zengirl Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 They do it more subtly than that. By doing things like suddenly getting mad when a woman refuses to do something they want her to because they do all the work in the relationship (by making the money) and she does nothing supposedly. Or when she wants to get married and they panic because the woman does nothing because they make more money than her. I've seen it so many times in and out of this forum. I've never seen it outside of this forum, if the guy was in love with the gal and honestly wanted to be in a relationship. Resentment happens, in men and women, certainly. But I don't think any man in love sees his woman as a culmination of her finances and the orgasms he collects from her. Which is not to say that healthy people of both gender should never consider finances or sex when getting into a relationship, but they don't see them as the end-all-be-all. A partner needs many, many qualities---financial stability and sexual compatibility are key for both genders to be happy, but they don't do much to engender love on their own. My BF definitely doesn't see me in terms of purely sex and money. Nor do plenty of men. Hell, plenty of men have pets and kids they love, and pets and kids don't give you anything in those terms. Your statement earlier was excluding the idea that men actually HAVE hearts too. And they do. Men can love and often do. Link to post Share on other sites
Enchanted Girl Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 why doesn't everyone just pay their own way when they go out, for god's sake? Noone would have to worry who is the man, who did the f-ing asking... is it a date? are we friends? What did he mean by that? Does she like me? What a load of crap... That's oversimplifying things. =) As I said in my last post, people make differing amounts of money and there's nothing wrong with whoever happens to have money at the time paying for both people. It's something that should be discussed and worked out as a couple. What if someone who makes more money wants to go to a nice restaurant and the person who makes less doesn't have enough? It becomes unfair when someone has an easy time paying their half and the other person struggles to do so. Even if we could split money 50/50 down the line, relationship responsibilities and sacrifices as a whole can't be split that way, so there's no point in trying to force them to do so. Link to post Share on other sites
musemaj11 Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I've never seen it outside of this forum, if the guy was in love with the gal and honestly wanted to be in a relationship. That is how unselfish men are. Even at a time when women no longer think its their job to 'take care' of their men in the traditional way, most men still believe in their traditional responsibility to take care of their women. Link to post Share on other sites
zengirl Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 That is how unselfish men are. Even at a time when women no longer think its their job to 'take care' of their men in the traditional way, most men still believe in their traditional responsibility to take care of their women. I wouldn't go that far. I know many men who'd never date a woman who was total dead weight and expected to be treated as a pet or 50s Housewife . . . they wouldn't fall in love with that woman. That doesn't mean the sexy, independent, lovely woman they DO love = her money and frequency of sex is all I'm saying. Most men fall in love with a woman for the way she makes him FEEL (and not just or even mostly in a between-the-sheets way, but in a heart-connection way). Link to post Share on other sites
Enchanted Girl Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I've never seen it outside of this forum, if the guy was in love with the gal and honestly wanted to be in a relationship. Resentment happens, in men and women, certainly. But I don't think any man in love sees his woman as a culmination of her finances and the orgasms he collects from her. Which is not to say that healthy people of both gender should never consider finances or sex when getting into a relationship, but they don't see them as the end-all-be-all. A partner needs many, many qualities---financial stability and sexual compatibility are key for both genders to be happy, but they don't do much to engender love on their own. My BF definitely doesn't see me in terms of purely sex and money. Nor do plenty of men. Hell, plenty of men have pets and kids they love, and pets and kids don't give you anything in those terms. Your statement earlier was excluding the idea that men actually HAVE hearts too. And they do. Men can love and often do. Well, you have to understand that I never think in terms of absolutes because there are exceptions to pretty much everything. And I do agree that men don't want to date a woman who has a bad personality and they'd prefer a woman who shares their hobbies and relates to the world in similar ways to how they do and so on and so forth. But when they sit down and actually count who's giving more to the relationship, most men I hear talk about it think they are automatically giving more if they are paying for everything. While they like those traits, they don't view them as sacrifices or actual contributions being given. Link to post Share on other sites
