Wife is about to make it physical.

[Calif_hope]

Van, I hope you keep posting, some actual good advice is being posted here. The rest you have to take with a grain of salt.

 

I wish the best for you and your children. I acknowledge we don't know all the facts and history so I for one refrain from giving broad scoping advice. It us not once size fits all and you cannot cookie cutter advice.

 

Take care of yourself and keep your guard up and your heart protected.

[Chi townD]

Forget all the drama, show her the evidence (make sure you have copies, she might try to destroy them when she see's them.) Record you conversation and tell her you're divorcing her. You've already contacted a lawyer and he's drawing up the papers. You're going to contact a real estate agent to sell the house and the only discussion you'll entertain is about the kids.

[Dreama_70]

My point is that these things happen. We can vilify the woman, or we can accept that she's made some bad choices, probably due to an unsatisfying marriage, an identity crisis or plain, simple boredom. Sure, if she was the picture of perfect emotional health (like everyone here expects everyone to be - which is really the unrealistic part imo) she would have engaged Van in a discussion about how she was feeling; she would have worked on the marriage; she would have made different choices ... but she didn't.

 

The only choices Van, or anyone, can control are his own. He doesn't own his wife. Sure, they made a "commitment", commitment, shomittment ... over 50% of US marriages end in Divorce and the number is similar in other developed countries. What happens to "commitment" in those cases. The world is not the picture perfect place posters here seem to want to bend it into being.

 

I've got a friend who's wife left him 12 months ago to hook-up with an old flame she met-up with on the internet. He respectfully and lovingly acknowledged her choice. he didn't like it, and he made it clear he didn't like it ... but he respected that just because they were married, didn't mean he "owned" her and she had to take her journey wherever it went. She was desperately unhappy in herself, and that manifested in her unhappiness with him and the marriage.

 

There was no drama, few arguements, they calmly split up their assets and went their separate ways.

 

A week ago, she called him and admitted she'd made a terrible mistake. She thanked him for giving her the space she needed to figure out what was wrong with her and to do the work she needed to do on herself. She'd been hideously co-dependent after growing up with an alcoholic, abusive father and she had to work through that. She asked to reconcile. I suspect he will agree.

 

Affairs have happened since the beginning of time, and I get tired of listening to the same old middle-America, conservative dribble about "commitment" and "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah..." .

 

For 200 years before the 1960s and 1970s people believed in "commmitment" to the exclusion of everything else - and women had to tolerate hideous intimate-partner violence, alcoholism, lovelessness, mistresses etc etc etc ... all in the name of "commitment".

 

Committment is a con, perpetuated by institutions to control people. Surely we should stay in marriages because they fulfil us. Because we get our needs met in them. Not because of a commitment we made when we probably weren't even old enough to understand what 'til death do us part meant.

 

This couple were 25 when they first got together. They are now in their 40s. Things change, people change ... give her a break.

 

LOL, I couldn't agree more. She's going through a mid-life crisis. Tired of the grind, tired of seeing dreams disappear, tired of being tired, tired of the same isht different day. I swear if I thought my husband would just let me have an affair on the side we probably wouldn't be in divorce talks right now.

 

And for all of you men out there, when I married my husband 15 years ago, I didn't even ask him for fidelity, for a lot of reason; one being that monogamy isn't even natural to the human animal. What I asked him for was THIS:

 

1. Never bring drama in my life. Let chicky know I'm number one. I don't want to see it or hear it. No phone calls at my house, no disrespect in the streets, no underwear in the cars. bblah blah

 

2. Don't bring anything else home either ->strap it up.

 

3. Don't fck with my money, do you out of your allowance I don't care if she has to go half on the room. I WILL NOT go into debt or be paying for fancy gifts and trips to the spa that I DON'T GET. Take care of house first, what you have left over is yours.

 

caveat - If it ever comes to my attention that you are having an affair then that's an automatic "get some dck free" card.

 

In 15 years I have never had reason to believe my husband has cheated. That doesn't mean he hasn't, almost every man we know has/does, but I've never had a reason to suspect it. I don't look for it either. He goes out with friends about once a week and he sometimes travels to the south to visit his family and old friends without me. I have never had the urge to check his cellphone or email acts. I know women that have driven themselves crazy chasing after a man trying to make sure he wasn't cheating, they find their evidence that he is and then try to prevent it from happening again. They have ALL gotten (or in one case, are getting) a divorce.

 

My advice to Van - let her have it. She'll grow tired of it soon enough. If you make it an issue, she'll leave. She may regret it terribly as an afterthought but right now the only thing she cares about is having her outlet.

