Are you serious? Really?

[Spark1111]

True. I could have told him when I had the feelings before I acted on them. And he'd have been devastated. But his ego would have been more in tact. I should have played it to care for his ego.

 

No, take love out of the equation. People who care and RESPECT one another would not hurt each other by lying to them, whether it be about feelings for another, the money in the joint account, or the weather on Tuesday.

 

Friends do this. Colleagues too. Acquaintances, sometimes. To think you are sparing someone's ego by telling them you are no longer in love with them, is, IMO, cowardly and oh-so-destructive to that person's EGO.

 

It's a slow erosion, like some cancers; insidious, self-serving and often, still terminal.

[StoneCold]

I feel differently about the lying and deciet, partly becuase of the sheer hypocrisy in this line of argument.

 

 

I'm with you on this

[StoneCold]

It is clear that none of your loved ones were crushed alive in thousands of pounds of searing metal.

 

"justification " is very convenient for you isnt it?

[LifesontheUp]

Well, I only lied once. The rest of the time I just didn't tell the truth - but I did tell the truth that was important to H -that I didn't love him.

 

Ever heard of lying by omission? The opposite of truth is a lie.

 

So following this train of thought, it would be okay for me to steal from someone close as long as they didn't know.

 

 

I could have told him when I had the feelings before I acted on them. And he'd have been devastated. But his ego would have been more in tact. I should have played it to care for his ego..

 

No you should have been respectful to him and honest - whether you loved him or not.

[LifesontheUp]

"justification " is very convenient for you isnt it?

 

And on the note of justification - that seems to be a very common theme in the cheaters handbook

[StoneCold]

And on the note of justification - that seems to be a very common theme in the cheaters handbook

 

Its BSers that use "justification" (or lack there of) to attack people who have cheated....now heres one of those very same BSers "justifying" "reprehensible" behaviour. What a joke

[Severely Unamused]

IMO WW is driven by "convenience" in all her arguments and viewpoints. My question about murder seems off-topic, but actually solidified me in aforementioned belief.

So, if that is the case, then why the need for a complex philosophical system, that can apparently be pulled apart by random people on the internet?

 

Whatever...

[seren]

And I think that's perfectly acceptable, so long as the other person in the marriage is made aware of this and agrees with it, or at least has the opportunity to get out if they don't agree with it. We all deserve the truth if nothing else.

 

I agree with this Reboot, makes a whole lot of sense.

[wheelwright]

IMO WW is driven by "convenience" in all her arguments and viewpoints. My question about murder seems off-topic, but actually solidified me in aforementioned belief.

 

1. "BS only hurts because of ego" - well, it sure is a convenient argument to say "hey, you only hurt because you have an oversized ego, get over it!"

 

2. Murder thing - it's convenient, how it automatically you assigned killing them as revenge (probably of emotional shade), and say "I'm above that", when it could be just a cold, logical realization "This man is a threat and must be eliminated", which cannot however be spun around as conveniently.

 

You will never achieve that. Not because you're particularily twisted/biased, etc. Because everyone is.

 

You'll see an image warped through your personal biases, and all you can do is confront it with images others seen through their own biases. Good luck finding the truth.

 

Out of curiosity, how far this "intolerance" thing goes? Do you tolerate, say, being bullied, because you hate intolerance, and following that logic, you must tolerate bullying? Or is it somehow different?

 

The feelings I had pre, during, and post A were the most inconvenient imaginable. Anyway, this sweeping statement doesn't ring true to me, but it's your interpretation.

 

I agree with first bolded - and in part the voice I present here is one of many possible. But it is the one that makes most sense to me.

 

Second bolded, good question. I don't see behaviour that causes suffering as a sound path. Bullying is such, as is cheating. However, bullying is done with an intent to make someone suffer (cheating CAN be like this, but in my case wasn't).

 

That is one difference.

 

There are others, and cheating can be a stepping stone to find a footing in a happier set of Rs in someone's life.

 

I would say the attacker/victim dynamic in bullying is usually different in cheater/BS. The ways in which this is so could fill an essay.

