Are you serious? Really?

[silktricks]

You are right...the demise of a marriage usually is attributable to both parties for a myriad of things. But why does one get a "pass" simply because the other cheated?

 

What I find questionable is its only when one party cheats that the other party wakes up BUT only scrutinizes the cheating. All of a sudden poor "justification" and "rationalization" conveniently come out of the woodwork; but never before and never for the other failures in a marriage.

 

"I know I hurt my spouse during this failure of a marriage but they cheated so that now excuses me and my prior actions...I'm the poor victim here" .... makes no sense to me.

 

Its like picking up a Gloc and going to a gun fight and then complaining because you got shot by a girl with a Tec-9....."wahhh shes fully auto and I'm only semi"

 

You send sh*t out to sea and sh*t will come and dock at your port.

 

I don't believe I said the BS should get a pass - just that the problems in the marriage shouldn't be blamed solely upon the BS.

 

(and I just read what Spark and Owl posted - - that, too)

[Memphis Raines]

In my case, our marriage was great except for the last year leading up to her emotional affair.

 

That last year, she went haywire. Nothing changed on my part.

 

come on now. someone that cheats and feels entitled to do so isn't going to believe that for a minute.

[Kitsune77]

Pretty much everything is ego based to a certain degree, right?

 

Including posting your opinions on this forum.

 

Not nessesarily, it depends on the intent in posting.

[Severely Unamused]

 

Not nessesarily, it depends on the intent in posting.

 

Right, so tell me what the intent of posting this on the infidelity forum was. Please.

 

If you think about it deeply, most expectation of modern romantic love and marriage is ego based.

[Kitsune77]

Well, I have been a betrayed spouse, both times to the only 2 men I have ever made a commitment too, and also am currently having an affair, so I

Feel I have some experience with ifedility, from both sides. Which doesn't necessarily equate to an ego stance, as I am not trying to prove right or wrong, or convince anyone of anything. Simply stating my currant viewpoint:)

[Severely Unamused]

Well, I have been a betrayed spouse, both times to the only 2 men I have ever made a commitment too, and also am currently having an affair, so I

Feel I have some experience with ifedility, from both sides. Which doesn't necessarily equate to an ego stance, as I am not trying to prove right or wrong, or convince anyone of anything. Simply stating my currant viewpoint:)

 

Alright. I'm going to parrot rafallus since I find him quite quotable.

 

(I think) I see. I have no further follow-up question, and while (of course) I beg to differ, since I'm not out there to convert anybody, I'll take my leave.

[StoneCold]

I don't believe I said the BS should get a pass - just that the problems in the marriage shouldn't be blamed solely upon the BS.

 

Nobody is saying that is should....

 

Heres what happens...a spouse cheats...then the BS goes off and says "Our marriage is destryoed because you cheated" (which in many cases is wrong)... Then the WS retaliates with the failures the BS did because they feel that the marriage was killed a long time ago because of what the BS did (which is partly wrong)...and then the BS says "Hes blaming this allon me"

 

 

its a breakdown in communication that goes nowhere

[Owl]

Or it happens like it did in my case...

 

Last year of the marriage goes bad, after 17 years of good marriage. Wife basically goes haywire. Stops normal interaction with the kids, with me, etc...

 

I TRIED to reach her every way that I could...but it wasn't until she hit bottom that there would have been any hope that I could reach her (not that I knew that then, mind you).

 

Finally, it all comes to a head over the last three months or so during which her EA formed and blossomed.

 

D-day. Wife now forced with a decision.

 

She initially "makes a choice" to be with me (in reality, at that particular moment she didn't have any real choices but didn't see that). Over the next 2-3 weeks, she waffles...until finally she's REALLY forced to make a decision to either stay and invest in the marriage, or leave to explore life without me.

 

She makes her choice.

 

During MC over those last few weeks, and even for the next couple of months, she constantly complains about how she'd been unhappy for so long, etc... But I couldn't see it. No evidence of it when I go back over our marriage/family life as hard as I can. Finally...I figure out she's "re-writing our marital history"...a common occurrence with a spouse who cheated.

 

Interestingly enough, as we worked through things, we found her view of our marriage changing over time...slowly starting to look more and more like it really was.

 

Not all roses. Not that she was the source of the problems...or that I was. There were indeed things that needed fixing in our relationship.

 

But...she refused to address them until things got to the point that they did. I was willing...I tried.

 

We learned to communicate better. She learned that she had to tell me when she was unhappy, and why. I had to learn to ask. To listen for it. And, we had to learn to do that in the opposite direction as well.

 

The state of our marriage....was actually pretty darned good. The real issues that led to our situation were her untreated depression, misuse of online gaming, and poor knowledge of 'boundaries' on interactions between friends. My 'mistakes' were poor communication skills when talking about emotional subjects with my wife. Giving her the feeling that I was siding with the kids when I attempted to resolve conflicts in our family.

 

The ultimate 'cause' of her choice to cheat was pretty much all on her.

 

Afterwards, we both had to work pretty hard to sort through things and figure out what our next steps were from there.

[silktricks]

Nobody is saying that is should....

