Need to vent! DDay happen....

[KathyM]

As you say in a "prior" post, yet can't be bothered to read others stories before posting.. (your words)..

 

I get what you're saying, but dear Kathy...... It's not the OW's place/job to clue the BS in on the A. You seem to let the WS off the hook. Is he blameless in your calculation? He is the one married to her, shouldn't HE be the one to fill in the gaps? I don't see why you feel the need to place that job squarely on the OW's shoulders.

 

It's the MM/MW who needs to explain to the BS. If he makes the decision to stay in the M, it's on him/her. The OW/OM are out. They don't bear the burden of explaining anything to the BS.

 

Geez....

I do read a lot of what's on these threads, but not always every post, especially the longer ones. And I certainly can't always remember everything that everybody said on a thread. That's why I made that clarification, in case I remembered something incorrectly that was said. I'd certainly agree with you that it is the MMs responsibility to tell his wife and come clean. I'm not letting him off the hook at all. But let's be honest, the chances of him telling the wife any or all of the truth are not very good. He has a marriage and relationship with his wife that he is trying to hold onto, and he realizes his chances of keeping the wife are not very good if she knows the truth. I'm not saying it's the OWs responsibility to tell the BS, but she still should, because she is the only person with that information other than the MM, and he's not likely talking. She would be doing the BS a favor by telling her the truth, so she can make a choice with her eyes open, instead of living a lie and staying in a marriage that is a sham. She would then have the choice to leave, and find someone she can trust to spend the rest of her life with, or she can decide to stay and get counseling to try to repair the broken marriage. But if she is left in the dark without knowing, her choices are taken away from her.

[TurboGirl]

No, she doesn't have to say anything, but should she? Well, she could just try to sweep it under the rug, let the MM go on to continue to deceive his wife, let the BS live a life never knowing what that man she has sleeping next to her has done to her behind her back, keep her in the dark so she never has an opportunity to find happiness with someone she can trust. If that's something all you OW and former OW can live with, so be it.

 

No, Kathy. I just love those who are so fast to run to the BS and tattle tale on the H or W's activities. It is up to the MM to tell his wife. Not the "marriage police." This cracks me up, because sometimes the wives want to live with their heads in the sand, enjoying their nice life even though it is a sham. So telling or not telling many times does not make a difference. I know of 2 such situations in my circle of friends. One of my neighbors flat out told me that she doesn't care what her H does, as long as he pays the bills and comes home at night and helps her with the kids! She knows he had a GF for a while. So, everyone is different

[Spark1111]

As I said in a prior post, there is a great likelihood that if the OW remains silent, the affair may never be known. The BS doesn't know that her husband can't be trusted. She would be living her life thinking everything is fine, or getting some scewed side to the story that the MM had used to lie his way out of taking responsibility. That's not fair to the wife. It takes away her choices in life. It keeps her in darkness, and that's never a good position to be in.

 

Well, call me naive, but I'm with you on this one.

 

I think two mature women duped by the same guy can have an honest heart to heart and put it finally all to rest; make decisions, enact positive changes and plan for a future with, or without him.

 

I also agree that a fWS when confronted will lie, omit, and minimize to save their own azz and throw both the OW and BS under the bus for one reason: To AVOID facing the consequences of their selfish actions.

 

Like a kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar. And it is enough to make a woman crazy.

 

Now maybe as an OW you do not care if he changes for the better or becomes a more honest man in his future. I get that.

 

But at one time you cared enough about him when you thought you would be the one to have a future with him and hoped he would be the better man for you.

 

So it seems unfair and somewhat childish to me, somewhat self-serving, that NOW, when he has minimized you and your relationship with him, that the marriage is now on them and you do not have to say a word.

 

I guess, if the wife doesn't try to contact you, you can assume she accepted his lies and minimizing of you. Move on.

 

But if she does, please have the courage to tell her the truth. She, just like you, is hoping exposure will force him to own his actions, and to become a better man for her in their future, or she can decide her own life and future without him.

 

I think it's only fair, IMO.

[TurningTables]

What is it that you are spitting angry about. You knew he was married from the get go. you knew what you were getting into.

