What do BSs want WSs to feel?

[silktricks]

So what you're saying is...because someone doent tell you...you dont know what you are doing? If I am screwing up...I dont need to be told this... I can see for myself.

Not exactly. What I'm saying is that I may do something that in my family is not only accepted, but expected. Whereas if someone in my husband's family does that everyone would be outraged and angry. How could I see that myself? As far as I'm concerned, I haven't done anything wrong.

 

Also...you assume the other party didnt say anything. So what of those that did and ended up getting shooed away?

And I'm certain that happens.

 

 

Maybe your situation was like what you said bu generally speaking.... I dont buy it all

 

 

 

Well this may explain many of the comments I have heard on LS that leave me somewhat perplexed....

 

I however do not buy into that beleif

 

That's fine. I'd also like to be clear that I'm not saying that every situation is like this - but it absolutely does happen.

[Owl]

I think that Silktrick's point (and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, Silk) is that if you're unhappy in a relationship, it's YOUR responsibility to communicate that unhappiness and reasons for it so that your spouse has a reasonable opportunity to be aware of that unhappiness and choose to do what they can to alleviate that unhappiness...or choose not to, as well.

 

Setting an expectation that your spouse should "just know" that you're unhappy, and why, and to what measure, and should therefore make changes without any deliberate interaction on your part is flat out unrealistic and foolish.

 

You owe it to your spouse to tell them what you're unhappy about, why you're unhappy, what they can do to help you fix it, and what the likely consequences are if they choose to do nothing about it.

 

"Assuming" that they know, understand, and are choosing not to take action is pretty much a garuantee of failure. And choosing to follow that route puts a LOT of the responsibility for your unhappiness back on yourself, and not on your spouse.

[silktricks]

Thank-you OWL. You said it perfectly.

[seren]

Does this go for the serial cheater who screws around with anybody they work with as well,im nit perfect and have my own fauts but really idk?

 

I can only speak about my own experience and with my own opinion HA, for me, I couldn't go through multiple D Days, once was more than enough. I don't think I have it in me to go through the whole process of reconciliation only to have it thrown in my face by my H having another A. I suppose were that to happen I would have to face up to the fact that we hadn't really reconciled (hate that term) and that neither of us had learnt about our relationship nor made any changes to how we communicated etc.

 

BUT, I am also aware that no one really knows how they will deal with a D Day until they have lived it, I certainly know my view changed drastically as I was one of the 'it will never happen to me brigade' and after being together for 23 years I really thought I knew my H. TBH, if the situation my H was in at the time of the A had been different I don't know that I would have stayed, as it was I could see for myself how changed he was from who I always knew him to be. This is in no way an excuse it just is what it is.

 

I would add that the whole BS lack of self esteem thing is just so far removed from my experience, it has sort of become a tired cliche for the reasons some of us stay. For me, the reason was simply that I never stopped loving my H, no lack of self esteem on my part, no need for financial support or otherwise. I knew what I wanted and needed from my H and he me, and we did that and continue to do so. The A is never excused, but it happened and we dealt with it.

[michelangelo]

Wheelwright, many of the WS experience loss of their own pleasure at the break up of their affair. They become depressed and morbid. They do not see their marriage as a lifelong commitment of two people to one ideal.

 

While I have not personally able to experience an event of loss, this is my response to betrayal: I would wish that my spouse should feel the same measure of love as I had for them, then see it lost...

 

This experience will raise the level of betrayal in their eyes like a hand touching a hot stove.

 

I want their empathy.

 

 

EXACTLY stated just right.

[Snowflower]

Wheelwright, I am curious about your purpose for this thread. I think you are your BH are divorcing/divorced now? If your marriage is over, why are you asking these questions of betrayes spouses? Is it to help you understand your husband and what he went through? Or is it curiosity about xMM and his BS and their marriage?

[wheelwright]

I'm a little confused about your question, to be honest. What I wanted my husband to feel and what I wanted him to say were not necessarily the same.

 

I wanted him to feel my pain so that he could come to an understanding of what he had done to us. I wanted him to feel that I could in time forgive him, but know that it would take a lot of time and a lot of energy from him. I wanted him to feel that we were worth the work that was in front of us to recover our marriage and ourselves. I wanted him to feel sorrow at losing sight of us.