 

 

And for those that will call you a "cuckold" or other such nonsense ->just check out their bitter divorce stories and feel their anger and resentment, I bet more than one wish they had done the same thing. You certainly wouldn't be the only man to do it, and women have been doing it forever.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Dreama_70

[dreamingoftigers]

Why would having an affair be the key to saving your marriage?

Seems kind of messed right up, no?

[Woggle]

LOL, I couldn't agree more. She's going through a mid-life crisis. Tired of the grind, tired of seeing dreams disappear, tired of being tired, tired of the same isht different day. I swear if I thought my husband would just let me have an affair on the side we probably wouldn't be in divorce talks right now.

 

And for all of you men out there, when I married my husband 15 years ago, I didn't even ask him for fidelity, for a lot of reason; one being that monogamy isn't even natural to the human animal. What I asked him for was THIS:

 

1. Never bring drama in my life. Let chicky know I'm number one. I don't want to see it or hear it. No phone calls at my house, no disrespect in the streets, no underwear in the cars. bblah blah

 

2. Don't bring anything else home either ->strap it up.

 

3. Don't fck with my money, do you out of your allowance I don't care if she has to go half on the room. I WILL NOT go into debt or be paying for fancy gifts and trips to the spa that I DON'T GET. Take care of house first, what you have left over is yours.

 

caveat - If it ever comes to my attention that you are having an affair then that's an automatic "get some dck free" card.

 

In 15 years I have never had reason to believe my husband has cheated. That doesn't mean he hasn't, almost every man we know has/does, but I've never had a reason to suspect it. I don't look for it either. He goes out with friends about once a week and he sometimes travels to the south to visit his family and old friends without me. I have never had the urge to check his cellphone or email acts. I know women that have driven themselves crazy chasing after a man trying to make sure he wasn't cheating, they find their evidence that he is and then try to prevent it from happening again. They have ALL gotten (or in one case, are getting) a divorce.

 

My advice to Van - let her have it. She'll grow tired of it soon enough. If you make it an issue, she'll leave. She may regret it terribly as an afterthought but right now the only thing she cares about is having her outlet.

 

 

And for those that will call you a "cuckold" or other such nonsense ->just check out their bitter divorce stories and feel their anger and resentment, I bet more than one wish they had done the same thing. You certainly wouldn't be the only man to do it, and women have been doing it forever.

 

This whole post is just a bunch of BS. Maybe she will leave but he will be better off. Who wants somebody who has so little regard or respect for her spouse?

[Dreama_70]

@ dreaming and Woggle, why don't you ask a man that question? As I said on another thread "In NO society has male monogamy been the expectation, whether that's explicit (plural wives, harems) or implicit (sowing oats, mistresses, slaves, prostitutes)" They've managed to work it out. Heck, in Italy the wives and mistresses cry together at the funeral.

[Trimmer]

And for all of you men out there, when I married my husband 15 years ago, I didn't even ask him for fidelity, for a lot of reason; one being that monogamy isn't even natural to the human animal. What I asked him for was THIS:

I appreciate that you have created a relationship that works for you and your husband, and part of the reason it has worked is because you guys came to a mutual meeting of the minds early on. You each had a chance to state your case and set your boundaries, you came to mutual agreement, and you stuck with it. The particular boundaries that you agreed to were ones that have apparently worked for you for the long term, and it's an interesting contribution to the discussion to suggest that these might work for others as well.

 

Having said that:

My advice to Van - let her have it. She'll grow tired of it soon enough. If you make it an issue, she'll leave.

I don't believe it's as simple as just telling the OP to change his attitude at this stage in the game.

 

See, if your husband blatantly stepped over the barriers you had both clearly agreed to originally, wouldn't you feel betrayed? Irrespective of what those barriers are, and where different couples set them, the thing that breaks the relationship is when a spouse disregards that mutual agreement and goes and breaks the barriers anyway.

 

For the OP, the barrier is already broken. The basis of their marriage - whether you believe it is realistic or not, in a world where monogamy seems so hard - was fidelity. The OP's wife blatantly and knowingly broke that barrier without giving the OP the benefit of discussing or renegotiating it openly. The trust issue that has broken the relationship is in that blatant disregard for what had been their mutual agreement.

 

Again, I agree that it's a completely valid discussion to explore what boundaries a couple can mutually agree to, that are realistic to maintain and support in a healthy relationship in the long run. However, once a meeting of the minds is in place, and a spouse destroys the boundary, he/she also destroys the trust that was implicit in the relationship, so at that point, there's a lot more to it than telling the OP that just changing his mind and "letting her have it" will solve anything.

 

And for those that will call you a "cuckold" or other such nonsense ->just check out their bitter divorce stories and feel their anger and resentment...

