laughing at someone behind his/her back -- have you ever?...

[moimeme]

I'm not insulting. I'm trying to figure out what stage of life you're at.

 

Look, people's preferences in people are the same as all their other tastes - and that's all they are. There is no earthly reason for anyone to conform to others' preferences, including in people. You change yourself to please someone and then that someone dies or goes away and the next person doesn't like the you you became for someone else. You cannot be a chameleon in life.

 

I don't like lobster. I love chocolate. If you were a lobster, should you wish you were chocolate to please me?

No way! You say to yourself that I can like what I want, but there are people who appreciate lobster and those are the people you want to be with. And you become the very best lobster you can be.

 

Be who you want to be. Don't give others your self to mold to their tastes. And if the you you become isn't to the tastes of millions, so what? You can only really manage really good relationships with a few people over a lifetime, so rather than expending your energy into turning yourself into whatever you think 'everybody' wants you to be, spend that time being who you should be and you will find people who like you just for who you are.

[krbshappy71]

Originally posted by moimeme

Have you reached your 20s yet, heartattacked?

 

Um...I didn't read this as insulting....I, too, am often curious of the ages of the people who post here. There are also certain milestones that are reached at certain ages as far as development goes. I don't think moimeme was trying to offend you.

 

Back to the topic: I have a certain circle of friends that DO talk about each other behind their backs. Its all in good fun and we don't say anything we wouldn't say to their face....probably because what goes around DOES come around in a close circle of friends. (as far as conversations go, that is) Some of us share more than others because of our comfort levels with this situation. That doesn't mean I don't have people in my life that I CAN divulge to...it just not these people. You have to feel people out and decide just how much you are willing to share. When talking about others, make sure it isn't ANYTHING you wouldn't share if they were sitting right there. Laughing? Are we talking wicked making-fun-of laughing or just chuckling fondly about the person and their foibles?

 

I tend to try and beat people to the punch...make fun of myself first....admit my mistakes before they hit the grapevine and get blown out of proportion, etc. I also bite my tongue if I realize I am being "gossipy". "We hate in others what we hate in ourselves" and I know this is a weakness of mine so I try and keep it in check so I can be a better person.

[heartattacked]

No, you can't go around pleasing everyone at every turn. And life is too short to be the best ME I can be, let alone being the best of many different personalities.

 

But I insist that if the people who are valued by me, whether the relationship is romantic, friendship, or family, if one of them does not view me at times in a favorable light, this affects me - no matter the level of maturity I have reached. If I care for a person, it seems to me that I also care about what they think - and especially what they think of me. Are you somehow beyond the limitation of self-centeredness? Do you suggest that a mature, independent person is not ever selfish? And if a person remains selfish throughout his or her whole life, which I most certainly think they do, I therefore also assume that they still desire, if not need, approval from others they care about. Who can survive long without some sort of acknowledgement that people like you? Wouldn't we turn into self-loathing, suicidal creatures if we thought that no one ever found anything useful about us? Would it really matter if I thought that I was such a great person, but no one else shared the same view? Wouldn't I question my self-perception? If I was honest with myself?

[moimeme]

Would it really matter if I thought that I was such a great person, but no one else shared the same view?

 

And this is what is called building a straw man. There would never be such a person or such a situation and therefore it's moot as a debating point.

 

Wouldn't we turn into self-loathing, suicidal creatures if we thought that no one ever found anything useful about us?

 

Nope. We could turn into perfectly happy eccentrics, totally blissed out on all the joys the world has to offer (and there are many) and figure the rest of the world is nuts for not seeing how great we really are. We could say to them 'if you're too dumb to understand how great I am, then you don't deserve me anyway' which is not immodest, but realistic because everybody has something great about them and it just takes the right person to see it.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t38242

[krbshappy71]

Good article, Moi.

 

We need others....if only to learn about ourselves.

[heartattacked]

How do you know that there has never been such a person? Who are you to say that someone hasn't walked through this life being subjected to nothing but ridicule and belittlement at every turn? Do you, my friend, still think that somehow this person will rise above and say to their great little self "gee, even if no one else likes me, even if the others call me names and mock me, I still say I'm a great person of worth and that is enough for me, the rest of the world is in the dark, but NOT ME, no way!"

 

I'm sorry, but you are starting to sound a little too disconnected from the real world here. There have been plenty of people who were, in general, despised by the world.

[moimeme]

Not unless they are murderers or rapists or torturers. What you need to do is to try to find evidence that what you believe is actually true. You won't and then perhaps can drop your jaundiced view of the world.

 

Of course, if you go around with the attitude that everyone hates you, people will pick up that notion from you yourself. On the other hand, if you focus your attention outward and concentrate on liking others rather than wondering if they like you, you will find that, magically, once you finally forget about yourself and extend genuine liking to others, they will respond very favourably. I'm not talking about needy or fake displays of kindness, but if you develop your inner self to the point where you can see the good in others, they will respond well.

