The Affair Boat

[Woggle]

Really, Woggle, that's what it's like arguing with your wife?

 

We do argue but it usually lasts a few hours and then we deal with it. We don't keep going around and around in circles over the same crap. That is what it was like in my first marriage and eventually it got to the point where I didn't even want to go home after work anymore.

[xxoo]

We do argue but it usually lasts a few hours and then we deal with it. We don't keep going around and around in circles over the same crap. That is what it was like in my first marriage and eventually it got to the point where I didn't even want to go home after work anymore.

 

But that wasn't normal, obviously. That isn't the way normal women function in healthy relationships. It isn't accurate or fair to paint that as how "women" act, or how 'marriage" is.

 

If things are that bad, something is wrong. Either something is wrong with her (possible), or something is wrong with the relationship. Speaking generally, a woman who doesn't feel she's getting enough connection with her spouse (talking) may act a lot like a man who doesn't feel like he's getting enough sex: angry, denied, rejected.

[xxoo]

We dont mind talking... I actualy encourage it.

 

Its the bitching, nagging, nitpicking of silly things and silly fight picking we cant stand and beleive me...there is a difference between this stuf and talking

 

But why does she do that? Because she's a miserable person and likes conflict? I don't buy that.

 

It's not just talking. It's feeling heard and understood.

[John Michael Kane]

 

aaaaaand that was your two cents...thanks for coming out

 

No it's a fact.

[John Michael Kane]

But why does she do that? Because she's a miserable person and likes conflict? I don't buy that.

 

It's not just talking. It's feeling heard and understood.

 

The "problems" they have aren't even relevant since she's currently being cheated on so she's not the miserable one here.

[Turtles]

The "problems" they have aren't even relevant since she's currently being cheated on so she's not the miserable one here.

 

K, sometimes I really envy your black and white vision of things. It must be so convenient.

[StoneCold]

The "problems" they have aren't even relevant since she's currently being cheated on so she's not the miserable one here.

 

 

I love your "thoguht process....."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

or lack there of

[StoneCold]

But why does she do that? Because she's a miserable person and likes conflict? I don't buy that.

 

 

 

Why does she do that?...god knows

 

So let me ask you... give me one good reason why someone would do that after they were specifically told that you dont like being spoken to in that manner and as a result will not respond well....one good reason for nagging one to death, nit picking insignificant things (she even acknowledges this from time to time and notes the poor reaction she gets )...one good reason

[Turtles]

Oh, yeah. I know what you mean, but guys can do that too. It's not just women. It happens with ANY person who refuses to deal logically and realistically and ONLY wants to win their point, even if it's invalid.

 

Or 2 people who have radically different concepts of what is logical.

 

What is the way out though?

[xxoo]

Why does she do that?...god knows

 

So let me ask you... give me one good reason why someone would do that after they were specifically told that you dont like being spoken to in that manner and as a result will not respond well....one good reason for nagging one to death, nit picking insignificant things (she even acknowledges this from time to time and notes the poor reaction she gets )...one good reason

 

There are no good reasons for poor behavior.

 

Did she do this when dating? It just started one day, out of nowhere?

[Turtles]

Well, if the issue is so big it cannot be a situation where you can just agree to disagree, then it might be a dealbreaker. It depends on the issue and the individuals in the R. But to constantly bicker about it only engenders anger and is useless, draining, and a complete waste of energy.

 

What happens if you can't leave? Do you play it like StoneCold?

[xxoo]

Or 2 people who have radically different concepts of what is logical.

 

What is the way out though?

 

My H and I have different concepts of what is logical. He is more predictable, imo, but still predictably illogical

 

It doesn't matter.

 

What matters is--I care about his needs, he cares about mine, and we are on the same team. He doesn't have to understand why I feel that way, just care that I do, and vice versa.

[StoneCold]

There are no good reasons for poor behavior.

 

Did she do this when dating? It just started one day, out of nowhere?

