French kissing - Was I getting the message right?

[Zaphod B]

I'm a male in my early 40s. You'd consider me one of the nice guys normally. I've never had a lot of experience with dating because I was always staunchly religious as a young adult and I married young. Have had two long term relationships. Have now been on the dating scene for nearly 2 years now and have had mixed success, but felt I have learnt a lot over this time and have grown in confidence when it comes to women, however I still consider myself a bit clueless.

 

I'm kind of confused and down at the moment. I went out Saturday night and met this really amazing woman. Russian, new in town, spoke very little English and had already had 4 glasses of wine. She was a friend of a friend of a friend. In her late 30s I think. We seemed to hit it off and later we were dancing raunchily and we made out on the dance floor. She then started to French kiss me.Later on in the evening I boldly asked if she would like to come back to my place, which was a huge step for me, especially considering we'd only just met. She seemed responsive to this idea, but her friend... rightfully so, talked her out of it. Or so it seemed to me as they were both talking in Russian. However, she did say she wanted to see me again. Even though I am open to a fling or a one night stand, that is not all I am after. Every woman I meet I see as a potential life partner as that is what I'm looking for. I really liked this woman and thought she was something special. I in no way wanted to disrespect her. I'm afraid that I gave her a bad impression... as well as her friend.

 

Anyway, to cut to the chase, when I tried to pass my phone number on through her friend, later (because I'd forgotten to exchange numbers that night), I got the message back that she was not interested and felt that I had been rushing things. Of course, me being who I am I beat myself up about it, especially when it came to asking her back to my place. But then I got to thinking about the whole French Kissing thing. She instigated that, not me. In my experience, if a woman French kisses you it means she wants to take it further. At least if she is genuine.

 

So my question is mainly to any women here. If a woman french kisses a man does that mean she is looking to go to the next step, ie sex? Was I right in thinking that was what she wanted or was I being a jerk asking her back to my place after only just meeting her?

Edited August 1, 2011 by Zaphod B

[qmqmqm]

I'm a male in my early 40s. You'd consider me one of the nice guys normally. I've never had a lot of experience with dating because I was always staunchly religious as a young adult and I married young. Have had two long term relationships. Have now been on the dating scene for nearly 2 years now and have had mixed success, but felt I have learnt a lot over this time and have grown in confidence when it comes to women, however I still consider myself a bit clueless.

 

I'm kind of confused and down at the moment. I went out Saturday night and met this really amazing woman. Russian, new in town, spoke very little English and had already had 4 glasses of wine. She was a friend of a friend of a friend. In her late 30s I think. We seemed to hit it off and later we were dancing raunchily and we made out on the dance floor. She then started to French kiss me.Later on in the evening I boldly asked if she would like to come back to my place, which was a huge step for me, especially considering we'd only just met. She seemed responsive to this idea, but her friend... rightfully so, talked her out of it. Or so it seemed to me as they were both talking in Russian. However, she did say she wanted to see me again. Even though I am open to a fling or a one night stand, that is not all I am after. Every woman I meet I see as a potential life partner as that is what I'm looking for. I really liked this woman and thought she was something special. I in no way wanted to disrespect her. I'm afraid that I gave her a bad impression... as well as her friend.

 

Anyway, to cut to the chase, when I tried to pass my phone number on through her friend, later (because I'd forgotten to exchange numbers that night), I got the message back that she was not interested and felt that I had been rushing things. Of course, me being who I am I beat myself up about it, especially when it came to asking her back to my place. But then I got to thinking about the whole French Kissing thing. She instigated that, not me. In my experience, if a woman French kisses you it means she wants to take it further. At least if she is genuine.

 

So my question is mainly to any women here. If a woman french kisses a man does that mean she is looking to go to the next step, ie sex? Was I right in thinking that was what she wanted or was I being a jerk asking her back to my place after only just meeting her?

 

I had a similar experience last night. No french kissing, but we danced and she laughed a lot. We looked into each others eyes a lot, and the body language on the dance floor was totally on. I kissed her gently on the nose. It was her first time at that club, and she was, you guessed it, with a female friend. (Women always go out with their friends.) Her friend watched the whole thing happen I think.

