

[A O]

Perhaps my phrasing was off (I did write that early in the morning ETA: About the same time, I wrote a post in which I felt the need to clarify I was a girl! ) and I should've said "I haven't dated any crazy people."

Your phrasing wasn't off. Stop apologizing for yourself. There's not a mean bone in your body. ES's supporters, her enablers are doing the exact same thing she does - they're vilifying anyone who doesn't sing to the same tune that she/they do. You can't allow yourself to get caught up in all that nonsense.

 

Your core message is sound, you want ES to be able to enjoy the type of relationships that you, yourself strive for. It can be difficult, but this notion (or one similar) should always be in the back in your mind when corresponding here. And this goes for the many other posters here who actually have ES's best interests at heart (although are often painted as otherwise).

 

 

 

.

[zengirl]

Your phrasing wasn't off. Stop apologizing for yourself. There's not a mean bone in your body. ES's supporters, her enablers are doing the exact same thing she does - they're vilifying anyone who doesn't sing to the same tune that she/they do. You can't allow yourself to get caught up in all that nonsense.

 

Your core message is sound, you want ES to be able to enjoy the type of relationships that you, yourself strive for. It can be difficult, but this notion (or one similar) should always be in the back in your mind when corresponding here. And this goes for the many other posters here who actually have ES's best interests at heart (although are often painted as otherwise).

.

 

Thanks, A O. I like Olive Oyl though -- she and I agree on much (not everything of course, but who does?) on this board, so if she took my meaning differently, it may have been the phrasing.

[A O]

^ ^ ^

One point in an otherwise typically well-intentioned post.

 

No need to doubt yourself.

 

 

.

[threebyfate]

For those who are having difficulty following along or are getting lost or fixated on detail, here's how I see this relationship.

 

You have ES who's always wanted a romantic and sweet guy. You have a guy who role played the romantic and sweet guy, saying all the right things. You also have a guy who's actions didn't match his words.

 

Net result, cognitive dissonance. Gut said one thing to ES. Looking at the surface layer of what he said and sometimes acted created another picture, one of a man she wanted to believe in, one that she fell in love with. But everytime he did something out of character to the in love, romantic character he portrayed to her in words and some actions, it caused her to react in a strongly negative fashion, many times too much. No doubt ES is emotion driven where she has a strong sense of self-protectionism.

 

So now, after all this push/pull, he pulled his final "show his real self" act. No substance under the bull.

[A O]

You have ES who's always wanted a romantic and sweet guy.

And what do you think he wanted and what do you think he got?

 

You have a guy who role played the romantic and sweet guy, saying all the right things. You also have a guy who's actions didn't match his words.

How so? What actions specifically are you referring to? And can you say with your hand on your heart that ES hasn't behaved in the same manner at some point in time? And if your answer is yes to that question then why are you not taking ES to task for the same actions?

 

Gut said one thing to ES.

Her gut said many things, most of which were wrong at the time. How do you propose she better manage these more-often-than-not misleading gut reactions?

 

 

.

[Eternal Sunshine]

Not sure why it's so difficult to figure out this relationship. Look to the meaningful, rather than being distracted by meaningless detail.

 

*shrugs*

 

I agree with this. He did a lot of surface level nice things for me. At times, I could bury my head in the sand and close my eyes and pretend that he is a great guy. But then the underlying pattern emerged with either the blatant lying or lying by omission and hot and cold behavior. I wrote my positive posts during his hot phases. I naively wanted to believe that he is now going to stay this way (hot) and that he won't repeat mistakes of the past. However, those "mistakes" were more fundamental to who he is and ultimately more important to the relationship than buying me gifts and sending me love songs.

 

He may be crazy (my mum said so as well), as his intense emotional instability is beyond me. As you all know, I am not the most emotionally stable person - but at least my instability is not shown in my actions. Yes, I have attempted to break up with him twice. The first time it was because he asked for a break and the second time it was because I caught him in a major lie. Both times I was provoked by his actions and I told him exactly that. His cold periods on the other hand, came on because of something internal in him and it was never because of my actions. They usually came when we had a good patch and I could never determine the cause. In fact, when it makes logical sense for him to be cold (like after a major argument) or a smaller argument or something - he was hotter than ever. This makes me think that he enjoyed the drama on some level.

 

Other than that, my attention, amount of contact and amount of affection were pretty consistent.

[zengirl]

For those who are having difficulty following along or are getting lost or fixated on detail, here's how I see this relationship.

 

You have ES who's always wanted a romantic and sweet guy. You have a guy who role played the romantic and sweet guy, saying all the right things. You also have a guy who's actions didn't match his words.

 

From what she posts, he did do sweet and romantic actions as well though. Not only words. Look at that post from less than 2 weeks ago: she lists things he DOES for her as well. It wasn't all 'lip service.'

 

And I actually don't see a view of this guy being potentially deceitful in a planned way. If anything, he seems overly romantic---as in prone to romantic whims. Romantic/passionate and dedicated/reliable are usually traits that are at odds IME.

 

Either way, this creates a version of ES being an unreliable narrator, though it does give a theory for why and in what way she's unreliable (as a narrator). It's an interesting view. I have no idea whether it's right or wrong.

 

And that's not really meant to be an insult---plenty of people can be unreliable narrators at times. I just find her more confusing than most.

 

ETA: I would not call you crazy, ES, as I can see the internal logic you operate on. I find it flawed, but I don't find it missing. And when I call him crazy, that's literally what I mean (lacking consistent internal logic) --- not necessarily mentally ill. I'm not a trained psychologist who should be diagnosing anyone!

[zengirl]

Her gut said many things, most of which were wrong at the time. How do you propose she better manage these more-often-than-not misleading gut reactions?

.

 

Word. Why do people try to refer to the part of themselves that is 'right' (after the fact) as their gut?

 

Her gut told her to post how awesome he was 11 days before he sent her that breakup text.

 

And this is not just ES. Many times, human beings have conflicting gut instincts, and too often, they try to re-write themselves as right, even though they were just as wrong (in their gut) as they were right (in their gut).

[Nexus One]

Not that it matters to the outcome, but ES how did that last Skype conversation you requested go?

Edited July 27, 2011 by Nexus One

[Eternal Sunshine]

For those who are having difficulty following along or are getting lost or fixated on detail, here's how I see this relationship.

 

You have ES who's always wanted a romantic and sweet guy. You have a guy who role played the romantic and sweet guy, saying all the right things. You also have a guy who's actions didn't match his words.

 

Net result, cognitive dissonance. Gut said one thing to ES. Looking at the surface layer of what he said and sometimes acted created another picture, one of a man she wanted to believe in, one that she fell in love with. But everytime he did something out of character to the in love, romantic character he portrayed to her in words and some actions, it caused her to react in a strongly negative fashion, many times too much. No doubt ES is emotion driven where she has a strong sense of self-protectionism.

 

So now, after all this push/pull, he pulled his final "show his real self" act. No substance under the bull.

 

Brilliant TBF. 100% spot on.

 

Even our mutual friends (that we have spent a LOT of time with) thought that he is crazy about me. Many have told me that they wish they would find a guy who is in love with them like that. He acted this perfect major love story, in words and MINOR actions. He insisted on taking 100s of pictures of us that are all over Facebook.

 

But every now and then, he would do something that would jolt me into thinking "Hang on, this doesn't gel with that picture he is presenting". For the longest time I thought that I am just being insecure and paranoid. But more and more negative evidence was emerging, until it became impossible to ignore. And then how he ended things - it's just further confirmation on who he truly is.