online dating and the paradox of choice

[Casablanca]

I don't have sour grapes since my expectations weren't high to begin with. I find the topic interesting because I'm interested in cultural trends and I think online dating reflects a disturbing shift in our culture.

That could easily be applied to just about anything in life....there are people who use OLD just for hookups...guess what that happens at bars too...there are people who use OLD to meet people who are looking for a relationship...that happens in bars, churches, social events, etc....and there are people who use OLD who have a hard time getting at of the house (may have a kid, work couple jobs, in school, work nights and weekends, etc)

[sm1tten]

There are a lot of smart, successful, confident, kind, good-looking people using online dating. There are also a lot of nitwitted, loser, mean-spirited, ugmos. So what? People who think of online dating as mechanized, disturbing, full of bottom-feeders and desperate types aren't ever going to find what they're looking for ONLINE. And, crazy as it might seem, some people who date online DO have options in real life. Widening the net can never be bad, at least in my opinion.

 

What confuses me about you, t_c, is that you met your... whatever you're calling him, online. Not online dating - if I recall correctly, you met in a forum - buy what I'm saying is that if you're a person who can meet someone online and have deep feelings for them and vice versa, how are you and that person really different from people who are online dating? Do you think that because you weren't actively searching on a dating site that you are an exception?

[Casablanca]

Widening the net can never be bad, at least in my opinion.

This is how I look out it....got a date with a girl I met online and got a number from a friend's wedding this past wedding, been playing phone tag though with her...so right now I have two girls I'm talking too instead of one had I not ventured online.

[torn_curtain]

There are a lot of smart, successful, confident, kind, good-looking people using online dating. There are also a lot of nitwitted, loser, mean-spirited, ugmos. So what? People who think of online dating as mechanized, disturbing, full of bottom-feeders and desperate types aren't ever going to find what they're looking for ONLINE. And, crazy as it might seem, some people who date online DO have options in real life. Widening the net can never be bad, at least in my opinion.

 

What confuses me about you, t_c, is that you met your... whatever you're calling him, online. Not online dating - if I recall correctly, you met in a forum - buy what I'm saying is that if you're a person who can meet someone online and have deep feelings for them and vice versa, how are you and that person really different from people who are online dating? Do you think that because you weren't actively searching on a dating site that you are an exception?

 

Yes, actually, that is an important difference. Neither of us was looking for a relationship, and we didn't meet on a dating site. We just happened to start talking about a common interest and things evolved from there. I'm not sure what developing deep feelings has to do with it. I think people can develop deep feelings who have met on dating sites, but I also think men who do online dating are more prone to commitment phobia and grass-is-greener syndrome because they feel like they have endless options, especially in a large city.

 

As I wrote earlier there's a greater range of women who do online dating for whatever reason, and I know some desirable women who have profiles up. But in my experience the guys are of lower quality. Not sure why. I don't have the biggest sample size but none of the attractive guys I know do online dating. The guys I know who do it all have some sort of catch -- whether it's commitment phobia, unassertiveness, extreme neediness, infidelity. I also wasn't impressed when I looked at the profiles of my matches on OKC. Maybe I'm wrong; that's just been my experience.

Edited August 17, 2011 by torn_curtain

[torn_curtain]

Anyway, this is getting sort of off topic. Anyone have any responses to the New Yorker article and how the paradox of choice applies to online dating?

[ThsAmericanLife]

The bottom line for me is that when I imagine the type of guy I want to be with and ask myself would he sign up for OKCupid, the answer is immediately no. He's the kind of guy who would distrust online dating and see the whole principle behind it as mechanical and creepy. He would also be a free thinker who didn't fall in easily with trends. He would also be private. He would find summing himself up in a short blurb silly and distasteful, and not because he was incapable of describing himself or a bad writer. He also wouldn't be desperate to find a girlfriend and most definitely not prowling for sex online. He would have plenty of options in real life, and while he might want to find a SO eventually he would be quite comfortable being single for long periods.

 

The only way I can imagine my kind of guy signing up for a site like OKCupid was if it became so much the norm that EVERYONE had a profile up, and it would seem totally antiquated and actually interfere with his life not to (like resisting using a cell phone). Or maybe if all his friends were doing it and kept pushing him he might put up a profile for like a few weeks but then take it down once he realized it wasn't for him. I would especially be wary of a guy who put a lot of time into polishing his profile.