[heartattacked]

... Or unless they are physically deformed, mentally deformed, deranged, reclusive, going against the grain of culture and society... you live in some sort of rose-colored world where everyone is WILLING to accept people's differences and appearances... certainly in ages past that was not the case

[moimeme]

Well, this isn't ages past and people are becoming much more understanding that reclusive, sick or antisocial people are often troubled and deserve empathy rather than dislike.

 

There is no point in discussing with someone who deliberately misinterprets one, however.

 

you live in some sort of rose-colored world where everyone

 

I said nothing of the kind. In fact, I said precisely that NOT everyone might appreciate one, but there is always someone who will. It is, in fact, exactly the opposite of what you claim I've said. Now, somebody who deliberately makes himself unpleasant and then complains he's not appreciated is setting himself up for failure and has no right to complain. You can't be a complete misery, know you're a complete misery, and demand that the world accept your miserable self. You don't have to be exactly what everyone wants, but certain basic standards of civility are going to make life much easier for you.

[heartattacked]

Just like the term "we", I use the word "everyone" advisedly. Meaning, "most people". I never said you said EVERYONE, as opposed to ONE person. I used the word "everyone" because the impression I get from reading your posts is that you think the most people in today's world are so much more understanding and tolerant. But I disagree with you. We certainly don't see beheadings and stonings going on in the streets, and to that end the world is certainly more tolerant and understanding. But listen in on any given stranger's conversations with others, and discover how they really are so understanding and tolerant of people.

 

There is alot of political-correctness that has become the order of today's world, at least in this country, but social conventions hardly change people's internal views of other people. Not from what I have witnessed anyway. But again, it seems that we live in two different worlds.

[moimeme]

I get from reading your posts is that you think the most people in today's world are so much more understanding and tolerant

 

Wrong again. Did you read that link I gave you? Everyone has the capacity to be that way within them. And that is the source of my hope for humanity and my unwillingness to dismiss people the way you do.

 

'Never give up loving a person, and never give up hope on him, for even the prodigal son, who had fallen most low, could still be saved'

poorly quoted from unremembered source by M.

[heartattacked]

No, I did not read your link. I don't see how I am wrong again, you pretty much stated that you thought today's world is more understanding than in ages past, you wrote that only one post ago. How am I wrong? I didn't even know I was wrong the first time. Maybe my ideas about people are wrong, and no doubt they are prone to change as my life goes on.

 

When have I dismissed people? I have tried to express my own perceptions with people and the world. I have admitted to having a general disdain towards the world, but also mentioned that I find myself often caring about individuals. Perhaps "hate" people is the better word. But again, I really don't hate them. I hate much of what is in myself. And have already admitted that I take this hatred out on other people.

 

It's great that you have such hope and warmth for people, all I'm saying is that I don't see the rest of the world so readily subscribing to that warmth.

[moimeme]

I don't post links for my own fun. Read the dang blang thing.

[krbshappy71]

No, I did not read your link.

When have I dismissed people?

 

*snicker* you just did it with your last post. Moi tries to help by sending a wonderful link to make her point and you can't even take 5 minutes to read it to try and see her point. That is dismissing her input.

 

Heartbreaker I think you just want to fight to prove your point. I'm sorry that you don't see the world as loving and caring as I do. Its quite the loss for you as you are the only one suffering from it.

 

There was a lady at my work that "hated" everyone. She was convinced everyone hated her. It wasn't true, but she did bite everyone's head off, made cruel sarcastic comments to them, bullied the new people, and then whined that no one liked her. Well...um......its kind hard to like someone who was doing those things, you know?

 

I have admitted to having a general disdain towards the world, but also mentioned that I find myself often caring about individuals.

 

This is exactly how my coworker felt. She didn't understand why everyone "hated her". Despite her actions to others, she really did want them to like her. She was frustrated with the world in general and how terribly it sucked and why didn't everyone else think it sucked too? She finally started to change within, baby-steps, and during this process many people were suspicious of her...what was she up to? Why was she being so nice? It took some time but now she is generally liked and accepted and has become a much nicer person, what she gives out is positive and now what she receives is positive. It takes time but it is not Rose Colored Glasses, it is changing your inner thoughts so you see the positive in life and the world MORE than you see the negative. Its not that Moi doesn't see the negative, she chooses not to dwell on it. I'm sorry that you seem to do this, it must suck to live that way.

all I'm saying is that I don't see the rest of the world so readily subscribing to that warmth.

Asking us to agree with you that the whole world is like this is just irrational. The whole world is not one way or the other. Even if it was, that would not mean you had to subscribe to it. You are an individual. As Apple says, "Think Different"!!

[heartattacked]

OK... you are too much for me to handle. I give up! Look, I didn't read her link not out of dismissal but out of time constraints - I am at work while posting this. It wasn't a deliberate snub. Also, I am certainly reading each and every post.

 

I am trying to be fair here, but also stating that I disagree with alot of what is posted. You label me as being jaundiced and just wanting to fight for my side of things. You are doing the same. You're not fighting for your side?

