Any legal tips for a BS here?

[andyg99]

you have to follow your head and your heart and do what is right FOR YOU, make sure your head is making most of the decisions though...

 

IMO letting her know now may just kick in some plan B for her, I doubt if it would change her mind about your marriage. We have to be careful and not kid ourselves that our cheating spouses are in some kind of "trance" and if we can jolt them out of it they'll wake up and see the light. Nope, it's not like that, she knows full well what she is doing - I hope you get that lawyer ASAP and slap that divorce on her in the next few days... you're not doing it for any revenge, you are clear headed and are making great decisions right now. Once the affair comes out in the open (looks like it's really important to her to keep it under wraps for a while and present it as something legit) her world will fall apart, and you will be on the road to healing and living a life that is more incredible that you can imagine!

 

Stick with the plan! there are many of us here who wish we could turn back the clock and do it your way! Trust me Saul, you have people not only caring for you here but we are rooting for you like our favorite team right now. Keep us posted!

 

 

What I would hope, is that if she knew that her plan wouldn't work, she would at least make some attempt to work things out. Talk our problems through. Do what we have to do to save the marriage. I can swallow my pride if I must.

 

But...feck that.

[Binster]

When you decide to pull the triger tell the other guys wife, if he's a co-worker inform their work place and tell your family -all at once (shock and awe) also clean out any joint accounts.

In the meantime start putong money some where safe as a slush fund just in case.

Get a keyloger on her computor it may give you an insite into any other plans she has.

Get the voice activated recorder asap.

Good luck.

[Saul Goodman]

IMO letting her know now may just kick in some plan B for her

That's why I'm keeping quiet. It sounds like she has been planning this for a long time.

 

looks like it's really important to her to keep it under wraps for a while and present it as something legit

It's weird, she's not usually one to care about appearances. I guess that she is a different person now. Forgive the cliché, but before I found out about her convoluted plan, I always saw her as the "wouldn't hurt a butterfly" type.

 

When you decide to pull the triger tell the other guys wife, if he's a co-worker inform their work place and tell your family -all at once (shock and awe) also clean out any joint accounts.

In the meantime start putong money some where safe as a slush fund just in case.

Get a keyloger on her computor it may give you an insite into any other plans she has.

Get the voice activated recorder asap.

Good luck.

 

That sounds very brutal. I'm in a pretty brutal mood.

[RecordProducer]

Any legal tips for a BS here?

Save your money, hire an attorney!

[Saul Goodman]

Save your money, hire an attorney!

 

That seems like an oxymoron, my friend.

 

Anyway, I've taken some sick days off work to get an early start. There's a lot of lawyers to see. Protecting my assets. Pulling all sorts of ninja stuff.

 

So, by the end of the month I'll be prepared for the very likely divorce. That is when I will tell the BW.

Thanks for all of the advice everybody.

[GorillaTheater]

So, by the end of the month I'll be prepared for the very likely divorce. That is when I will tell the BW.

 

This may already be your plan, but I wouldn't tell the BW until you've filed. It won't take the BW long to tell the OM, and it'll be 5 minutes after that that the OM gets word to your wife. You might even want to wait until your wife is served.

 

The BW deserves to know the truth without a doubt; you just don't want to waste those fine ninja moves with a premature showing of your hand (I mix metaphors the way others stir a drink).

 

Please keep us informed of how things go. Are you holding up okay? You sound calm and strong as hell.

[Lostinlife4now]

Good Luck Saul!

[carhill]

Yep, January 17, 1991. Shock and awe. 3am wake up call. If you're gonna throw a ton of money at this, and you likely will, make it count.

 

Just have your process server call you when she's served and then implement S&A immediately.

 

Please to not confuse this advice with jumping up and down gleefully about something which will cause a lot of people pain. It will be truly a sad day. However, what must be done must be done. Everything in life has limits. It's now unfortunately time to implement yours. My sympathies.

[KathyM]

Well, basically "no fault" means that you can file for D without having to prove that your spouse has been "at fault". You want a D. You file.

