Is binge drinking in your mid 30s normal?

[Olive42]

I attempted to talk to my husband about his late night binge drinking, but it wasn't a very helpful discussion.

 

From stories and comments I have heard from his old friends (now our mutual friends) I know that he used to go out partying all the time...which isn't exactly my scene, but seemed fairly normal to me for a 20-something single man living in a city. I also did not have any firsthand knowledge of this type of partying, as by the time we met he had "calmed down" and this was not the norm for him anymore. Also, most of his friends married either prior to us meeting, or during our dating phase, and they rarely go out to bars.

 

After listening to him, my understanding was that my husband is some undefined negative emotion (resentful? upset? suffocated? angry?) that his life now (pretty much the whole time I have known him) involves working, caring for pets, doing home improvements and other normal life things that everyone has to do, and that our socializing is primarily housewarmings, weddings, engagement parties, soccer games, dinners, and other civilized events that it is not socially acceptable to stay out until 3am and get wasted at. Basically, in my world, this is what happens when you are an adult who has responsibilities. Yet my husband seems upset by this, and I am extremely disturbed that he apparently feels this way.

 

However, when I rephrased his words and repeated them back to him, he denied feeling that way or saying that. When I repeated back his exact words, asked him how else that could be interpreted, and told him that I find it very upsetting that he feels this way, he still denied it.

 

So we didn't get anywhere.

 

It's not normal for a 35 year old married man to behave this way is it? Am I just being uptight? I really don't know what to do. It's like he's having a midlife crisis or something...but we haven't been married very long at all! He's had plenty of "freedom." We both wanted to get married, and he is the one who wanted to have kids ASAP. I am the one who wanted to wait. He wanted to start trying the day we got married (and said he would be more than happy to start trying even before the wedding)...I held off at first because I wanted to just be married for at least one year first...and now he keeps insisting he wants children, but I absolutely don't feel like he's ready for them, that his actions prove that he is not ready, and that I would be stupid to put myself in a position where I am raising a child on my own while he plays and does what he wants and is irresponsible. We only have two dogs, but I already feel like he blames me/our marriage and our dogs (the responsibility) for ruining his life.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Olive42

[analystfromhell]

You're understandably upset but what is it that bothers you? Is it a lack of attention, is he drinking and driving, what is your definition of binge drinking and is it affecting the time he spends with you or the kids?

[Olive42]

You're understandably upset but what is it that bothers you? Is it a lack of attention, is he drinking and driving, what is your definition of binge drinking and is it affecting the time he spends with you or the kids?

 

Off the top of my head...this entire change, in and of itself, is what bothers me. Who is this person and where is this coming from? Because this is 100% new to me, and to our relationship. Yes, I hate the lack of attention. He does not drink and drive, since we live in a city and that's not something that we need to worry about (fortunately). Binge drinking...I am not with him, so I don't know exactly how much he drinks...but from experience (how drunk I have seen him in the past, versus how drunk I see him now), things that he has said, and the occasional receipt I find when I'm doing laundry...he has at least 15 drinks when he goes out. He comes home so wasted that he blacks out, and the next day can't get out of bed for the entire day, and still feels like **** the following day.

 

Oh, and we do not have children yet (thank GOD), just 2 dogs.

 

And, another thing that bothers me, is the money he spends on going out to bars. It's not like we're strapped for cash, but I think it's irresponsible to drop $300 in one night on a bar tab.

 

And he does this every single Saturday night. Every one.

 

AND he only goes out and does this with single people, most of whom he doesn't even know well, if at all. He's MARRIED and should have gotten the whole getting completely ****faced and staying out until 4am out of his system a long time ago.

 

I hate that I'm the one who has to stay home ALL THE TIME and be responsible. Even if I wanted to stay out until 3am and get drunk, I wouldn't be able to find any girls to do it with me, since they are all married or in relationships, and don't do that **** anymore.

 

I find it humiliating that my husband is out at bars until 3am with single people, while all his married friends, or friends in relationships are with their wives or girlfriends.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Olive42

[Lil1]

Analystfromhell your reply is amusing. Next time maybe try actually reading the OP

 

Olive I think that you and your husband may benefit from going to a marriage councelor or an AA meeting. Binge drinking is also a form of alcoholism and your husband may have deeper issues going on in his head that are leading him to binge drink but only a real professional would be able to help him bring these issues out into the open. Consistent binge drinking is not normal for anyone who is mentally healthy.