 

When I think of all the desirable guys I know -- and by desirable I mean smart, successful, kind, confident, good looking -- none of them have an OKC profile or ever would. I think this explains why I had so much trouble finding anyone who looked enticing when I was on the site.

 

I guess I know some tech-y guys who are very introverted and spend all their time on their computers who signed up for the site. But I'm not attracted to absent-minded professor types.

 

I actually agree with just about everything you said here... the kind of guy I want to attract may or may not have spent some time on OKC or other dating sites, but ultimately found it skeevy like I did and left.

 

The highest quality men I know never set foot on dating sites. When I ask myself the question 'would I date me'... I have to admit the answer is 'no' if it considers current involvement in online dating sites.

 

My offline, local network is actually pretty big... which is yet another indicator that I REALLY need to get out of this crappy town and build some new connections in places with more options. When my best 'option' is to be the other woman with my city's Mayor (yes, that was one offer on the table) or FWB for men with girls in three states... it is also time to go.

 

I also agree that OLD is having a very corrosive effect on dating in general. I'm basically 'friendzoning' every man I meet now after my experience with online dating... because I got so sick of just about every man I met there trying to cop a feel or something like it on the first date. THAT is the new normal, apparently.

[ThsAmericanLife]

back to the topic... yes, the paradox of choice.

 

The appearance of having more options than one really has. OLD is pretty bad for that. When I look at my most basic options within a 50 mile radius of where I live, I came up with very few... and I agree... the men seem to be of lower quality.

 

FYI... according to the article someone posted here recently, none of the founders of OKC found their spouses online.

 

I've hung onto a couple of 'friends' I've met there.. but I suspect they'll end up being the Facebook people I rarely or never talk to soon enough. Interestingly, it was these guys who insisted on being 'friended' on Facebook within the first few dates. That is something I won't do in the future either. At least they aren't plastering stuff all over my wall.

 

For now, I just take them out of posts I put up and delete them from my News Feed. Banned to the Facebook closet.

 

Facebook. There is another one. Another replacement for actual human interaction. What is the world coming to??

[Imajerk17]

You know, it could be said that the "highest quality" single guys/girls don't spend a lot of time in bars. Bars are not my thing, personally. Where does that lead someone looking for a relationship:

 

--Circle of friends. Well, once you reach a certain age, more and more of your friends are paired off.

 

--Activities. Well, if you're a guy, you can try yoga class. But aren't those the type of guys (the ones actively looking) that women don't want in their classes? You're there to work out and he's checking you out during your "downward dog". Besides, in a smaller town most of the women even there are in relationships.

 

--Random encounters. I myself approach women in the grocery store whenever I can. I've gotten dates that way. But it's not a great way to meet women, at least in the town I live in. There is a girl without a ring on her finger whom I'm physically attracted to, AND who isn't jailbait (i.e., too young) once every third or fourth visit. And even then she either has a boyfriend or often isn't interested. OR after talking to her for 5 minutes, it's clear we don't have much in common. She's a random stranger!

 

So that leaves us with online.

 

 

***************************

Anyway, to get to your question, I've seen many a woman online for over a year. Surely out of all the guys who has written her, at least a couple, probably a lot more, are "boyfriend" material. There are probably several guys she has been in contact with whom, she would be happily coupled up with, if she had met through "real life" that is. And yet, she is still online, still looking (to the best of my knowledge). So yes, I say it is the paradox of choice.

 

Look at it this way: Why didn't she end up with at least one of these guys? Who knows, maybe she did meet up with a few of them and wasn't blown away on the first date with any of them. And because each time she came home to 15 new messages in her inbox, didn't bother going out with any of them again. Hey, if the first date didn't go great, why would you be looking forward to going out with the guy again if you have all these new prospects coming in? In the "olden days" (say 10--15 years ago, when the only way for her to meet men was in real life) she would have given things another date, because who knows when a guy is going to approach her and ask for her number again?

 

As for us guys, I don't think the paradox of choice holds so much. Unless we live somewhere like New York City, that is, where there are a lot more single women, and they way outnumber single men. As for myself, getting a woman online to meet up takes enough effort for me so that I tend to make each date/prospect count.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Imajerk17

[Star Gazer]

The highest quality men I know never set foot on dating sites.

 

And how exactly do you know this?