 

I wanted him to say that he regretted his actions. I wanted him to tell me how sorry he was that he had chosen to deceive me. I wanted to hear that he loved me. But words mean nothing if they aren't demonstrated by constant and consistent actions. If his actions didn't show me every day how sorry he was for what he did and how thankful he was that I was willing to work on rebuilding our marriage, no words would have meant anything.

 

And eventually, after all of our hard work, I wanted him to feel forgiven. I wanted him to feel safe in our love, just as I knew he wanted me to feel.

 

I can understand this response.

 

The reason I phrased the Q as I did was because what people say at DDay is the first window into how they feel. And I agree they may not be the same - often the case in less emotive circumstances too.

 

I am asking the Q partly because my feelings and words created a block to reconciliation with my H.

 

And partly because for xMOM his feelings and/or words did not (with his W I mean).

 

But I can see that I was in no way like you describe your H. I am left wondering if had I been able to demonstrate these feelings/words/actions, would forgiveness have happened.

 

Seren said above that her H did not want her to hate him. I had this feeling too. And I do seem to have resolved this issue, as we are getting on well now we are leading separate lives.

[Owl]

What did you feel and say that you feel hampered reconciliation?

 

What did xMOM feel/say that facilitated his?

[wheelwright]

Wheelwright, many of the WS experience loss of their own pleasure at the break up of their affair. They become depressed and morbid. They do not see their marriage as a lifelong commitment of two people to one ideal.

 

While I have not personally able to experience an event of loss, this is my response to betrayal: I would wish that my spouse should feel the same measure of love as I had for them, then see it lost...

 

This experience will raise the level of betrayal in their eyes like a hand touching a hot stove.

 

I want their empathy.

 

I suffered betrayals of a deep kind in my M before I embarked on infidelity as a dubious way to heal my own heart. I never wished what you say you would have wished, but in my actions you could say this is what I did engender.

 

There's a lot packed into this short post, and the most interesting bit is the bit about feeling the same measure of love. According to many of the responses, this seems indeed to happen post DDay.

[wheelwright]

I dunno frozen...maybe in few instances this is true but I have a hard time buying this as a generality. If I were to bet I would bet that they know but dont care because IMHO:

 

A) It suits them and..

B) There are no repercussions...that they are aware of

 

Thats people...they push and push and push until someone pushes back.

 

Sounds very familiar from another line of argument.

 

Neglect in M is deemed understandable, while infidelity is not. But to cherish is also a M vow.

[wheelwright]

This is EXACTLY how I felt.

 

Although I went about the aftermath completely wrong. My H felt love lost from my side no doubt about that (during my revenge affair). But it came at my expense also. A hard lesson learned. I hate A's now I am sickened by them. Wrecks so much havoc on lives. So unnecessary.

 

How are you doing LD?

 

Can I ask if you H is similarly sickened?

[wheelwright]

Oh boy do I ever disagree with you.

 

If someone is hurt and refuses to tell their partner they are hurt - or explain what hurt them, there doesn't seem to be anywhere to go. You can get a LOT of repercussions, but if you don't understand (because the other person won't explain) what the issue is, then just exactly what is it that you are supposed to do?

 

I speak from experience here... it didn't "suit" me to be someone who was hurting another person - but I was. It didn't "suit" my husband to be someone who was hurting another person - but he was. I went to IC, he went to IC. We didn't go to MC - which was what we needed. We needed someone to "translate" for us. Our birth families were completely different. Normal interaction in my family was considered rude and insensitive in his. Normal interaction in his family was considered mean and attacking in mine. He thought I should be able to figure out what he was mad about - I couldn't as I had no point of comparison. He's not a mean person, unless he feels like he's being mistreated. I'm not a mean person, but I get very defensive when I feel attacked. My anger and hurt led me to become introverted and cold. His anger and hurt led him to have an affair.

 

I don't know if this is a "generality" but it wouldn't surprise me, as most people seem to assume that everyone else is just like them - and most of us aren't

 

Re bolded

If everyone could learn these lessons, we would all get along a whole lot better.

 

However, the bit about keeping hurt to yourself only works if you haven't tried being open about your problems. Some people are just unresponsive, won't listen, and are entrenched in the status quo even if that makes one or both MPs unhappy.