 

It sounds like you are being very smart with your own life choices. It would be sad to bring a child into the world just to 'fix' a marriage or to compensate for something your husband feels he is lacking. You need to know that you will have his full support when and if you two decide to have children. You are seeing the red flags and doing something about it instead of ignoring them and that is a very good thing. Right now your husband needs to work on his well being. The best thing you can do now is keep communication open. Keep telling your husband how you feel and why you feel the way you do. Ultimately though it is his decision to get professional health and acknowledge that he has a problem with binge drinking, all you can do as his spouse is support him, but it's also important to take care of yourself. This won't be easy and I hope you two will make it through!

[denise_xo]

My sympathies. To answer you thread title, no this definitely isn't normal and it sounds really wise of you to hold off children. I second everything Lil1 wrote. Ultimately this is something he needs to acknowledge, face full on and take charge of. It sounds like classic avoidance strategies and blame shifting he's playing at the moment. I hope it works out for you!

[PatFinkle]

Yes it is normal if one happens to be a degenerate alcoholic.

 

he has at least 15 drinks when he goes out. He comes home so wasted that he blacks out, and the next day can't get out of bed for the entire day, and still feels like **** the following day.

This level of consumption clearly establishes that your husband is in fact a long-time degenerate alcoholic. He has probably been heavily drinking since at least early adolesence or over 20 years. If he does not stop, and soon, he is a good candidate for liver failure within the next five to ten years. Your husband, to build up such a tolerance level, is undoubtedly drinking on a daily and probably relatively constant basis--in between what you perceive as his "binges". (They are VERY good at hiding it though.) Edited August 21, 2011 by PatFinkle

[PatFinkle]

My sympathies. To answer you thread title, no this definitely isn't normal and it sounds really wise of you to hold off children. I second everything Lil1 wrote. Ultimately this is something he needs to acknowledge, face full on and take charge of. It sounds like classic avoidance strategies and blame shifting he's playing at the moment. I hope it works out for you!

 

Her husband is a hard-core drunk and it is unclear why this wasn't apparent to her previously.

[PatFinkle]

And, another thing that bothers me, is the money he spends on going out to bars. It's not like we're strapped for cash, but I think it's irresponsible to drop $300 in one night on a bar tab.

 

And he does this every single Saturday night. Every one.

 

AND he only goes out and does this with single people, most of whom he doesn't even know well, if at all. He's MARRIED and should have gotten the whole getting completely ****faced and staying out until 4am out of his system a long time ago.

 

I hate that I'm the one who has to stay home ALL THE TIME and be responsible. Even if I wanted to stay out until 3am and get drunk, I wouldn't be able to find any girls to do it with me, since they are all married or in relationships, and don't do that **** anymore.

 

I find it humiliating that my husband is out at bars until 3am with single people, while all his married friends, or friends in relationships are with their wives or girlfriends.

 

This implies that he has been going out and getting sh*t-faced on at least a weekly basis for the whole time you have ever known him.

 

How is it possible you could not be aware that he is a hard core alcoholic?

 

He doesn't go out to hang with friends--he goes out to drink. Alcohol is his only and bestest friend. The other barflys are just drinking companions, not real friends, and may also be alcoholics. People like your husband don't have real friends. Their only friend is the bottle.

 

I would never have kids with a man like this and in fact you should seriously consider getting an annulment if he concealed his alcoholism from you.

 

You don't want to spend the next five, ten, twenty, thirty years trying to help this loser dry out, do you?

 

Why exactly did you marry him anyway?

[denise_xo]

Her husband is a hard-core drunk and it is unclear why this wasn't apparent to her previously.

 

I've been an alcoholic myself and it wasn't really clear to anyone around me - when I stopped drinking I even had friends who tried to stop me from quitting. I think the term 'alcoholic' is still often associated with some kind of image of people who live in the gutter, so if someone functions relatively well in other aspects of life (as in, holds on to a job where s/he performs reasonably well, has friends, etc), people are often slow to catch on to the magnitude of the problem. This is especially the case if he surrounds himself with people with similar behaviour, which it sounds like he's doing every weekend (another typical denial strategy).