 

It has been said on this board, to much BS kerfuffle, that the spouses have sometimes let things in the M slide before cheating occurs. Some people in M are lonely but remain committed. It's hard. I find cheating in this circumstance more understandable than the wanton humiliation of another human being (as in bullying) for a reason that rests in one individual. It's part of the M that things got lost, not just the cheater. (Not always the case, I know).

 

For these reasons, I would feel happier continuing a R with someone who cheated than someone who bullied me.

 

But I would try to tolerate the bully. I may not want them in my life though.

 

Then again, my Mum is a bully in some quite insidious ways. I have not turned my back on her, despite the fact she has hurt all the other people I love in my family with her bullying, born of a lack of self-esteem.

 

It's the way she is. She needs help, and I try to help her.

 

I couldn't live with her though!

[Kitsune77]

[QUOTE=wheelwright;3552012]Lying can be good or bad. It can be necessary or fun. I think a person in a dead M who finds union with an AP outside is more honest in their life than someone who just dies.

 

We all lie all the time. We deceive at every turn. Make up is a lie. Shaving is. Every which way you cover up who you are is a lie. Every time you submerge the anger in you is a lie. Every Christmas is a lie, in many ways. Every time you tell yourself you can cope when you worry you cannot.

 

Every person who says a cheater is bad for their deceit but then tells their friend they are doing OK when they think they are losing it badly is a hypocrite.

 

Deceit is wired in to all intelligent beings. We use it to try to be good.

 

Good deceit is good, bad deceit, with intent to make someone feel bad, is bad.

 

Other deceit is either cultural or selfish, and entirely understandable. I can see no reason to separate out infidelity deceit from these other forms.

 

That's pretty much my premise for saying most haters of infidelity deceit are hypocrites.

 

I'm sure I'm a hypocrite too, but I don't hate anyone or anything except intolerance.

 

You are a very wise woman. The first step to compassionate honest interactions with others, is to have it for yourself.

It takes immense courage to do both.:)

[rafallus]

@WW

 

(I think) I see. I have no further follow-up question, and while (of course) I beg to differ, since I'm not out there to convert anybody, I'll take my leave.

[Kitsune77]

If you think about it deeply, most expectation of modern romantic love and marriage is ego based.

[Severely Unamused]

If you think about it deeply, most expectation of modern romantic love and marriage is ego based.

 

Pretty much everything is ego based to a certain degree, right?

 

Including posting your opinions on this forum.

[Owl]

Ww, you never answered my question. Does/did your husband agree that going outside of the marriage was acceptable/understandable since your marriage was yroubled at the time?

 

A marriage is a joining, an agreemant between two people. Both should agree on the terms and conditions in it...and one cannot unilaterally change those conditions...

 

To do so is the height of selfishness and the epitome of self- serving behavior.

[David Cain]

The feelings I had pre, during, and post A were the most inconvenient imaginable. Anyway, this sweeping statement doesn't ring true to me, but it's your interpretation.

 

I agree with first bolded - and in part the voice I present here is one of many possible. But it is the one that makes most sense to me.

 

Second bolded, good question. I don't see behaviour that causes suffering as a sound path. Bullying is such, as is cheating. However, bullying is done with an intent to make someone suffer (cheating CAN be like this, but in my case wasn't).

 

That is one difference.

 

There are others, and cheating can be a stepping stone to find a footing in a happier set of Rs in someone's life.

 

I would say the attacker/victim dynamic in bullying is usually different in cheater/BS. The ways in which this is so could fill an essay.

 

It has been said on this board, to much BS kerfuffle, that the spouses have sometimes let things in the M slide before cheating occurs. Some people in M are lonely but remain committed. It's hard. I find cheating in this circumstance more understandable than the wanton humiliation of another human being (as in bullying) for a reason that rests in one individual. It's part of the M that things got lost, not just the cheater. (Not always the case, I know).

 

For these reasons, I would feel happier continuing a R with someone who cheated than someone who bullied me.

 

But I would try to tolerate the bully. I may not want them in my life though.

 

Then again, my Mum is a bully in some quite insidious ways. I have not turned my back on her, despite the fact she has hurt all the other people I love in my family with her bullying, born of a lack of self-esteem.

 

It's the way she is. She needs help, and I try to help her.

 

I couldn't live with her though!

