I love you but I don't like you

[2sunny]

if it were me - i wouldn't believe ONE single word he says - unless his actions match his words. listen VERY carefully to each word he uses... and pay attention to voice inflection too - it will tell you a lot.

 

when he tries to tell you he's "lonely" simply tell him that is sad to hear.

 

if he gets to criticizing you for anything - you are allowed to state that he has his own opinion and you don't agree with his perception.

 

you are also allowed to help him understand that loving behavior isn't about throwing out unkind words and actions to the people we claim to love. it also doesn't need to include one person doing most of the giving and the other all the taking... a healthy balance feels like equal amounts of giving and receiving and looks effortless. one never ends up feeling used or abused by the other.

 

when you stop allowing him to treat you this way (by dumping all HIS $hit on you) then he will understand you don't expect to be treated that way any longer... and he'll have to stop... or find someone else to do that to. for instance - my exH doesn't DO those things to me anymore... he nows does all those crappy things to his new wife. he knows that i won't participate at all in those demeaning, disrespectful conversations that used to make me feel terrible so he could feel superior than me. those days are OVER!

 

take some of your power back... or at the very least - quit handing it all to him on a silver platter.

[itllgetbetter]

I returned his call this morning & kept the call brief (thanks for letting me know you've arrived safely, enjoy the time with your family). WRT his voice inflection , he sounded happy to hear from me.

[2sunny]

I returned his call this morning & kept the call brief (thanks for letting me know you've arrived safely, enjoy the time with your family). WRT his voice inflection , he sounded happy to hear from me.

 

good progress! whatever picture he paints for his Aunt - she has to have an idea that there are always three versions to every story. his - yours - and the truth.

 

he can toss his pity party to her all he wants - but it won't make what he's doing right. if he has time to sit and think while he's there - maybe his conscience will allow him to understand that HE always should look at how HE is participating... and understand that his actions or inactions always affects others. it's tough to do that exercise when people are around or if chaos is always present. for him to have time on his own can be useful.

 

IF he even begins to consider trying to make it work - you need to have a clear and concise list of requirements for HIM - IF you are even going to consider any effort to repair the M.

 

make your list...

 

it really is up to HIM to get a different attitude and perspective... one that considers YOU - YOUR FEELINGS - and HIS willingness to go to ANY length to repair the damage HE keeps causing. if he's not willing to DO anything you ask - there's no point in even speaking to him further.

 

 

fyi - the more comfortable you keep making him = the more he's not going to get willing. you want him to be so uncomfortable with what he has created - that he gets willing to change things... that he gets to the point of doing what YOU say you need to heal the M.

 

what would your list look like?

[itllgetbetter]

2sunny: sorry to repeat myself ... As for H doing something: the night he left in May (after he said he wanted to stay at home & I told him he should leave, so he did), I gave him "The Five Love Languages". He finished reading chapter 3. When I asked him about it in June, he said something like: "Are you assigning me homework?"

 

This past Monday when he was leaving the house to go to work, I really gently suggested that maybe he could take that book with him when he goes away and if he has the time and interest, he might want to look at it. When I was dropping him off at the airport, he said that he packed the book. If that's true, and he reads it, I think it'll be good for him.

 

As for me making a list - I haven't done that - perhaps because I don't feel as if he's going to come home - so, I don't want to disappoint myself. At the top of the list though would be: respect, courtesy, honoring and cherishing me.

[2sunny]

2sunny: sorry to repeat myself ... As for H doing something: the night he left in May (after he said he wanted to stay at home & I told him he should leave, so he did), I gave him "The Five Love Languages". He finished reading chapter 3. When I asked him about it in June, he said something like: "Are you assigning me homework?"

 

This past Monday when he was leaving the house to go to work, I really gently suggested that maybe he could take that book with him when he goes away and if he has the time and interest, he might want to look at it. When I was dropping him off at the airport, he said that he packed the book. If that's true, and he reads it, I think it'll be good for him.

 

As for me making a list - I haven't done that - perhaps because I don't feel as if he's going to come home - so, I don't want to disappoint myself. At the top of the list though would be: respect, courtesy, honoring and cherishing me.