musemaj11 Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I don't know anyone that pays for their "friends". I mean maybe if its a bday or something special thats different. Obviously you and the people you know are cheapskates. In my circle, we always pitch in for the friends who cant afford it and they will do the same when they can. Link to post Share on other sites
LoveandSuch Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I will let my gf and all the women I have dated know they have no dignity. You can continue to date in your backwards hick town. Enjoy all the losers who are willing to cater to you. Maybe one of them will have a full set of teeth and a vocabulary that consists of something more than the words on a bud light label. See I can do that too. Isn't mocking and stereotyping fun children?!? I have no role reversal issue. I simply believe in less traditional roles and feel no need to fulfill the traditional male role in the same way the women I date feel no need to fulfill the traditional female gender role. You are a silly man, if you have a gf who enjoys your thrifty ways, what gives? She is accepting of you. So who cares if some women including myself like to be wined and dined by a man who wishes to wine and dine us, and enjoys it. Link to post Share on other sites
zengirl Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Well, you have to understand that I never think in terms of absolutes because there are exceptions to pretty much everything. And I do agree that men don't want to date a woman who has a bad personality and they'd prefer a woman who shares their hobbies and relates to the world in similar ways to how they do and so on and so forth. But when they sit down and actually count who's giving more to the relationship, most men I hear talk about it think they are automatically giving more if they are paying for everything. While they like those traits, they don't view them as sacrifices or actual contributions being given. Well, calculation is generally only in play when the relationship is already on the rocks, honestly. Calculation is the death of a relationship. So I'm not sure anyone who's counting is in a great relationship. The men I know well are lovely creatures. Otherwise, they wouldn't be my friends or partner (past partners). They're compassionate, they're giving, they're loving, and they understand that being a partner is something that is in many ways incalculable (for women AND men). Plenty of them are far more romantic than I. Link to post Share on other sites
LoveandSuch Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I will let my gf and all the women I have dated know they have no dignity. You can continue to date in your backwards hick town. Enjoy all the losers who are willing to cater to you. Maybe one of them will have a full set of teeth and a vocabulary that consists of something more than the words on a bud light label. See I can do that too. Isn't mocking and stereotyping fun children?!? I have no role reversal issue. I simply believe in less traditional roles and feel no need to fulfill the traditional male role in the same way the women I date feel no need to fulfill the traditional female gender role. Plus, men on this forum are only asking for a change in traditional roles if it suits them. What about the concept that marriage is sacred or exclusive relationships. What is fair about that. Shouldn't all people be able to not be held to that role, and just maintain all roles as OPEN relationships? Why are men only allowed to be priests????? Why don't men take artificial hormones and start breast feeding children? Why don't more men stay home and take care of the children? Why do only woman crochet, why aren't more men crocheting? Why don't short men wear high heels? Why aren't more men baking cute little shaped cookies for their children? If you want to change gender and/or social norm rules/roles to suit you, why not change them all? Why are their female and male bathrooms? Why don't men wear lace, lace t shirts, lace pants? Why don't men wear bras who have man boobs, or A cups? A cup woman wear bras too? What about 2 piece bathing suits? Not all of us want to see your hairy man boobs! Why is gender ALWAYS an issue for those running for office? Link to post Share on other sites
