The Affair Boat

[dreamingoftigers]

Now I'm confused, DOT....is there really a "code" women are using? Intentionally?

 

I have no code. I don't intentionally complicate things. But my emotions are complicated, and sometimes it takes more than one go at a discussion for ME to understand why I am so upset about xyz. I can't be more direct if I haven't yet talked it through.

 

Incredibly important point: I (women?) work through emotions by talking them through. I understand my own emotional reactions better by talking them through. When my H is willing to listen to me and stick with me through that process, it makes me feel closer to him.

 

I'm feeling closer to ya'll just talking this through right now

 

I think I responded to this post.

 

No there isn't an intentional code. At all. But to men when they hear it, it must look like it.

[dreamingoftigers]

Why does she do that?...god knows

 

So let me ask you... give me one good reason why someone would do that after they were specifically told that you dont like being spoken to in that manner and as a result will not respond well....one good reason for nagging one to death, nit picking insignificant things (she even acknowledges this from time to time and notes the poor reaction she gets )...one good reason

 

The same reason any of us do what doesn't work: habit and stress!

 

When men stress, they emotionally overload and take a break to regroup. Sometimes that means watching tv, doing something around the house etc. Whatever means to distract you until your testosterone levels go up. When that time gets disrupted there is usually an angry reaction because you are already overloaded.

 

Women destress differently "tend or befriend." we try to talk things out or cry them out or complain etc. Until SOMEONE understands. We vent outwardly to relieve our stress, often. Feeling understood or at the very least listened to kn some level. It boosts our oxytocin levels. Historically we would have to communicate with other members of our community in case we were short of resources for our children, under attack or threat etc. If we didn't communicate outwardly that stress would incubate until we did. Back then it was life or death.

 

So during stress men need a break and women want to feel heard and understood, even if we get to the point of shouting. Mismanaged conflict often leads to the man feeling trapped and worse off and the women feeling even more stressed and really pissy. Not good.

 

When we as people hit that stress overload, "why" and "the best course of action" mean very little to us. When reasoning and emotions are overloaded, that only leaves the brain one place to go: the amygdala, responsible for primal urges. We become like apes dukeing it out.

[dreamingoftigers]

Right on the $$$$. That is exactly how he acts. He still emotionally-short circuits, but is getting better. It's funny how we have to hear and take blame, but they cannot handle it ugh, it is so not a 2 way street.

 

Oh and meant to add, yes a serial cheater as well.

 

Yes, serial cheaters tend to have ridiculously short emotional fuses and very little internal locus of control. Similar to narcissism. Tbh, narcissism is spectral, we all have some of it.

 

Serial cheaters tend to see the outside influences just smacking into them at the speed of light so they use cheating to both avoid the issues and deaden the feelings. Two birds, one stone.

[giotto]

there are also lots of men who keep doing all the little things to keep the marriage alive, but get nowhere, because the wife is not interested anymore (and we are supposed to "know"). Then we are seen as too needy, weak and in need of manning up/growing a pair of balls. We can never win. Striking the half alfa male/half beta male balance for a man is simply a nightmare... trust me, when you are putting all your life and soul into the relationship and you are never good enough, then you might start looking elsewhere.

[dreamingoftigers]

there are also lots of men who keep doing all the little things to keep the marriage alive, but get nowhere, because the wife is not interested anymore (and we are supposed to "know"). Then we are seen as too needy, weak and in need of manning up/growing a pair of balls. We can never win. Striking the half alfa male/half beta male balance for a man is simply a nightmare... trust me, when you are putting all your life and soul into the relationship and you are never good enough, then you might start looking elsewhere.

 

Oh, I hear you. I would say that when you have hit impossible standards and it is literally you having tried everything that you know to do, 180.

 

Go for something akin to a 180.

 

Like every other part of life, you cannot do EVERYTHING for someone and expect nothing in return. If what you are doing has gone on for months and has not changed anything one iota. Then do something else.