 

If she did this while dating I would have been outtie like saudi... I think women know this which is why they tend not to do this at that point

[giotto]

Why does she do that?...god knows

 

So let me ask you... give me one good reason why someone would do that after they were specifically told that you dont like being spoken to in that manner and as a result will not respond well....one good reason for nagging one to death, nit picking insignificant things (she even acknowledges this from time to time and notes the poor reaction she gets )...one good reason

 

I must say most men hate nagging... Luckily my wife never does that, but then she goes to other extreme: doesn't talk at all! One example: a month ago she decided to work extra hours ans she went ahead with her decision without telling me! I wasn't pleased - it affects me a great deal, since I end up doing extra child care when she is at work (I work from home). This makes MY work extremely difficult. I didn't say anything, but I was mighty pissed off, since she knows how I hate this lack of communication. Why does she behave like that?

 

Am I being unreasonable? xxoo, you are a fairly logical person ... if your husband did that to you, how would you feel?

[StoneCold]

That never happens. Where does a person live where it is permissible to chain their spouse to the wall?

 

When I left my ex, it was difficult financially, but it was for the best - for me AND our son. The last fight we had, I took one look at my son's face (he was 5) and thought "Never again. No more of this." My ex was great at snowing me into believing he was for the greater good - until the ring went on. Then the selfishness was absolutely out of proportion, even toward our son. It was disgusting. It made me think of him as some kind of insidious worm, crawling around sucking the life out of everyone in the family unit for his own benefit. And his mother was an absolute enabler. She only cemented the idea that he should get whatever he wanted whenever he wanted to the exclusion of all else. So I did what I had to do. Our son is now a very emotionally healthy 17 year old with a LOT of great friends, many of which who go to him for advice or just a shoulder. Yes, it was hard financially and logistically, but it was best for all concerned.

 

Since then, my ex has grown up quite a bit and, in fact, called me and said some very nice things about how I've raised our son and told me he now sees the error of his ways back then and is sorry for having ruined our R. I'm happy for him. He might actually have a decent R with someone now that he's seen the light.

 

 

Its not that Turtles or myself is saying you CAN'T ever leave. Of course you can...but its a process that you do when you are ready.

 

I'm sure you had your process too....I'm sure you didnt just up and say "seeya I'm out.....lates" just like that

[xxoo]

I must say most men hate nagging... Luckily my wife never does that, but then she goes to other extreme: doesn't talk at all! One example: a month ago she decided to work extra hours ans she went ahead with her decision without telling me! I wasn't pleased - it affects me a great deal, since I end up doing extra child care when she is at work (I work from home). This makes MY work extremely difficult. I didn't say anything, but I was mighty pissed off, since she knows how I hate this lack of communication. Why does she behave like that?

 

Am I being unreasonable? xxoo, you are a fairly logical person ... if your husband did that to you, how would you feel?

 

I'd be livid

 

And this is a huge "trigger" issue for me, as I've been the predominantly "at home" parent for many years, and sometimes it feels like he has more freedoms than me, while I'm tied to the house and kids more.

 

But we do talk, and I try to assume the best of him (his intentions are good), and I recognize that I am part of the problem (not insisting on enough time for myself, waiting until I am completely overwhelmed to speak up), and we've come up with a lot of good solutions over the years, as needed. Still, there have been more fights over this topic than any other since becoming parents! It still comes up every few months, and we readjust as necessary.

[giotto]

I'd be livid

 

And this is a huge "trigger" issue for me, as I've been the predominantly "at home" parent for many years, and sometimes it feels like he has more freedoms than me, while I'm tied to the house and kids more.

 

But we do talk, and I try to assume the best of him (his intentions are good), and I recognize that I am part of the problem (not insisting on enough time for myself, waiting until I am completely overwhelmed to speak up), and we've come up with a lot of good solutions over the years, as needed. Still, there have been more fights over this topic than any other since becoming parents! It still comes up every few months, and we readjust as necessary.