musemaj11 Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 You are so wrong. I am a woman who feels that I should "take care" of my man traditionally. I see nothing wrong with making sure my loving husband, has a delicious meal when he comes home. I enjoy nurturing him, by monitoring my husband's medical appointments and buying him the socks and underwear he forgets about. If I am on my way to a garbage pail, I will often grab a wrapper out of his hand on the way, just as my husband will bring me a drink if he is in the kitchen. I do these things because he takes care of me emotionally and financially. He is my husband and he believes that he is to provide. I work because I am used to having my own money; I lived alone for nearly a decade before I married. My husband takes care of 98% of the expenses, toiling away at a company that he hates. My tired salaryman does so much for me, so I feel that he deserves to be looked after as well. When I am sick, he brings me medicine, magazines and cuddles. Marriage is about give and take. When we were dating, my husband wined and dined me, as well as bought me lovely gifts on special occasions. He also drove in the snow to help me move and painted my apartment for me. When I spent my days off at his place, he would come home to laundry done and dinner. No wonder he married me! I am the only woman he met, who did not bellow about "equal rights", yet demand to be spoiled. I showed my appreciation for all the romance and the tenderness. Im fine with traditional relationship in which the men take care of the women financially while the women take care of the men at home and not let him lift a finger. What I abhor are women who expect to be taken care of in a certain way yet dont live up to their own responsibility. My coworker for example just got divorced recently after only one year of marriage. He told me the reason was that his wife was a lazy leech. During the marriage he fulfilled his traditional duties by working his arse off to provide for the two of them while at the same time his wife hardly ever worked, only knew how to cook pancake, didnt clean, didnt do dishes, nothing. So he resented her because he had to do everything by himself and the only thing that was different was that he had another mouth to feed. Link to post Share on other sites
musemaj11 Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Plus, men on this forum are only asking for a change in traditional roles if it suits them. What about the concept that marriage is sacred or exclusive relationships. What is fair about that. Shouldn't all people be able to not be held to that role, and just maintain all roles as OPEN relationships? Why are men only allowed to be priests????? Why don't men take artificial hormones and start breast feeding children? Why don't more men stay home and take care of the children? Why do only woman crochet, why aren't more men crocheting? Why don't short men wear high heels? Why aren't more men baking cute little shaped cookies for their children? If you want to change gender and/or social norm rules/roles to suit you, why not change them all? Why are their female and male bathrooms? Why don't men wear lace, lace t shirts, lace pants? Why don't men wear bras who have man boobs, or A cups? A cup woman wear bras too? What about 2 piece bathing suits? Not all of us want to see your hairy man boobs! Why is gender ALWAYS an issue for those running for office? Thats like the dumbest argument ever. Speaks volume about you. Link to post Share on other sites
Sanman Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 When you go out with a friend for dinner, do you try to sleep with them afterwards? XD Yea, don't compare romance and friendships. They are two totally different things. And yes, I have paid for my friends ways when going out to dinner with them. If I want to go out to dinner and they have no money and I do, then why not? It was my idea and its a nice gesture and they pay me back with their company. After dinner, no. However, after we are out at a bar sure. It has happened on a few occasions over the years in my friends group and not just to me. People talk about FWB here all the time. I had a friend who was still sleeping with his ex-gf months after they broke up while she was dating other men. He finally stopped when he met his now wife. I look my boyfriend out earlier this year to a restaurant that cost me $100 when the bill came. I encouraged him to order a steak when I paid for it and I did not tally up everything he's paid for related to me before I took him out to dinner. I did it because I love him. Anyway, I don't have an idealized view about men needing to court women. In fact, I don't even think the costs of going out should be "fair." I think whoever has the money should be the one to pay regardless of who that is and/or how many times they may or may not have paid in the past. And if it needs to be discussed beforehand then its better to do it then than spring it on them on the date. Lol, at the $100 bill. I wish that was a lot in NYC. A word on courting...it was all well and good during the time when a man had the expectation that the woman he was seeing wanted and ltr or marriage and was exclusive from day one. Now, women (and men) have the right to want many different things from a relationship and no one has the right to expect you are not seeing or sleeping with others prior to an exclusivity talk. In such a dating environment, courting seems a fools' errand to me. You'd rather spend your money on more worthwhile places? =/ While I agree with you that men don't necessarily need to always pay, I think its offensive that you think that women are not worthwhile