[betterdeal]

This level of consumption clearly establishes that your husband is in fact a long-time degenerate alcoholic. He has probably been heavily drinking since at least early adolesence or over 20 years. If he does not stop, and soon, he is a good candidate for liver failure within the next five to ten years. Your husband, to build up such a tolerance level, is undoubtedly drinking on a daily and probably relatively constant basis--in between what you perceive as his "binges". (They are VERY good at hiding it though.)

 

You really don't know anything about drinking, do you? Plenty of people binge drink at weekends and don't drink through the week. It's not good, it's not healthy, but it also doesn't require drinking daily to achieve.

 

Binge drinking is self-medication at its worst, but is is not substance dependency, unlike alcoholism. Drink is the substance of choice because it's legal and available, and there are people with whom to readily socialise with.

 

It sounds to me like this guy hasn't learnt better coping mechanisms for dealing with stress and anxiety. He's "letting his hair down" by getting rat-arsed.

 

Declare your boundaries to him. Let him know clearly what you will and won't accept, and what will happen if he disrespects those boundaries. Relationship counselling may be a good option to get to the heart of whatever is bugging him and for you to find ways to resolve your needs and his in a mutually beneficial way.

 

I'd advise him to get into a martial art, or a team sport like football, rugby, or rowing - something that he can sink his teeth into and use up that pent up energy of his in a constructive way - and something that he can "own" as in, it's not yours. It's good to have your own things going on. My folks had bingo and golf. Having some time with other men doing men things may be what he's looking for.

[giotto]

You really don't know anything about drinking, do you? Plenty of people binge drink at weekends and don't drink through the week. It's not good, it's not healthy, but it also doesn't require drinking daily to achieve.

 

Binge drinking is self-medication at its worst, but is is not substance dependency, unlike alcoholism. Drink is the substance of choice because it's legal and available, and there are people with whom to readily socialise with.

 

It sounds to me like this guy hasn't learnt better coping mechanisms for dealing with stress and anxiety. He's "letting his hair down" by getting rat-arsed.

 

Declare your boundaries to him. Let him know clearly what you will and won't accept, and what will happen if he disrespects those boundaries. Relationship counselling may be a good option to get to the heart of whatever is bugging him and for you to find ways to resolve your needs and his in a mutually beneficial way.

 

I'd advise him to get into a martial art, or a team sport like football, rugby, or rowing - something that he can sink his teeth into and use up that pent up energy of his in a constructive way - and something that he can "own" as in, it's not yours. It's good to have your own things going on. My folks had bingo and golf. Having some time with other men doing men things may be what he's looking for.

 

 

Completely agree with this... ^^^^

[Olive42]

I completely agree that this is some kind of avoidance strategy. That definitely rings true to me. I also agree that he should be involved in some sort of sport, or do something active, but I just don't see that happening. My husband hates making commitments to events or activities. He says that he won't know if he feels like doing something until that day. Frankly, I think he's a tad lazy . He goes to the gym 3x per week while he's at work to life weights, and rides his bike to and from work (about 1 mile each way), but he hates cardio, and he thinks that taking the dogs for a one mile jog or walk is a big deal. He hates walking them. He has never in his life played a sport, and is just all around not athletic.

 

I don't know how to enforce any boundaries I might try to establish. I feel that the only possibility is an ultimatum: If you continue to do this, I will leave. But, this is not a threat I am ready to act on (yet).

 

He doesn't think there is any problem with his behavior, so he is not willing to change. I, on the other hand become increasingly unhappy (especially when I hear things like "I've been at work/home with the dogs all day, I'm going out, I need to get out of here"). When I get mad at him, or try to talk to him about something I think is a problem, he just thinks that I'm being a bitch for no reason.

 

He's a very social person, and very outgoing, so I don't understand why, but it seems like he can't be in a social situation and not drink. I think part of it is that he has a reputation as a partier from his college/postcollege days that he feels he has to live up to with certain friends.

 

But, there's definitely something else there. For example, Saturday night we went to dinner in the suburbs with some of his family and a few friends. We agreed beforehand that he would drive, and I could have a couple drinks. We got there a little early, and he had downed 3 cocktails in the time it took me to drink one, and then he started in on the wine. I asked him if he was still planning on driving home, he said yes, and continued to drink. His uncle actually told him (I think he overheard me) that he needed to stop drinking. It was a completely inappropriate event to be trying to get drunk, and I don't understand what the hell is up. He won't talk to me about it, because he doesn't think there is a problem with his drinking or his behavior.

