Are you serious? Really?

[wheelwright]

I'm sure this is what you truly would like to believe because it would make the betrayed party culpable by virtue of their "ego" rather than the sneaky liar by virtue of their snake-in-the-grass antics.

 

I'd like to see this referred to more.

[wheelwright]

Maybe that's because if cheating person actually talked it through with they partner (like, say, Gentlegirl) and get to some consensus, it would automatically not be cheating?

 

Murder actually isn't always frowned upon. Do you hate people who killed bin Laden or Hussein? I sure as hell don't.

 

I don't hate, but I think it was wrong to kill bin laden.

 

To go into a room and kill a man in front of innocent bystanders. I found the US stance of rightous retribution worrying.

 

Why was there no sadness in the speeches about the murder of a man? Why was that seen as good?

 

Revenge is a poor moral foreign policy, though very popular.

[wheelwright]

If she cheated on her husband, then obviously, she was lying to him while she cheated on him.

 

So why would she imply that she didn't lie to him ("I'm no better than those who lie"), just because she truthfully told him she didn't love him? Being truthful about not loving your husband doesn't give you license to lie to him about your extra-curricular sexual activities while cheating on him.

 

Well, I only lied once. The rest of the time I just didn't tell the truth - but I did tell the truth that was important to H -that I didn't love him.

 

What do you want me to have said? I have fallen in love with someone and it makes me realise you and I are really just scratching the surface?

 

That when we married I did so because I was so messed up and lacking in a sense of self that my compassion for you meant more to me at the time than anything for myself?

 

That I like you, but have never felt any kind of bond worth a M.

 

That I made a mistake, and I knew it straight away on the honeymoon.

 

No, far better not to tell.

[Severely Unamused]

Well, I only lied once. The rest of the time I just didn't tell the truth

I could make a very cheesy joke here, but I will resist the urge.

 

"Lying by omission". You can either take this as a compliment or an insult, but I think that you would make a very good lawyer, wheelwright. You don't work in that field do you?

[wheelwright]

The scope/size of the lie/deception.

 

No one is shattered by the "I lied about not gassing up the car the other night".

 

But they typically are shattered by the "I promised to be faithful and true to you, but I wasn't".

 

It doesn't take some form of incredible perception to see this.

 

Have you considered that you don't "get it" because you don't want to "get it"?

 

Our perception is most often colored by our own minds. You don't see the same things that others see because you choose to see them differently than others do. Everyone witnessed the same event...but INTERPRETED it differently in their own minds.

 

Owl, why is it differerent? Why is the interpretation so aghast?

 

Really, it's so understandable. I have no wants or not wants, except to understand. And I am the same person I was at 18 years old in this respect. If someone wants to be like that with another, then if that makes me feel bad, that's my bag.

 

It may mean I want to let them go. Or not.

 

I do not see the behaviour of a cheater especially badly. They will live and learn too. Actually most cheating is about boundaries and love and sex and working out how you want to play that. And how far you are willing to be guided in remaining faithful.

 

It just means you haven't settled down yet.

 

I dislike all the shame attached to it. TBH, judgements and insults make me feel bad in a way cheating never does.

 

I like it when people take actions to work things out.

 

I don't like it when people think they already have all the answers.

[John Michael Kane]

Well, I only lied once. The rest of the time I just didn't tell the truth - but I did tell the truth that was important to H -that I didn't love him.

 

What do you want me to have said? I have fallen in love with someone and it makes me realise you and I are really just scratching the surface?

 

But see that's not love, that's infatuation. If there were problems he refused to help fix with you then tell him that maybe the relationship is not working out, not that you want to have sex with someone else. And wasn't that ex-OM of yours married to someone who you were supposed to be friends with? Come on now.

 

That when we married I did so because I was so messed up and lacking in a sense of self that my compassion for you meant more to me at the time than anything for myself?

 

That I like you, but have never felt any kind of bond worth a M.

 

That I made a mistake, and I knew it straight away on the honeymoon.

So you never really loved your husband, meaning that your cheating was just the culmination of your amoral behavior.

 

No, far better not to tell.

And this is the rationalization you used to lie to him when the cheating was going on.

[wheelwright]

I could make a very cheesy joke here, but I will resist the urge.

 

"Lying by omission". You can either take this as a compliment or an insult, but I think that you would make a very good lawyer, wheelwright. You don't work in that field do you?

 

 

I think I get the would be joke. It's true though. During my A, I lied once. I said I had been out to a certain place alone, and I had been to another place with MOM. For a talk.

 

Compliment or insult? I think I try to see beyond cultural laws and into the truth of who paople are. Including myself.

 

I would have grown bored of the issue of deceit in As by now if I had worked out exactly how I feel about it.

 

We are all innocent really, so I would make a good defence lawyer. I would not damn anyone, and always look for reasons and mitigation.

[John Michael Kane]

I dislike all the shame attached to it. TBH, judgements and insults make me feel bad in a way cheating never does.

 

So cheating doesn't make you feel bad, but when someone says it's wrong and explains why, it's dubbed an insult and a blind judgement. You led him to think that you loved him and only him. You can't expect someone to not get angry when they find out they were played. That's unrealistic.