 

for all we know - he could be reading that book so that he finds out how to communicate with his OW more effectively...

 

and your iist... those are words that don't tell SPECIFICS to a man like your H - as he may have no idea what "cherish, respect and honor" may actually look like for you. you're going to have to get really specific - as he may think taking out the trash once a week for you should cover them all... then complain that you weren't clear with him.

 

it may be more useful if you did some soul searching to understand what he needs to be DOING to make you feel "cherished, respected and honored" - for me - a start would be

 

listen carefully when we talk - always looking me in the eyes.

participate in the conversation

spend time with me each day

think of ways to SHOW me with your ACTIONS that you value me

show me that you are thinking of me when we aren't together

DO kind gestures that make me feel valued

give me your undivided attention when together

share your dreams and fears with me

show me that your actions and words are in alignment

 

 

you get the picture?

[itllgetbetter]

2sunny: Yes, I got the picture.

 

The thought of him reading the book to communicate with OW effectively occurred to me too.

 

"Cherish, respect and honor" - to me that means don't be thinking about OW & pining after her - I'd be pleased to spell that out for him if given the opportunity to do so.

 

Thanks for a good start on the list.

 

On a slightly different note, when the departing spouse or reconstructs history/gaslights (ie.,false information is presented to the BS with the intent of making them doubt their own memory and perception) the whole M, do they REALLY belive what they're telling you or do they know it's incorrect & they're just hoping BS will buy it and feel guilty for M breaking down?

Edited August 27, 2011 by itllgetbetter

[trippi1432]

2sunny: Yes, I got the picture.

 

The thought of him reading the book to communicate with OW effectively occurred to me too.

 

"Cherish, respect and honor" - to me that means don't be thinking about OW & pining after her - I'd be pleased to spell that out for him if given the opportunity to do so.

 

Thanks for a good start on the list.

 

On a slightly different note, when the departing spouse or reconstructs history/gaslights (ie.,false information is presented to the BS with the intent of making them doubt their own memory and perception) the whole M, do they REALLY belive what they're telling you or do they know it's incorrect & they're just hoping BS will buy it and feel guilty for M breaking down?

 

Gaslighting is very common....http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/power-in-relationships/200905/are-you-being-gaslighted

 

My reality set in when I was told that I make something out of nothing...I really stepped back and started assessing things and how they had been, started looking at things without allowing my emotions to get involved...without making excuses for the other person that things were all my fault. Gaslighting takes advantage of your insecurities, and when someone knows you well enough, that becomes very easy.

 

My first exH was good for this, having me think that something wasn't happening even though I knew in my gut it was. Once he claimed that the car kept breaking down on him...even left it on the side of the road and walked home at 5 am....funny, I went straight to the car and it cranked right up for me with no problems and never broke down again. However, during that exchange, I was informed that I was being distrustful of him, thought the worse of him...etc. When you are being gaslighted, it goes against your intuition, you doubt it and yourself. A few nights later, a friend drove me to our friend's house where he was...out he came with the girl he later got pregnant...so I guess my intuition was right.

 

In the dating world, I don't doubt my intuition anymore....when I start feeling gaslighted or things are being put on me that go against my intuition for someone else's gain, I simply remove myself from the situation. The key is knowing the signs of it and knowing it is NOT all you.

[itllgetbetter]

Trippi: Thanks for the reference to the article re gaslighting.

 

So, clearly the gaslighter knows they're gaslighting.

 

But, when they're lying to the BS, do they realize it? For example, when my H said we had nothing in common, did he believe it, or, did he know it wasn't true and he was hoping I'd believe it and hopefully it'd alleviate his guilt.

 

BTW, I'm halfway through Runaway Husbands and plan to do more reading this afternoon.

[2sunny]

Trippi: Thanks for the reference to the article re gaslighting.

 

So, clearly the gaslighter knows they're gaslighting.

 

But, when they're lying to the BS, do they realize it? For example, when my H said we had nothing in common, did he believe it, or, did he know it wasn't true and he was hoping I'd believe it and hopefully it'd alleviate his guilt.

