When your SO makes subtle comments that you need to lose weight

[Mme. Chaucer]

Instead of exchanging dieting and exercise tips, these insecure fatties are bickering over which one of them is actually fatter.

 

Well, here I SHALL leap to defend the ladies. Neither one of them is a "fattie" and in fact, they are both extremely good looking and the types of women that lots and lots of men chase after.

 

What do you look like?

[zengirl]

Oh, please. There is not bullying and especially not abuse in this thread, or towards ES in general.

 

Saying that there is belittles the severity of bullying and especially of abuse.

 

You honestly think that SG saying that ES's knee looked bulgey in a photo is abusive??

 

I don't think it was a nice thing to say, but these two are frequently throwing barbs back and forth. And ES def got her back with the "dreaded apple" comment. They are evenly matched opponents - well educated, great looking buxom blonde professional women close in age - though SG comes off as aggressive and kind of like a pit bull once she gets her teeth into something () while ES appears to work it so that she can always appear to be in a victim role.

 

I would potentially agree with this. I'm not saying it was a nice, tactful, lovely thing to say; it's just. . . the whole discussion is absurd, and the posters reading were left no choice but to either be controlled by the inherent trap of the post ("disagree with me, and tell me I'm awesome, so I can be validated") or be untactful. I think SG said her untactful bits after stating, "assuming you're not just looking for validation," --- and if you're not looking for constructive criticism with what ES said, you're looking for validation; there really is not other option. Which was actually kinder of her than I'll give ES on this one. She was looking for validation; end-stop. No way she wasn't.

 

Personally, I refuse to offer anyone validation when they try to trap me into giving it to them. Unless the person is in elementary school, and then I'll be lenient. Or a teenager, and then I'll explain my position nicely the FIRST time it happens.

 

I'm puzzled about everyone's apparently varied definition of "bullying". You can report, tune out, block, ignore, any instance of abuse on this forum which is an elective, pseudonymous internet service. It doesn't even have to be abuse -- you can end the transmission of any post for any reason, even no reason at all.

 

I almost find it insulting to those people who were made to feel powerless from fear for their public reputation, well-being, or lives, because they were true victims of a coercive, imposed authority.

 

Yes, this is a big part of my main point FTR.

 

Okay my opinion:

 

Even if SG's comments may have had utility, her original comments about ES's pics came across as blunt, unnecessary, and slightly off topic. There would have been many many better ways to phrase her comments even if ES had specifically asked for constructive feedback on her photos. It's really obvious SG's intention just wasn't to "help" and was an attempt at a dig that she (and other posters) have been trying to rationalize away for pages and pages.

 

Well, I actually think it was neither helpful, nor a dig. I think it was a rebellion to the trap-for-validation. But that's just my view.

 

No? Wow. Are we reading the same threads?

 

I see lots of attempts at button-pushing on all sides.

 

In fact ES's threads tend to be one big button.

 

I don't think SG tries to push ES's buttons. Instead, I'd say perhaps that ES's topics often push SG's unconscious buttons (not that ES tries to---but just SG gets all revved up) and she just runs straight into it; I really don't think it's her intention to hurt ES or push any particular buttons. But mileage may vary on this, certainly.

 

I see plenty of buttons being potentially pushed in ES threads, too, but I think most of it is unintentional.

 

And with that, I'll take my leave as well.

[Nexus One]

I'll just give some lighthearted reactions to some things I've read in this thread. No harm intended. Don't take this seriously.

 

1. B*tches, stop b*tching, start running.

 

2. To all the women who've commented they look better than the other or slimmer than the other. B*tch no further, as it is I...a man...who shall be the judge of that.

 

3. ES and SG, you two are like sisters. You both seem to have similar body types. ( sue me )

[Feelsgoodman]

What do you look like?

Imagine a statute of a roman god...except with a MUCH bigger you know what. That's me

 

Anyway, what are you doing here? Isn't there a man-hating thread that you could troll...I mean "contribute" to with your feminist words of wisdom? Or is sticking up for the resident LS fatties your idea of "supporting the sisterhood"?