 

It is so frustrating.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Olive42

[reboot]

You really don't know anything about drinking, do you? Plenty of people binge drink at weekends and don't drink through the week. It's not good, it's not healthy, but it also doesn't require drinking daily to achieve.

 

You don't have to drink every day to be an alcoholic. If that is your definition, perhaps you're the one that doesn't know much about it.

 

"Alcoholism is the cyclic presence of tolerance, withdrawal, and excessive alcohol use; the drinker's inability to control such compulsive drinking, despite awareness of its harm to his or her health, indicates that the person might be an alcoholic"

[betterdeal]

You don't have to drink every day to be an alcoholic. If that is your definition, perhaps you're the one that doesn't know much about it.

 

"Alcoholism is the cyclic presence of tolerance, withdrawal, and excessive alcohol use; the drinker's inability to control such compulsive drinking, despite awareness of its harm to his or her health, indicates that the person might be an alcoholic"

 

Which is neither what PatFink nor the OP has described.

[carhill]

IMO, the binging is a symptom of deeper psychological issues, exemplified by his dismay and denial of what most human adults consider to be normal responsibilities and obligations.

 

I've been around a fair amount of bingers and alcoholics, though not male, and the overriding commonality is that they appear to be running away from something, whether it be childhood abuse/molestation or relationship/personal pain or unrealized expectations or etc, etc.

 

My sympathies. You deserve a healthy and loving M.

[betterdeal]

I completely agree that this is some kind of avoidance strategy. That definitely rings true to me. I also agree that he should be involved in some sort of sport, or do something active, but I just don't see that happening. My husband hates making commitments to events or activities. He says that he won't know if he feels like doing something until that day. Frankly, I think he's a tad lazy . He goes to the gym 3x per week while he's at work to life weights, and rides his bike to and from work (about 1 mile each way), but he hates cardio, and he thinks that taking the dogs for a one mile jog or walk is a big deal. He hates walking them. He has never in his life played a sport, and is just all around not athletic.

 

I don't know how to enforce any boundaries I might try to establish. I feel that the only possibility is an ultimatum: If you continue to do this, I will leave. But, this is not a threat I am ready to act on (yet).

 

He doesn't think there is any problem with his behavior, so he is not willing to change. I, on the other hand become increasingly unhappy (especially when I hear things like "I've been at work/home with the dogs all day, I'm going out, I need to get out of here"). When I get mad at him, or try to talk to him about something I think is a problem, he just thinks that I'm being a bitch for no reason.

 

He's a very social person, and very outgoing, so I don't understand why, but it seems like he can't be in a social situation and not drink. I think part of it is that he has a reputation as a partier from his college/postcollege days that he feels he has to live up to with certain friends.

 

But, there's definitely something else there. For example, Saturday night we went to dinner in the suburbs with some of his family and a few friends. We agreed beforehand that he would drive, and I could have a couple drinks. We got there a little early, and he had downed 3 cocktails in the time it took me to drink one, and then he started in on the wine. I asked him if he was still planning on driving home, he said yes, and continued to drink. His uncle actually told him (I think he overheard me) that he needed to stop drinking. It was a completely inappropriate event to be trying to get drunk, and I don't understand what the hell is up. He won't talk to me about it, because he doesn't think there is a problem with his drinking or his behavior.

 

It is so frustrating.

 

Well, there is a problem in that it upsets you and you're a married couple. I imagine if you decided to start turning tricks at the weekend for some extra money it might be a problem for him, even if you think sex work is as good as any other.

 

You do have to explain that his behaviour upsets you and what you will do if it doesn't change. Something along the lines of

 

"When you drink like a fish, I feel as though your avoiding me and I'm insulted by that. I don't expect you to be here all the time, and I'd be more than happy for you to have some other outlet, such as a sport (as a participant or spectator) for some man time, and even a couple of beers with the boys after / during but I won't tolerate you drinking yourself stupid any more. If you don't see the problem, if you don't make tangible changes soon, I'm going to file for divorce. I am not putting up with this."

 

Your other option is to put up with it, or get involved in a rather draining process of retaliation by locking him out / shouting / hoovering really loudly the morning after / going out ad hoc without explanation with your buddies etc. etc.