under any circumstances to be paid for. Part of being in a relationship and dating means you're eventually going to have to give parts of yourself to other people. The easiest way to stay selfish is to remain alone. I never said women are not worthwhile under any circumstances. I don't think paying for dates is not worthwhile under any circumstances. A s a relationship progresses so does my level of affection. My gf gets many gifts and things from me as we are in a relationship. Should she become my fiancee or wife, she can expect even greater attention to her needs both in the form of monetary gifts and emotional support. Again, I think many Americans have it backwards. They woo a guy/girl at the beginning and take a wife/husband for granted. I believe that the longer one is a loyal and supportive partner, the more you should value them. I don't ever expect to take my wife for granted. In fact, I think the wining and dining should be done for one's wife/husband/life partner more so than for someone you have just met. Why? because they have proven themselves to be a worthwhile partner and important part of my life. I value that. Link to post Share on other sites
Cracker Jack Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Plus, men on this forum are only asking for a change in traditional roles if it suits them. What about the concept that marriage is sacred or exclusive relationships. What is fair about that. Shouldn't all people be able to not be held to that role, and just maintain all roles as OPEN relationships? Why are men only allowed to be priests????? Why don't men take artificial hormones and start breast feeding children? Why don't more men stay home and take care of the children? Why do only woman crochet, why aren't more men crocheting? Why don't short men wear high heels? Why aren't more men baking cute little shaped cookies for their children? If you want to change gender and/or social norm rules/roles to suit you, why not change them all? Why are their female and male bathrooms? Why don't men wear lace, lace t shirts, lace pants? Why don't men wear bras who have man boobs, or A cups? A cup woman wear bras too? What about 2 piece bathing suits? Not all of us want to see your hairy man boobs! Why is gender ALWAYS an issue for those running for office? I must admit, I lol'd there. Link to post Share on other sites
Sanman Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Plus, men on this forum are only asking for a change in traditional roles if it suits them. What about the concept that marriage is sacred or exclusive relationships. What is fair about that. Shouldn't all people be able to not be held to that role, and just maintain all roles as OPEN relationships? Why are men only allowed to be priests????? Why don't men take artificial hormones and start breast feeding children? Why don't more men stay home and take care of the children? Why do only woman crochet, why aren't more men crocheting? Why don't short men wear high heels? Why aren't more men baking cute little shaped cookies for their children? If you want to change gender and/or social norm rules/roles to suit you, why not change them all? Why are their female and male bathrooms? Why don't men wear lace, lace t shirts, lace pants? Why don't men wear bras who have man boobs, or A cups? A cup woman wear bras too? What about 2 piece bathing suits? Not all of us want to see your hairy man boobs! Why is gender ALWAYS an issue for those running for office? Um I am not Christian, so I have nothing to say about priests. I have heels on my dress shoes, I am all for women not wearing bras, no one has to crochet or bake (huh?), there are unisex bathrooms in many places, why is gender always an issue when paying for dates? Link to post Share on other sites
Sanman Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 You are a silly man, if you have a gf who enjoys your thrifty ways, what gives? She is accepting of you. So who cares if some women including myself like to be wined and dined by a man who wishes to wine and dine us, and enjoys it. Um, it is a public forum and we are having a public debate. Why did the OP start the thread? why did you respond? Why is there a message board at all? Link to post Share on other sites
zengirl Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Why is there a message board at all? To thwart us all. Link to post Share on other sites
LoveandSuch Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Thats like the dumbest argument ever. Speaks volume about you. It's true! Men just want their cake and to eat it too. You are cheap, just be accepting of that. Now you want to place a woman and her responsibilities. Your mind is definitely that of a man, you want to spread where your prejudices lie. Now it is okay for a woman to be kept, if her life consists of certain criteria. Some women work, and their men support them, and the men do not expect her to go picking up after him, that's what we employ housekeepers to do. Sheesh, just pay for the date, what is so evil about that? Link to post Share on other sites