If you divide your assets and you're not in agreement with your soon to be ex spouse, however, and you want more than 50%, or you want (more) spousal support etc., the spouse at fault (if there is evidence), might very well end up receiving less or paying more. Of course that's up to the judge, sure, and there won't be a huge deviation, but it can influence the outcome. A cheated-on W could play the "emotionally abused/stressed-out" card that prevents her from having a job for a while, and the judge may accommodate that. Or the cheater-wife may not be awarded alimony, or less than she would get if the situation were different, etc.etc. Custody/child support: will probably not be affected. It all depends on whether or not OP is willing to fight or not, and on how much stamina he has. And whether he has a good lawyer.

It's been my experience, based on the cases I've seen, that in no fault divorce states, alimony is seldom awarded, unless the wife is unemployable, or has given many years of her life to the raising of kids or the establishment of a family business, and is therefore impeded in her ability to gain employment because her work record limits her ability to find a job. Or if the wife has preschool children, then the judge may decide it is in the best interests of the children that she stay home with them, and will award her some alimony along with child support payments. But judges are getting away from awarding any alimony anymore, except possibly under those conditions I mentioned. Normally, both spouses are expected to get a job, and to support themselves. Then the child support will be determined based on who provides the majority of care for the children. An affair rarely determines any alimony settlement, and it certainly doesn't determine child support. Judges expect women to get a job and support themselves, and may temporarily award alimony if in the situations I've described above, but alimony is, for the most part, seldom awarded anymore, regardless of an affair. Child support is what is awarded, and it goes to the primary caregiver based on what the judge determines the children need to take care of their basic needs. The marital assets are usually divided in half, regardless of whether or not there was an affair. Not saying that is always the case, but that's normally what happens.

[Saul Goodman]

This may already be your plan, but I wouldn't tell the BW until you've filed.

Right right. That's my plan. No rushing in. I should've worded that sentence better I suppose. Oops.

 

Are you holding up okay? You sound calm and strong as hell.

Honestly, I am very sad about what I'm doing, what she is doing, and what my wife and I used to have. The thought that reconciliation is still possible, is something that sticks with me. Crazier things have happened.

 

But life goes on, eh? Better not get left behind in the past.

 

Please to not confuse this advice with jumping up and down gleefully about something which will cause a lot of people pain. It will be truly a sad day.

Yeah. It's hard to cheer, when you are jumping up and down, on top of broken hearts.

 

I suppose what puts me in a grey mood is that we had a MC session yesterday (I don't plan on cancelling until my preparations are complete). Pretty much everything that she said has a cruelly ironic double meaning, now that I know about her intentions. And hell, I'm lying by omission too.

 

That's enough whinging for now.

[carhill]

I would suggest leaving the MC option on the table, rather than proactively 'canceling' it, until after she is served and clearly indicates that divorce is the path. Part of that is maintaining the status quo for shock and awe and part is showing willingness to recover if middle ground (and the end of her affair) can be found. It's not over until it's over. IME, that's a process which happens one day at a time.

 

My advice would be, in the sessions remaining, to focus on tools for clearer communication and acceptance of her perspective. IME, this is helpful during the divorce process. It's consistent with usual goals in MC, which preserves appearances, and can promote the feeling of 'taking the higher road' by earnestly giving the process your best effort. Use it in a positive way to impel proactive steps you feel healthy about, for your own life. If that life ends up including her, it does. If not, not. Either way it will go on.

[Saul Goodman]

I would suggest leaving the MC option on the table, rather than proactively 'canceling' it, until after she is served and clearly indicates that divorce is the path. Part of that is maintaining the status quo for shock and awe and part is showing willingness to recover if middle ground (and the end of her affair) can be found.

Hmm, that's not a bad idea, carhill. It couldn't hurt too much. Heh, burning through my wallet though.

 

My advice would be, in the sessions remaining, to focus on tools for clearer communication and acceptance of her perspective. IME, this is helpful during the divorce process. It's consistent with usual goals in MC, which preserves appearances, and can promote the feeling of 'taking the higher road' by earnestly giving the process your best effort. Use it in a positive way to impel proactive steps you feel healthy about, for your own life. If that life ends up including her, it does. If not, not. Either way it will go on.

Yep, that's what I've been doing.

 

Although, I do wish that she had brought up her complaints earlier on, instead of unleashing them on me during MC, like a stealth bomb. Ah well.