 

With your obvious negative judgmental attitude, do you think they'd ever admit it to you???

[FitChick]

I tried OKC briefly and found the quality lacking plus it skewed young. Too many kids looking for The Cougar Experience. The men my age were seldom attractive or successful, although I did hear from a musician from a rather famous rock band. He was totally my physical type and well educated but was used to women offering sex at every turn, so he was as emotionally stunted as many young guys on this website.

 

The problem in my experience lies with the free sites. Losers have nothing to lose. Why pay money to be rejected? Men who are less likely to be rejected because of appearance, education, personality, or income join the paid sites and those are the sites I join as well. Perhaps I've been luckier than most women but online dating works better for me. I never had much of a social life when I was younger, pre-online dating but as the saying goes, "Life begins at 40" and that has proven true for me.

[ThsAmericanLife]

And how exactly do you know this?

 

With your obvious negative judgmental attitude, do you think they'd ever admit it to you???

 

I'm a good listener, believe it or not. I don't share my thoughts about it with them.

 

I've also met their (now) wives... they met either at work or through clubs, political events, etc that I'm familiar with. I've recently considered changing my rules about dating men I work with (employers are a great filter to get rid of the run of the mill losers)... I'm also very active in my community...

 

and have come to the conclusion that alot of men don't really have a volunteer spirit. It is almost always women. At least around here. Again, 'small' town...

[ThsAmericanLife]

When someone invents a paid site that has background checks and pre-answered questions that I get to look at (like OKC) before agreeing to contact them... I'll reconsider it.

 

I tried the paid sites too for a while. People lie all the time there too. One of the most disgusting men I've ever met in person (a co-worker) met his current wife on E-harmony. He tried to get me to have an affair with him... and told me some story about how he was currently cheating on his wife with a barely 18 yr old he met online. He really thought he was hot stuff.

 

My ex-boyfriend was stalked and harrassed by a woman he dated for TWO weeks from E-harmony.

 

Blech... not for me.

[zengirl]

FYI... according to the article someone posted here recently, none of the founders of OKC found their spouses online.

 

Did they claim they had?

 

I don't think dating online was always good, and I don't know when they met their spouses. I also don't think it's as equally good in all areas (I think people in metros do the best, overall, since in a smaller town or suburban community, you're more likely to know compatible people anyway---there's no way I could know every compatible person in my city even though I'm very social, and when I do meet guys from OKC -- like my current BF -- I've often found we had several social points in common; could we have met elsewhere? Possibly. But online gave us a way to come together directly) or for all age ranges (if you're over 35, I'd say it's not as likely to work---though my gram just married an elderly man she met on EHarmony awhile back).

 

And how exactly do you know this?

 

With your obvious negative judgmental attitude, do you think they'd ever admit it to you???

 

That's what I wonder. I think people who are biased against online dating are going to meet fewer lovely people who do it; for the most part, you get what you look for.

 

I tried OKC briefly and found the quality lacking plus it skewed young. Too many kids looking for The Cougar Experience. The men my age were seldom attractive or successful, although I did hear from a musician from a rather famous rock band. He was totally my physical type and well educated but was used to women offering sex at every turn, so he was as emotionally stunted as many young guys on this website.

 

The problem in my experience lies with the free sites. Losers have nothing to lose. Why pay money to be rejected? Men who are less likely to be rejected because of appearance, education, personality, or income join the paid sites and those are the sites I join as well. Perhaps I've been luckier than most women but online dating works better for me. I never had much of a social life when I was younger, pre-online dating but as the saying goes, "Life begins at 40" and that has proven true for me.

 

FTR, I think the quality on OKC drops off tremendously in the older years as well (I don't know if that will always be true). In my generation, I know lots of people who like OKC for the reason I do --- it culls for you (the %s, though I hear they've recently raised a lot of %s and kind of screwed it up; they'll likely fix it though, as they're a bunch of stats nerds running it and they're likely just constantly tweaking).

 

They'd pay for a dating website that did the same, but EHarmony is the only paid one that does and it doesn't like our kind: liberals, non-Christians, etc, plus I'll never use it because they once sent a nasty email to a gay friend of mine who tried to sign up. This was way back in the day, and I think they've gotten better, but they basically said outright they didn't want his kind on their site or to be involved in matching up gay men.