 

I find it extremely naive and based upon wishful-thinking that people can just change their attitudes and thoughts. How? When we are born we are given - not by choice - a set of genes that at least somewhat determine our behavior and personality. Then we are brought up into a world that is again, not our choice, and witness bad and good things around us. Some people are given very bad lots in life. Yet you would submit to them that by simply changing their thoughts everything will begin to seem better? I say that you do not know what you ask! The way that we see things is much more determined by our mental health and emotional health. I find it extremely hard to believe that people who are depressed "choose" to be that way. And if it were so simple to change their mental state, perhaps they would have done so a long time ago. Perhaps their raw material is just not quite as healthy as yours? Yet you continue to believe that it's their own fault for seeing the world so darkly. Words can't express how much I disagree with you on this.

 

Also, just because I feel alot of negative energy towards the world does NOT mean that I walk around every day in a constant state of anger and spite. I get along fine with people and am quite able to laugh and joke with them. These thoughts are generally concealed, not put out there for everyone to witness.

 

I'm being honest with you that I disagree with many of your perceptions about how things work inside of people. Again, I could be wrong. But I have read everything in your posts, except for the linked post, and feel that much of what I am writing is being dismissed. I think I have tried to address the points you have raised in the posts, and I have tried to express how and where I differ.

 

But this doesn't seem fruitful, so I will disappear, thanks for your time.

[krbshappy71]

" I find it extremely hard to believe that people who are depressed "choose" to be that way. And if it were so simple to change their mental state, perhaps they would have done so a long time ago. Perhaps their raw material is just not quite as healthy as yours?"

 

 

I never said people who are depressed choose to be that way. There is clinical depression, and those suffering from it need medical help. If their raw material is not healthy, there are fixes for it.

 

Are you claiming this is your problem? If so, get help and fast. Depression is real and dangerous.

 

I did not see in any of your postings that you felt you had a medical condition. If you do not have a medical condition, then that leaves this as a personal issue that can be worked on and fixed. IF you choose to do so, which apparently you do not. You would rather just complain. Not much anyone can help you with if that is the case.

[moimeme]

I find it extremely naive and based upon wishful-thinking that people can just change their attitudes and thoughts. How?

 

 

Read stuff written by Dr. Albert Ellis. He explains exactly how - and why. It is lame to blame your genes. If your genes have predisposed you to a chemical imbalance that makes you depressed (a common reason for deciding the world is bleak), that can be treated. However, absent any sort of medical condition, your thoughts are your own and you are certainly able to change them. But you have to want to.

[Bronzepen]

heartattacked you should read "Who moved my cheese". It's all about change and how one can go about changing.

 

People can change their thoughts and attitude. Not overnight but in time.

 

It's easy to accept that this is how people are is but it's not, people are always changing. Whether it's for better or for worse is subject to interpretation but the fact is people do change, be it subtle or major.

[heartattacked]

It's lame to blame your genes? Why is it lame? Has science suddenly overturned the notion that much of who we are and how we interact with the world is significantly caused by our genes and upbringing? Is Dr. Ellis the final authority on this subject and speaks for the mainstream scientific and medical community? Many people who you would consider clinically depressed aren't even aware of it - so they will apparently continue to suffer needlessly since help is so readily available.

 

You seriously need to keep in mind that depression is not so easily remedied - drugs can only do so much. Many drugs do not work for some people, some work but some may even complicate matters with their side effects. People within my own family suffered from mental defects, and though drugs are no doubt getting better, drugs 20 years ago often only made these family members worse.

 

I do not CHOOSE to complain. Again, it is how I feel. The feelings are there already. They do not come to me because I arbitrarily decide to have negative feelings. Also, I am not complaining because I desire some sort of twisted attention or pity from you on this board- people who I do not even know!

 

My lasting impression from everyone that has posted in this thread is that all of you are inclined to think that solutions to depression and negativity are available to anyone. You seem to enjoy labeling me as a complainer and almost seem in disbelief that someone could actually disagree with your seemingly well-grounded solutions. Isn't there much debate on the causes of depression and pessimism? Isn't there much that science still does not know? At the very least, there is controversy as to why people behave in certain ways. Yet somehow, you board members act as if all of this can be cured without much difficulty? I am not convinced, sorry.

 

I will admit that I have much to learn on psychology and medicine, as I have not really ever studied them. So, I'm sure that my ignorance only shines through more and more. But I still say that much of what you write as "facts" are still only opinions and can be easily debated with someone who knows much more about the subject than I.

[ladyangel]

Originally posted by Tony T

moimeme writes: "You know old Albert Ellis? In one of his books he suggests people go out in public and do odd things (not arrestable things or frightening things, just kind of unusual things) to draw attention to themselves."

 

I've never really had to do that. Odd behavior is pretty much my standard.

Ah hah....I guess we all have a little "Pee Wee" in us, huh.