 

thanks, xxoo... she has the "gift" of making me feel like my work is not as important (I work from home), but I earn 3x as much, so I would say it's fairly important... It's been a bone of contention for many years. I was even doing 1 full day of child care (i.e. having the toddler at home) at one point and was working at same time. She even had the cheek to tell me that I wasn't "man enough" many years ago, I suppose because I was working from home and doing childcare. I'm still doing this (although the children are older) every week-end and summer holidays when she is at work. Still, she chooses not to inform me. I got to the point in the past when I thought I was going to get a nervous breakdown because of the stress. They all go to school now, but it's still up to me to sort them out when she is at work or in bed (which is quite often). I end up working 50 hours a day. But enough with the ranting and the OT!

[StoneCold]

It's a process to finally get to the point where you decide you have to leave. But prior to reaching my breaking point, I didn't do ANYTHING that could have the effect of completely ruining our R such as engaging in an A. Up to that point I did everything I could think of to get him to see that everyone in the family unit needed to be considered, including himself sure, but not ONLY him. Nothing worked. It was always ALL about him.

 

Once I finally reached the point where I decided there was nothing left to salvage, yes - I told him I had decided to end things. Immediately. I didn't need to do any behind his back sneaking around, or try to manipulate bank accounts. I was determined, though, to come out of that divorce with the best I could do. I was, after all, the one with the good credit rating and the better job when we got M'd, and I was the one who took care of nearly all our son's needs in terms of doctor appointments, school meetings, etc. I knew I was the "adult" where caring for our son and managing finances was concerned. He tried to make it difficult, but fortunately I'm smarter than he is.

 

No, it wasn't easy, but it was the right thing to do. The right things are usually the more difficult things.

 

 

If thats how you choose to handle you're situations...fine; thats your prerogative.....if it helps you sleep at night...good for you.

 

You say that you didnt do anything to complete destroy the R like have an A. But I would argue that it was quite possible that your R was completely destroyed already. Are you with him right now? no.

 

Look, I've been on both sides of the fence. You know I've cheated but I have actually been cheated on in a past lifetime as well...a few times actually. There was once a time actually when I was no different than SOME of you where I was never the type to cheat (beleive it or not); not a blind fanatic like many of you but I still would never have done it.......and actually didnt. And after beining cheated on in failing relationships while I sat there holding a candle and my dick...I realized (sooner than later...thank god) that all that dogmatic "goodie goodie" fluffy talk was just that...talk. It didnt do anything for me. It didnt make me feel righteous, or like "I'm up there and shes down there", or morally "right". You know how I felt? I felt like a short end of the stick goof plain and simple. Here I am buying into fluffy crap that really is just smoke and mirrors, holding a candle, putting myself on hold, missing out on experiences and opportunities for something thats going nowhere while the other party just has fun and for what? I'm not with them anymore...I didnt feel any better about myself (actually I felt WORSE)...we all moved on.

 

So I dont buy into that anymore and I'm ultimately doing me from now on... I wont be unnecessarily reckless about it, I dont go out of my way to screw people, I'll always err on the side of prundence and I'll keep perspective....but ultimately I'm doing me because when the **** hits the fan...its you and your azz nobody else

Edited August 18, 2011 by StoneCold

[StoneCold]

RE: the bolded - Why do you have to say things as if they are an insult? I just don't get it.

 

It cvould be because you are overly sensitve

 

Like I said, the RIGHT things are usually the more difficult. Some of us can handle it. Some can't.

 

C'est la vie

 

Just because its "right" that doesnt mean its to be handled lighlty or in haphazzard manner./

 

I think before I act

[giotto]

so, is it possible to have an affair without ruining/destroying the relationship?

[Woggle]

I know that it is a very unhealthy dynamic but it is a very common one. I have known over the years more than a few men who were afraid to go home because they knew they would get it from their wives over nothing. It could have been about something she saw on daytime talk tv that day which had nothing to do with him. I am not kidding about that. I admit that women go through the same thing as well.