Sanman Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 It's true! Men just want their cake and to eat it too. You are cheap, just be accepting of that. Now you want to place a woman and her responsibilities. Your mind is definitely that of a man, you want to spread where your prejudices lie. Now it is okay for a woman to be kept, if her life consists of certain criteria. Some women work, and their men support them, and the men do not expect her to go picking up after him, that's what we employ housekeepers to do. Sheesh, just pay for the date, what is so evil about that? Just pay for your own meal...what is so evil about that? Link to post Share on other sites
musemaj11 Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I notice that all the women who come across as self-entitled dont seem to be very intelligent at all. Perhaps there is correlation. Link to post Share on other sites
LoveandSuch Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Um I am not Christian, so I have nothing to say about priests. I have heels on my dress shoes, I am all for women not wearing bras, no one has to crochet or bake (huh?), there are unisex bathrooms in many places, why is gender always an issue when paying for dates? The point of this is men want women to change their gender roles for their advantages only, the mens, but I do not see any men changing theirs to fit our ideals. Crap, you want women to start paying for dates and to start being equal, then men need to start being more emotional, tending to our tender sides, talk about feelings. I see men on here, oh I will not be her emotional tampon....blah blah. You guys do not even want to pay for a date, equal rights, but would be pissed if women were allowed to mix in and play for your favorite NFL or soccer team. Why not? It would be fair, or would you see it as screwing up your game? Link to post Share on other sites
ptp Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Plus, men on this forum are only asking for a change in traditional roles if it suits them. What about the concept that marriage is sacred or exclusive relationships. What is fair about that. Shouldn't all people be able to not be held to that role, and just maintain all roles as OPEN relationships? Why are men only allowed to be priests????? Why don't men take artificial hormones and start breast feeding children? Why don't more men stay home and take care of the children? Why do only woman crochet, why aren't more men crocheting? Why don't short men wear high heels? Why aren't more men baking cute little shaped cookies for their children? If you want to change gender and/or social norm rules/roles to suit you, why not change them all? Why are their female and male bathrooms? Why don't men wear lace, lace t shirts, lace pants? Why don't men wear bras who have man boobs, or A cups? A cup woman wear bras too? What about 2 piece bathing suits? Not all of us want to see your hairy man boobs! Why is gender ALWAYS an issue for those running for office? Thats like the dumbest argument ever. Speaks volume about you. I have to admit musemaj made me laugh out loud. Link to post Share on other sites
zengirl Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Um I am not Christian, so I have nothing to say about priests. I have heels on my dress shoes, I am all for women not wearing bras, no one has to crochet or bake (huh?), there are unisex bathrooms in many places, why is gender always an issue when paying for dates? Wait, you wear heels? Link to post Share on other sites
LoveandSuch Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I notice that all the women who come across as self-entitled dont seem to be very intelligent at all. Perhaps there is correlation. Next!!! Men cannot stand a strong woman who will not put up with or are desperate enough to fall for your role reversal game. Yes, we are not as intelligent as you, Maj? says it all. Link to post Share on other sites
ptp Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Wait, you wear heels? Some shorter guys wear "lifts". I doubt they are nearly as painful as what women wear . Link to post Share on other sites
Sanman Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 The point of this is men want women to change their gender roles for their advantages only, the mens, but I do not see any men changing theirs to fit our ideals. Crap, you want women to start paying for dates and to start being equal, then men need to start being more emotional, tending to our tender sides, talk about feelings. I see men on here, oh I will not be her emotional tampon....blah blah. You guys do not even want to pay for a date, equal rights, but would be pissed if women were allowed to mix in and play for your favorite NFL or soccer team. Why not? It would be fair, or would you see it as screwing up your game? Yeah we are only in it for ourselves. I can't remember the last time anyone but me cooked, cleaned, or did my laundry for me. I emotionally support my gf. If you want to put a helmet on and be run over by a 300 lbs line backer, be my guest. Better you than me! Link to post Share on other sites
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