 

 

Thank you Krisitsmiles. I knew exactly what I was getting into and what I was doing as of a couple of months ago. I have taken full responsilbility for it also. You might want to read backstories before you comment.

Also, I am not sure what your story is, but you might attract more bees with honey than that venom that youve been spewing over the forum lately. Been kind to someone and sharing your POV nicely gets across much better than being nasty. Its just a thought.....

[Spark1111]

No, Kathy. I just love those who are so fast to run to the BS and tattle tale on the H or W's activities. It is up to the MM to tell his wife. Not the "marriage police." This cracks me up, because sometimes the wives want to live with their heads in the sand, enjoying their nice life even though it is a sham. So telling or not telling many times does not make a difference. I know of 2 such situations in my circle of friends. One of my neighbors flat out told me that she doesn't care what her H does, as long as he pays the bills and comes home at night and helps her with the kids! She knows he had a GF for a while. So, everyone is different

 

True! And I know as equally many scenarios as BB07's, where wife and AP compared notes and were both outraged by the lies and distortions either one was fed by the MM.

 

In those scenarios, where the women WANTED to be enlightened by the truth, it was liberating.

[thomasb]

No, Kathy. I just love those who are so fast to run to the BS and tattle tale on the H or W's activities. It is up to the MM to tell his wife. Not the "marriage police." This cracks me up, because sometimes the wives want to live with their heads in the sand, enjoying their nice life even though it is a sham. So telling or not telling many times does not make a difference. I know of 2 such situations in my circle of friends. One of my neighbors flat out told me that she doesn't care what her H does, as long as he pays the bills and comes home at night and helps her with the kids! She knows he had a GF for a while. So, everyone is different

 

It isn't the marriage that is a sham. It's the affair. I should know.

[thomasb]

kindly point me in the direction of where you see venom and nastiness? I see my truth from my pov. My truth beng different from yours does not nasty make. Hiding from the truth will not help you.

 

Aw, but don't you see that because you don't agree your opinion must therefore be irrelevant?

[thomasb]

That's not what it's about.........seriously.

 

Not what it should be...true.

[TurningTables]

Not what it should be...true.

 

 

ThomasB: I welcome any and all comments except the ones that are nasty and rude. This is an open forum and some of the reasons WHY I ended my EA was because of the FOW/BS that posted to me. They were not mean, but to the point and blunt. Kristismiles has NOT been nice to many, many others on this board. She has attacked and targeted other members who are here to ask questions, help and give their POV from their own diary. After all, that is what this forum is all about. If not, why are these "others" here?

[thomasb]

ThomasB: I welcome any and all comments except the ones that are nasty and rude. This is an open forum and some of the reasons WHY I ended my EA was because of the FOW/BS that posted to me. They were not mean, but to the point and blunt. Kristismiles has NOT been nice to many, many others on this board. She has attacked and targeted other members who are here to ask questions, help and give their POV from their own diary. After all, that is what this forum is all about. If not, why are these "others" here?

 

I was an 'other' my dear. And I still think she is right.

[TurningTables]

I was an 'other' my dear. And I still think she is right.

 

 

I mean by "others" is that someone who isnt a OW/FOW/BS/ETC and is here just to cause trouble and not be productive in helping anyone solve their problems. I am sorry, I should have clarified.

[KathyM]

No, Kathy. I just love those who are so fast to run to the BS and tattle tale on the H or W's activities. It is up to the MM to tell his wife. Not the "marriage police." This cracks me up, because sometimes the wives want to live with their heads in the sand, enjoying their nice life even though it is a sham. So telling or not telling many times does not make a difference. I know of 2 such situations in my circle of friends. One of my neighbors flat out told me that she doesn't care what her H does, as long as he pays the bills and comes home at night and helps her with the kids! She knows he had a GF for a while. So, everyone is different

It IS up to the MM to tell his wife, but you know he won't unless he's forced to. Very rarely will a man confess the whole story of an affair unless hard evidence is shown to him, and even then he'll try to put his spin on it to make it sound less or different than what the evidence shows. That leaves the OW as the only one who can bring the honest truth out into the open. Most BS would want to know if their husband is having an affair. They don't want to be kept in the dark. Most women would not stay with a spouse that cheated on them. Some do try to restore their marriage with counseling. Sure, there are a few women out there with no self respect that are willing to put up with a husband cheating on them, and try to look the other way. Some women think his cheating gives her a license to cheat as well. Lot of screwed up people out there. But most BS would want to know. You may take a poll of LS on whether or not the BS would want to be told about the affair from the OW, but you won't get an accurate picture from this message board. Lots of OW or former OW post here. Not an accurate picture of the general population.