 

Heres what happens...a spouse cheats...then the BS goes off and says "Our marriage is destryoed because you cheated" (which in many cases is wrong)... Then the WS retaliates with the failures the BS did because they feel that the marriage was killed a long time ago because of what the BS did (which is partly wrong)...and then the BS says "Hes blaming this allon me"

 

 

its a breakdown in communication that goes nowhere

I would disagree with your analysis. Probably not in every case, but in many.

 

Here's what happens (to use your phrase )... a spouse cheats, the BS finds out and in shock says "what have you done?", the spouse who cheated says "if you wouldn't have done XYZ, I wouldn't have cheated (in an effort to blame shift their actions)".

 

At least here on LS, it seems that the WS is the first one calling fault. The OW also generally "blames" the BS for the breakdown in the marriage that led to the affair. To be clear, I think the BS generally speaking (though probably not always) has equal fault with the breakdown of the marriage. They do not hold all blame, though, and they hold zero blame for the choice the WS made to cheat.

 

Of course, that's just my opinion, and you are perfectly entitled to hold your own.

Edited August 9, 2011 by silktricks

[StoneCold]

I would disagree with your analysis. Probably not in every case, but in many.

 

Here's what happens (to use your phrase )... a spouse cheats, the BS finds out and in shock says "what have you done?", the spouse who cheated says "if you wouldn't have done XYZ, I wouldn't have cheated (in an effort to blame shift their actions)".

 

At least here on LS, it seems that the WS is the first one calling fault. The OW also generally "blames" the BS for the breakdown in the marriage that led to the affair. To be clear, I think the BS generally speaking (though probably not always) has equal fault with the breakdown of the marriage. They do not hold all blame, though, and they hold zero blame for the choice the WS made to cheat.

 

Of course, that's just my opinion, and you are perfectly entitled to hold your own.

 

"What have you done?"... I dunno silky thats not what I read around here for the most part....

 

I read a lot of "you/he/she destroyed our marriage" or..."look what you/he/she threw away..."...."this (as in the destruction of the marriage) is all their/his/her fault" quite a bit....thats blame shifting as well if what we are talking about is the destruction/poisoning of a marriage (because thats the ultimate price here).

 

Look, I realize that we are only getting half a story here....which is why I question a lot of these "definitive" remarks and statements. Most of these situations here to me are a debatable shade of grey (when looking at it on a macro level).

 

My point is...for the most part a marriage takes two to succeed or fail. Sure sometimes one person goes on a tear and screws it all up but generally speaking? more often than not? I put my money on the former. I may come across one sided but thats because the other side is speaking loud and clear here; its like a mob mentality.

 

I'm just trying to add some balance by way of showing the other side.Thus somewhat putting things into perspective. You can do with it what you will but to many BSers here, know that just because thats how you feel that doesnt make it blanket truth for all.

Edited August 9, 2011 by StoneCold

[donnamaybe]

When my ex showed his true colors, i.e. selfish, self centered anus, I got a divorce after it became clear he wasn't willing to continue M counseling (after the counselor began to focus on his selfish behaviors). I did NOT sneak around and lie numerous times endlessly. I got a frickin' divorce and dealt with it. Like an adult.

[Owl]

My point is...for the most part a marriage takes two to succeed or fail. Sure sometimes one person goes on a tear and screws it all up but generally speaking? more often than not? I put my money on the former. I may come across one sided but thats because the other side is speaking loud and clear here; its like a mob mentality.

 

I'm of the opinion that it takes two to make a marriage succeed...which means it only takes one or the other to not to do their part to make it fail.

 

It CAN be both. Or it could be one or the other.

 

Each person needs to take a look at their own relationship and sort out where the breakdown is...honestly.

[Kitsune77]

well when one tells the forum they don't believe monogamy is natural, it stands to reason that they don't practice monogamy, and has cheated before.

 

if we are wrong and you haven't cheated quite a few times, then just let us know

 

I have never cheated. You may belive something is not natural, and still go along with it, as Nyrias so eloqantly pointed out.

 

Also I have been with a serial cheater in the past, who said he valued monogamy, so what people say, and what they do are often very differant.

 

I must say, I find the generalizations on this forum to be mind boggling.

[LifesontheUp]

I'm of the opinion that it takes two to make a marriage succeed...which means it only takes one or the other to not to do their part to make it fail.

 

It CAN be both. Or it could be one or the other.

 

Each person needs to take a look at their own relationship and sort out where the breakdown is...honestly.

 

Here here, well said.

[rafallus]

I have never cheated. You may belive something is not natural, and still go along with it, as Nyrias so eloqantly pointed out.

So what's the point of debate, whether monogamy is natural or not? Either you go with it, or not. Make sure your partner knows, what your choice is, and either he accepts it or not. If not, you find another one. Rest is no use. Edited August 13, 2011 by rafallus

[Kitsune77]

Rafallous, I agree. An associate propositioned me the other day, and I said to him, aren't you in a committed relationship? He said he was, but didn't believe in monogamy, of which he hadn't informed his girlfriend.