 

I like it when people take actions to work things out.

 

If I were you I would take heed to what you just stated above, because that was what you should've done before all of this happened.

 

I don't like it when people think they already have all the answers.

 

Yea well that's life.

[wheelwright]

Have you considered that perhaps Wheelright doesnt "get it" (as it pertains to your perception) because she just has a difference of opinion?

 

SC, it is clear to me I do have a difference of opinion.

 

I feel differently about the lying and deciet, partly becuase of the sheer hypocrisy in this line of argument.

 

I feel it's OK to have sex with people outside of a M if there is a problem in the M.

 

And Owl, that's not because I want that so I can feel good about myself. But you probably don't feel you can trust me on that. C'est la vie. Beautiful as it is.

[reboot]

I feel it's OK to have sex with people outside of a M if there is a problem in the M.

 

And I think that's perfectly acceptable, so long as the other person in the marriage is made aware of this and agrees with it, or at least has the opportunity to get out if they don't agree with it. We all deserve the truth if nothing else.

[wheelwright]

So cheating doesn't make you feel bad, but when someone says it's wrong and explains why, it's dubbed an insult and a blind judgement. You led him to think that you loved him and only him. You can't expect someone to not get angry when they find out they were played. That's unrealistic.

 

 

 

If I were you I would take heed to what you just stated above, because that was what you should've done before all of this happened.

 

 

 

Yea well that's life.

 

Being played can be a subjective stance for how you are treated unless you know someone tretaed you like that on purpose.

 

I did not play my H.

 

Some people are players and do so in a natural and subconscious way. I am not like that.

 

No-one is made of cardboard to me. But the way I treated my H during my A is the closest I have come to this. I allowed that shadow of myself to come out. I am glad I am not someone who is like that all the time.

[Severely Unamused]

I feel differently about the lying and deciet, partly becuase of the sheer hypocrisy in this line of argument.

 

Expand on this please. Or link me to where this point has already been expanded upon.

 

Appreciated.

[wheelwright]

But see that's not love, that's infatuation. If there were problems he refused to help fix with you then tell him that maybe the relationship is not working out, not that you want to have sex with someone else. And wasn't that ex-OM of yours married to someone who you were supposed to be friends with? Come on now.

 

So you never really loved your husband, meaning that your cheating was just the culmination of your amoral behavior.

 

And this is the rationalization you used to lie to him when the cheating was going on.

 

The way things presented, I knew I didn't want to have sex with H, and I knew I wanted to have sex with MOM. I was not friends with AP's W.

 

In all honesty, I found these feelings hard to cope with. I avoided MOM for many months, and I tried to talk to H without stating the at that time fantasy infidelity I had going on.

 

I am not sure bolded responds in any way to anything I have said. Was it meant to be inflammatory or only aggrieved?

 

I have been through a whole heap of self-examination and potential self-hatred re my A. I like to be forced to look again, because I realise I do not hate myself, or even think I behaved that badly. I was unwise. I was a fool. I hurt my H, but then I had bent over backwards trying not to, and that's what took me where I went.

 

I learnt you have to be yourself and trust your feelings and be honext about it all. But I didn't know that at the time.

[John Michael Kane]

Being played can be a subjective stance for how you are treated unless you know someone tretaed you like that on purpose.

That's semantics.

 

If it was not on purpose then it's not "being played."

 

I did not play my H.

Then what is it then? Some innocent white lie?

 

Some people are players and do so in a natural and subconscious way. I am not like that.

People are players because they choose to be.

[John Michael Kane]

The way things presented, I knew I didn't want to have sex with H, and I knew I wanted to have sex with MOM. I was not friends with AP's W.

 

In all honesty, I found these feelings hard to cope with. I avoided MOM for many months, and I tried to talk to H without stating the at that time fantasy infidelity I had going on.

 

I am not sure bolded responds in any way to anything I have said. Was it meant to be inflammatory or only aggrieved?

 

I have been through a whole heap of self-examination and potential self-hatred re my A. I like to be forced to look again, because I realise I do not hate myself, or even think I behaved that badly. I was unwise. I was a fool. I hurt my H, but then I had bent over backwards trying not to, and that's what took me where I went.

 

I learnt you have to be yourself and trust your feelings and be honext about it all. But I didn't know that at the time.

 

....................

[wheelwright]

Expand on this please. Or link me to where this point has already been expanded upon.

 

Appreciated.

 

Lying can be good or bad. It can be necessary or fun. I think a person in a dead M who finds union with an AP outside is more honest in their life than someone who just dies.

 

We all lie all the time. We deceive at every turn. Make up is a lie. Shaving is. Every which way you cover up who you are is a lie. Every time you submerge the anger in you is a lie. Every Christmas is a lie, in many ways. Every time you tell yourself you can cope when you worry you cannot.

 

Every person who says a cheater is bad for their deceit but then tells their friend they are doing OK when they think they are losing it badly is a hypocrite.

 

Deceit is wired in to all intelligent beings. We use it to try to be good.

 

Good deceit is good, bad deceit, with intent to make someone feel bad, is bad.