I completely agree. There's room for honest advice and disagreement, and even "tough love", but I think those who are lashing out at the OP, calling him weak, calling him names, and predicting his failure, are doing so because they are projecting - seeing him as a proxy for themselves and their own relatinship failures. This just makes their latent anger resurface, and they are pretty clearly redirecting their own self-loathing toward him.

[dreamingoftigers]

Woggle is a man, and quite a good one at that.

 

Male unmonogamy really doesn't work for me having been the higher sex-drive partner married to a cheater. I think I'd rather date a squid, at least they have suction cups I could rub up against.

[RetiredFuzz]

where did Van disappear to? Is he so sensitive that the derogatory discussion got to him? Honestly, given his rhetoric from the past week, I would of thought he'd be around here to defend himself! I guess I find that extremely disappointing.

[Woggle]

@ dreaming and Woggle, why don't you ask a man that question? As I said on another thread "In NO society has male monogamy been the expectation, whether that's explicit (plural wives, harems) or implicit (sowing oats, mistresses, slaves, prostitutes)" They've managed to work it out. Heck, in Italy the wives and mistresses cry together at the funeral.

 

His marriage has nothing to do with what happens in Italy. He has been a faithful and loving husband and has every right to expect that from his wife.

 

If she is tired of it all and blame him then what better favor can he do for her other than letting her go. If he is the cause of so much misery in her life then he should do them both a favor and divorce her ass.

[Dreama_70]

This whole post is just a bunch of BS. Maybe she will leave but he will be better off. Who wants somebody who has so little regard or respect for her spouse?

 

lol. Not BS. All of our family and friends and even some co-workers pretty much know my rules and ALL of the males we know think I'm the coolest thing since sliced bread and how they wish they could meet a girl like me -> figures.

 

I have NEVER heard a man say that he would disagree with those rules, and I've been dispensing that advice for quit a long time. Unless, of course, he was on some internet forum trying to make sense of his bitter relationship by disagreeing with anything that didn't fit his victim storyline. What's good for the goose my friend...

[reboot]

There is no reason for Van to defend himself here, and to suggest that he needs to is ridiculous. I bet he's just as sad as me that you're disappointed. And I'd say it's entirely possible he has a lot more important going on than posting on LoveShack at the moment.

[dreamingoftigers]

Woggle has a great marriage actually. Missed the mark twice....

 

It sounds like you have never been cheated on. Period.

[dreamingoftigers]

There is no reason for Van to defend himself here, and to suggest that he needs to is ridiculous. I bet he's just as sad as me that you're disappointed. And I'd say it's entirely possible he has a lot more important going on than posting on LoveShack at the moment.

 

Dude probably needs about a week to process that this is reality even.

 

It took me so long to realize what was real. Almost to the point of dissociation

[Woggle]

Woggle has a great marriage actually. Missed the mark twice....

 

It sounds like you have never been cheated on. Period.

 

Exactly. I have a woman who would never do this and in the very unlikely scenario where she does I am packing her stuff and sending her on her way.

[Dreama_70]

His marriage has nothing to do with what happens in Italy. He has been a faithful and loving husband and has every right to expect that from his wife.

 

If she is tired of it all and blame him then what better favor can he do for her other than letting her go. If he is the cause of so much misery in her life then he should do them both a favor and divorce her ass.

 

I would imagine that many of the 642 post before yours have made points that "have nothing to do with Van's marriage" but it does have to do with the question I was asked (or is that not how this forum works?). Second of all, WE are the cause of most of our own misery. Maybe he doesn't need to change his wife (which is impossible anyway), maybe he just needs to change his mind. We have control over no one but ourselves.

[Dreama_70]

Woggle is a man, and quite a good one at that.

 

Male unmonogamy really doesn't work for me having been the higher sex-drive partner married to a cheater. I think I'd rather date a squid, at least they have suction cups I could rub up against.

 

lol:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[reboot]

I would imagine that many of the 642 post before yours have made points that "have nothing to do with Van's marriage" but it does have to do with the question I was asked (or is that not how this forum works?). Second of all, WE are the cause of most of our own misery. Maybe he doesn't need to change his wife (which is impossible anyway), maybe he just needs to change his mind. We have control over no one but ourselves.

 

It's pretty obvious you relate to his wife, and not Van.

[Dreama_70]

Exactly. I have a woman who would never do this and in the very unlikely scenario where she does I am packing her stuff and sending her on her way.

 

Well from your intial response to my post, and the forum we are in, I made some assumptions. Perhaps if you had stated something to the effect of "well I disagree" instead of your "BS" statement, I wouldn't have come in on the defense. Sue me.

[Lucky_One]

where did Van disappear to? Is he so sensitive that the derogatory discussion got to him? Honestly, given his rhetoric from the past week, I would of thought he'd be around here to defend himself! I guess I find that extremely disappointing.