 

And I certainly don't disagree there are plenty of losers online, but there are plenty of losers in RL too. There are great guys in both places, and you get more of what you look for, wherever you're looking.

[zengirl]

Oh, and t__c, what happened to your claim of total open-mindedness to everyone else's style of dating?

[ThsAmericanLife]

That's what I wonder. I think people who are biased against online dating are going to meet fewer lovely people who do it; for the most part, you get what you look for.

 

It didn't start out that way... and I really wish I didn't feel this way. OLD can be very convenient.

 

Just my unfortunate observation... gained from lots of experiences both inside and outside.

 

When I make it to a different location, I'll likely reconsider and do my best to 'start from scratch'. I think there are alot of things I'm disliking because of the general lack of diversity of people here...

 

People who can do better... leave. Which is what I'm doing.... I will never go to work at a 'company town' or a 'university town' ever again. Too inbred.

[zengirl]

It didn't start out that way... and I really wish I didn't feel this way. OLD can be very convenient.

 

Just my unfortunate observation... gained from lots of experiences both inside and outside.

 

When I make it to a different location, I'll likely reconsider and do my best to 'start from scratch'. I think there are alot of things I'm disliking because of the general lack of diversity of people here...

 

People who can do better... leave. Which is what I'm doing.... I will never go to work at a 'company town' or a 'university town' ever again. Too inbred.

 

Yes, and FTR, I think that kind of place IS a bad place for OLD. Mostly because, as I said, everyone you'd really want to know, you probably could meet fairly easily through some other means. For someone like me, who moves a lot and lives primarily in metro areas, it's very different.

[tigressA]

Online dating gave me SO many options--too many, really. I had two different multi-dating escapades that I chronicled here on LS, and they both failed. It was only when I quit entertaining so many options at once and focused on one at a time or just got bored with it that I found relationships. I honestly think I was intoxicated by all the attention I was getting--wow, all these guys want to take me out! And they're all cute and fun and interesting! How can I say no to any of them? I didn't, and it came back to bite me later.

 

The best thing about it was that once a guy dropped off the radar never to be heard from again, I didn't care because there were always others. But I also took for granted a pretty solid connection awhile back because I thought I could do 'better'. The others were my fallback, so I didn't care to work on what I had. I ruined what could've been a great relationship and also eliminated any chance for a solid friendship. I learned an important lesson from that.

Edited August 17, 2011 by tigressA

[zengirl]

Online dating gave me SO many options--too many, really. I had two different multi-dating escapades that I chronicled here on LS, and they both failed. It was only when I quit entertaining so many options at once and focused on one at a time or just got bored with it that I found relationships. I honestly think I was intoxicated by all the attention I was getting--wow, all these guys want to take me out! And they're all cute and fun and interesting! How can I say no to any of them? I didn't, and it came back to bite me later.

 

The best thing about it was that once a guy dropped off the radar never to be heard from again, I didn't care because there were always others. But I also took for granted a pretty solid connection awhile back because I thought I could do 'better'. The others were my fallback, so I didn't care to work on what I had. I ruined what could've been a great relationship and also eliminated any chance for a solid friendship. I learned an important lesson from that.

 

I do think that not culling is a big issue in dating in general. I find I actually get MORE options in person than online (online I can more readily eliminate, but in person, when I'm single I meet promising guys all the time---I don't yet know all the reasons they're not promising).

 

I do think that most people normally don't meet lots of new people regularly (again, moving loads and being an expat gave me a "Meet new people all the time!" sort of natural state, even when living in the same town; I'm always bringing new people into my social circle), and perhaps that's a skill they don't learn until they approach online dating in some cases.

 

Players, though? The ones who are really able to land random women to have sex with them and want that stuff. They might BE online (why not? one more avenue), but they do better in person anyway from what I've noticed. It's way easier to be a player in a bar (a few drinks and a few hours) than online where people normally have some degree of natural caution. Granted, there are a lot of "You want to be a player but you can't" guys online, but they don't succeed there either. They just annoy lots of girls. I'm sure loads of those guys wrote me, but I don't really remember them; what I remember are the guys who were actually potentials that I focused on.

 

If you go on a site, don't see any potentially interesting guys, then: duh, leave. Why would you (universal you; not you, tigressA!) stay? But I don't understand dissing something wholly just because you tried it and it failed. When something fails, I prefer to look at what I could do differently and where I could find success (there or elsewhere), rather than blame the thing for being wrong. What you say tigressA is good: you gained insight into how you could best approach dating for more positive effects. And then you successfully applied that insight and met your current BF. That's awesome!