 

Other deceit is either cultural or selfish, and entirely understandable. I can see no reason to separate out infidelity deceit from these other forms.

 

That's pretty much my premise for saying most haters of infidelity deceit are hypocrites.

 

I'm sure I'm a hypocrite too, but I don't hate anyone or anything except intolerance.

[wheelwright]

You're lying to yourself if you think anyone but another liar would buy your brand of hogwash.

 

--Pat F

 

You're no doubt wiser than me.

[Owl]

SC, it is clear to me I do have a difference of opinion.

 

I feel differently about the lying and deciet, partly becuase of the sheer hypocrisy in this line of argument.

 

I feel it's OK to have sex with people outside of a M if there is a problem in the M.

 

And Owl, that's not because I want that so I can feel good about myself. But you probably don't feel you can trust me on that. C'est la vie. Beautiful as it is.

 

Did/does your husband...who shared that marriage with you...agree that going outside the marriage for sex was ok since your marriage was apparently troubled?

[Severely Unamused]

Lying can be good or bad. It can be necessary or fun. I think a person in a dead M who finds union with an AP outside is more honest in their life than someone who just dies.

 

We all lie all the time. We deceive at every turn. Make up is a lie. Shaving is. Every which way you cover up who you are is a lie. Every time you submerge the anger in you is a lie. Every Christmas is a lie, in many ways. Every time you tell yourself you can cope when you worry you cannot.

 

Every person who says a cheater is bad for their deceit but then tells their friend they are doing OK when they think they are losing it badly is a hypocrite.

 

Deceit is wired in to all intelligent beings. We use it to try to be good.

 

Good deceit is good, bad deceit, with intent to make someone feel bad, is bad.

 

Other deceit is either cultural or selfish, and entirely understandable. I can see no reason to separate out infidelity deceit from these other forms.

 

That's pretty much my premise for saying most haters of infidelity deceit are hypocrites.

 

I'm sure I'm a hypocrite too, but I don't hate anyone or anything except intolerance.

 

I can see the distinction. I'm sure you can too, on some level.

 

Look too much at the big picture, and you ignore the minute details.

 

Nonetheless, I can see that this isn't going anywhere productive. Have a good one.

[John Michael Kane]

You're lying to yourself if you think anyone but another liar would buy your brand of hogwash.

 

--Pat F

 

I second this.

[rafallus]

IMO WW is driven by "convenience" in all her arguments and viewpoints. My question about murder seems off-topic, but actually solidified me in aforementioned belief.

 

1. "BS only hurts because of ego" - well, it sure is a convenient argument to say "hey, you only hurt because you have an oversized ego, get over it!"

 

2. Murder thing - it's convenient, how it automatically you assigned killing them as revenge (probably of emotional shade), and say "I'm above that", when it could be just a cold, logical realization "This man is a threat and must be eliminated", which cannot however be spun around as conveniently.

 

Note: this isn't equivalent of saying "Killing bin Laden was the right thing, and everyone who thinks otherwise is wrong" - that's a completely different debate, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. Argument was meant to expose, what I consider an underlying motive specifically behind received response.

 

3. "I feel it's OK to have sex with people outside of a M if there is a problem in the M." - what about an inconvenient part of addressing issue beforehand? Like, say, Gentlegirl in other thread did it, and you can say she wasn't cheating at all.

 

I think I try to see beyond cultural laws and into the truth of who paople are. Including myself.

You will never achieve that. Not because you're particularily twisted/biased, etc. Because everyone is.

 

You'll see an image warped through your personal biases, and all you can do is confront it with images others seen through their own biases. Good luck finding the truth.

 

but I don't hate anyone or anything except intolerance.

Out of curiosity, how far this "intolerance" thing goes? Do you tolerate, say, being bullied, because you hate intolerance, and following that logic, you must tolerate bullying? Or is it somehow different? Edited August 6, 2011 by rafallus

[donnamaybe]

I'd like to see this referred to more.

 

All in the name of assuaging guilt.

[donnamaybe]

I don't hate, but I think it was wrong to kill bin laden.

 

To go into a room and kill a man in front of innocent bystanders. I found the US stance of rightous retribution worrying.

 

Why was there no sadness in the speeches about the murder of a man? Why was that seen as good?

 

Revenge is a poor moral foreign policy, though very popular.

 

It is clear that none of your loved ones were crushed alive in thousands of pounds of searing metal.

[donnamaybe]

Well, I only lied once. The rest of the time I just didn't tell the truth - but I did tell the truth that was important to H -that I didn't love him.

 

What do you want me to have said? I have fallen in love with someone and it makes me realise you and I are really just scratching the surface?

 

That when we married I did so because I was so messed up and lacking in a sense of self that my compassion for you meant more to me at the time than anything for myself?

 

That I like you, but have never felt any kind of bond worth a M.

 

That I made a mistake, and I knew it straight away on the honeymoon.

 

No, far better not to tell.

Better for you, of course.

[donnamaybe]

Did/does your husband...who shared that marriage with you...agree that going outside the marriage for sex was ok since your marriage was apparently troubled?

 

Oh, come on. You know that is of no consequence.