[KathyM]

Well, call me naive, but I'm with you on this one.

 

I think two mature women duped by the same guy can have an honest heart to heart and put it finally all to rest; make decisions, enact positive changes and plan for a future with, or without him.

 

I also agree that a fWS when confronted will lie, omit, and minimize to save their own azz and throw both the OW and BS under the bus for one reason: To AVOID facing the consequences of their selfish actions.

 

Like a kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar. And it is enough to make a woman crazy.

 

Now maybe as an OW you do not care if he changes for the better or becomes a more honest man in his future. I get that.

 

But at one time you cared enough about him when you thought you would be the one to have a future with him and hoped he would be the better man for you.

 

So it seems unfair and somewhat childish to me, somewhat self-serving, that NOW, when he has minimized you and your relationship with him, that the marriage is now on them and you do not have to say a word.

 

I guess, if the wife doesn't try to contact you, you can assume she accepted his lies and minimizing of you. Move on.

 

But if she does, please have the courage to tell her the truth. She, just like you, is hoping exposure will force him to own his actions, and to become a better man for her in their future, or she can decide her own life and future without him.

 

I think it's only fair, IMO.

Exactly. Agreed. But I would also add that if you are the OW, you shouldn't wait for the BS to contact you. Most of the time, she will have no way of knowing who you are or how to contact you. You should contact her, and give her the truth. She wants to know. You'd be doing her a favor and giving her back her choices in life.

[Spark1111]

I have few regrets and still feel I did the right thing for that particular situation. MM's say so many things to both the ow and the bs in order to keep them from talking. They work one against the other with outright lies, partial truths or just the dynamic itself (woman against woman) and then the mm turn around and use the dynamic they helped create to cover their own sorry azz. It's just ugly........no matter how you look at it.

 

Yes, this is the classic triangle dynamic. And it works beautifully to protect the one having two relationships simultaneously by it's very design by keeping the two women away from each other.

[piscis]

*YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SAY ANYTHING TO ANYONE!* Let things settle down, and whatever you do, do not take Kathy's advice - above. Bad move. Let it all die a natural death.

 

 

Hi TT sorry you are going through this.

I completly agree with this, do not say anything to anyone you do not need to apologize or explain whatever you did to anyone.

take good care of yourself and talk to your family if you want to because you want you not because you ow them.

About him and his W let them take care of that theirselves, you can spend your time thinking if she knows if she doesn't know if he told her, if he didn't.

Try to avoid contact with him.

Hope you feel better soon

[piscis]

Well, call me naive, but I'm with you on this one.

 

I think two mature women duped by the same guy can have an honest heart to heart and put it finally all to rest; make decisions, enact positive changes and plan for a future with, or without him.

 

I also agree that a fWS when confronted will lie, omit, and minimize to save their own azz and throw both the OW and BS under the bus for one reason: To AVOID facing the consequences of their selfish actions.

 

Like a kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar. And it is enough to make a woman crazy.

 

Now maybe as an OW you do not care if he changes for the better or becomes a more honest man in his future. I get that.

 

But at one time you cared enough about him when you thought you would be the one to have a future with him and hoped he would be the better man for you.

 

So it seems unfair and somewhat childish to me, somewhat self-serving, that NOW, when he has minimized you and your relationship with him, that the marriage is now on them and you do not have to say a word.

 

I guess, if the wife doesn't try to contact you, you can assume she accepted his lies and minimizing of you. Move on.

 

But if she does, please have the courage to tell her the truth. She, just like you, is hoping exposure will force him to own his actions, and to become a better man for her in their future, or she can decide her own life and future without him.

 

I think it's only fair, IMO.

