Are you serious? Really?

[donnamaybe]

No one says it is not self-serving. In fact, the need to self-serve is the root motivation of MANY human behaviors.

 

But people with any discernable conscience squelch the desire to purusue those that would cause another emotional pain.

[nyrias]

Of course everyone will probably find themselves in the situation to need to lie. We don't love everyone and some people we down right fear or dislike. But lying to someone while claiming you love them is a bit different than any evolutionary need to lie.

 

Nope. "Claiming you love them" is a lie itself. Men & women claim to love someone when they didn't throughout ages to get what they wanted including, but not limited to, money, power, sex, .....

 

And in fact, lying and betraying someone who one claims, but not actually, to love, is an extension of the original lie.

 

Nothing inconsistent about it. It certainly serves evolution's fitness criterion of spreading ones' gene.

[nyrias]

True...but that doesn't mean that we should accept that as an excuse for behavior that hurts those that we love...nor does it mean we shouldn't strive to be better.

 

The BEST parts of humanity occur when we rise above this...and act selflessly rather than selfishly.

 

I don't buy into the "because everyone else is doing it" defense. Never accepted it from my kids, never used it to defend myself, and never felt it was a good reason for poor behavior.

 

No one says it is an excuse for anything.

 

Saying evolution causes it .. is NOT a defense. It is a scientific point (i am not calling it a fact since it is not verified).

 

Just like knowing why we crave sugar is NOT a defense for uncontrollable eating.

 

You are confusing a discussion of why to a discussion of justification.

[donnamaybe]

Wow. The rationalization for crappy behavior just keep on getting spun. Unbelievable. I guess I should just go about my days with a complete disregard for anyone but me me me.

[donnamaybe]

No one says it is an excuse for anything.

 

Saying evolution causes it .. is NOT a defense. It is a scientific point (i am not calling it a fact since it is not verified).

 

Just like knowing why we crave sugar is NOT a defense for uncontrollable eating.

 

You are confusing a discussion of why to a discussion of justification.

 

So mindless cravings remove all conscience for certain people even when they are inflicting emotional scars on another. Gotcha. Neanderthals...

[Owl]

OK...if the point is that it's used as a justification....but not given as some kind of valid reason or excuse.

 

Sure...people have provided all kinds of justifications for poor/destructive behaviors throughout the history of mankind.

 

It's in everyone's nature to view themselves and their own actions as positively as possible...so justifications/lies/etc... are excellent tools to make someone feel better for having engaged in destructive/hurtful behaviors.

 

It's easier to skew your own perception of reality to make your actions seem justifiable than it is to emotionally accept the responsibility for your actions and the impacts that they had on yourself or others.

[nyrias]

But people with any discernable conscience squelch the desire to purusue those that would cause another emotional pain.

 

Then the conclusion is simple. Many people do not have any discernable conscience.

 

(Which is also not surprising)

[donnamaybe]

Then the conclusion is simple. Many people do not have any discernable conscience.

 

(Which is also not surprising)

 

Yeah. Try telling people that on LS and you will get the smackdown.

[nyrias]

OK...if the point is that it's used as a justification....but not given as some kind of valid reason or excuse.

 

Sure...people have provided all kinds of justifications for poor/destructive behaviors throughout the history of mankind.

 

It's in everyone's nature to view themselves and their own actions as positively as possible...so justifications/lies/etc... are excellent tools to make someone feel better for having engaged in destructive/hurtful behaviors.

 

It's easier to skew your own perception of reality to make your actions seem justifiable than it is to emotionally accept the responsibility for your actions and the impacts that they had on yourself or others.

 

Let's explore the justification point since it obviously has a place in this discussion.

 

I would question the chicken and the egg aspect of it.

 

Is it that people justify because they just want to feel better ... and they would have done it anyway .. or

 

Is it that they will cheat because they can (or have heard) the justification?

 

I tend to believe it is the former although i have no evidence in this regard.

[nyrias]

Yeah. Try telling people that on LS and you will get the smackdown.

 

Why? It is certainly the truth.

 

If by conscious, we mean a psychological force that prevents people from cheating (or hurting others), then obviously many do not have it (or enough of it, if we can define it as a continuum, as opposed to 0 or 1)

 

It is pretty self-evidence from the fact that LS exists.

[donnamaybe]

Why? It is certainly the truth.

 

If by conscious, we mean a psychological force that prevents people from cheating (or hurting others), then obviously many do not have it (or enough of it, if we can define it as a continuum, as opposed to 0 or 1)

 

It is pretty self-evidence from the fact that LS exists.

 

Because sometimes the truth is harsh, and harsh is only okay when it goes something like this: "I am happy so why should I care about anyone else?"