 

BTW, I'm halfway through Runaway Husbands and plan to do more reading this afternoon.

 

it's designed to be hurtful - while he lies to himself and to you.

 

that kind of behavior isn't loving at all - and hard to tolerate for any length of time... because i always felt it in my gut... and realized that when i loved myself enough i would no longer tolerate any man treating me this way - while saying at the same time "i love you" - NO you do NOT say those things to someone you claim to love. so, for me, i had to quit betraying myself by even being willing to LISTEN to his lies!

 

i knew the things he was saying weren't true - yet he continued to try to find ways to hurt me to the core... and after 23 years - i told him not to come home... i wasn't going to put up with his words and actions no longer matching because he was the one living the big fat lie and i deserved to be loved completely - without his abusive and hurtful words.

 

i figure - IF he really, really loves you - he wouldn't be so hurtful to you. and you shouldn't allow it - not from him - not from anyone.

 

look in the mirror and tell yourself you deserve a man that WANTS to treat you like you want to be treated - with honor, respect and dignity. someone who REALLY, REALLY can't wait to see you and share their day with you.

[trippi1432]

Trippi: Thanks for the reference to the article re gaslighting.

 

So, clearly the gaslighter knows they're gaslighting.

 

But, when they're lying to the BS, do they realize it? For example, when my H said we had nothing in common, did he believe it, or, did he know it wasn't true and he was hoping I'd believe it and hopefully it'd alleviate his guilt.

 

BTW, I'm halfway through Runaway Husbands and plan to do more reading this afternoon.

 

That's really hard to tell IGB....it really depends on the person. If they are someone who tends to believe their own lies...then perhaps not. If they are a person who is typically of good character and now find themselves on the other side of trying to makes excuses, alleviate their own guilt...then perhaps they do know that they are lying.

 

When my exH said this same thing to me, I actually couldn't argue with it because it was true and I had the same complaint.

[2sunny]

are you paying attention to his body language when he says these things?

 

what his body is doing may give you a clue whether or not he KNOWS he's lying when he says those things...

 

either way - what does your gut tell you? your body will react even if your mind isn't FULLY processing what may be happening - so pay attention to what your gut, heart and head are telling you. when they are in balance/in alignment - there's never a pull from any of the three. when it's out of balance - you should recognize the body telling you "something is off."

[itllgetbetter]

2sunny: What a coincidence - I was at my aunt's for dinner tonight & she recommended I read "the four agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz which you recommended in your post #123.

 

Went to a movie & dinner with a girlfriend Sat. night. As soon as we walked into the restaurant, I saw a print of a painting I'd seen with H in a museum while travelling. In fact, all over the restaurant there were prints of various paintings we'd seen at various museums. Although I didn't say anything to girlfriend about that, it was a little upsetting.

 

Haven't heard from H since we spoke almost 4 days ago (he's on vacation at an aunt's house). Naturally the ONLY conclusion I've come to is that his aunt's advised him to forget about both me and OW. You may recall that Trippi, in post #112, said that blood's thicker than water, and in my post #113, I'd responded to Trippi saying that H's aunt would tell him he's making a mistake. I was referring to making a mistake about OW. But, don't worry, I will NOT call him.

 

Desperate times call for desperate measures: I can't believe I did this. Was at the hairdresser on Sat and she said she know's how to "read cards". Not tarrot cards though - playing cards/poker type cards. So I bought a deck of cards and went back to her later when she had some free time. The cards told her that I was seeing a woman that evening who does the same work I do. This was correct as the woman I went to movie & dinner with is a colleague of mine from the office.

 

The cards also told her that:

 

a) H's "confused and doesn't know what to do"

b) H "feels guilty"

c) OW is afraid H's going to come back to me

d) OW's afraid of me

e) OW's pressuring him to make a decision as she's REALLY "in love" with him

f) H's moving toward going home

g) I was close to H

h) H had a meeting early last week in which business finances were discussed & it didn't look good - meeting involved OW (on this point, you may recall that OW is a client of H's - my thought on that was perhaps her business/her boss now wants to send their work to someone else in light of what's happened with OW & H)

i) H's finances are going to get worse.