[wheelwright]

Ww, you never answered my question. Does/did your husband agree that going outside of the marriage was acceptable/understandable since your marriage was yroubled at the time?

 

A marriage is a joining, an agreemant between two people. Both should agree on the terms and conditions in it...and one cannot unilaterally change those conditions...

 

To do so is the height of selfishness and the epitome of self- serving behavior.

 

I am sorry about my self serving behaviour. That's the way it was for me. To finally act in a way that served me, I needed to do that,

 

There are things you don't know, so please don't do this.

[donnamaybe]

But why can't a person make their life the way they want it without lying? If a guy lies to a gal to get her in the sack then never calls her again, he gets ripped a new one. What's the difference? He was, after all, just serving himself.

[Kidd]

Nobody is saying that is should....

 

Heres what happens...a spouse cheats...then the BS goes off and says "Our marriage is destryoed because you cheated" (which in many cases is wrong)... Then the WS retaliates with the failures the BS did because they feel that the marriage was killed a long time ago because of what the BS did (which is partly wrong)...and then the BS says "Hes blaming this allon me"

 

 

its a breakdown in communication that goes nowhere

 

I tend to disagree that it goes nowhere. Maybe it goes nowhere. For recovery, it's a necessary dialogue that ultimately can lead the two parties to a better understanding of and an empathy for both positions. In a real recovery, I think the conversation leads the WS to understand that they ARE at fault for the affair (your vows do morally compel you to make a decision other than cheating) and leads the BS to understand that they, too, must make changes in order to satisfy the needs of the WS in a future marriage. I think it is Owl's point that both parties must feel R is possible and even desirable (which requires that you will, at minimum, empathize with your partner).

[nyrias]

But why can't a person make their life the way they want it without lying? If a guy lies to a gal to get her in the sack then never calls her again, he gets ripped a new one. What's the difference? He was, after all, just serving himself.

 

Because humans are evolved to lie, as a potential strategy to deal with other humans.

 

And in many situations, lying is one (easy, efficient, feasible .. pick you word) way to achieve an objective (selfish or otherwise).

 

In your example, may be a person CANNOT make their life the way they want it without lying?

 

Madoff is a perfect example. He was a bad investor and he would never make it as a big fund manager without lying & fraud. Now the lie obviously crashed (and that is one possible consequences one has to live with), but it does have the intended effect before it was discovered.

 

Note that lies are NOT 100% correlated with "serving oneself". For example, you can lie to protect another. So it is just a tool/technique .. like a gun ... can use to murder people, can use to defend yourself.

[donnamaybe]

When someone is lying to sneak around behind their partner's back and screw someone else that is only self serving, just as in the example I used about the guy playing a girl. What is good for one should be just as good for the other.

Because humans are evolved to lie, as a potential strategy to deal with other humans.

 

And in many situations, lying is one (easy, efficient, feasible .. pick you word) way to achieve an objective (selfish or otherwise).

 

In your example, may be a person CANNOT make their life the way they want it without lying?

 

Madoff is a perfect example. He was a bad investor and he would never make it as a big fund manager without lying & fraud. Now the lie obviously crashed (and that is one possible consequences one has to live with), but it does have the intended effect before it was discovered.

 

Note that lies are NOT 100% correlated with "serving oneself". For example, you can lie to protect another. So it is just a tool/technique .. like a gun ... can use to murder people, can use to defend yourself.

[sally4sara]

Because humans are evolved to lie, as a potential strategy to deal with other humans.

 

And in many situations, lying is one (easy, efficient, feasible .. pick you word) way to achieve an objective (selfish or otherwise).

 

In your example, may be a person CANNOT make their life the way they want it without lying?

 

Madoff is a perfect example. He was a bad investor and he would never make it as a big fund manager without lying & fraud. Now the lie obviously crashed (and that is one possible consequences one has to live with), but it does have the intended effect before it was discovered.

 

Note that lies are NOT 100% correlated with "serving oneself". For example, you can lie to protect another. So it is just a tool/technique .. like a gun ... can use to murder people, can use to defend yourself.

 

Of course everyone will probably find themselves in the situation to need to lie. We don't love everyone and some people we down right fear or dislike. But lying to someone while claiming you love them is a bit different than any evolutionary need to lie.

[Woggle]

Bernie Madoff is not somebody we should aspire to emulate. He got his due in the end though and hopefully other liars and cheaters do.

[nyrias]

When someone is lying to sneak around behind their partner's back and screw someone else that is only self serving, just as in the example I used about the guy playing a girl. What is good for one should be just as good for the other.

 

No one says it is not self-serving. In fact, the need to self-serve is the root motivation of MANY human behaviors.

[Owl]

No one says it is not self-serving. In fact, the need to self-serve is the root motivation of MANY human behaviors.

 

True...but that doesn't mean that we should accept that as an excuse for behavior that hurts those that we love...nor does it mean we shouldn't strive to be better.

 

The BEST parts of humanity occur when we rise above this...and act selflessly rather than selfishly.

 

I don't buy into the "because everyone else is doing it" defense. Never accepted it from my kids, never used it to defend myself, and never felt it was a good reason for poor behavior.