[Mme. Chaucer]

Imagine a statute of a roman god...except with a MUCH bigger you know what. That's me

 

Anyway, what are you doing here? Isn't there a man-hating thread that you could troll...I mean "contribute" to with your feminist words of wisdom? Or is sticking up for the resident LS fatties your idea of "supporting the sisterhood"?

 

I love men, even though I'm a feminist. Who woulda thunk it?

 

You're just enjoying calling them fatties because you know in real life that neither one of them would go out with you ... no matter what. Not because they're man haters, either.

 

Carry on.

[Feelsgoodman]

I love men, even though I'm a feminist. Who woulda thunk it?

 

You're just enjoying calling them fatties because you know in real life that neither one of them would go out with you ... no matter what. Not because they're man haters, either.

 

Carry on.

You are right. Neither of them would go out with me in real life, as "going out" implies dragging your fat @ss away from the computer, TV and bowl of potato chips.

 

As for calling them fatties, they need to help from me. They are the ones arguing which one of them is more overweight.

 

Carry on.

[40 Fonzarelli]

I think that was the best way to suggest it. Some people are just more sensitive than others. Even a suggestion to go play some sports or buying a wii fit will be taken the wrong way.

[IrishCarBomb]

This thread is a perfect illustration of why LS is not the place to go to for relationship advice.

 

Perhaps you are right. As I read your post, it makes me wonder this exact question...

 

Instead of exchanging dieting and exercise tips, these insecure fatties are bickering over which one of them is actually fatter.

 

Neither is actually a "fatty". I would think you'd know a fatty considering your "American" perspective posted earlier, but then again you've also proven a lack of factual basis for anything.

 

That's kind of like Angola and Sierra Leone arguing which country has a lower standard of living. Even if you win the argument, you are still a loser in the grand scheme of things.

 

Once again, an example that is just factually divorced from reality. You post as if it's a close question between Sierra Leone and Angola. Angola clearly has a higher standard of living. Even your made up analogies are wrong.

 

But, as I said earlier, don't let "facts" get in the way of your emotional ranting.

[EasyHeart]

They are evenly matched opponents - well educated, great looking buxom blonde professional women close in age - though SG comes off as aggressive and kind of like a pit bull once she gets her teeth into something () while ES appears to work it so that she can always appear to be in a victim role. Maybe they should square off mano-a-mano in a mud wrestling venue. People would pay good money.

This is the best advice I have ever read on LoveShack.

 

I suggest pay-per-view.

[Els]

Well, here I SHALL leap to defend the ladies. Neither one of them is a "fattie" and in fact, they are both extremely good looking and the types of women that lots and lots of men chase after.

 

What do you look like?

 

Well, he did answer you: A statue of a Roman God, except with a much bigger tummy.

[Kamille]

I'm hesitant about entering this thread, but I eventually had to look up definitions of bullying. They haven't clarified anything for me, but they do raise interesting points.

 

Let me just say that while I feel this thread is ripe with some of the most persistent conflicts on LS, it is unclear to me that we can easily decide who is being bullied and who isn't. I'm posting this more as a way to open the reflection in different ways. All protagonists here have demonstrated they're as capable as others to empathize or antagonize.

 

Here is the Ontario board of education's definition of bullying. The board is considered a front-runner in educational policies world-wide, especially when it comes to human right issues. As such, I often choose it as a reference point when thinking about issues.

 

The definition of Bullying:

 

Bullying is typically a form of repeated, persistent, and aggressive behaviour directed at an individual or individuals that is intended to cause (or should be known to cause) fear and distress and/or harm to another person’s body, feelings, self-esteem, or reputation. Bullying occurs in a context where there is a real or perceived power imbalance.

 

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/extra/eng/ppm/144.pdf

 

Since bullying is about repetition, it goes without saying that people cannot refer to this thread alone when trying to assess whether bullying is occurring. As such claims that bullying hasn't occurred in this thread could be dismissed.

 

The differential between intention / "should-know of harm being caused" is another relevant point. I don't think most posters intend to cause harm, but one could argue that by now, they should have developed an awareness of how long-term posters perceive their responses.