 

How can one be a bully if you believe that it's okay to cheat when there are problems in the marriage? That's abuse in it's own right. If you say that you will never accept responsibility for the downfall of your M, that cannot be rationalized with your concept of "naturally and subconsciously lying." You know what you've been doing from the start. To say otherwise and go off-topic about lying in general shows that you're lying yourself and your situation, in your own paragraph!

[donnamaybe]

No, take love out of the equation. People who care and RESPECT one another would not hurt each other by lying to them, whether it be about feelings for another, the money in the joint account, or the weather on Tuesday.

 

Friends do this. Colleagues too. Acquaintances, sometimes. To think you are sparing someone's ego by telling them you are no longer in love with them, is, IMO, cowardly and oh-so-destructive to that person's EGO.

 

It's a slow erosion, like some cancers; insidious, self-serving and often, still terminal.

Absolutely!

 

If I were to entrust a good friend in a money issue and they screwed me over, it would hurt. Actually, there would be more emotions than just hurt. There would be anger at having been stolen from. There would be hurt because of a broken trust; a bond we shared that we no longer do as I would no longer be able to trust my friend. It wouldn't have a damn thing to do with ego. That's just an argument to push culpability onto the BS by making them somewhere "damaged" in that they have too big an ego, therefore, they are hurt because of it rather than by something the cheater did.

[donnamaybe]

So, if that is the case, then why the need for a complex philosophical system, that can apparently be pulled apart by random people on the internet?

 

Whatever...

Because it makes the person delivering the jusitifcation filled verbage seem very intelligent.

[silktricks]

It has been said on this board, to much BS kerfuffle, that the spouses have sometimes let things in the M slide before cheating occurs.

 

The "reason" for the kerfuffle (as you put it ) could be that usually it's not just the BS who has let things, slide. Usually it's both people. But then the WS uses the slide as an excuse. Both the BS (who generally speaking has not cheated) and the WS (who has) are in the same unsatisfying marriage. When it's then made out that the state of the marriage is 1. the reason for cheating and 2. all the fault of the BS - well, yeah, most people will get a little "kerfuflled"...

[bentnotbroken]

The "reason" for the kerfuffle (as you put it ) could be that usually it's not just the BS who has let things, slide. Usually it's both people. But then the WS uses the slide as an excuse. Both the BS (who generally speaking has not cheated) and the WS (who has) are in the same unsatisfying marriage. When it's then made out that the state of the marriage is 1. the reason for cheating and 2. all the fault of the BS - well, yeah, most people will get a little "kerfuflled"...

 

 

So true. I was in a sexually unfulfilled marriage for years. I brought my concerns up more than once. I was always told he didn't have the problem, I did. I was told on regular basis how lazy and unambitious I was. Never mind I was a SAHM until the last one went to school and did everything on my own since he didn't want his children in daycare and traveled a great deal for his job(which let him cheat with greater ease. I couldn't know what he was doing on the road). I was told that I was boring though he would go days on end without talking to me...about anything.

 

He told OW that it was me who was always having issues. He would even send me an email that would say something mean and cruel. I would respond, then he would show it to her without his initial post or a severely edited version(yes, I have the emails). He would get in front of friends and family and say what I would or would not do(sexually and otherwise) and yes I would try to defend myself by being as low and anal as he was. In the end it was all a set up to keep me where he wanted. On the verge of suicide and giving him his daily dose of self esteem. I was good at it to. If he pushed the right button he could break me down for days even weeks.

 

So yes, I the BS did things to hurt him in the marriage. He was defiantly dismissed in many areas including sex. I found it difficult to get intimate with a person who had called me stupid, lazy, bad parent just because his dick was hard. It became a vicious circle. He would get angry and act out, I would retaliate and act out. There was no end....until I found out who he really was. All the marital problems were not my fault. I didn't create the hostile atmosphere alone and I certainly didn't feed into the ill will alone. The mess was created by two people, but it only took one to add an additional load of crap to the heap and then blame me for it.

 

If he had truely given a damn about the OW's family, the OW, his children or himself(leave me completely out of the equation) he would not have put so many people in the position to be hurt and to hurt for years. You can't change that with the lame reason of "so in so did this to me first", "my needs weren't being met" or(wait for it) "BS forced me to do this". Bull hockey.