 

Infidelity or divorce are the only way forward in some cases.

[Severely Unamused]

Neglect in M is deemed understandable.

 

I would have to disagree (for whatever value my opinion is worth).

 

No, I don't believe that infidelity is "understandable", constructive, or a particularly good idea. But that goes the same with neglect. I don't know anyone that believes that neglecting their partner (whether through infidelity or whatever else) will lead to anywhere good. I think that when it comes to that point, one way or another, apathy has already set in.

 

One thing that I will say, is that there seems to be a misconception that one of the major causes for some WS to step out, is because their BS neglects them. As a I recall from a recently presented study, just over 50% of EAs occur in relatively happy relationships. So the question I will raise, is that if a BS can neglect their partner for no real rational reason other than d*ckishness, surely there must be an equal amount of WSs that sleep around for the same reasons (ie. none), correct?

 

Ultimately, each relationship should be observed on a case by case basis. Presenting each case on LS, is a good way to let people's personal biases shine.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Severely Unamused

[David Cain]

Re bolded

If everyone could learn these lessons, we would all get along a whole lot better.

 

However, the bit about keeping hurt to yourself only works if you haven't tried being open about your problems. Some people are just unresponsive, won't listen, and are entrenched in the status quo even if that makes one or both MPs unhappy.

 

Infidelity or divorce are the only way forward in some cases.

 

Working out the marital issues or divorce are the only ways to move forward and it doesn't include cheating.

[wheelwright]

Wheelwright, I am curious about your purpose for this thread. I think you are your BH are divorcing/divorced now? If your marriage is over, why are you asking these questions of betrayes spouses? Is it to help you understand your husband and what he went through? Or is it curiosity about xMM and his BS and their marriage?

 

 

SF, it's both of course.

 

I am still interested in As, causes, repurcussions, resolutions. I appreciate the insight I gain here.

 

I have said here I feel a new sense of peace now H and I have separated. This remains true and grows stronger all the time.

 

I think of xMOM often, he is still in my heart, but not in a negative way. I like to hear how WSs have recommitted, and I like to imagine him happy in this way. I also like to imagine he has loving feelings towards me still, but in truth my peace lies in feeling no attachment to either of these 'imaginings', nor any contradiction in them.

 

This thread also helps me work out why H and I were not destined for reconciliation. I loved another, it didn't die or go away after DDay. I don't like lying to people, and I told my H the truth, except for periods when he told me he'd rather not hear it.

 

But I managed to communicate to him how I did care, I felt compassion for his pain (to a debilitating degree) and we salvaged a friendship.

 

I don't know if that makes clear my interest, or if to you and/or others I still sound like a devastated WS/OW?

 

Sometimes I post a new thread because I have read other posts that make me think, and there were a few in this case too.

 

Or I get bored with the existing threads! (I'm sure people get bored with mine).

 

Hope you are doing well.

[ladydesigner]

How are you doing LD?

 

Can I ask if you H is similarly sickened?

 

I am doing really good. I still struggle with thoughts of my H's A's but believe that he wants the M as much as I do now. I'm in IC permanently right now dealing with my H's A's, my past A, and my childhood trauma and FOO (Family of Origin) issues.

 

Good question WW! I do not believe my H is sickened by his A's, no. I think that is partly why I felt entitled (I know I'm not entitled, but at the time it felt that way) to develop an emotional relationship with my XOM. It did end up becoming a PA. I feel sickened that I let myself get attached to someone other than my H and someone who ended up being someone who wasn't who I thought they were (similar to your MM). I do not think I handled my D-Day the way I should have. I acted out instead, like a child throwing a tantrum and getting revenge ugh

[wheelwright]

Working out the marital issues or divorce are the only ways to move forward and it doesn't include cheating.

 

Clearly it does for many people. In fact, there are a whole host of people here on LS who have responded to the short sharp shock with good results.

 

Perhaps it is one of the ways to make ourselves and others wake up? It's like saying - hey let's really think about what we're doing here? LOOK. I'M HERE too. Are we worth anything?

 

Cheating is just part of the way. For some. If it's not the way for you, fine. For others you can see from the evidence it is.

 

I am not advocating it, but then I don't advocate that much. I'm not a preacher.