[carhill]

Yes, I know what you mean about cost. For us, it was 165/hr, reduced to 100/hr by insurance. My lawyer was 350/hr. I learned a lot about the legal system that I didn't know but have found the relationship lessons and tools learned in MC to be more valuable to myself. YMMV.

 

Those 'stealth bombs' can be good information. Take it all in. It can be anything from abject honesty to a marital re-write. The more she talks, the more information you have for divorce or reconciliation, whichever path ends up being yours. More information is good information, IMO

[Saul Goodman]

I learned a lot about the legal system that I didn't know

Me too. Mostly about its fondness for emptying wallets. Hmph.

 

Those 'stealth bombs' can be good information.

Yes, I've really recieved an earful.

 

Despite the dire circumstances, it is fascinating to hear her talk about these problems. She's usually quite a quiet person.

[Trimmer]

Plan for the worst and hope for the best. Slowly withdraw money and deposit it with a genuine friend. Place money where it will be inaccesable. Eg Children fund (your own).

I would be very careful about this. This is something thing the court will very much frown upon, and which opposing attorneys will know to look for any signs of. If you get caught at this, you'll have screwed yourself.

 

 

Now, at the risk of sounding like a contrarian to all the advice to be aggressive, can I ask how old your kids are? And have you considered how an aggressive and brutal offense may affect them?

 

What follows assumes your kids are not yet adults, and will still depend on you, their parents, for tangible, emotional, and developmental support.

 

Don't get me wrong; I'm squarely with you - to hell with your duplicitous, lying wife. And I'll probably get pounded for this, especially since everybody still has the clubs in their hands, but considering your kids, is it really worth intentionally making it brutal?

 

I agree with making a strong statement, laying down the papers, making it definitive, final, and non-negotiable. But then, how about you turn forward and start moving on with your life as a father? Do what you need to to get the divorce finalized quickly - and quietly - and making a stable life for your kids, who will have a hard enough time with Mom and Dad divorcing, let alone if you are at each other's throats and there's an air of hostility and anger that will - of course - affect and f*** up your kids.

 

My suggestion is that you do as has been said here - get all your ducks in a row so you hit her hard and fast with the divorce. But then you basically tell her, look, I know what you've done, I now know what you are. We're going to end this, and we're going to do it calmly so we don't mess up the kids.

 

Landing blows, drawing blood, taking out chunks of her flesh, may feel good - you think, anyway - but try to start thinking long term, and include your kids in that thought process. I encourage you to go for custody, or at least to stand for no less than 50/50. But even if you prevail and get what you want with respect to custody, your kids are going to need stable parents, and they will do best if they have BOTH parents available, open, stable, and non-hostile. The best, shortest, least hostile route to that outcome is the best outcome for your kids.

 

I know this is sometimes not a popular view, and I acknowledge that the desire to take revenge is strong and hard to resist. I just wanted to present an alternative view. Yes, you will be in great pain - I acknowledge that and I empathize, from personal experience much like yours. But instead of thinking of this as a burden that requires you to strike back to solve, think of it as being granted your freedom to move on to what is next.

 

If you didn't have kids, I wouldn't really be so passionate about it - hell, maybe the fight would be theraputic. But with kids involved, every increment of anger, every bit of hostility, represents collateral damage from which they will need help recovering. Minimize that, and you help them.

[GorillaTheater]

I don't disagree with Trimmer at all (I wouldn't dare, he's roughly three times as thoughtful and eloquent as I am). There's no reason to turn this into a bloody slug-fest. But look at this tactically: almost no one "wins" a divorce; it's largely a defensive battle where the most you can hope for is to minimise the damage. The key to any defensive battle is positioning: getting the best ground on the battlefield first. In this instance, it's securing excellent legal representation, securing finances and assets, short-circuiting any attempt to go the RO route, and documenting the wife's actions and the time spent by both with the kids with an eye towards securing at least 50-50 custody.

 

I'm not advocating hurting Saul's wife any more than necessary, I'm advocating his protecting himself, and his children, as much as possible. And a funny thing about taking a firm, strong stand from the beginning? I've seen more than one instance of the "shocked" spouse snapping out of the fog and reassessing what, in this case she, wants, and not uncommonly it's the marriage. And regardless of whether reconciliation is even in the cards here, the stronger Saul's position, the sooner I think the divorce will be wrapped up and the sooner he can heal and put this behind him.