 

The choice is yours (and his).

[denise_xo]

I completely agree that this is some kind of avoidance strategy. That definitely rings true to me. I also agree that he should be involved in some sort of sport, or do something active, but I just don't see that happening. My husband hates making commitments to events or activities. He says that he won't know if he feels like doing something until that day. Frankly, I think he's a tad lazy . He goes to the gym 3x per week while he's at work to life weights, and rides his bike to and from work (about 1 mile each way), but he hates cardio, and he thinks that taking the dogs for a one mile jog or walk is a big deal. He hates walking them. He has never in his life played a sport, and is just all around not athletic.

 

I don't know how to enforce any boundaries I might try to establish. I feel that the only possibility is an ultimatum: If you continue to do this, I will leave. But, this is not a threat I am ready to act on (yet).

 

He doesn't think there is any problem with his behavior, so he is not willing to change. I, on the other hand become increasingly unhappy (especially when I hear things like "I've been at work/home with the dogs all day, I'm going out, I need to get out of here"). When I get mad at him, or try to talk to him about something I think is a problem, he just thinks that I'm being a bitch for no reason.

 

He's a very social person, and very outgoing, so I don't understand why, but it seems like he can't be in a social situation and not drink. I think part of it is that he has a reputation as a partier from his college/postcollege days that he feels he has to live up to with certain friends.

 

But, there's definitely something else there. For example, Saturday night we went to dinner in the suburbs with some of his family and a few friends. We agreed beforehand that he would drive, and I could have a couple drinks. We got there a little early, and he had downed 3 cocktails in the time it took me to drink one, and then he started in on the wine. I asked him if he was still planning on driving home, he said yes, and continued to drink. His uncle actually told him (I think he overheard me) that he needed to stop drinking. It was a completely inappropriate event to be trying to get drunk, and I don't understand what the hell is up. He won't talk to me about it, because he doesn't think there is a problem with his drinking or his behavior.

 

It is so frustrating.

 

Yes, you might have to present an ultimatum eventually, when you are ready. While the cause is probably underlying issues as you and others have suggested, there is also clearly addictive behaviour here. Some people can't let addictions go until they are faced with very stark choices, I know this was true for myself as well. In the meantime, keep communicating your position to him. If he thinks you're bit*hing, that's ultimately HIS problem and not yours. I'm sure he knows that his behaviour is problematic, he just doesn't want to acknowledge it, because that means he would also have to face it.

[Olive42]

Well, there is a problem in that it upsets you and you're a married couple. I imagine if you decided to start turning tricks at the weekend for some extra money it might be a problem for him, even if you think sex work is as good as any other.

 

Ah, of course that would be an issue...if he said it was Nothing is a valid issue to him, unless he says it is...so usually (according to him) only my behavior is ever problematic

 

I like your suggestion on how to approach this.

 

We did have a fairly decent conversation (that didn't involve his drinking) about us needing to spend time together "on purpose" as opposed to just happening to be at home at the same time as the other. But, he also pointed out that he needs to spend more time apart from me, doing his own thing, which I think is complete bs, because he already does that, but he refuses to acknowledge this. It makes me feel like he gave me what I wanted (agreeing that we need to spend more time together) in order to manipulate me into not giving him crap about all the time he spends drinking with his buddies. I started marking in a calendar all the nights that he goes out drinking with his buddies, so that if I confront him with this he won't be able to deny that it's true.

 

On a side note, my husband rarely drinks during the week. Sometimes he will go out on a Thursday night with one of his single buddies and get drunk, but that's rare. He will never have one or two drinks at home, ever. If he and I go out to dinner just the two of us, he will have at the very most 2 glasses of wine...if the server gives him a large pour, he won't drink the whole thing.

 

I drink 1 or 2 glasses of wine about 3 times per week (including weekends that I go to a party or something similar where everyone is drinking). Very rarely I will have 3 glasses, but that is a lot for me, and I never drink more than that. I do not get drunk from 2 drinks (because I drink slowly, probably), but if I bring up a problem, or his drinking, he uses this against me. He will say dismissively that I am drunk, or "Oh someone's been drinking wine tonight." He will say this whether I've had nothing to drink, or had 1 drink, or had 2 drinks. Doesn't matter. It drives me crazy.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Olive42

[Olive42]

That's because he's an alcoholic.