 

Hairdresser's now on vacation for the next 3 weeks but thought she should read the cards again when she gets back.

 

Listened to some radio clips on the website www.marriagebuilders.com. Earlier this afternoon, I purchased 3 of Dr. Harley's books (His Needs, Her Needs, Surviving an Affair and Fall in Love Stay in Love). Because I'm not technologically inclined, I had trouble ordering them on the internet & had to call customer support.

 

Some interesting statistics that Dr. Harley on marriagebuilders radio show discusses:

 

a) 95% of affairs fail within the first 2 years;

b) only 5% of relationships that began from an affair lead to M;

c) 70% of M's that began from an affair end in D.

 

When I was going over the titles of the books I was getting with the sales rep, I made a joke about the situation I'm in, and she responded "been there" (her exH tried wanted to get back together with her several times and 12 years later, she M again & is much happier) so, we chatted a bit & I commented that I'm REALLY busy reading all these self-help books and I'm not sure what he's been doing to improve things on the homefront.

 

Trippi: Your post 135 on whether walkaway spouse knows they're lying when they lie to you about all the many reasons you shouldn't be together: My H's of good character BUT, he's been rather narcissistic throughout this situation - in fact, sometimes I think "you look like my H but you're not sounding or acting anything like my H."

 

2sunny #136: wrt his body language, we weren't together when he said he missed me, etc. However, the night he left when he was saying he wanted to stay, my gut was saying he didn't want to stay for the right reasons.

Edited August 30, 2011 by itllgetbetter

[2sunny]

read the four agreements first! it's a small book which can help YOU in every area of your life!

[trippi1432]

2sunny: What a coincidence - I was at my aunt's for dinner tonight & she recommended I read "the four agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz which you recommended in your post #123.

 

Some interesting statistics that Dr. Harley on marriagebuilders radio show discusses:

 

a) 95% of affairs fail within the first 2 years;

b) only 5% of relationships that began from an affair lead to M;

c) 70% of M's that began from an affair end in D.

 

Trippi: Your post 135 on whether walkaway spouse knows they're lying when they lie to you about all the many reasons you shouldn't be together: My H's of good character BUT, he's been rather narcissistic throughout this situation - in fact, sometimes I think "you look like my H but you're not sounding or acting anything like my H."

 

Yes, in fact pretty much the norm in this situation. For me, time will tell on C above, but by the time it does, it won't really matter as I am better without him.

 

2sunny #136: wrt his body language, we weren't together when he said he missed me, etc. However, the night he left when he was saying he wanted to stay, my gut was saying he didn't want to stay for the right reasons.

 

Your gut was most likely pretty spot on in this situation, therefore you should not have one ounce of guilt when he says that you made him move out...he was already there due to his inconsistency in his thinking. On him, not you.

 

read the four agreements first! it's a small book which can help YOU in every area of your life!

 

My hairdresser recommended it to me....and she cuts his hair too. LOL!

[itllgetbetter]

I read on the internet that "statistics indicate that couples who attempt to reconcile after an affair have a 70% chance of staying together."

 

That seems rather high based on what I've read on the LS website. Any thoughts on that?

 

2sunny: I bought "The Four Agreements" today & will start reading it - between reading books on this issue, reading on this website, reading and listening to radio segments on the marriagebuilders website, friends/family trying to keep me busy, and working, I'm swamped.

[andyg99]

I read on the internet that "statistics indicate that couples who attempt to reconcile after an affair have a 70% chance of staying together."

 

That seems rather high based on what I've read on the LS website. Any thoughts on that?

 

 

that sounds way too high - but then again it says "70% chance of staying together" - doesn't say anything about a happy marriage... I'd say the chances of being happy with someone who has cheated and has zero respect for the person they hurt is very low...

[itllgetbetter]

andyg99: I agree with your statement "the chances of being happy with someone who has cheated and has zero respect for the person they hurt is very low". However, if the person who cheated was remorseful, etc., AND respected their spouse, can't they be happy then? Or, are you saying that person who cheated will never respect their spouse again after they've cheated?