 

But the most interesting point is the perception of power imbalance. I agree with Welike that no one in reality has power over anyone else here on LS. I see this last clause as perhaps the productive space for better understanding. The central issue no longer is who is bullying who, but what do we think is at stake here? Egoes? Inclusion within the community? The right to peaceful participation on this forum?

[tigressA]

I find it incredibly amusing that ES's threads never, ever fail to reduce so many posters to bickering children. So many of us get sucked in every single time regardless (or perhaps because) of how frustrating she can be and start attacking each other. Gotta give props to her for that. It's quite the feat and she makes it seem so easy.

[Star Gazer]

The definition of Bullying:

 

Bullying is typically a form of repeated, persistent, and aggressive behaviour directed at an individual or individuals that is

intended to cause

(or should be known to cause)

fear and distress and/or harm

to another person’s body, feelings, self-esteem, or reputation. Bullying occurs in a context where there is a real or perceived power imbalance.

 

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/extra/eng/ppm/144.pdf

 

As such claims that bullying hasn't occurred in this thread could be dismissed.

 

I absolutely disagree with you.

 

But the most interesting point is the perception of power imbalance. I agree with Welike that no one in reality has power over anyone else here on LS. I see this last clause as perhaps the productive space for better understanding. The central issue no longer is who is bullying who, but what do we think is at stake here? Egoes? Inclusion within the community? The right to peaceful participation on this forum?

 

I agree with this. No one has power over ES on LS. First, I have yet to see anyone even attempt to exert power over her. (What I have seen is TBF attempt to exert power over others by basically telling them how they are allowed to post.)

 

Second, ES is by no means a victim. She is CLEARLY able to "defend" herself and "fight back," as demonstrated not only in this thread, but most of her others (assuming she doesn't start an OP, respond once or twice, and then never come back, and just let everyone fight amongst themselves - as she has "confessed" to doing), as well as many of my own where she comes in and makes a vindictive drive-by snipe and then leaves. You probably don't see/recognize most of her own attacks and snipes, because she does them in my (and others') less-popular threads, or, they get reported and deleted. But if you pay attention, you'll see it.

 

Quite frankly, I believe she's a brilliant mastermind. Only her threads come out "this way." It almost seems engineered. Ever notice that? No one else on LS garners such a strong response, one way or another. If there's power on LS, she's really the one who has it.

[Star Gazer]

I find it incredibly amusing that ES's threads never, ever fail to reduce so many posters to bickering children. So many of us get sucked in every single time regardless (or perhaps because) of how frustrating she can be and start attacking each other. Gotta give props to her for that. It's quite the feat and she makes it seem so easy.

 

Important point there: We get sucked in and behave poorly because of how frustrating she can be. Ab-so-lutely. NOT because we are evil, malicious, ill-intended. Other than the brand new posters who are either old posters in disguise (she likes to accuse them of being MC for some reason) or just flat out trolls, I am fairly confident that the people in ES's threads who respond in any "negative" manner are simply frustrated in their efforts to help her finally have an ah-ha moment... The level of frustration is also obviously linked to the level of tact. One may say it's on the frustrated person that they're frustrated, and I totally agree. However, I think it's worth repeating that a frustrated person cares. A person who cares isn't intentionally mean.

 

As for internal bickering, it's ridiculous. I cannot count how many times I have asked, "Do you have any comments or advice for the OP, or are you just here to tell me and others how to post and name call?" Even with that reminder, the focus gets further and further from the OP's "problem."

 

What I would loooooooove to see happen, is posters focus on the OP, in every thread not just ES's, and give advice/comments/suggestions to the OP, rather than directing any negative feedback they get towards those who are trying to do just that.

[Nexus One]

I don't mean to belittle even the smallest of suffering or grief, but things like bullying and abuse are very strong terms to accuse someone of in my opinion. IMO one should not throw around such accusations lightly.

[tigressA]

As for internal bickering, it's ridiculous. I cannot count how many times I have asked, "Do you have any comments or advice for the OP, or are you just here to tell me and others how to post and name call?" Even with that reminder, the focus gets further and further from the OP's "problem."