 

If you are doing everything, then change that. Back off, change your routine. Spend a little more on yourself. Don't allow your spouse to be so dependent on you. But still be friendly and kind and open to them.

 

Sexual issues are the number one most frustrating I think.

 

Your happiness cannot be contingent on your wife's reaction to you. But if you are not leaving at this juncture, then cheating is not an option if you have a certain moral conviction.

 

What tells you that she is no longer interested? Or is it that she is complacent?

 

There is also a few physiological factors and one brain function issue that I am aware of that would affect female libido.

[dreamingoftigers]

Of course we all have boundaries and limits.

[giotto]

Oh, I hear you. I would say that when you have hit impossible standards and it is literally you having tried everything that you know to do, 180.

 

Go for something akin to a 180.

 

Like every other part of life, you cannot do EVERYTHING for someone and expect nothing in return. If what you are doing has gone on for months and has not changed anything one iota. Then do something else.

 

If you are doing everything, then change that. Back off, change your routine. Spend a little more on yourself. Don't allow your spouse to be so dependent on you. But still be friendly and kind and open to them.

 

Sexual issues are the number one most frustrating I think.

 

Your happiness cannot be contingent on your wife's reaction to you. But if you are not leaving at this juncture, then cheating is not an option if you have a certain moral conviction.

 

What tells you that she is no longer interested? Or is it that she is complacent?

 

There is also a few physiological factors and one brain function issue that I am aware of that would affect female libido.

 

Yes, DoT, but doing a 180° would generate an impossible atmosphere in the household and when there are children to look after, it's just not feasible.

 

I won't cheat, because I still care about my wife and I don't want to see her hurt. I've met many awful, chauvinistic, rude and gross men in my life and still these men have a lovely wife who cooks them meals and makes love to them every night. They go play golf and don't give a flying f*** about the rest... there's the wife in charge of that. Maybe I should turn into one of those... who probably have a mistress, anyway...

[Woggle]

Yes, DoT, but doing a 180° would generate an impossible atmosphere in the household and when there are children to look after, it's just not feasible.

 

I won't cheat, because I still care about my wife and I don't want to see her hurt. I've met many awful, chauvinistic, rude and gross men in my life and still these men have a lovely wife who cooks them meals and makes love to them every night. They go play golf and don't give a flying f*** about the rest... there's the wife in charge of that. Maybe I should turn into one of those... who probably have a mistress, anyway...

 

The sad thing is that from what I see these men seem to have wives who bend over backwards for them. They are treated like kings while the men who try their best to be an equal and loving partner seem to get crapped on. It seems that the more you try to please a woman the less you succeed at doing it.

[giotto]

The sad thing is that from what I see these men seem to have wives who bend over backwards for them. They are treated like kings while the men who try their best to be an equal and loving partner seem to get crapped on. It seems that the more you try to please a woman the less you succeed at doing it.

 

well, that's my experience too and I've come to the conclusion that by doing that you get somewhat emasculated and lose the "man appeal" (see my post about child care and working from home)... as I said before, for a (intelligent) man it's very difficult to strike the right balance... I obviously failed!

[Woggle]

well, that's my experience too and I've come to the conclusion that by doing that you get somewhat emasculated and lose the "man appeal" (see my post about child care and working from home)... as I said before, for a (intelligent) man it's very difficult to strike the right balance... I obviously failed!

 

I find that treating your wife as an equal but refusing to hand over your balls is the best way to go. My wife and I have an equal relationship and that fact isn't even an issue. It's just assumed we are equal partners and there are no power struggles. At the same time she knows I don't put up with crap because I was a doormat once in a relationship and I will never be one again.

[giotto]

I find that treating your wife as an equal but refusing to hand over your balls is the best way to go. My wife and I have an equal relationship and that fact isn't even an issue. It's just assumed we are equal partners and there are no power struggles. At the same time she knows I don't put up with crap because I was a doormat once in a relationship and I will never be one again.