[trippi1432]

I read on the internet that "statistics indicate that couples who attempt to reconcile after an affair have a 70% chance of staying together."

 

That seems rather high based on what I've read on the LS website. Any thoughts on that?

 

2sunny: I bought "The Four Agreements" today & will start reading it - between reading books on this issue, reading on this website, reading and listening to radio segments on the marriagebuilders website, friends/family trying to keep me busy, and working, I'm swamped.

 

IGB - LS is not the holy grail for stats....and those stats you quote are from Brown, E. (1999). Affairs: A Guide to Working Through the Repercussions of Infidelity. San Francisco: Jossey-Bass.Dyn, B. & Glenn, M. (1993, July/August). Hard to say how they have changed over the years with economic fall out, job losses...and a general unrest within couples over the decade and a half. In either case...best not to measure yourself against a statistic.

 

There are many books by Ruiz...starting with The Four Agreements, there is also the Fifth Agreement, The Voice of Knowledge, The Mastery of Love and a follow up book on Ruiz called The Gift of Forgiveness. All are very good reads and actually based on, what I would deem, as common sense and learning to love yourself and live a drama free life....learning to live within your own truth and not someone else's perception of who you are, but who you know yourself to be....free of anger, regret or remorse.

[2sunny]

andyg99: I agree with your statement "the chances of being happy with someone who has cheated and has zero respect for the person they hurt is very low". However, if the person who cheated was remorseful, etc., AND respected their spouse, can't they be happy then? Or, are you saying that person who cheated will never respect their spouse again after they've cheated?

 

the main problem is with what your expectations are: you expect your H to change into a man that IS remorseful (he doesn't act like it), and who is respectful (he does speak kindly to you) - THEN you would be happy.

 

life isn't like that. YOU are the only one who can change. YOU need to learn how YOU can be happy with or without him.

 

THEN you won't need to put up with so much of his unacceptable behaviors. get a boundary and stick to it... hopefully YOU will learn to love YOU first. you deserve that! keep reading!!! all the books Trippi mentioned are awesome.

[itllgetbetter]

Like others whose spouse have left for OW/OM, I had difficulty sleeping at night, always woke up well before the alarm clock went off & couldn't get back to sleep. I recall telling myself that I'll know I'm handling the situation better when I wake up after alarm goes off and not before.

 

Well, today was the first day since H left that I woke up after alarm went off. It was SO NICE.

 

2sunny: H hasn't been remorseful thus far for what he's done (you might recall that according to him, it's my fault that he's doing this). It's not that I expect him to "change" and be remorseful. However, if at some point in the future he sees the error in his ways and wants to come back, I think remorse would be an appropriate message to convey, amongst many others.

[2sunny]

Like others whose spouse have left for OW/OM, I had difficulty sleeping at night, always woke up well before the alarm clock went off & couldn't get back to sleep. I recall telling myself that I'll know I'm handling the situation better when I wake up after alarm goes off and not before.

 

Well, today was the first day since H left that I woke up after alarm went off. It was SO NICE.

 

2sunny: H hasn't been remorseful thus far for what he's done (you might recall that according to him, it's my fault that he's doing this). It's not that I expect him to "change" and be remorseful. However, if at some point in the future he sees the error in his ways and wants to come back, I think remorse would be an appropriate message to convey, amongst many others.

 

so really - what you are telling me is - unless HE completely changes his attitude AND behavior - there's really no reason to spend time and/or energy thinking about what he is or isn't doing/saying - unless it completely changes... is that correct?

 

i think THAT would be a good start for YOU - a solid boundary to work from... in the meantime YOU can learn to be happy with or without him. THAT would be change for YOU.

 

when YOU allow yourself to be happy no matter what the circumstances - that is when you will feel progress.

[andyg99]

andyg99: I agree with your statement "the chances of being happy with someone who has cheated and has zero respect for the person they hurt is very low". However, if the person who cheated was remorseful, etc., AND respected their spouse, can't they be happy then? Or, are you saying that person who cheated will never respect their spouse again after they've cheated?

