What is WRONG with the idea that a man wants to "take care" of his woman?

[ThsAmericanLife]

What a clever business plan THIS is!! Ipad covers made from Bernie Madoff's clothing... $500. Not only is it a great way to recycle, it is a pretty fitting tribute to that guy.

 

Maybe something for an enterprising gold digger to put on her shopping list?

 

Hmmm... I wonder what Bernie's wife is up to these days??

 

http://www.pcworld.com/article/237806/bernie_madoffs_pants_sold_as_ipad_covers.html

[rafallus]

why doesn't everyone just pay their own way when they go out, for god's sake?

 

Noone would have to worry who is the man, who did the f-ing asking... is it a date? are we friends? What did he mean by that? Does she like me?

 

What a load of crap...

 

Really, most elegant solution out there. Thread could end at this.

[Art_Critic]

Thread could end at this.

 

Thread should have ended 5 pages ago...but......

[Art_Critic]

Penny pinching and dating don't go together very well, particularly if you resent paying for another person. No one wants a cheap man or woman.

 

Word Up !!!.... I can't believe I just used that phrase...

[zengirl]

I don't understand the association that if a man asks a woman out and buys dinner, it has anything to do with sex. Why would there be anything to do with sex?

On a date, it has never occurred to me "oh, this man is buying me dinner. He is probably expecting me to have sex with him later."

 

In fact, the men who wanted/tried to have sex with me on the first date? They were the guys who let me put in my share (we're talking in America where the fellow paying is the cultural norm, whether you like it or not---this is how these guys were socialized).

 

Not that every guy who didn't let me put in my share was a prince, mind you, but every good, gallant, BF-material guy (who was also American, and many who weren't and simply knew *I* was American and the customs where I was from) I've ever been on a first date with has refused my offer to pay or throw in on the first date and generally any immediately subsequent/early dates. (Now I'll insist and toss in if I know I'm not interested in the guy, because I feel that's good decorum.) Did they do so for sex? Generally: no. They did so because they liked me, and their socialization compelled them to grab that check and hold on tight.

 

It's been my experience that the guys that are keen on letting me pay early on are also the guys who would be keen on just sleeping with me and not developing anything further. So, I see no correlation between sex and paying on a date; instead, I see a correlation between desiring to build something together and paying on a date. That said, generally women (at least in my generation; I'm in my mid-20s) are socialized these days to OFFER (with relative sincerity; I think they're socialized now to really mean it, but my generation is mixed) to pay their way, at least, if they are trying to build something with the man, and women who do not offer are more likely to be bad prospects.

 

That said: Offering is not paying. I always offer, I rarely pay. The check dance takes it's natural flow, and while it sounds rehearsed or absurd when we critique it on a forum, I've never experienced any dissonance or even much variation in it when I liked the guy/he liked me.

 

As I said before in another thread, the instinct to provide is in our gene as men.

 

I'm not sure it is. I think it's purely socialized, and socialized to different ends and degrees these days.

 

Though everyone---male or female---wants to share and give and provide things for the person they love, in whatever form.

 

At any rate, I think you have it all wrong in your litany (I didn't quote it) of responsibilities and ingratitudes. Sure, plenty of people, male or female, are ungrateful, and those people suck. But that's the issue of the whole modern vs. traditional false dichotomy. Just because I let a guy buy me some Thai food doesn't mean I have to don an apron and clean the house every day; they are two totally separate traditions.

 

A woman (or man, if it ever happened) who doesn't have the means to earn money on her own (no education, no hope of a career, etc), perhaps she needs to worry about what she can provide domestically, but that doesn't mean that a partner---male or female---is a bad person if they have a heightened or better lifestyle because they happened to find a partner who made more than they do/could. I know a woman who is the VP of a huge financial company, and her husband teaches music lessons for $11 part time and plays with his band and hangs out with their dog all day. Sure, he fixes stuff around the house and is a good partner in other ways but not because he feels guilty that she's providing for him; he lived on his on and had a roof and food to eat and could again. . . anyone who has had that has earned their independence and right to do as they please, really, and if both partners agree to a lifestyle where one pays more of the bills, why do people outside of it care?

[donnamaybe]

I don't view men as cash cows and don't value men who feel their primary value has to be expressed through their wallets. It is about as appealing to me, as say, a woman who feels their primary value is their looks/body/sex might be to some men. Not surprisingly, it is usually these two that find solace with each other...

Yep. Just look at the reality shows on TV these days. Bubble headed bleached blondes with plastic tits with these ancient relics loaded with cash and all their brains in their Viagara riddled penis.

[Art_Critic]

Yep. Just look at the reality shows on TV these days. Bubble headed bleached blondes with plastic tits with these ancient relics loaded with cash and all their brains in their Viagara riddled penis.