 

What I would loooooooove to see happen, is posters focus on the OP, in every thread not just ES's, and give advice/comments/suggestions to the OP, rather than directing any negative feedback they get towards those who are trying to do just that.

 

The best and easiest way to do that is to ignore the off-topic posters and stop engaging them altogether. Solely concentrate on contributing to the issue at hand and don't feel the need to defend yourself or try to control other posters staying on-topic. Control yourself. It's difficult; I've struggled with that before in my own threads when people go off-topic and bring up past issues that are not relevant to what I'm trying to discuss right then. Even asking what you do, you yourself are going off-topic and contributing to the problem. Just ignore the people you feel aren't helping. If you don't, they will not go away.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Back to the original topic:

 

She asked this question: "Was it really his place to make those comments?"

 

I don't think it's an issue of whether it's his "place" or not. I think that if a loved one says something that bothers or hurts you, is is definitely your place and your responsibility to yourself and your relationship to speak up about it and make your boundaries about it be known. Because, in relationships, people get vulnerable and feelings will get hurt sometimes. If a real discussion about the subject needs to happen, then it can be brought out and dealt with right then and there.

 

Things get a lot more complicated, though, when the person who is bothered by such comments has habitually made his / her weight, size, figure, whatever a topic up for discussion and commentary. In that case, how can the loved one be faulted for speaking about it?

 

Our OP says she did not do this, though in a prior thread she said she did do this. On this thread, she definitely did it by posting pictures. That was an invitation for commentary.

 

So, as usual, we have a dynamic with more than one player. When A does whatever, B reacts / responds with whatever. This does not excuse B for doing or saying something "wrong," but people who are walking on eggshells filled with terror are bound to do and say lots of wrong stuff.

 

So, if the OP was honest about her stated wish to look back on this "relationship" and learn from it - the only things I can see to take from the weight comments are:

 

1) Don't bring up your insecurities all the time in order to have them ameliorated by your loved one; I think it usually backfires.

 

2) If your mate says or does something that really hurts your feelings or that you think is otherwise unacceptable to you, it's up to YOU to communicate about this with THEM.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Mme. Chaucer

[Kamille]

I absolutely disagree with you.

 

You disagree with me and the definition of the board of education. Bullying is characterized by it's repetitive nature. Punctual interactions in and of themselves are not a sufficient basis to establish whether there is or isn't bullying occurring.

 

I myself am still debating whether bullying is occurring.

 

 

I agree with this. No one has power over ES on LS.

 

Or no one has power over you, or power over TBF or power over me. A lot of allegations have been made on this thread: that you bully ES, that ES takes digs at you, that TBF is a bully, etc. My reflection on bullying are not limited to the "ES is being bullied" case. Some posters perceive her to be bullied. Some posters perceive you to be bullied. Personally, I have no idea, and I don't think pointing fingers is productive here. We've been doing it for years, and it has only exacerbated the conflict. When I posted in this thread, my aim was to see if change can occur and better understanding is possible. Is there anything in the definition provided by the Ministry that could help us figure out how to better interact on this board?

 

 

For me, a productive question here isn't who has power over whom, but is there a perception of unequal power here? Who feels that way? If so, why? On what grounds, with what consequences for whom? If no one feels that the power relations are unequal, than the case that bullying is occurring can be dismissed. If someone feels the power relations are unequal: how can they express this without experiencing a backlash? How can the relationships be mended so everyone feels safe? Is there something the person who feels disadvantaged can do to redress the perceived unequal power relations?

 

 

 

Second, ES is by no means a victim. She is CLEARLY able to "defend" herself and "fight back," as demonstrated not only in this thread, but most of her others

Exactly. To me there is no clearcut way to think about this.

 

(assuming she doesn't start an OP, respond once or twice, and then never come back, and just let everyone fight amongst themselves - as she has "confessed" to doing),

 

 

This is one potential interpretation of what she is doing. When she did confess to abandoning threads, she actually said it was because she couldn't face the criticism she was sure to encounter. I believe her. I don't believe her intention is to cause fights. That's my interpretation.