 

I think sunny has already said what I wanted to reply so let me just add this: the person you are now is someone he can walk all over, if he came back I fear you would let him and nothing would change. You need to make the changes that shows (not just him but everyone in your life) you DESERVE RESPECT. Only when you get to that point could you ever have hope of being happy with him if he came back, because you would DEMAND things of him and actually set boundaries and follow through with the consequences if they were crossed.

 

Make those changes! I'm sorry to say I see little chance of him doing what needs to be done to ever make your marriage work again. And to tell you the truth if you get to truly be the strong woman we know you can be then you'd probably get to the point where you wouldn't want him back no matter what he tells you.

[itllgetbetter]

andyg99: You say that you think there's little chance of him doing what needs to be done to make M work. Are you saying that because he's done nothing so far? A very small point on that issue: He did say he took "The Five Love Languages" with him to read on his trip, so, perhaps he'll read it. That's a small step in the right direction.

 

I'm off to visit relatives for the weekend and I think they'll be of a similar mindset to you Andy, as well as 2sunny.

 

I've been thinking a bit about why, when he said he wanted to stay at home back in May, after he'd said he was moving out, I asked him to leave. Thus far, I've said it was because my "gut" told me he really didn't want to stay. I think it's more than that though. I think it's because I knew that even if I'd asked that he never see/speak to OW again, and he agreed (which may not have happened, the excuse being she's a client), I don't think he would have followed through.

[2sunny]

andyg99: You say that you think there's little chance of him doing what needs to be done to make M work. Are you saying that because he's done nothing so far? A very small point on that issue: He did say he took "The Five Love Languages" with him to read on his trip, so, perhaps he'll read it. That's a small step in the right direction.

 

I'm off to visit relatives for the weekend and I think they'll be of a similar mindset to you Andy, as well as 2sunny.

 

I've been thinking a bit about why, when he said he wanted to stay at home back in May, after he'd said he was moving out, I asked him to leave. Thus far, I've said it was because my "gut" told me he really didn't want to stay. I think it's more than that though. I think it's because I knew that even if I'd asked that he never see/speak to OW again, and he agreed (which may not have happened, the excuse being she's a client), I don't think he would have followed through.

 

i think your gut was triggering you - because he is working from a place of so much deception.

 

IF he REAAAALLLYYY wanted AND intented to BE with YOU and ONLY you - HE'D be doing EVERYTHING he could possibly DO to EARN your trust back - by his actions AND his words, which MUST match!

 

but he's not...

 

believe me - it takes WAY more than packing a book for a trip - to make it APPEAR that you MIGHT apply the principles read to your life!

 

 

the one who ends up caring more about making it work - is usually the one with the least power to make it happen = and it appears that THAT is you.

 

he's not been DOING anything to make sure HE repairs the damage HE caused - therefore - you have NOTHING to work with.

 

when you realize that HE needs to be making the effort - and you need to sit back and just WATCH - watch his actions - then you may see that HE'S either willing to DO the work HE needs to DO - or HE won't!

 

so far - he's not doing any of it! in fact - while he's not doing any of it... he also steps in and blasts you with condescending and disrespectful remarks... and YOU allow it!

 

if it were me - i'd tell him NOT to speak to me even for ONE WORD - that his actions are enough to show me everything i need to understand!

 

he needs counseling! until that chip is knocked off his shoulder, there is nothing you can do... in fact the only reason he has YOU participate is to grow his big ego bigger.

 

i wouldn't grant a man like that the privilege of being around me for one second... he doesn't deserve you with the state of mind he's in. since he thinks HE'S so great - let him figure out what it's like to be all on his own.

[itllgetbetter]

2sunny: I'm definitely the one that's caring more & with the least power. Not a good position to be in.

 

He was getting counselling but said almost 2 weeks ago that he didn't think he'll continue with it because he didn't think he'd get anything more out of it.

 

As far as figuring out what'd be like to be on his own, apparently he doesn't think it'd be too bad since he's been on his own (if you don't count OW that is) for over three months now & it doesn't appear that he's considering returning home, which makes me feel worse since I keep thinking "really, was it SOOOOO bad at home that you prefer to live on your own?"