 

So you feel that reality TV accurately portrays life ?.. those are just soap operas DM..

[AlexDP]

Well everyone has their own opinions and beliefs about this topic. And whatever works for one individual or couple may not work for another.

 

 

I still stand by my opinion that whoever does the asking out for the date should be the one to pay..unless the other party insists on paying or even goind dutch.

 

I get comments from friends about what my bf does for me. Since they know I couldn't afford some of the thinkgs we do or places we have been they come to the conclusion that he must have paid and even though they are right, I don't think its anyones business to make comments. I think its jealousy.

 

Perhaps this is weird and not the experience of most men, but every date I've been on, the girl has offered to pay. And usually not just her share either, but everything. If she felt entitled and thought I had to pay everything no matter what, the date would be over then and there. It's an awful precedent for a future relationship.

 

That being said though, I generally pay the most on a first date. If we go to the movies for example, I just pay for both tickets. Part of this is because I want to avoid the embarrassing silence when we both look at the check. So far almost every girl has either offered to pay for hers later or has paid for our drinks.

 

I'm very picky when it comes to women and I don't go on dates just like that, I have to really like the girl already. And fairness is something I appreciate a lot. So that probably explains it. But with all the threads about women feeling entitled, I think I should say that there are LOTS of decent and fair women out there.

[donnamaybe]

So you feel that reality TV accurately portrays life ?.. those are just soap operas DM..

It portrays a skewed lifestyle. Yes, there really ARE people like Anna Nicole Smith (poor, sad creature ) and a myriad of other material driven people that "grace" our culture.

[CatNtheHat]

See, this is where I have to ask what qualifies asking. If I suggest activity A (picnic, coffee, etc) somewhere and she says she can't do that time/place or whatever and suggests we try restaurant xyz am I asking her out or did she reject my proposition and ask me out?

 

Thatone, I don't think they are jealous in the way you are stating as these are female friends she is talking about. It is possible they are jealous she has a rich bf.

 

My bf isn't rich. Yes he is successful and does well.But he works his tail off. He went to school a number of years to make what he does.

 

I wish I was as intelligent as he is...

Edited August 11, 2011 by CatNtheHat

[ptp]

I wish I as intelligent as he is...

 

I am sure you do.

[CatNtheHat]

I am sure you do.

 

Most people do. He does a job, that most people can't wrap their brains around.

 

You seem to have an issue with me.. And you don't even know me.. That's a little creepy..

[donnamaybe]

Most people do. He does a job, that most people can't wrap their brains around.

 

You seem to have an issue with me.. And you don't even know me.. That's a little creepy..

You haven't displayed this attitude of entitlement that I've seen by some in this thread. Huge difference.

 

Yes, I've had guys take me out for dinner and pay, even on a first date. If they want to go to some expensive restaurant with a single mom, yes - they'd have to pay or we couldn't go. I did, however, make sure to not wring them dry for every penny I could. It just wouldn't feel right. Also, it's certainly not an expectation. I would be just as fine with a walk and good conversation and a cool drink afterward. And I'd take turns buying.

 

In fact, I would prefer that. It's much more low key and a better forum for getting to know one another.

[ptp]

Most people do. He does a job, that most people can't wrap their brains around.

 

You seem to have an issue with me.. And you don't even know me.. That's a little creepy..

 

I have expressed my views on your posts in a coherent and unambiguous manner a couple of times. It has nothing to do with knowing or not knowing you, other posters have made similar comments as I have.

Edited August 11, 2011 by ptp

[CatNtheHat]

I have expressed my views on your posts in a coherent and unambiguous manner a couple of times. It has nothing to do with knowing or not knowing you, other posters have made similar comments as I have.

 

I'm not entitled, I'm just lucky to have a generous bf.

[CatNtheHat]

You haven't displayed this attitude of entitlement that I've seen by some in this thread. Huge difference.

 

Yes, I've had guys take me out for dinner and pay, even on a first date. If they want to go to some expensive restaurant with a single mom, yes - they'd have to pay or we couldn't go. I did, however, make sure to not wring them dry for every penny I could. It just wouldn't feel right. Also, it's certainly not an expectation. I would be just as fine with a walk and good conversation and a cool drink afterward. And I'd take turns buying.

 

In fact, I would prefer that. It's much more low key and a better forum for getting to know one another.

 

That's because I don't feel I'm entitled to anything. Sure I want to be treated well, but I also want to treat back. I can't do it finacially but I try in other ways.

I don't have a problem saying that I think some men are cheap, too cheap. No one likes a cheap skate.

 

No one should be taken advantage of either.

[donnamaybe]

That's because I don't feel I'm entitled to anything. Sure I want to be treated well, but I also want to treat back. I can't do it finacially but I try in other ways.