[Saul Goodman]

I intend on keeping the kids out of this for as much as possible. I can only hope that my wife will do the same.

 

I don't know. I don't really like being the brutal twat hole, but like GT said, I have to be pragmatic about this. If my wife does go ballistic, I will have to be prepared. In the unlikely chance that she remains genuinely amiable, I won't have to scorch the earth, correct?

[PegNosePete]

If my wife does go ballistic, I will have to be prepared. In the unlikely chance that she remains genuinely amiable, I won't have to scorch the earth, correct?

Exactly. You don't have to be an a-hole but you do have to be strong and not back down. Don't let her get away with anything. You don't have to be nasty to say "No I don't think that's fair, I'm not going to let you do it". It's just minimizing your losses, which is very different from minimizing her gains. If my objective had been to minimize my ex's gains then I would have had a huge legal bill and I'd be much worse off.

[Trimmer]

I don't disagree with Trimmer at all (I wouldn't dare, he's roughly three times as thoughtful and eloquent as I am). There's no reason to turn this into a bloody slug-fest. But look at this tactically: almost no one "wins" a divorce; it's largely a defensive battle where the most you can hope for is to minimise the damage. The key to any defensive battle is positioning: getting the best ground on the battlefield first. In this instance, it's securing excellent legal representation, securing finances and assets, short-circuiting any attempt to go the RO route, and documenting the wife's actions and the time spent by both with the kids with an eye towards securing at least 50-50 custody.

 

I'm not advocating hurting Saul's wife any more than necessary, I'm advocating his protecting himself, and his children, as much as possible. And a funny thing about taking a firm, strong stand from the beginning? I've seen more than one instance of the "shocked" spouse snapping out of the fog and reassessing what, in this case she, wants, and not uncommonly it's the marriage. And regardless of whether reconciliation is even in the cards here, the stronger Saul's position, the sooner I think the divorce will be wrapped up and the sooner he can heal and put this behind him.

 

I completely agree with everything you've said here. Be strong, be firm, set boundaries, and, together with a good attorney, advocate assertively for a reasonable outcome.

 

I guess that's my point - the "reasonable outcome", and for me, that's the dividing line between what I think is a good idea to lead with and what I think isn't. If you come out being strong and assertive, working towards a reasonable outcome, then ultimately it may actually make the process go better.

 

But if right out of the gate, your "shock and awe" campaign tries to "wipe her out" or uses the divorce process to punish her, etc., then there's no other possible outcome than that she will strike back. Fear and defensiveness, on her part, will manifest in anger, and then you guarantee you have a fight on your hands.

 

Again, if it weren't for the kids, you wanted to blow off some steam, and you had the resources (read: money to pay your lawyer) then whether it's my style or not, I wouldn't argue against going for the throat, if that's what you wanted to do.

 

I just think that with kids involved, you can be strong in letting her know that you will stand firm and advocate assertively for your rights, but if you draw the dividing line reasonably, it may disarm her fear and the need on her part to strike back.

 

Now, having said all that, my approach hopes that she will be able to be a somewhat reasonable person in this process, and I admit, you can't know that for sure. She may well turn out to be the b!tch from hell, and decide to come after you anyway - so for sure, get yourself loaded up with a good attorney and in a protected and defensive posture so you are ready to repel that attack if it comes. It's just that if things "go well" and she turns out to be able to be somewhat reasonable after all, there's no need for you to create a fight where there wouldn't be one otherwise, and that's the best outcome for the kids.

 

Believe me, I know your situation - it is parallel in a lot of ways to mine. I was lucky, in that while my ex was kinda pissy with me leading up to our split, once it started to happen, and I showed some strength in standing up for myself, but also demonstrated that I was going to be reasonable and businesslike in the divorce, she pretty much relaxed, and we didn't have a big fight on our hands. And much as I might have liked to get some blows in, here 6 years later, I've got a couple of kids doing pretty well with two parents who didn't put them in the middle of a bunch of divorce bullshxt, and someone might call me a wuss for not "fighting back", but I wouldn't do it any other way.