 

Wow!! loved this post Spark I used to feel that way, in my heart I know this is the best and you are right in every word, I tried to do that once BS contacted me, the thing is you never know how the other person can react and I am not saying she had to react in some way she had all the right to react as she wanted or needed, but the essence of what you just posted most of the times can not be reached thta is why I advice TT to not do a thing further of herself and her family.

[Equinox]

Man, there is a lot of throat shoving from both sides, over here.

 

"You have to tell her tell her tell her tell her tell her tell her. It's the moral thing to do. If you were the BS, you would want to know."

 

"No! Don't tell. The BW won't believe you, and she will come after you. And she'll probably find out on her own anyway. According to the Big Book O' OW Rules, it's not your place to tell."

 

TT, do what you have to do to maintain NC and move on with your life. But there's no need to pretty up some of the reasons as to why you are keeping your mouth shut to the BW.

[fooled once]

Aw, but don't you see that because you don't agree your opinion must therefore be irrelevant?

 

Actually Thomas, you are being hard on Turning. If you read her prior threads, she has a lot of remorse for her actions. Please don't start with the drama. I really like your posts, but this one was not cool and Turning is in a bad place right now and doesn't need any more dumping on. Ok?

 

Turning.....don't let the opinions of 1-2 people affect you. YOU know what you feel. YOU have owned your past actions. Don't be drawn into a 'war of words'. You are better than that. **hugs**

[browndog319]

Kathy, yes, many OWs did cross a line getting involved in As with MM. However, we did not remove their choice in the situation.

 

Since DDay, I've read on the infidelity board on this site, and other infidelity sites, what BSs go thru. For the most part, many women all remark on how they knew something was not right. They knew that their Hs were doing something and they went looking for clues. That's how they got caught. Very few MM confess, they wait until they are confronted and many BSs confront with limited proof or some that have been through it a few times wait until they have some.

 

So right out of the gate they have the choice to believe the story the MM feeds them or believe the evidence.

 

Personally, I've never felt the need to check my ex-H's Email or a BF's for that matter. So I don't know that intuitive feeling I've read about. It sounds fairly universal, however.

 

So BSs have a choice - believe the evidence, even if limited, or believe the story. And if you choose the latter, then you have to deal with those consequences.

 

My MM still Emails me. His BS still checks my crap. They are on a family freaking vacation and I've had my LinkedIn checked TWICE today by her. Jeez. Whatever. So she chose to ACT like she believes him (2nd DDay, same stupid story), insisted on MC, and now she's looking for clues with me. Because she doesn't believe him. So she made what looks like a choice, but she may make another down the road.

 

If she contacts me, I will speak with her. I will tell her the truth. But I will not Email her directly. She made her choice to go this route. I don't know why. She has to live with it. But I'm making a choice to not tell her anything proactively but I've committed to telling the truth if approached and MM knows that. I told him I would.

[Equinox]

However, we did not remove their choice in the situation.

Being the a-hole that I am, I feel the need to expand on this.

 

As long as the BS remains ignorant to an affair, or is lacking in evidence of an affair (how many BWs are actually going to follow up on the "it's just a friend from work" line, or similar cr*p? The extremely paranoid maybe.), they will find that their choices are limited. So pretty much anybody that knows about the affair, and decides to keep quiet about it, is depriving the BS of their choices. And most OWs know what they are getting into.

 

If the BS knows 100%...well, the rest of your post covers that.

 

For the most part, many women all remark on how they knew something was not right. They knew that their Hs were doing something and they went looking for clues.

"For the most part" is important here.

 

I was completely blindsided for the duration of my wife's affair. Same with her reaction to my affair. Had I not confessed, she probably wouldn't have found out, and my affair could've gone on and on.

 

Which is why I become slightly...disconcerted when I see comments like "Well, she'll probably find out on her own." or "It's for the best that she doesn't find out. It would hurt her too badly". Very few OWs ever find out how accurate their assumptions are.

 

Eh.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Equinox

[browndog319]

Obviously she does not believe him and is looking for any shred of evidence to boot his behind out. She has to be in so much pain and going psycho if she keeps checking up on you. Why not take this woman out of her misery? Forward his emails to her. It's a simple kindness.