[silktricks]

So true. I was in a sexually unfulfilled marriage for years. I brought my concerns up more than once. I was always told he didn't have the problem, I did. I was told on regular basis how lazy and unambitious I was. Never mind I was a SAHM until the last one went to school and did everything on my own since he didn't want his children in daycare and traveled a great deal for his job(which let him cheat with greater ease. I couldn't know what he was doing on the road). I was told that I was boring though he would go days on end without talking to me...about anything.

 

He told OW that it was me who was always having issues. He would even send me an email that would say something mean and cruel. I would respond, then he would show it to her without his initial post or a severely edited version(yes, I have the emails). He would get in front of friends and family and say what I would or would not do(sexually and otherwise) and yes I would try to defend myself by being as low and anal as he was. In the end it was all a set up to keep me where he wanted. On the verge of suicide and giving him his daily dose of self esteem. I was good at it to. If he pushed the right button he could break me down for days even weeks.

 

So yes, I the BS did things to hurt him in the marriage. He was defiantly dismissed in many areas including sex. I found it difficult to get intimate with a person who had called me stupid, lazy, bad parent just because his dick was hard. It became a vicious circle. He would get angry and act out, I would retaliate and act out. There was no end....until I found out who he really was. All the marital problems were not my fault. I didn't create the hostile atmosphere alone and I certainly didn't feed into the ill will alone. The mess was created by two people, but it only took one to add an additional load of crap to the heap and then blame me for it.

 

If he had truely given a damn about the OW's family, the OW, his children or himself(leave me completely out of the equation) he would not have put so many people in the position to be hurt and to hurt for years. You can't change that with the lame reason of "so in so did this to me first", "my needs weren't being met" or(wait for it) "BS forced me to do this". Bull hockey.

 

And you are a great and strong woman who no longer will take anyone bangin' on your self-esteem. Go BENT!!!

 

(I think maybe you were married to my first husband... :sick: :lmao: ... Ya think there's someplace where they're mass-produced? Manipulators R US??? )

[bentnotbroken]

And you are a great and strong woman who no longer will take anyone bangin' on your self-esteem. Go BENT!!!

 

(I think maybe you were married to my first husband... :sick: :lmao: ... Ya think there's someplace where they're mass-produced? Manipulators R US??? )

 

 

Nope. I think they drank too much azz*r*ade(lemon flavored)

[StoneCold]

The "reason" for the kerfuffle (as you put it ) could be that usually it's not just the BS who has let things, slide. Usually it's both people. But then the WS uses the slide as an excuse. Both the BS (who generally speaking has not cheated) and the WS (who has) are in the same unsatisfying marriage. When it's then made out that the state of the marriage is 1. the reason for cheating and 2. all the fault of the BS - well, yeah, most people will get a little "kerfuflled"...

 

 

You are right...the demise of a marriage usually is attributable to both parties for a myriad of things. But why does one get a "pass" simply because the other cheated?

 

What I find questionable is its only when one party cheats that the other party wakes up BUT only scrutinizes the cheating. All of a sudden poor "justification" and "rationalization" conveniently come out of the woodwork; but never before and never for the other failures in a marriage.

 

"I know I hurt my spouse during this failure of a marriage but they cheated so that now excuses me and my prior actions...I'm the poor victim here" .... makes no sense to me.

 

Its like picking up a Gloc and going to a gun fight and then complaining because you got shot by a girl with a Tec-9....."wahhh shes fully auto and I'm only semi"

 

You send sh*t out to sea and sh*t will come and dock at your port.

Edited August 8, 2011 by StoneCold

[Spark1111]

You are right...the demise of a marriage usually is attributable to both parties for a myriad of things. But why does one get a "pass" simply because the other cheated?

 

What I find questionable is its only when one party cheats that the other party wakes up BUT only scrutinizes the cheating. All of a sudden poor "justification" and "rationalization" conveniently come out of the woodwork; but never before and never for the other failures in a marriage.

 

"I know I hurt my spouse during this failure of a marriage but they cheated so that now excuses me and my prior actions...I'm the poor victim here" .... makes no sense to me.