I don't have a problem saying that I think some men are cheap, too cheap. No one likes a cheap skate.

 

No one should be taken advantage of either.

And the guy who pulled the bait and switch on you? Jackass. Complete and total.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I definitely believe that gender relations would improve massively if more men learned to crochet.

[Nay]

I mean if a man wants t do that it's fine but listen to this I don't care how long you know a person trust me you will never realy know them, so I said that to say this in the long run all he will do is throw it back in her face. it was done to me before and we took care of eachother men tend to g3et really big balls when then think they have to do something for a woman, when I think if yall are in a relationship it should go both ways. we are in this together so lets do what we have to to keep our love alive....alot of woman and men do not agree with this thats why people start to think and ask ?'s like your doing now...a relationship should be 50/50.

[CatNtheHat]

I mean if a man wants t do that it's fine but listen to this I don't care how long you know a person trust me you will never realy know them, so I said that to say this in the long run all he will do is throw it back in her face. it was done to me before and we took care of eachother men tend to g3et really big balls when then think they have to do something for a woman, when I think if yall are in a relationship it should go both ways. we are in this together so lets do what we have to to keep our love alive....alot of woman and men do not agree with this thats why people start to think and ask ?'s like your doing now...a relationship should be 50/50.

 

 

you will never really know them? If you really think this, your dating the wrong kind of men.

[CatNtheHat]

I believe that a cheap person is stingy in other ways too. Cheap people tend to be cold, mean people as well.

 

The cheap men I encountered usually had a bad experience with another woman or women. Often, from what I know, cheap men are bitter about a past relationship. Just because a man feels he was "taken for a ride" from a past gf, is no reason to take a woman to Wendy's, for a date. And than these are the same exact men that complain about being single and not being able to find a good woman. Its called being a gentleman and having some class.

[FitChick]

Penny pinching and dating don't go together very well, particularly if you resent paying for another person. No one wants a cheap man or woman.

 

I had a friend who dated a cheap guy. He didn't even want to go Dutch to a more expensive restaurant because it meant he'd pay more than going to a cheap dive. When my friend went clothes shopping with him, she had him try on two shirts. She asked him which one he liked better. "How much do they cost?" he asked. "You don't have to buy either of them, just tell me which one you like better?" He wouldn't say until he found out which was cheaper then said he liked that one. They lived together and buying things for the apartment was also a struggle. This type of behavior eventually bugged her so much (he didn't want to move out of their cheap, crappy apartment even though they could afford a nicer one) that she dumped him. She married a man who made as much money and they bought a nice house. The ex is still single in his crappy apartment.

[Enchanted Girl]

Penny pinching and dating don't go together very well, particularly if you resent paying for another person. No one wants a cheap man or woman.

 

I don't think resenting someone is a good way to start a relationship, but some people are "cheap" because they genuinely don't have very much money and I wouldn't fault them for that.

 

My personal experience is that men who want to take care of a woman expected some kind of obedience from her. In exchange for taking care of the woman they want to take all the decisions.

That never worked for me, I refused to play a role in HIS scenario. Since I earn my own money I also have no need to play a role in a scenario that I did not (co)write myself.

Nothing wrong with being treated to dinner once in a while of course, or being taken on a trip. But I also reciprocate in these things.

 

This is very true.

 

Really, most elegant solution out there. Thread could end at this.

 

It's really not that simple though. Both people don't always have the money to pay for a date as I've said several times earlier and as someone else pointed out, what if one of them was rich and the other wasn't and wanted to go to a nice restaurant? =/ Really, it should be, whoever has money should be the one who pays. If its both people, then both people can pay.

 

I make very little money . . . . the most I've ever made is minimum wage, but I also always have much less bills to pay than any boyfriend I ever have, so while they tend to make more and are usually broke, I'm the one taking them to nice restaurants because I'm the one who usually has spending money.

 

In fact, the men who wanted/tried to have sex with me on the first date? They were the guys who let me put in my share (we're talking in America where the fellow paying is the cultural norm, whether you like it or not---this is how these guys were socialized).

 

Not that every guy who didn't let me put in my share was a prince, mind you, but every good, gallant, BF-material guy (who was also American, and many who weren't and simply knew *I* was American and the customs where I was from) I've ever been on a first date with has refused my offer to pay or throw in on the first date and generally any immediately subsequent/early dates. (Now I'll insist and toss in if I know I'm not interested in the guy, because I feel that's good decorum.) Did they do so for sex? Generally: no. They did so because they liked me, and their socialization compelled them to grab that check and hold on tight.