 

My point is that if somebody is not willing to discuss things rationally and at least attempt to see both sides unless it is a clear wrong like abuse or cheating then it is pointless to discuss it with them. When somebody just wants to throw their resentment at you and run down a list of all the things wrong with why stand their and listen?

[Woggle]

No one should live that way. I'd put a stop to that R in a heartbeat.

 

I stayed in that kind of marriage for way too long and her actions afterward showed everybody how crazy she actually is.

[Turtles]

That never happens. Where does a person live where it is permissible to chain their spouse to the wall?

 

When I left my ex, it was difficult financially, but it was for the best - for me AND our son. The last fight we had, I took one look at my son's face (he was 5) and thought "Never again. No more of this." My ex was great at snowing me into believing he was for the greater good - until the ring went on. Then the selfishness was absolutely out of proportion, even toward our son. It was disgusting. It made me think of him as some kind of insidious worm, crawling around sucking the life out of everyone in the family unit for his own benefit. And his mother was an absolute enabler. She only cemented the idea that he should get whatever he wanted whenever he wanted to the exclusion of all else. So I did what I had to do. Our son is now a very emotionally healthy 17 year old with a LOT of great friends, many of which who go to him for advice or just a shoulder. Yes, it was hard financially and logistically, but it was best for all concerned.

 

Since then, my ex has grown up quite a bit and, in fact, called me and said some very nice things about how I've raised our son and told me he now sees the error of his ways back then and is sorry for having ruined our R. I'm happy for him. He might actually have a decent R with someone now that he's seen the light.

 

Of course it's always physically possible.

 

But there could be many pressures that make it impractical. For example leaving the mother of your child would almost always mean losing custody. There's a house to sell, quite possibly with a negative equity value in this economy. Or there could be a political or religious career at stake. Or the spouse could be disabled or sick, with you having a moral obligation to care for them. Or your religion could be against it (though I reckon it would be against adultery too in that case!). Or it could be a small community where you would be ostracized for leaving.

 

Oh, there is always a way to work around those things, if you really have to. But if the situation is not downright physically abusive there could be a lot you can take before it starts weighing heavier than bankruptcy, losing your career, your friends and / or leaving your child.

[Turtles]

Like I said, doing the right thing is often doing the difficult thing.

 

Well, you certainly have a point there

 

And sometimes finding what the right thing is is just as difficult!

[dreamingoftigers]

Men can fight wars because we are fighting the enemy. We don't love them but we do love our wives and don't wish to go to war with them. Men want home to be a peaceful and when we have a nagging woman who insists and starting small wars over the dumbest reasons it feels anything but peaceful. That is why many men have the man cave or retreat into our hobbies or in some extreme cases retreat into porn. We are trying to create that peaceful place that we don't get at home.

 

If there is one thing men hate is going around in circles and circles and not getting anywhere. That is what arguing with women feels like. It's endless drama with no solution in sight and when we do everything they ask for they still aren't happy. After this men assume she is unpleasable and simply leaves her alone.

 

This makes perfect sense. It really does, thank you for explaining it. I knew the hormonal reaction in men to shame was the release of cortisol but I had never heard it explained in emotional terms.

 

I think for is it is hard to separate the function from the feelings attached to it. As in: often a functional problem will have an emotional meaning (I.e. If we really want the kitchen painted and HE keeps saying that we can't afford it but buys a brand new Bar-B-cue, AND won't even listen to us complain about it because he's embarrassed that he did that. It shows us that our husband may not care about us period. It's such a small thing but if we feel like a guy won't even do the smallest things and figures he can shut us up by buying flowers in a few days, we feel marginalized. It is hard to see that it is "just a small thing, you are making too much of this.")

 

3 small things will pack the punch of 2 big things almost every time. And they are usually cheaper and require less effort.