 

Its like picking up a Gloc and going to a gun fight and then complaining because you got shot by a girl with a Tec-9....."wahhh shes fully auto and I'm only semi"

 

You send sh*t out to sea and sh*t will come and dock at your port.

 

Not if you don't accept it. Not if you try to fix it. Not if you say, in an environment of trust and respect, this is a deal breaker for me. If this need is not met, I will seek it elsewhere. It that is not okay with you, let's divorce.

 

It is NOT about being a scorekeeper, as in, you were mean to me last Tuesday, so I will retaliate now. Or, you never liked my parents, so now I will less kind to your parents, family, friends.

 

That's schoolyard. How about this thinking, though it may be waaay tooo self-sacrificing for some: If there is a problem here, I caused it. If there is a problem here, how can WE fix it?

 

And if only one party cares enough to try, it will not work. So given that the inevitable result may be divorce, then divorce before you cheat.

 

It was like pre-affair, my husband was ALWAYS complaining, criticizing and nit-picking me for things outside of my control. I did not recognize depression in this form. If I could fix it or change it, I did. But it was never good enough, and it was never reciprocated.

 

Why? Because as long as it was all my fault, he never had to admit or do the hard work of introspecting change within himself first. It did become a vicious cycle, one we, thankfully, laugh about now.

 

But if I was in the same "loveless" marriage, why didn't I cheat? It would have been sooooo easy.

 

I went to therapy instead. He would not.

[Memphis Raines]

You are right...the demise of a marriage usually is attributable to both parties for a myriad of things. But why does one get a "pass" simply because the other cheated?

 

they don't. I think everyone knows it takes 2 to make a marriage work.

 

but when one goes outside the marriage and f***s someone else, its a pretty big deal. This is the infidelity board. you'll get all kinds of blame shifting over in OM/OW. and because of this I think you know the BS doesn't get a pass.

 

I could say the same thing about that part of the forum. Why does the cheater get to justify what they did when there isn't any excuse?

 

 

What I find questionable is its only when one party cheats that the other party wakes up BUT only scrutinizes the cheating.

 

its because you cheated:o

 

 

All of a sudden poor "justification" and "rationalization" conveniently come out of the woodwork; but never before and never for the other failures in a marriage.

 

because there is no excuse for cheating. it both parties need to work on things, then work on them. but you don't get to go out and have sex with other women and say, "if you would have tended to the marriage, i wouldn't have cheated". you work on the marriage. everyone has their problems and nobody is perfect. But when you go out and cheat, again, thats a pretty big deal.

 

 

"I know I hurt my spouse during this failure of a marriage but they cheated so that now excuses me and my prior actions...I'm the poor victim here" .... makes no sense to me.

 

it makes no sense to you because nobody is excusing their prior actions.

 

But we all know that you have said before that you don't get exactly what you want, so you go out and get it.

 

So I guess it begs the question, why is someone like you married in the first place?

 

 

You send sh*t out to sea and sh*t will come and dock at your port.

 

well since you are sending alot of "sh*t" out in the form of cheating on your wife over and over, I'd say your port is going to be overwhelmed with mutiny someday soon.

[Owl]

You are right...the demise of a marriage usually is attributable to both parties for a myriad of things. But why does one get a "pass" simply because the other cheated?

 

What I find questionable is its only when one party cheats that the other party wakes up BUT only scrutinizes the cheating. All of a sudden poor "justification" and "rationalization" conveniently come out of the woodwork; but never before and never for the other failures in a marriage.

 

"I know I hurt my spouse during this failure of a marriage but they cheated so that now excuses me and my prior actions...I'm the poor victim here" .... makes no sense to me.

 

Its like picking up a Gloc and going to a gun fight and then complaining because you got shot by a girl with a Tec-9....."wahhh shes fully auto and I'm only semi"

 

You send sh*t out to sea and sh*t will come and dock at your port.

 

In my case, our marriage was great except for the last year leading up to her emotional affair.

 

That last year, she went haywire. Nothing changed on my part...everything changed on hers. I did everything I could think of to try to fix things, to get her to the table to work with me on fixing things.

 

Sometimes, the BS DOES try to do everything that they can to address the issues...