 

(Now my marriage itself, I might do a different way, but that's for another discussion. )

 

Good luck, be strong, and I know you will be a good parent to your kids. I hope your STBX will as well.

[Saul Goodman]

Well, a quick update.

 

I've been consulting divorce lawyers all week, and found a few golden eggs. Gathered and recorded information. Copied and hidden any useful documentation. Purchased a voice recorder. Been on my best behaviour so my wife doesn't suspect anything.

 

Finances are about as protected as I can make them.

 

I plan on biting the bullet in around one week to two weeks. Basically, when I'm as prepared as I can be, my wife will know.

 

Any more advice guys? You've been pretty damned helpful.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Saul Goodman

[John Michael Kane]

Now, at the risk of sounding like a contrarian to all the advice to be aggressive, can I ask how old your kids are? And have you considered how an aggressive and brutal offense may affect them?

 

What follows assumes your kids are not yet adults, and will still depend on you, their parents, for tangible, emotional, and developmental support.

 

Those kids will live. They will not die just because their parents get divorced and if they are very young, they will adjust easily.

 

He needs to protect himself and get ready for the inevitable attempts of manipulation and mind-f*ck games his wife will soon try on him once all of this is out in the open.

 

His wife is the one who should've at least thought about the kids before she went off to "find herself."

 

One other thing I suggest you do OP is to keep yourself occupied. Mourn you must but don't ever forget to do the things you love. It will help to pass time once this crap dies down.

[Trimmer]

Those kids will live. They will not die just because their parents get divorced and if they are very young, they will adjust easily.

You seem to put "they will live" on the same level as "they will adjust easily." Those are two very different things.

 

You also seem to treat them as more or less incidental to the rest of the situation. To a parent, they are not.

 

They will adjust easily if their parents manage to keep them out of the middle, and somehow manage to establish a working relationship as parents, even if their relationship as spouses is destroyed. The responsibility to be a parent is not lifted - from either one of them - just because (a) she want's to go "find herself" or whatever the hell she's doing, nor (b) just because he is hurt, and it's her fault. Each still has the responsibility to step up and do the right thing by the kids, even if the other one doesn't.

 

He needs to protect himself and get ready for the inevitable attempts of manipulation and mind-f*ck games his wife will soon try on him once all of this is out in the open.

No disagreement here.

 

His wife is the one who should've at least thought about the kids before she went off to "find herself."

Indeed, she should have, I agree. But she didn't. And so as I pointed out above, that doesn't relieve him of the burden of cotinuing to maintain a responsible, adult, parental role. And so maybe if one of them keeps being the adult parent, maybe the other one will follow along.

 

And I know the common whine here: "well, why does it have to be him???" Well, it should be BOTH, but neither one gets excused because of what the other one does. If she doesn't step up, then it's her issue and she sucks - she doesn't get a free pass - but he has no control over that. Irrespective of her, he needs to do what a parent should do. And I have a feeling you'll disagree here, but I believe that also includes hoping for and facilitating the kids maintaining a good relationship with their mother. Not because she deserves it or is owed, but because it's what's best for them.

 

One other thing I suggest you do OP is to keep yourself occupied. Mourn you must but don't ever forget to do the things you love. It will help to pass time once this crap dies down.

Completely agree.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Trimmer

[John Michael Kane]

You seem to put "they will live" on the same level as "they will adjust easily." Those are two very different things.

 

Yes because both are true, if they are young. No one is disputing that they will be sad about it. Children would rather see their parents happy apart rather than miserable together, although I don't count a cheater as a parent.

 

You also seem to treat them as more or less incidental to the rest of the situation. To a parent, they are not.

 

Nobody here said that but you. I have a son of my own but the fact that I have a child did not stop me from doing what needed to be done.

 

They will adjust easily if their parents manage to keep them out of the middle, and somehow manage to establish a working relationship as parents, even if their relationship as spouses is destroyed. The responsibility to be a parent is not lifted - from either one of them - just because (a) she want's to go "find herself" or whatever the hell she's doing, nor (b) just because he is hurt, and it's her fault. Each still has the responsibility to step up and do the right thing by the kids, even if the other one doesn't.