 

I see your point of view but I believe this - if it comes from me, he could always expand his story to say I was obsessed with him and was pissed when he cut off our friendship and LIED about the A. She might be looking for reasons to BELIEVE him versus reasons to boot him.

 

It's not like the MM is particularly truthful and clearly, he's a skilled liar! Hell, maybe he really told her we were friends and I had a little crush already just in case... who knows. Maybe he lied about me more than I know.

 

I don't see what good could come from me telling her. I am tempted to make my FB status one day something along the lines of "If you want to know, just ask me..." but more playful so my friends will think I'm starting some game, but she might get the hidden message that I'm inviting her to contact me and that I will be forthcoming.

 

I do feel bad for how crazy it must be making her because I know she doesn't fully believe him. The last time I talked to him over two weeks ago I told him he should just come clean and he said he just thought that was a bad idea. And he thinks she does.

[Silly_Girl]

It isn't the marriage that is a sham. It's the affair. I should know.

 

That may be true for you but there's a lot of 'empty she'll marriages out there. You'll probably not see them represented here because most folks join because they care and want to better their situation. Those in denial, or who accept their situation, would not get value from a relationship site.

[SoleMate]

Just as a practical matter, what are the chances a W will believe the OW? Or that she SHOULD believe the OW? There have been several OW on LS who have admitted to gaslighting the W when confronted. In some cases, the OW made a positive effort to seek out the BS and gaslight her or otherwise do something other than full and honest disclosure.

 

Then there have been the cases, where an OW, often one who was lied to and told that the xMM was single, made an honest effort to inform the BS, out of compassion and a sense of duty to share the truth, then got her head metaphorically ripped off and thrown under the bus and found herself feeling much worse and more victimized, or even the target of violent hatred (nasty calls, car vandalizing etc.).

 

There are also W who truly do not want to know. They include "head in sand" types, and also those who would rather not have their peace disturbed by a story that may or may not be true, or be offered in good faith.

 

Some posters have indicated that an anonymous letter is the perfect way to tip off the BS. Imagining myself on the receiving end, that is just about the LAST thing I would want....i.e. conclusory accusations from an uncheckable source. The MM will almost certainly deny, and then the W has nothing but nagging fear. After all, the tipstress MIGHT be a liar with a grudge. So you've blown her peace and happiness (if she had any) without providing any useable information.

 

So I agree that the OW rarely or never should tell, and never or almost never has an obligation to tell. The best way for the OW to meet any moral duty to the wife, is to stop seeing her husband.

[serial muse]

I am tempted to make my FB status one day something along the lines of "If you want to know, just ask me..." but more playful so my friends will think I'm starting some game, but she might get the hidden message that I'm inviting her to contact me and that I will be forthcoming.

 

I do feel bad for how crazy it must be making her because I know she doesn't fully believe him. The last time I talked to him over two weeks ago I told him he should just come clean and he said he just thought that was a bad idea. And he thinks she does.

 

I don't know...this strikes me as kind of cruel. Knowing that she's already deeply confused and trying to sort things out, why would you consider vague, sly hints in the faint hope she'll "get it"? If you have something you want to say - even if it's just to tell her she's free to ask you questions if she'd like - please just be direct. That would be a kindness. If you don't want to talk, then for heaven's sake, just don't. Please don't play games.

Edited July 29, 2011 by serial muse

[fellhard4u]

I think two mature women duped by the same guy can have an honest heart to heart and put it finally all to rest; make decisions, enact positive changes and plan for a future with, or without him.

I also agree that a fWS when confronted will lie, omit, and minimize to save their own azz and throw both the OW and BS under the bus for one reason: To AVOID facing the consequences of their selfish actions.

 

It's funny how most MM react the same on Dday at the expense of both the BW and the OW. My Dday happened last May and am still reeling from the devastation caused by ex MM's lies in the aftermath.

Ex MM never could face the truth about himself: that he is a hypocrite, a coward and a cheater. When I called him out on this, his reaction was that I was mean and cruel and was trying to hurt him by telling him these things. Since Dday, both exMM and BW have made it clear that they believe that I was the true villain in the affair. BW wife believes exMM was "the victim".