 

Her friend asked her to dance, and they were talking the whole time.

 

At some point I told her I was leaving, and I would like to get her email address. She said sure. So I said hold on, I'll go grab a pen. It took me less than half a minute to come back, by which time she was already on the dance floor again with another guy... And in a short time she and her friend disappeared from the place, and from my life.

 

Why do women prevent their friends from going further with guys? I have not a clue... I'd say most guys are good in my region. We are not going to eat the woman or anything.

Edited August 1, 2011 by qmqmqm

[Zaphod B]

Thanks Karen. Yeah, it could have been a hundred reasons why she didn't want to go out with me again and she was just using that as an excuse perhaps. It's hard to know. I'm one of these types of people that will run questions over and over in my head and try to fathom answers, knowing full well I will never know the answers. But I'll still beat myself up! I was in a brief relationship with a woman a year and a half ago now and it ended over a real stupid misunderstanding. She was like the woman of my dreams and even now after all this time I still beat myself up over it sometimes, thinking why didn't I do this or say that? Trying to figure out how things turned out the way the did. sigh.

 

Hey qmqmqm, I feel for you. Women often accuse men of being pigs, but in my experience women can be just as cold hearted. I have come across so many game players over the last 2 years it's just not funny. Ones that make you think they want you and then ignore your messages. Ones that have sex with you, seem to enjoy it (I know I'm not a lousy lover! ha ha )and then disappear out of your life. I don't mind being used for sex, I just wish they'd be more upfront and just come out and say "Hey, I don't think we're suited" or make some other excuse. But no, often they'll just stop returning your calls and messages and leave you wondering what the hell you did wrong. At least that seems to be the way things are here in New Zealand!

Edited August 1, 2011 by Zaphod B

[Zaphod B]

qmqmqm. A met another woman at the same club about a month and a half ago. Really lovely, really beautiful. It was coming near the end of the night and she was the sober driver for her friends. I went to talk to her and we really seemed to have a lot in common so I asked her if she wanted to get together for a drink sometime. She was really keen.

 

We went on two dates and our last one we went to play some pool together and intended going to the club for dancing afterwards. We were having a great time and seemed to be really hitting it off. I flirted with her a bit, but nothing more. Then she mysteriously got a text message from a friend who was having some kind of a "crisis". Then about 15 minutes later when it was time to go to the club she cut the date short to go see her friend. I thought ok, I took her word for it, but I figured, ok, I'm gonna at least make a move tonight if it's going to end here so at the car I took a hold of her and began to kiss her. She was really into that and after that was all smiles saying that was really lovely. We agreed to meet up the following afternoon.

 

Come the next afternoon though she texted me cancelling our date saying she was having to do an emergency trip out of town. We made another date where I invited her to dinner and to bring her 2 year old daughter as well to save her having to get a baby sitter. She was saying how that was a wonderful idea, but once again cancelled at the last moment, this time with an excuse about having to take her mother to visit an uncle in hospital in another town. Then after that she never returned any of my text messages. Yep. Another game player! sigh. I seem to attract them, but I can't seem to figure out why! I seriously suspect this particular one was either a gold digger or had someone else she was seeing.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Zaphod B

[qmqmqm]

Bizarre...

 

They say men are from Mars and women are from Venus, I think it is true lol

 

Are there any ladies out there reading this (or even guys) who can break this down and tell us innocent creatures from Mars why you are doing these things? And what men should do in these situations?

 

Cheers!

 

Tom

[thatone]

because women are jealous and vindictive to each other, even if they are friends, and if one surpasses the other the other will sabotage her.

 

what should men do? in your case where you're stuck with the two of them in a bar, you need to plan your offer to leave together when the friend is occupied (bathroom, dancing with some other guy, talking on her phone, whatever) to put her to a decision while they're separated.

 

furthermore, when you're talking about dating purposes, if you know the days that they see those female friends in a typical week and can plan dates on those days, you should do so to limit the access of the friends as much as possible.

 

divide and conquer, to put it simply.