 

well, we treat each other as equal - or we are supposed to. The fact is, I'm a very tolerant and accommodating person and this is actually a bad trait in a man, I've found out. People take advantage of you. I'm not a doormat anymore (well, as far as it's possible without disintegrating the family), but I have been and it's been one of my gravest mistakes...

[Kitsune77]

That is so funny , DOT.

 

I think the war would end quickly, especially if you timed it with PMT:))

 

Wow, trying to fill the void much? LOL.

 

No we are not complicated. You are slow. Ha ha.

 

We are actually not anywhere near as complicated as men would like to believe we are. We just don't think the same way, but once you crack the code it is easy street.

 

Guys just don't crack the code very often because patience isn't your strong suit.

 

And you guys actually overload emotionally (thanks to cortisol) far more easily.

 

I always thought it was funny how guys historically could go out, fight wars, plow a field all day, lift heavy stuff, chop off other people's arms and stuff or get their arms chopped off, do hard labor and be just fine.

 

Then go home to their wives who are 50 lbs less then them and a lot tinier and all she has to say is, "we need to talk. You don't appreciate me."

 

And all of a sudden Super-Man has been hit with his Kryptonite.

 

I really think that if the US was serious about winning it's wars, they would train women to go over and tell the Al-Qaeda men how they never do anything right, they could've got more casualties then that, and how they are such a disappointment. Al-Qaeda would quit and go home in no time.

 

In Iraq, they could set up speakers of women sharing their feelings non-stop and play Romantic Comedies on the palace walls until the Iraqi men begged the siege to end. 2 weeks max.

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[StoneCold]

The sad thing is that from what I see these men seem to have wives who bend over backwards for them. They are treated like kings while the men who try their best to be an equal and loving partner seem to get crapped on. It seems that the more you try to please a woman the less you succeed at doing it.

 

 

well, that's my experience too and I've come to the conclusion that by doing that you get somewhat emasculated and lose the "man appeal" (see my post about child care and working from home)... as I said before, for a (intelligent) man it's very difficult to strike the right balance... I obviously failed!

 

 

But guys I was getting at that a few pages ago. I realize my message may have been lost because you dont agree with my methods... but ultimately the point was..

 

Do YOU...

 

You play this game their way and you will lose. I've seen it happen too many times.

 

How many times?...How many guys do I know... they let their wives run their life, they are bending over backward for them, their balls are rolling around in their prada purse somewhere between the tampons and the lipstick. You look at these guys and their soul is just gone; utterly immasculated. They are like the walking dead. You want to cry for them but they are so unremarkable you forget them the second you pass them. These poor souls will also likely get cheated on because: A) Women want a man not an immasculated facsimile of one and B) some guy with the killer instinct we were meant to have (but this poor soul lost)will come along and snipe this girl so fast she wouldnt realize what happened till his dick winds up in her mouth...and ladies...dont underestimate these guys you are emotional creatures....you have buttons and if pressed properly at the right time you are at risk.

 

Opt out guys... do you

[Woggle]

But, Woggle, I am betting your wife isn't the kind of gal to even WANT your balls. She wouldn't WANT "power" in your R. I'm betting she would find that pretty much the same way I would. I've said this before on LS that a guy wanted to get with me prior to my sweetheart. He's a wonderful person, but I knew he'd let me walk all over him if I wanted. SO not attractive. My man is good and kind, considerate, thoughtful of all, but would not allow anyone to control or use him.

 

I agree. It is very refreshing to have a relationship where it is not a power struggle. You mentioned that in the start your SO would assume your intentions were bad and while that is wrong I understand it. Men are so used to walking on eggshells in relationships and having everything we say and do used against us that when we finally do find a woman that wants a healthy relationship it takes some adjusting. I was like that in the early days with my wife.

[Woggle]

And because I knew where those assumptions were coming from, and I knew he was SUCH a good man, I was willing to work through the issues with him. It was well worth it.

 

He is a lucky man.

[xxoo]

No one wants to watch someone they care about become a doormat, or tolerate abuse. I think we've all seen it happen, if not lived it ourselves.