 

And he can still be a parent to his children even if he's not with his WW. That marriage was born before those kids and while they are important, he also needs to make sure he's happy too. He's also human, you know. Simply stating there are kids in the mix is not an excuse to stop one from getting out of an abusive, deceptive relationship. She wants to run off and leave her kids at home while she lays on her back, fine, but he's also entitled to moving quickly for divorce if she chooses not to be faithful to her family and herself.

 

No disagreement here.

 

Okay.

 

Indeed, she should have, I agree. But she didn't. And so as I pointed out above, that doesn't relieve him of the burden of taking the responsible, adult, parent role.

 

And as I said above, having kids doesn't mean you cater you automatically live solely to serve them. It doesn't cancel out his wants and it damn sure doesn't mean he has to stay miserable and remain a cuckold.

 

And so maybe if one of them starts out being the adult parent, maybe the other one will follow along.

 

No both of them are adults and they can make decisions for themselves. She knew what she had to do then and she knows what she needs to do now. She is not his responsibility. She's a grown ass woman.

 

And I know the common whine here: "why does it have to be him..." Well, it should be BOTH, but neither one gets excused because of what the other one does. If she doesn't step up, then it's her issue - she doesn't get a free pass - but he has no control over that.

 

Exactly but just because she continues to cheat and act like she's single doesn't mean he has to stay in limbo. Kids do not excuse nor minimize the trauma he must endure.

 

He needs to do what a parent should do.

 

Well that's your take on what a parent should do. What you do could be different than what other parents do and vice versa.

 

 

Completely agree.

 

Okay.

[Trimmer]

Children would rather see their parents happy apart rather than miserable together, although I don't count a cheater as a parent.

I don't suppose you do. Although I bet your son does.

 

See, your approach is predicated on the idea that once a spouse cheats, she is persona non grata, and less than human in all aspects. Not only is she unfit to be a wife (with which I completely agree), you can't even consider her a parent any more. It's a luxury to be able to hold to such a simple and very black-and-white view, but understand that kids also have a black-and-white view - which for them is at least developmentally age-appropriate - and their black-and-white view is that mom is mom, no matter what.

 

He's also human, you know. Simply stating there are kids in the mix is not an excuse to stop one from getting out of an abusive, deceptive relationship.

 

...he's also entitled to moving quickly for divorce if she chooses not to be faithful to her family and herself.

 

[having kids]...doesn't mean he has to stay miserable and remain a cuckold.

 

...just because she continues to cheat and act like she's single doesn't mean he has to stay in limbo.

To use your own phrase, "Nobody here said that but you." I think that in your zeal to disagree, you are misunderstanding me. Is there some part of my statements here that you are unclear about?

I'm squarely with you - to hell with your duplicitous, lying wife....

 

I agree with making a strong statement, laying down the papers, making it definitive, final, and non-negotiable....

 

The points that I make beyond that are:

 

(1) making the divorce process intentionally brutal and hostile in order to punish her is no guarantee of improving his own healing process, and

 

(2) making the divorce process intentionally brutal and hostile in order to punish her is unlikely to make the situation better for their kids, who, incidentally, will also continue to consider her their "parent" even though she is a cheater.

 

Well that's your take on what a parent should do. What you do could be different than what other parents do and vice versa.

I certainly agree and could shake hands with you over that, as long as you could agree it goes both ways, right back atcha...

 

I chose to discard my "wife" but to continue to respect her role as parent of my children. I believe this has helped me in my own healing - not wallowing in revenge, punishment, and bitterness, and also helped my children in continuing forward on a pretty normal developmental path. Indeed, in this environment, they have been able to be resilient. It sounds like you would advocate a different attitude, although I don't know exactly what you've done in your own situation as far as supporting your ex-wife's role in your son's life, etc. And if that works for you and your needs (if you really "did what needed to be done") and if it has truly produced the best outcome for your son, then I'm genuinely glad for you both.

 

And in the end, what's important in this thread is that I hope this mix of ideas helps the OP to consider how he will move forward.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Trimmer

[Saul Goodman]

Well, I have decided on a date: The papers start flying on the 12th of August.

 

Wish me luck guys. This is probably going to get very ugly.