Edited August 1, 2011 by thatone

[Zaphod B]

An update on this if anyone is interested...

 

Couldn't believe it. Yesterday morning (Sunday for me), I got a phone call from this lady. Seems that I read the messages I got from her very well indeed and she was as keen as what I thought. I even apologised to her for being so forward and asking her back to my place but she was very adament that there was nothing to apologise about and she was quite fine with that. It seems that all this crap about not being interested was just her friend being over protective and not approving of me. She was very keen to see me again, however had not contacted me earlier due to the language issue. Seems she had to twist her friend's arm to get my phone number so she could ring me. So anyway she wanted me to go out with her and her daughter somewhere and even wanted to bring another Russian friend along to act as an translator so we could get to know each other better without the communication barrier. So I spent the afternoon with them. Seems despite asking her back to my place that night she still saw that I was a good guy and someone she wanted to see again. I even had coffee at her place last night, without the translator being there and we actually did ok communicationwise and time flew. Next thing 2 hours had gone by.

 

She is coming around for dinner on Tues night and wants to go dancing again at some stage and for me to hook her translator friend up with one of my friends. Ha ha!

 

I hope it all goes well, but I am being very cautious because I have come across too many game players recently so want to be sure she's not one. The fact that she's gone to so much effort to see me though and has introduced me to her daughter, has to be a positive thing.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Zaphod B

[carhill]

In my experience, if a woman French kisses you it means she wants to take it further. At least if she is genuine.

 

I hope your experience is more meaningful and accurate than mine. Sorry to say it doesn't match up.

 

I have a few data points with CIS women, including sexual relations, and the singular commonality IME has been how strong-willed they are. Very little bends their will and that includes friends.

 

Enjoy your dinner on Tuesday and look for her actions, including consistency, to match up with her words. Words, especially with a language barrier, can be 'misunderstood'. Actions generally indicate truth.

 

If she disappears again, game over.

[Zaphod B]

Yeah. The cynical side of me is expecting her to cancel our date at the last moment. I hope not!

[carhill]

It's OK to be cynical. It's also OK to enjoy dinner with a lady whom one finds attractive. Accept both. Right now, dinner is on and a cancellation is not on the horizon. I find accepting my cynical (from life experience) side actually helps me enjoy relations and events even more. Understanding the potentials leaves no downside. IOW, I'm rarely to never disappointed and the resultant feelings are generally to completely positive. Learned that tool in MC.

[Cypress25]

When women go out in a group, they look out for each other. They're not being jealous or vindictive, they're being protective. Why? Because people do stupid things when they're drunk, and going home with a guy you just met is very stupid indeed. You could be a rapist. You could be a killer. You could be anything. It's dangerous to go home with a strange man in a club, so if this girl has decent friends, they'll make sure she gets home safe.

 

General clubbing advice for women is never leave the club with a guy you just met. Give him your number and then leave with the people you came with. If he's really that hot, he'll still be that hot tomorrow.

[dasein]

because women are jealous and vindictive to each other, even if they are friends, and if one surpasses the other the other will sabotage her.

 

In light of how things are turning out, seems like the above was what was going on.

 

Personally, her getting drunk before your date would have been a red flag to me. Have had very poor luck with women who do this kind of thing my whole life. Good luck in getting them to bed, bad luck in anything substantial forming.

 

Maybe this one will turn out well for you.

[Zaphod B]

When women go out in a group, they look out for each other. They're not being jealous or vindictive, they're being protective. Why? Because people do stupid things when they're drunk, and going home with a guy you just met is very stupid indeed. You could be a rapist. You could be a killer. You could be anything. It's dangerous to go home with a strange man in a club, so if this girl has decent friends, they'll make sure she gets home safe.

 

General clubbing advice for women is never leave the club with a guy you just met. Give him your number and then leave with the people you came with. If he's really that hot, he'll still be that hot tomorrow.

 

I do agree with you. Although on this ocassion it wasn't a matter of me being some stranger she'd just met in a bar. I had been introduced through a good friend who already had a high level of trust with her and her friend. She did say to me on Sunday that when she drinks she "goes crazy", so it may be that her friend knew that and that maybe they'd agreed to look out for each other. She is saying that next time we go dancing she just drinks water. Ha ha.