 

 

as well as many of my own where she comes in and makes a vindictive drive-by snipe and then leaves. You probably don't see/recognize most of her own attacks and snipes, because she does them in my (and others') less-popular threads, or, they get reported and deleted. But if you pay attention, you'll see it.

 

Yes SG, I do recognize her snipes. I have said in my other post here that all the posters have demonstrated their capacity to empathize and antagonize. That includes ES (and me;)). This multi-poster conflict has been on-going on LS for years.

 

 

Quite frankly, I believe she's a brilliant mastermind. Only her threads come out "this way." It almost seems engineered. Ever notice that? No one else on LS garners such a strong response, one way or another. If there's power on LS, she's really the one who has it.

 

This is an interpretation. As with many interpretation, it is up for debate. IMO, one of the main reason her threads garner such a response is because the same posters (myself included) always come out of the woodworks to continue arguments that started years ago. As such, we're all responsible for the attention her threads get.

[Art_Critic]

IMO one should not throw around such accusations lightly.

 

IMO they are not being thrown around lightly.

[zengirl]

First, I have yet to see anyone even attempt to exert power over her. (What I have seen is TBF attempt to exert power over others by basically telling them how they are allowed to post.)

.

 

Okay, so I was done, but now I'm not.

 

I agree with this. I don't think TBF actually HAS any power, so she's not really a bully either --- but I think her actions come the closest to it, as she would like to steer the conversation towards what she thinks is appropriate and control other posters. Supposedly for ES's "well being" but (a) Nobody here knows what's best for ES and (b) the discussions here are, to me, about a lot more than individual posters' well being.

 

I think Kamille raises some interesting points, and ultimately, I guess it depends on your individual goals for LS, but beyond following the TOS, I don't believe any poster has the right to decide what the best dynamic or goal is, and I get annoyed with posters who continually try to do so and then try to get others on their side and say, "Look how many people agree with me that you shouldn't say that." This is the closest thing to bullying I think can be found on LS, since none of the posters have real power.

 

That's why I responded to her as I did. Not because I thought SG or anyone else needed my defense (they're all adults who can defend themselves) but because I find the very behavior TBF brings into these threads offensive to me, for the atmosphere it creates. Perhaps she feels the same about what SG said, but that's not how she phrased things; instead, she came out ascribing motivations, stooping lower than the original comments had been, and attempting to shame or coerce posters into not behaving in a manner she dislikes (my view of it). If she'd simply said, "I dislike these comments" (and why) that'd be one thing, but the way she goes about it seems like bullying to me, albeit, as I said, ineffective bullying.

 

Back to the original topic:

 

She asked this question: "Was it really his place to make those comments?"

 

I don't think it's an issue of whether it's his "place" or not. I think that if a loved one says something that bothers or hurts you, is is definitely your place and your responsibility to yourself and your relationship to speak up about it and make your boundaries about it be known. Because, in relationships, people get vulnerable and feelings will get hurt sometimes. If a real discussion about the subject needs to happen, then it can be brought out and dealt with right then and there.

 

Things get a lot more complicated, though, when the person who is bothered by such comments has habitually made his / her weight, size, figure, whatever a topic up for discussion and commentary. In that case, how can the loved one be faulted for speaking about it?

 

Our OP says she did not do this, though in a prior thread she said she did do this. On this thread, she definitely did it by posting pictures. That was an invitation for commentary.

 

So, as usual, we have a dynamic with more than one player. When A does whatever, B reacts / responds with whatever. This does not excuse B for doing or saying something "wrong," but people who are walking on eggshells filled with terror are bound to do and say lots of wrong stuff.

 

So, if the OP was honest about her stated wish to look back on this "relationship" and learn from it - the only things I can see to take from the weight comments are:

 

1) Don't bring up your insecurities all the time in order to have them ameliorated by your loved one; I think it usually backfires.

 

2) If your mate says or does something that really hurts your feelings or that you think is otherwise unacceptable to you, it's up to YOU to communicate about this with THEM.

 

Excellent advice btw.

[Art_Critic]

so she's not really a bully either

 

 

but the way she goes about it seems like bullying to me, albeit, as I said, ineffective bullying.

 

 

WTF ... you say TBF isn't a bully in the beginning of your post but then say she is a bully in the end of your post.