 

It's been my experience that the guys that are keen on letting me pay early on are also the guys who would be keen on just sleeping with me and not developing anything further. So, I see no correlation between sex and paying on a date; instead, I see a correlation between desiring to build something together and paying on a date. That said, generally women (at least in my generation; I'm in my mid-20s) are socialized these days to OFFER (with relative sincerity; I think they're socialized now to really mean it, but my generation is mixed) to pay their way, at least, if they are trying to build something with the man, and women who do not offer are more likely to be bad prospects.

 

That said: Offering is not paying. I always offer, I rarely pay. The check dance takes it's natural flow, and while it sounds rehearsed or absurd when we critique it on a forum, I've never experienced any dissonance or even much variation in it when I liked the guy/he liked me.

 

 

 

I'm not sure it is. I think it's purely socialized, and socialized to different ends and degrees these days.

 

Though everyone---male or female---wants to share and give and provide things for the person they love, in whatever form.

 

At any rate, I think you have it all wrong in your litany (I didn't quote it) of responsibilities and ingratitudes. Sure, plenty of people, male or female, are ungrateful, and those people suck. But that's the issue of the whole modern vs. traditional false dichotomy. Just because I let a guy buy me some Thai food doesn't mean I have to don an apron and clean the house every day; they are two totally separate traditions.

 

A woman (or man, if it ever happened) who doesn't have the means to earn money on her own (no education, no hope of a career, etc), perhaps she needs to worry about what she can provide domestically, but that doesn't mean that a partner---male or female---is a bad person if they have a heightened or better lifestyle because they happened to find a partner who made more than they do/could. I know a woman who is the VP of a huge financial company, and her husband teaches music lessons for $11 part time and plays with his band and hangs out with their dog all day. Sure, he fixes stuff around the house and is a good partner in other ways but not because he feels guilty that she's providing for him; he lived on his on and had a roof and food to eat and could again. . . anyone who has had that has earned their independence and right to do as they please, really, and if both partners agree to a lifestyle where one pays more of the bills, why do people outside of it care?

 

I definitely agree that our generation of woman is like this.

 

And I appreciate you saying the second part. As I said earlier, I make only minimum wage and always have. I work just as hard as people who are paid much more than me, but I've never been able to get a better job than this and it would hurt me a lot if a man resented me for it or felt that I owed him something just because its next to impossible for me to date a man who makes as little as I do.

 

I believe that a cheap person is stingy in other ways too. Cheap people tend to be cold, mean people as well.

 

When I was younger, I dated men who took me to Mickey D's (tacky!) and complained about the cost.

 

I also dated a man who only took me on one date the whole time we were together and refused to pick me up because of gas money. If I had more self esteem back then, I would have left him immediately, instead of doing things to try to get him to love me, like cooking and cleaning. He didn't think I was worth spending money on, he just wanted to use me for sex.

 

By the time I met my husband, I was jaded about men. I refused to date another cheap ass, because of my horrible experience from Mr. Tightwad. Luckily, my husband is a gentleman. He only let me pay once in a great while.

 

Like I said before, its bad when someone is resentful and resents the cost, but I don't really think of McDonald's as tacky. Maybe a bit on the first date, but what if they can't afford anything else?

 

I've always dated men who make very little and have had to go to fast food places for dates many times because of it and really I enjoy it and its no big deal.

 

Although some pretentious bitches took a picture of me one of the times this was happening when my boyfriend at the time gave me a kiss and I found the picture in a magazine later with the caption "These lower class individuals went to a McDonald's for a date and after eating greasy food, made out in front of everyone." All he gave me was a quick kiss. =( And it just sickened me to my stomach that this society is so obsessed with money that two people enjoying each other's company at a McDonald's makes them losers automatically.

[Sanman]

Like I said before, its bad when someone is resentful and resents the cost, but I don't really think of McDonald's as tacky. Maybe a bit on the first date, but what if they can't afford anything else?

 

I've always dated men who make very little and have had to go to fast food places for dates many times because of it and really I enjoy it and its no big deal.

 

Although some pretentious bitches took a picture of me one of the times this was happening when my boyfriend at the time gave me a kiss and I found the picture in a magazine later with the caption "These lower class individuals went to a McDonald's for a date and after eating greasy food, made out in front of everyone." All he gave me was a quick kiss. =( And it just sickened me to my stomach that this society is so obsessed with money that two people enjoying each other's company at a McDonald's makes them losers automatically.

 

 

He should have opened up a new credit card and gone into debt to take you to a $400 restaurant, maybe opened a couple of bottles of cab. Because then he would be a gentleman.

[CatNtheHat]

He should have opened up a new credit card and gone into debt to take you to a $400 restaurant, maybe opened a couple of bottles of cab. Because then he would be a gentleman.

 

 

Why does it have to be a "400 restaurant". How about a place like Chilis or Olive Garden? But to take a woman your trying to impress to McDonald's? Cmon.