 

Don't be silly. He has posted within the last 24 hours. He has nothing to defend himself from, and he actually might have a life outside LS. His life is in disarray, and being required to post on LS in order to answer a bunch of idiotic posts is ridiculous. He will be here, when and if he decides it is the best thing for himself.

[Woggle]

Well from your intial response to my post, and the forum we are in, I made some assumptions. Perhaps if you had stated something to the effect of "well I disagree" instead of your "BS" statement, I wouldn't have come in on the defense. Sue me.

 

Quite honestly it is BS. You are implying that a man who has done nothing to deserve just sit there and forgive what she has done to him. I would say the same thing if it were a woman being cheated on. An honest open relationship is fine but to lie to and betray somebody that trusts you is just a disgusting act in my book.

[Dreama_70]

It's pretty obvious you relate to his wife, and not Van.

 

It's pretty obvious that I understand the concept that bears don't get counseling because of their inability to hibernate and lions don't get ridiculed for not stalking an elk and bears don't become social outcast from other bears for not catching fish because of their phobia of water, and that monogomy is not natural to the human animal.

[dreamingoftigers]

You just haven't met a great animal therapist yet.

[Trimmer]

where did Van disappear to? Is he so sensitive that the derogatory discussion got to him? Honestly, given his rhetoric from the past week, I would of thought he'd be around here to defend himself! I guess I find that extremely disappointing.

Defend himself? From what? Like the rest of us, he's likely mature enough to ignore those who would put him in a position to "defend himself." Hell, who needs that?

 

And as reboot pointed out, most of us also realize that whatever is going on in his real life should take priority over coming back here to LS and updating us all.

 

I would imagine that many of the 642 post before yours have made points that "have nothing to do with Van's marriage" but it does have to do with the question I was asked (or is that not how this forum works?).

Actually the way this forum is supposed to work is that we are supposed to stay on the original topic, and if you have an interesting side topic (as you do) you are expected to take it into a different thread so it gets the attention it deserves, as well as allowing this thread to continue more directly on its own topic.

 

Thus, I maintain that the question of "what a marriage could be" is a perfectly valid point of discussion, but is not on-topic for this thread, because the issue here isn't "how should the OP and his wife have structured their marriage" (which is very much what you are discussing), but rather what should he do now that she has unilaterally broken the mutual understanding that was the foundation of their particular marriage.

 

Whether the particular boundaries that they agreed to live by are in line with those that you do, the fact is that his spouse broke the agreement without giving him the benefit of discussion or renegotiation. That loss of trust is what he's recovering from, so your advice that they should have negotiated different boundaries in their marriage is a little after-the-fact for this particular situation.

[Dreama_70]

I appreciate that you have created a relationship that works for you and your husband, and part of the reason it has worked is because you guys came to a mutual meeting of the minds early on. You each had a chance to state your case and set your boundaries, you came to mutual agreement, and you stuck with it. The particular boundaries that you agreed to were ones that have apparently worked for you for the long term, and it's an interesting contribution to the discussion to suggest that these might work for others as well.

 

Having said that:

 

I don't believe it's as simple as just telling the OP to change his attitude at this stage in the game.

 

See, if your husband blatantly stepped over the barriers you had both clearly agreed to originally, wouldn't you feel betrayed? Irrespective of what those barriers are, and where different couples set them, the thing that breaks the relationship is when a spouse disregards that mutual agreement and goes and breaks the barriers anyway.

 

For the OP, the barrier is already broken. The basis of their marriage - whether you believe it is realistic or not, in a world where monogamy seems so hard - was fidelity. The OP's wife blatantly and knowingly broke that barrier without giving the OP the benefit of discussing or renegotiating it openly. The trust issue that has broken the relationship is in that blatant disregard for what had been their mutual agreement.

 

Again, I agree that it's a completely valid discussion to explore what boundaries a couple can mutually agree to, that are realistic to maintain and support in a healthy relationship in the long run. However, once a meeting of the minds is in place, and a spouse destroys the boundary, he/she also destroys the trust that was implicit in the relationship, so at that point, there's a lot more to it than telling the OP that just changing his mind and "letting her have it" will solve anything.

 

 

I completely agree. There's room for honest advice and disagreement, and even "tough love", but I think those who are lashing out at the OP, calling him weak, calling him names, and predicting his failure, are doing so because they are projecting - seeing him as a proxy for themselves and their own relatinship failures. This just makes their latent anger resurface, and they are pretty clearly redirecting their own self-loathing toward him.

 

I don't disagree, except to say that the "boundaries" are ones foisted upon us by society. We don't always live up to them in many areas of life, marriage is no different.