Edited August 17, 2011 by zengirl

[BetheButterfly]

I know online dating helps a lot of people, but I also find it sort of creepy because it reminds me of catalogue shopping. I think as a culture we have become burdened by an abundance of choices, and it makes us view people as more replaceable/disposable.

 

Wow so true

 

 

I have a few friends who have been getting all of their relationships through OKCupid over the last few years, and they never miss a beat. They'll find a SO through the site, date a few months, breakup, put their profile back up within a couple weeks, try out a few women and then pick out another girlfriend a couple of months later...repeat.

 

There's just something mechanical about it to me.

 

Agreed. I know people like that too. I think they are addicted to online dating...

[thatone]

When someone invents a paid site that has background checks and pre-answered questions that I get to look at (like OKC) before agreeing to contact them... I'll reconsider it.

 

I tried the paid sites too for a while. People lie all the time there too. One of the most disgusting men I've ever met in person (a co-worker) met his current wife on E-harmony. He tried to get me to have an affair with him... and told me some story about how he was currently cheating on his wife with a barely 18 yr old he met online. He really thought he was hot stuff.

 

My ex-boyfriend was stalked and harrassed by a woman he dated for TWO weeks from E-harmony.

 

Blech... not for me.

 

between the dating site and facebook it's incredibly easy to find out everything you need to know about people.

 

you failed to do so and are trying to pass blame, it's as simple as that.

 

and no, there is never going to be a perfect way for you to 'shop' for men.

[zengirl]

'Shop' is an interesting word, thatone.

 

I think anyone who treats dating like shopping --- online or elsewhere --- is bound to be disappointed and create a lot of dysfunction. To me, it's about connecting. I don't "shop" for friends; why would I "shop" for a mate?

 

(That said, I don't think every time someone says shop, they really MEAN it in the dysfunctional way.)

[FitChick]

I date online the way I used to in real life -- I observe, I listen carefully, I use my intelligence and intuition. If someone devious or broken manages to bypass those filters, as soon as I discover that, I end it immediately because I don't want to waste my time. I am not desperate. I learn from the experience and move on. I don't blame a computer database. We all have to take responsibility for our choices in life. Too many people play the victim card these days and have a pity party. NOT attractive.

[sm1tten]

I think I have more options online. I am looking to meet men who don't work with me, who are similarly educated, and aren't already part of my circle of friends. There are lots of people in this city, but it's hard to connect. I think I come across a wider variety of men online than I do offline, and I also think that because I date inter-racially, there's somehow less fear of rejection associated with online approaches (I don't use themed sites, either).

 

For me, I correspond with a few guys at a time, then I got on a couple of dates. I'm constantly culling people. I will exchange messages with say, five or six gentlemen-callers. Three of those will probably turn into first dates. Usually just one of those goes beyond that.

 

(also, t__c, I don't want to derail the thread further. But I want to say this: to me, meeting someone online, finding common ground through similar interests, and it developing into something is pretty much the point and essence of online dating. Maybe everyone isn't doing it that way, but that's what I think it's intended for.)

[torn_curtain]

Oh, and t__c, what happened to your claim of total open-mindedness to everyone else's style of dating?

 

Let's just say the type of guy I want to be with probably wouldn't be up on OKC, but that doesn't mean others couldn't find a good match for them. Everyone's definition of a quality man/woman differs as the discussion in this thread contests.

Edited August 17, 2011 by torn_curtain

[torn_curtain]

 

also, t__c, I don't want to derail the thread further. But I want to say this: to me, meeting someone online, finding common ground through similar interests, and it developing into something is pretty much the point and essence of online dating. Maybe everyone isn't doing it that way, but that's what I think it's intended for.

 

I agree with this, but don't you think there's an inherent selection bias in guys who sign up for OKC vs. guys who don't? When I was looking for matches on the site and found the selection was different from what I was encountering elsewhere, I realized this was probably the reason. Maybe online dating will reach a stage where EVERYONE has a profile up, like almost everyone these days has a facebook...but it's not there yet. And honestly I'd be sort of disturbed if that ever came to pass, because I think it would further encourage this window-shopping mentality to relationships that seems to be taking hold in our culture.