[Owl]

Let's explore the justification point since it obviously has a place in this discussion.

 

I would question the chicken and the egg aspect of it.

 

Is it that people justify because they just want to feel better ... and they would have done it anyway .. or

 

Is it that they will cheat because they can (or have heard) the justification?

 

I tend to believe it is the former although i have no evidence in this regard.

 

It depends on the person and the situation.

 

I believe some people are extremely self-centered...and so those people will cheat because they can. Truthfully, they care little about the actual damage they cause...instead, they focus on the benefits to themselves, and try to minimize the negative perceptions of their cheating so that the benefits remain high. Serial cheaters are a good example of this type of mindset.

 

I believe some people cheat when they hit a low spot because they don't see any other way to make it better...it seems (to them) like their only or best option. They do worry about that perception alot more...and will often seek to use those justifications to help "rationalize" what they've done.

 

Some people are capable of seeing the impacts of what they've done, and rather than try to minimize it, they attempt to learn from it, to try to take ownership and responsibility for what they've done...and take ownership of trying to find a way to "make amends" to those they've wronged in the process.

[Tech_E]

Some people are capable of seeing the impacts of what they've done, and rather than try to minimize it, they attempt to learn from it, to try to take ownership and responsibility for what they've done...and take ownership of trying to find a way to "make amends" to those they've wronged in the process.

 

Owl I agree that there are a wide spectrum of people that cheat and there are significant differences in what they do after the fact.

 

I would suggest that "making amends" is impossible insofar as the marriage itself is concerned.

[Owl]

Owl I agree that there are a wide spectrum of people that cheat and there are significant differences in what they do after the fact.

 

I would suggest that "making amends" is impossible insofar as the marriage itself is concerned.

 

I don't believe that "making amends" is truly possible either...but...it can go a long ways towards demonstrating responsibility and a desire to work together to rebuild the marriage. While a WS may never be able to "payback" for what they did...demonstrating a desire and willingness to try to do so can go a long ways towards generating forgiveness and a rebuilding of the relationship.

[Memphis Raines]

 

I have never cheated. You may belive something is not natural, and still go along with it, as Nyrias so eloqantly pointed out.

 

Also I have been with a serial cheater in the past, who said he valued monogamy, so what people say, and what they do are often very differant.

 

I must say, I find the generalizations on this forum to be mind boggling.

 

no generalizations about it. its called probability. there are always exceptions to the rule, but most of the time that "rule" is correct more times than not.

[rafallus]

Then the conclusion is simple. Many people do not have any discernable conscience.

 

(Which is also not surprising)

Bigger question is:

 

What are you going to do about it?

 

You can:

1. Decide, that maybe it applies to some people, but not all, and look for those who are different.

2. Accept it's all of them (or enough not to bother with searching for exceptions). And drop all pretenses you're any better.

3. Accept it's all of them, yet try to be different.

4. Not care as much about relationships with anyone.

Edited August 15, 2011 by rafallus

[nyrias]

Bigger question is:

 

What are you going to do about it?

 

You can:

1. Decide, that maybe it applies to some people, but not all, and look for those who are different.

2. Accept it's all of them (or enough not to bother with searching for exceptions). And drop all pretenses you're any better.

3. Accept it's all of them, yet try to be different.

4. Not care as much about relationships with anyone.

 

That is a good question. I guess each has his/her own view.

 

(1) is not very realistic. The chance is quite low (some survey says 70% people will cheat if they wont be caught). I would not bank my life on it.

 

(2) is reasonable. It is often dangerous to pretend to be better than your fellow human beings.

 

(3) "Try to be different" is another way to delude oneself. Either you have a conscious, or you don't. One cannot truly "try" to have one.

 

(4) well, most of our brains are evolved to handle relationships (.. or social dynamics, i saw the argument & presentation of a little evidence at a conference, although i do not recall the cite now), unless you are autistic, it is not realistic to assume we can reduce our own need/desire for relationships.

[nyrias]

about both spouses being responsible for the state of a marriage...

 

I agree with this, however, what happens when one spouse feels that their spouse is doing things that they find hurtful/annoying/ make them angry? Where does the responsibility lie? Are they not responsible to tell their spouse how they are feeling?

 

Each of us is different, comes from different backgrounds and has different experiences that color the way we perceive the world. Things that may not even register to one person may be greatly distressing to another, but how is the first person to know this if they are not told about it? I'm pretty sure that most people in a marriage or other long term relationship know what I mean..something you find irrelevant may be extremely upsetting to your spouse ( I'm talking about little things that we all do, often without thinking about them). If your spouse does not tell you they are upset ( or tells you everything is fine, if you ask) are they not then partly responsible for their feelings? Now, if your spouse tells you something bothers them and you don't change your behavior ( or at least talk about and acknowledge their feelings), that's different.