[David Cain]

Cheating is just part of the way. For some. If it's not the way for you, fine.

 

And look where that cheating is taking you currently.

 

For others you can see from the evidence it is.

 

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the above.

 

Evidence of what? The only evidence about cheating is that it leads to long-term consequences

 

I am not advocating it, but then I don't advocate that much. I'm not a preacher.

 

.....

[wheelwright]

And look where that cheating is taking you currently.

 

 

 

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the above.

 

Evidence of what? The only evidence about cheating is that it leads to long-term consequences

 

 

 

.....

 

Where is it taking me?

 

Yes cheating leads to consequences. It leads to change. And?

[wheelwright]

I am doing really good. I still struggle with thoughts of my H's A's but believe that he wants the M as much as I do now. I'm in IC permanently right now dealing with my H's A's, my past A, and my childhood trauma and FOO (Family of Origin) issues.

 

Good question WW! I do not believe my H is sickened by his A's, no. I think that is partly why I felt entitled (I know I'm not entitled, but at the time it felt that way) to develop an emotional relationship with my XOM. It did end up becoming a PA. I feel sickened that I let myself get attached to someone other than my H and someone who ended up being someone who wasn't who I thought they were (similar to your MM). I do not think I handled my D-Day the way I should have. I acted out instead, like a child throwing a tantrum and getting revenge ugh

 

I wonder if it would be possible to see your behaviour more positively. Even if you don't like it now, right then it made sense. I hope you forgive yourself.

 

I wish you luck with the IC. I think that it can help poeple, but only so far.

 

Really, you seem like a great person, your past makes sense to me what I know of it. I am in no way sickened. Just a bit sad you weren't treated better. x

[Spark1111]

Sounds very familiar from another line of argument.

 

Neglect in M is deemed understandable, while infidelity is not. But to cherish is also a M vow.

 

I disagree WW.

 

Women today in the US are filing almost 75% of all divorces. In an exit poll, the number one reason they cited was neglect.

 

Not infidelity, drug addiction, abuse, but neglect! While infidelity, drug addiction, gambling and abuse may have been the final catalyst to filing, that was not the reason cited. Neglect was.

 

So, if a woman feels an emotional bond with a man, even an abusive man, she will not file for divorce.

 

But if she feels emotionally neglected, she will divorce even a "decent" guy.

[wheelwright]

I disagree WW.

 

Women today in the US are filing almost 75% of all divorces. In an exit poll, the number one reason they cited was neglect.

 

Not infidelity, drug addiction, abuse, but neglect! While infidelity, drug addiction, gambling and abuse may have been the final catalyst to filing, that was not the reason cited. Neglect was.

 

So, if a woman feels an emotional bond with a man, even an abusive man, she will not file for divorce.

 

But if she feels emotionally neglected, she will divorce even a "decent" guy.

 

Spark, I have resonded to you often hearing the truth you speak.

 

Right here though, you forget that many people who file for divorce do not want to bring infidelity into the court room. And choose neglect as the cited reason so as to make the process less painful.

 

When I said I thought neglect was deemed understandable, I meant that it doesn't seem to kick up the same kind of fuss as infielity.

 

And certainly, here on LS that's my impression. I will go away (haha!) and do an informal survey on this subject. Feedback later!

[David Cain]

Where is it taking me?

 

Yes cheating leads to consequences. It leads to change. And?

 

My point exactly.

[wheelwright]

My point exactly.

 

No, you failed to make your point. Please, illuminate.

[David Cain]

I disagree WW.

 

Women today in the US are filing almost 75% of all divorces. In an exit poll, the number one reason they cited was neglect.

 

Not infidelity, drug addiction, abuse, but neglect! While infidelity, drug addiction, gambling and abuse may have been the final catalyst to filing, that was not the reason cited. Neglect was.

 

So, if a woman feels an emotional bond with a man, even an abusive man, she will not file for divorce.

 

But if she feels emotionally neglected, she will divorce even a "decent" guy.

 

Where do you get your "facts" from? The number one reason is infidelity, but they do not cite it, thinking it will cover their behind.

 

And who cares if a woman feels emotionally neglected? She was probably starting half the problems. You worded that as if a man cannot do the same if he feels neglected. She doesn't hold the all the "power" in a relationship.