 

Your post was an obviously slight to TBF ZG.. admit it..

[zengirl]

WTF ... you say TBF isn't a bully in the beginning of your post but then say she is a bully in the end of your post.

 

Your post was an obviously slight to TBF ZG.. admit it..

 

My post was a criticism of TBF's style in this thread, yes. I never intended that to be obscured. I don't like it. I don't like the way she attempts to control and drive threads. I don't like the way she attempts to create cliques and sides. I find it distasteful. And I particularly find it distasteful to accuse someone of being rude/mean/whatever and then be rude/mean/whatever to that person above and beyond that person's potential offense.

 

Totally being critical here; not trying to hide it at all. And she can certainly criticize my posting style if she likes. And has. What I object to is when she attempts to add (generally erroneous) motives to it simply because she doesn't like it.

 

ETA: FTR, a "slight" to me is more personal in nature, but if you like that term, that's fine.

 

If my position is unclear: I don't believe she is a bully. Because she has no power. I do believe she acts like one at times (thus it's the "closest" I see here), but she lacks the power to earn the title. I don't feel bullied, because she has no power over me. Nor anyone here.

Edited August 12, 2011 by zengirl

[Art_Critic]

ETA: FTR, a "slight" to me is more personal in nature, but if you like that term, that's fine.

 

Well.. you couldn't admit it..

 

If you look at your posts in this thread you are making a personal slant of your posts because you make them about TBF and how she is a bully so therefore my use of the word slight.

 

Until this thread I didn't know of your little thing for TBF but I know now..

I've had my run ins with SG, TBF and a few others around here myself but at least I can own when I took a run at them.

[zengirl]

Well.. you couldn't admit it..

 

If you look at your posts in this thread you are making a personal slant of your posts because you make them about TBF and how she is a bully so therefore my use of the word slight.

 

Until this thread I didn't know of your little thing for TBF but I know now..

I've had my run ins with SG, TBF and a few others around here myself but at least I can own when I took a run at them.

 

A couple things

 

1. ACTING like one, in certain ways. While a person is responsible for their actions, a person is not their actions. Perhaps it's because I work with teenagers and make the distinction all the time between describing someone's actions ("This is lazy work you've done today") and who they are ("You are lazy"). I don't know if TBF is a bully; I only know how I see these particular actions. And again, they lack the threat to be bullying, but otherwise are very similar. I would call the style "domineering" and "controlling." Particularly, from my POV, I jumped in because I reacted to her attempt to control the dynamic. Was it smart to jump in? Eh, depends on what my goals were; I didn't think I could change anything or really accomplish anything, and I pretty much knew it wouldn't avoid a ****storm, but that was coming anyway. If I wanted to stay out of the ****storm (as I have many times), I could've. I didn't elect that.

 

2. I don't see how that's personal. I've not brought up anything about TBF's personal life or past history into the thread; I'm only reacting to what I see right in front of me. To me, personal would be to bring up **** from her life or something. But if you view it differently, go for it. As I said, you can use the word if you like.

 

3. I don't have a "thing" for TBF, which is why you didn't know about it. I disliked the way she behaved in this thread. And said so. That doesn't mean I have something against her in general.

 

ETA: I don't see how I'm failing to "own" anything, unless you're misunderstanding me. When I criticize someone, I make no secret of it. But it also isn't a big thing to me. I don't care if someone is bothered by my criticism. I assume everyone is ALWAYS bothered by criticism, so if I did care (and sometimes I do), I wouldn't give it. If I've decided to criticize someone, I've decided that their behavior bothers me more than the idea of bothering them does. I've made that active choice. To me, standing up against what I perceive TBF attempted to do in this thread was more important that being nice or likable or not bothering anyone. I chose that, and I certainly own it. I don't have any regret over it. But I didn't make it personal. I made it about what was being said.

Edited August 12, 2011 by zengirl

[threebyfate]

Strange how the bullies don't like being "criticized" and aren't willing to take responsibility for their own actions, while at the same time, feeling "justified" in consistently and persistently abusing and bullying criticizing every little thing that ES does. Funny dat!