 

The notion of responsibility is vague at best. There is no clear definition of what "accepting responsibility" means. I would much rather examine action & consequences.

 

In this case, communicating or not have very different consequences. Make your choice and live with it.

[nyrias]

It depends on the person and the situation.

 

I believe some people are extremely self-centered...and so those people will cheat because they can. Truthfully, they care little about the actual damage they cause...instead, they focus on the benefits to themselves, and try to minimize the negative perceptions of their cheating so that the benefits remain high. Serial cheaters are a good example of this type of mindset.

 

I believe some people cheat when they hit a low spot because they don't see any other way to make it better...it seems (to them) like their only or best option. They do worry about that perception alot more...and will often seek to use those justifications to help "rationalize" what they've done.

 

Some people are capable of seeing the impacts of what they've done, and rather than try to minimize it, they attempt to learn from it, to try to take ownership and responsibility for what they've done...and take ownership of trying to find a way to "make amends" to those they've wronged in the process.

 

The question is which type of cheaters do you "prefer"? The first type is clean cut, easy to hate, and once discovered, you can (prob no other option) just leave.

 

The second type is much more messier that reconciliation MAY be possible.

 

Which is the better (to you, the specific reader, since obviously there is no general correct answer)? A serial cheater than may cause more pain, but you can hate & leave and recover faster, or

 

A "reluctant" cheater who you can work something out, but cannot escape the shadow of the A and can drag on for a long time?

[Owl]

The question is which type of cheaters do you "prefer"? The first type is clean cut, easy to hate, and once discovered, you can (prob no other option) just leave.

 

The second type is much more messier that reconciliation MAY be possible.

 

Which is the better (to you, the specific reader, since obviously there is no general correct answer)? A serial cheater than may cause more pain, but you can hate & leave and recover faster, or

 

A "reluctant" cheater who you can work something out, but cannot escape the shadow of the A and can drag on for a long time?

 

I opt for C..."none of the above".

 

And I thought that I thought poorly of humanity...the way you describe us as a species, sounds like we'd be best off all drinking the cool-aid and hoping to rendevous on Shoemaker-Levy, leaving the planet to be inherited by the octopi and squid.

[sally4sara]

I opt for C..."none of the above".

 

And I thought that I thought poorly of humanity...the way you describe us as a species, sounds like we'd be best off all drinking the cool-aid and hoping to rendevous on Shoemaker-Levy, leaving the planet to be inherited by the octopi and squid.

 

Yes it does seem as though someone got dumped and found Nietzsche over summer break. Too much staring into the abyss and all that.

[Severely Unamused]

Yes it does seem as though someone got dumped and found Nietzsche over summer break. Too much staring into the abyss and all that.

 

You know, Nietzsche did suggest that we should accept the pointlessness of life, but live to the best of our capabilities and make a better world, anyway.

 

Everybody seems to forget that bit. Why is that?...(that was a rhetorical, don't answer it smartass)

 

I opt for C..."none of the above".

Always choose the third option. Edited August 15, 2011 by Severely Unamused

[sally4sara]

You know, Nietzsche did suggest that we should accept the pointlessness of life, but live to the best of our capabilities and make a better world, anyway.

 

Everybody seems to forget that bit.

 

Always choose the third option.

 

Yup. Talk enough and you're bound to say something useful. Talk a little longer and you'll probably find an ass kicking.

[rafallus]

You know, Nietzsche did suggest that we should accept the pointlessness of life, but live to the best of our capabilities and make a better world, anyway.

Nietzsche would be turning over in his grave, if he saw, what happened to his philosophies, and who used them for their own "convenience".

[wheelwright]

How can one be a bully if you believe that it's okay to cheat when there are problems in the marriage? That's abuse in it's own right. If you say that you will never accept responsibility for the downfall of your M, that cannot be rationalized with your concept of "naturally and subconsciously lying." You know what you've been doing from the start. To say otherwise and go off-topic about lying in general shows that you're lying yourself and your situation, in your own paragraph!

 

Bolded being a key word.

 

I still don't understand the role of my infidelity in my M, as I felt the M dead before I embarked on this wayward quest.

 

However, I think on the whole I have been pretty consistant in following the 'it takes two to make a bad M tango' line.

 

I gave specifics for lying, so don't follow your logic either.

 

Perhaps I am wrong, and missing some important point, but your arguments are circular - cheating is bad and so any rationale explanation is bad because - you guessed it! Cheating is bad.

 

I have spent part of my day discussing the difference between descriptive or unsubstantiated comments, and comments which are evaluative or evidence based.

 

But generalise away. Just rest assured that other ways of stating your points may be more credible.