 

But there is also risk at the other end of the spectrum--of becoming so guarded and defensive that it amounts to relationship sabotage. If your relationship philosophy is "Every man for himself!"....don't be surprised if you end up by yourself.

 

Happy relationships reside in the reasonable middle ground

[Woggle]

No one wants to watch someone they care about become a doormat, or tolerate abuse. I think we've all seen it happen, if not lived it ourselves.

 

But there is also risk at the other end of the spectrum--of becoming so guarded and defensive that it amounts to relationship sabotage. If your relationship philosophy is "Every man for himself!"....don't be surprised if you end up by yourself.

 

Happy relationships reside in the reasonable middle ground

 

This goes both ways. There are women who have walls so thick that any man that tries to cross them will get his head bitten off.

[dreamingoftigers]

No one wants to watch someone they care about become a doormat, or tolerate abuse. I think we've all seen it happen, if not lived it ourselves.

 

But there is also risk at the other end of the spectrum--of becoming so guarded and defensive that it amounts to relationship sabotage. If your relationship philosophy is "Every man for himself!"....don't be surprised if you end up by yourself.

 

Happy relationships reside in the reasonable middle ground

 

Thank you so much for posting this. We are of the same opinion.

 

Since covering one end of the spectrum off, I hope to be back later today and post up a little about healthy boundaries :-)

[xxoo]

This goes both ways. There are women who have walls so thick that any man that tries to cross them will get his head bitten off.

 

Yes, I agree. I used the expression, but didn't literally mean only men. People.

[StoneCold]

Happy relationships reside in the reasonable middle ground

 

 

Problem is that middle ground is so thin its a tight rope walk.... thats almost too much pressure to have to come home to...and as a result...many fall

[xxoo]

Problem is that middle ground is so thin its a tight rope walk.... thats almost too much pressure to have to come home to...and as a result...many fall

 

It really isn't when a couple is relating well. Good feelings create more leeway. Bad feelings do the opposite.

 

I can assure you that things are happy and relaxed between me and my H. Our growing kids can create tension and drama--and there are parallels there. When I get my back up, things break down. When I try to see things from their perspective, assume the best, and respect their point of view (even if I don't agree with it), we can usually come to mutual understanding--AND they are more willing to respect my point of view (even if they don't agree with it).

[StoneCold]

Well, you might as well just throw in the towel then, eh? I mean, if you've already pre-determined that a happy relationship is impossible...

 

 

A happy relationship as we traditionally define it in this day and age?... yes.... I do find it very flawed and so do many others...apparently...the numbers dont lie

Edited August 19, 2011 by StoneCold

[Woggle]

I completely get what he says about the tightrope walk. The thing is that most men hate drama. We love home to be a place of peace but sadly there are some women who get bored with too much peace and stability so men try to provide the right amount of drama without driving ourselves nuts and sometimes it just doesn't seem worth it.

 

Relationships like my own and Donnamaybe's are very rare and becoming increasingly rare as women's taste for drama seems to be increasing these days. It's why myself and her SO took so long to warm up to the fact that they actually did find a woman who wants a healthy relationship.

[mzdolphin]

Interesting thread. The guy I had an affair with (he lied about being divorced at first) was an old flame. We had dated 20 years ago and I broke it off because I was young, career, etc.

 

Anyway, when discussing why, he said he had gone over it with his best friend who told him it that he couldn't understand how he could have more in common with and more fun with a woman who wasn't his wife.

 

And of course the sex was really good.

 

He still emails, calls occasionally and professes his love for me. But he is still married. He does not bad mouth his wife. And admits they do have sex, although not as much as he would like. I think another issue is that when they started dating he was 34 and she was 41. That was probably not a big deal then. I was 25. Twenty years later he is a very active 54-year-old and she is not as active at 61. I'm a very active 45-year-old. In fact went spent as much time playing tennis and at the golf range as we did in bed during our affair.