 

 

 

It's because he's addicted to drink.

 

 

 

 

Yes there is. He's an alcoholic.

 

 

 

That's classic behavior of an alcoholic.

 

 

 

 

 

Also classic behavior for an alcoholic.

 

 

 

 

"What is up" is that your h is an alcoholic.

 

 

 

 

Also a classic attitude of denial of an alcoholic.

 

 

 

 

You are a co-dependent enabler.

 

Please stop.

 

Calling my husband an alcoholic and me co-dependent is not a helpful response, at all. I have known my husband for over 4 years and this has never been a problem until recently. Whether or not your assessment is correct, your dismissive attitude is grating.

[Olive42]

LOL Ethyl.Mercaptan! I can guarantee that my husband does not drink when I don't know about it, hide bottles, etc. It has been duly noted that you think my husband is an alcoholic and that I am a co-dependent enabler. Got it.

[reboot]

LOL Ethyl.Mercaptan! I can guarantee that my husband does not drink when I don't know about it, hide bottles, etc. It has been duly noted that you think my husband is an alcoholic and that I am a co-dependent enabler. Got it.

 

He doesn't have to drink every day, nor hide bottles, nor drink when you don't know about it. He's still an alcoholic.

 

The bum on the street with a bottle of Ripple in a brown paper bag is a stereotypical alcoholic. The housewife that drinks every day and has bottles hidden all over the house is another stereotypical alcoholic, but there are many other types.

 

If you can't have a drink without going on to get sloppy drunk, you're an alcoholic.

[Olive42]

If you can't have a drink without going on to get sloppy drunk, you're an alcoholic.

 

I'm not saying that he is not. I don't know everything there is to know about alcoholism. I am disagreeing with statements such as this: "I'll bet if you look around the garage, his home office, workshop, or other part of his "space" you will find signs of drinking and perhaps bottles of alcohol, open and/or unopened. I'll bet he keeps booze somewhere in his car, too."

 

He also can have a drink without getting sloppy drunk. In certain situations and with certain groups of people he is choosing to get sloppy drunk. If he didn't want to be, then he is fully capable of not becoming so. He has drunk alcohol during our entire relationship, and I have not had a problem with his drinking until recently. I can pinpoint the exact day that this began to be a problem and that he consciously began to make this choice.

[Olive42]

There are many "indicators" of alcoholism in what she describes and undoubtedly many other behavior aspects that she hasn't mentioned that would also confirm that.

 

If he is like many other substance abusers than while alcohol might be his "drug of choice" he may also be a multi-substance abuser, for example, many addicts will basically consume anything available to get high--pills, weed, in addition to alcohol.

 

OP is so heavily in denial that she is unwilling to even ENTERTAIN the notion that he even MIGHT be an alcoholic.

 

So she will filter out anything to the contrary.

My husband does not do drugs

 

Also reading back through the thread it's interesting because at first the only issue was the weekend binge drinking but then as more of the facts came out it turns out he doesn't just binge drink with his buddies on the weekend, he excessively drinks at other times too, and even Olive admits he can't be in any social situation without drinking to excess.

 

If that's not an alcoholic I don't know what would be.

 

The only time he binge drinks is on the weekends with his friends. I personally don't consider 3 drinks during a 5 hour dinner to be binge drinking. I agree that he was drinking too much in the circumstances, but he would not become "sloppy drunk" in front of his family. His uncle who suggested he stop drinking had no idea how much my husband had had to drink; he was only backing me up.

[reboot]

I have to wonder, if you're going to get defensive about the answers you're getting, why did you ask the question? Did you really think very many people were going to say, "Oh yes, that's perfectly normal, everyone here drinks like a fish and gets sloppy drunk every weekend" ?

[Olive42]

I have to wonder, if you're going to get defensive about the answers you're getting, why did you ask the question? Did you really think very many people were going to say, "Oh yes, that's perfectly normal, everyone here drinks like a fish and gets sloppy drunk every weekend" ?

 

I don't think I'm being defensive. I am a little irritated that certain responses (such as "you idiot, your husband hides his drinking from you because he's an alcoholic, and fyi he does drugs too, and of course you don't know, because you're in denial") are off base (but I guess me thinking that just means that I'm in denial).