[Zaphod B]

In light of how things are turning out, seems like the above was what was going on.

 

I think maybe her friend disapproved of me after I asked her back to my place. I think you may be right though and she thinks I am not a good guy and not good enough for her friend. Just as well the lady I am seeing believes otherwise! I don't think it was about jealousy though but just her being... perhaps in this case, over protective

 

Personally, her getting drunk before your date would have been a red flag to me. Have had very poor luck with women who do this kind of thing my whole life. Good luck in getting them to bed, bad luck in anything substantial forming.

 

It was not actually an official date. She was in town wanting to go dancing with her friend and my friend. My freind texted me to come and meet her. By the time I'd got there she'd had 4 wines apprently. Based on what she said to me this last Sunday it seems she may be well aware that alcohol affects her negatively.

 

Maybe this one will turn out well for you.

 

Here's hoping. She is a real keeper in my books. I am now taking things slowly. I really want this to work. Her and her daughter are coming to my place for dinner tonight. In 3 hours I am going to pick her up but I am dreading a text or phone call from her to say she has to cancel. In fact one of my work colleagues played a practical joke on me about 20 minutes ago, texted me, pretending he was her, cancelling our date. Bastard! He really had me going.

[carhill]

Dread indicates to me emotional investment perhaps in excess of what is healthy for such a new situation with a relative stranger. I mention this because we aren't that far apart in age and life experience generally teaches these lessons. I learned relatively late, in my 30's, not to invest in unknown people. Be attracted, check; experience desire, sure. Take all that stuff as the brain chemistry it is and as a transient, situational state, having very little to do with the other person themselves.

 

The date will be what it will be. If it ends up being some beer for one and an a flick on the DVD player, that's cool too. Loving yourself is loving your space and place in life. Other people aren't required.

 

TBH, IME, women don't involve their children in love/romantic/sexual situations until far down the road. Female friends, sure. The man is more of a superficial relation and friends come and go and are easily dismissed as such. That dynamic would concern me a little if I was attracted to the lady sexually. However, it is what it is. If it works out, it does. If you get the 'friend' vibe, execute your boundary. Like I indicated upthread, I've felt the tongue from plenty of game players in life, and 'friend-zoned' when push came to shove. Nice game. Accepted.

[Zaphod B]

Oh I agree, Carhill, it's crazy that I am so worried about this, but that is the type of person I am and I can't help that. I haven't quite figured out how to deal with my stupid brain. I often dwell on stuff I shouldn't dwell on. What can I do about it?

 

This woman is a solo mum whose English is very bad. She is new in town , having fled the Christchurch earthquakes. She is a student and when not studying is stuck at home most of the time with her 8 year old daughter. She has little options as the only one she has to baby sit for her is her 20 year old son who does not live with her and who is not often available to baby sit.

 

My main concern is that she may be a gold digger and looking for someone to support her and her daughter, but it's too early to say at this point. For now I will trust she is genuine and see where it goes.

[carhill]

One babysitting option is the very protective female friend. File for future use.

 

Yeah, I know what you mean about 'worried'. I used to be like that. Getting married cured me

[Zaphod B]

Didn't cure me! Ha ha. I was married for 11 years.

 

I have a 17 year old daughter. I'm sure I can twist her arm to do some baby sitting. Actually I wouldn't have to twist her arm just offer her a few dollars.

[Zaphod B]

Well so much for that. Just got a text from her. She is busy and has to cancel. Yeah, whatever.

[Feelin Frisky]

Some women do things like that because they can. They may have a laugh too with each other. Such is the cruelty of meat-market encounters. It pays to treat 'em like crap instead of buckling in the knees with emotion. It's a total game some time and people here know it a lot. It's the whole why do hot chicks like the bad boy thing? He's running the game on them that puts them in the buckling position. It's animal sociology to be avoided by "feelers"--it will crush you.

[carhill]

I recall the last time I dated and called the lady to arrange the date and got the 'busy' response. I said 'no problem, I'm on my way to Singapore; take care' and never talked to her again. The response wasn't a lie. I was at the airport on my way. I don't wait around for women anymore. Big world, lots of potentials.

[thatone]

When women go out in a group, they look out for each other. They're not being jealous or vindictive, they're being protective. Why? Because people do stupid things when they're drunk, and going home with a guy you just met is very stupid indeed. You could be a rapist. You could be a killer. You could be anything. It's dangerous to go home with a strange man in a club, so if this girl has decent friends, they'll make sure she gets home safe.

 

General clubbing advice for women is never leave the club with a guy you just met. Give him your number and then leave with the people you came with. If he's really that hot, he'll still be that hot tomorrow.

 

they're being protective of themselves, but not each other. if two women go to a bar and one leaves with a man the other is alone again.

 

that's the bottom line.

[Zaphod B]

Really wish I could be the bad boy, FF, I really do, but it just goes against my personality. I definitely need to find ways I can be more like that and still be comfortable with myself. I definitely don't want to pretend to be something I'm not and I also fear that if I try to be the jerk, it will all backfire on me. I think I'd rather blow things by being myself, the nice guy, rather than blow things by being something I'm not.

 

But I do understand that nice guys finish last and although it may not always be the case, it's the case in general. The rule. No matter what anybody says. Sure nice guys can get the woman...but generally just the average woman. They rarely get the really desirable ones, the ones that all men want... well they certainly never get to keep them for long that's for sure!

 

I'm not calling this woman. If she really was busy and it was a legitimate reason well then she can call me. But I have recieved no further communication from her since that one text message. I am completely pissed off right now and getting bloody fed up with women in general. I've been getting this **** a lot lately and just can't figure out where I'm going wrong apart from being a nice guy. Are all single women game players? Can't they just be up front with you and say they're not interested?

Edited August 30, 2011 by Zaphod B

[mindfuq]

I'm a male in my early 40s. You'd consider me one of the nice guys normally. I've never had a lot of experience with dating because I was always staunchly religious as a young adult and I married young. Have had two long term relationships. Have now been on the dating scene for nearly 2 years now and have had mixed success, but felt I have learnt a lot over this time and have grown in confidence when it comes to women, however I still consider myself a bit clueless.

 

I'm kind of confused and down at the moment. I went out Saturday night and met this really amazing woman. Russian, new in town, spoke very little English and had already had 4 glasses of wine. She was a friend of a friend of a friend. In her late 30s I think. We seemed to hit it off and later we were dancing raunchily and we made out on the dance floor. She then started to French kiss me.Later on in the evening I boldly asked if she would like to come back to my place, which was a huge step for me, especially considering we'd only just met. She seemed responsive to this idea, but her friend... rightfully so, talked her out of it. Or so it seemed to me as they were both talking in Russian. However, she did say she wanted to see me again. Even though I am open to a fling or a one night stand, that is not all I am after. Every woman I meet I see as a potential life partner as that is what I'm looking for. I really liked this woman and thought she was something special. I in no way wanted to disrespect her. I'm afraid that I gave her a bad impression... as well as her friend.

 

Anyway, to cut to the chase, when I tried to pass my phone number on through her friend, later (because I'd forgotten to exchange numbers that night), I got the message back that she was not interested and felt that I had been rushing things. Of course, me being who I am I beat myself up about it, especially when it came to asking her back to my place. But then I got to thinking about the whole French Kissing thing. She instigated that, not me. In my experience, if a woman French kisses you it means she wants to take it further. At least if she is genuine.

 

So my question is mainly to any women here. If a woman french kisses a man does that mean she is looking to go to the next step, ie sex? Was I right in thinking that was what she wanted or was I being a jerk asking her back to my place after only just meeting her?

 

Well i used to live in Germany and i've met countless Russian girls there, they are really fun to hang out with and really outgoing, i don't really know what happened with you here but you should at least invest in a girl that speaks more than just a few words so u don't get lost in translation.

[cupcakekk]

if you wanna meet a nice respectable girl that wants a long term relationship YOU ARE LOOKING IN THE WRONG PLACE. dont go to clubs looking for love!