No attention from women, becoming a very angry person.

[Nexus One]

Probably the devil is the one who's in charge of sex.

 

God is in charge of love, and there's too little love around nowadays.

 

How about we don't know what the f*ck is controlling whatever it is we perceive as "reality", whatever reality is anyway. IF there is anything controlling it at all in the first place.

 

I remember reading about an experiment worked on by Einstein's nephew it was I think. They launched two telescopes into space, they aimed the telescopes at one of the faintest stars they were able to observe. They did it to wait for a photon from that star to hit the sensor of one of the telescopes.

 

The goal of the experiment was to establish whether light behaved like a bunch of individual particles or like a wave. When the photon would hit telescope A, then they had proof that light would act as particles, if it would hit telescope B, then they had proof that light behaved as a wave.

 

Now here's what happened. The photon hit whatever telescope the human scientists were observing through, every f*cking time. When they observed the sensor of telescope A, then the photon hit THAT sensor and it behaved like a particle, when they observed telescope B, then the photon hit THAT sensor and it turned out to be wave-like.

 

This baffled the scientists. You know why? Because it meant that observation in itself, changes reality. If you think about it, that has some far reaching philosophical implications.

 

In my opinion, if you're honest to yourself, then we don't know what the f*ck is actually going on. Even if you look at the Standard Model, which is supposed to explain reality in a scientific way, then there's hardly anything you can read between the lines of all the mathematical laws. It's all a f*cking mystery.

 

In the context of asking someone out, were all stuck on a spherical rock floating through endless cold dark space. Our Milky Way is on a collision course with the Andromeda galaxy. Both you and your potential date are in the same boat. The only thing you can do is make the best of it.

[AHardDaysNight]

How about we don't know what the f*ck is controlling whatever it is we perceive as "reality", whatever reality is anyway. IF there is anything controlling it at all in the first place.

 

I remember reading about an experiment worked on by Einstein's nephew it was I think. They launched two telescopes into space, they aimed the telescopes at one of the faintest stars they were able to observe. They did it to wait for a photon from that star to hit the sensor of one of the telescopes.

 

The goal of the experiment was to establish whether light behaved like a bunch of individual particles or like a wave. When the photon would hit telescope A, then they had proof that light would act as particles, if it would hit telescope B, then they had proof that light behaved as a wave.

 

Now here's what happened. The photon hit whatever telescope the human scientists were observing through, every f*cking time. When they observed the sensor of telescope A, then the photon hit THAT sensor and it behaved like a particle, when they observed telescope B, then the photon hit THAT sensor and it turned out to be wave-like.

 

This baffled the scientists. You know why? Because it meant that observation in itself, changes reality. If you think about it, that has some far reaching philosophical implications.

 

In my opinion, if you're honest to yourself, then we don't know what the f*ck is actually going on. Even if you look at the Standard Model, which is supposed to explain reality in a scientific way, then there's hardly anything you can read between the lines of all the mathematical laws. It's all a f*cking mystery.

 

In the context of asking someone out, were all stuck on a spherical rock floating through endless cold dark space. Our Milky Way is on a collision course with the Andromeda galaxy. Both you and your potential date are in the same boat. The only thing you can do is make the best of it.

 

So is your argument that based upon how attractive a girl finds me, and how attractive I find her, that will influence whether or not we're compatible?

 

If so, I agree. But finding a thin girl who likes fat, average looking guys, is proving to be tricky.

 

I can't just turn off what I find attractive. I know girls can't, either, but what I'm doing here is venting my frustration that every single girl has the view that hot people stick with hot people, and not-so-hot people stick with not-so-hot people!

 

I am 28 and never been on a date, or even kissed a girl, so it's not like I'm knocking down doors and being rejected. In fact, I am so scared of failure that I don't even try. I feel like I have to look like a male model before an attractive girl will even give me a chance.

[Queen Zenobia]

 

In the context of asking someone out, were all stuck on a spherical rock floating through endless cold dark space. Our Milky Way is on a collision course with the Andromeda galaxy. Both you and your potential date are in the same boat. The only thing you can do is make the best of it.

 

A bit of a pessimistic way of getting your point across, but it's a good point.

 

One thing I tend to notice about these types of threads (angry/lonely/frustrated men, etc.) is that it seems to validate what in economics is called the subjective theory of value. Essentially, these guys have never had/rarely have a girlfriend and thus value the affections of a female higher than what most would consider normative in our society. Contrast this thread with Mr. Dream Merchant's thread (which may or may not be a factual one) for instance, and you start to wonder if some of these guys are even living in the same world that everyone else is (metaphorically of course).

 

Telling them that getting a girl isn't a big deal is indeed a factual statement. However, from their point of view, it's very similar to telling a thirsty person in the desert that an ounce of gold is worth more than a gallon of water (it is, but it also isn't). Perhaps instead of persuasion, it's time we get these men out of the desert (religious metaphor to keep it in the spirit of all the posts on this page )

[OnyxSnowfall]

This baffled the scientists. You know why? Because it meant that observation in itself, changes reality.

 

That is an interesting way of looking at it.

 

I think I lean towards the concept of "reality" being misunderstood, rather than something understood that can flow through someone's mind and even change... but if the latter is at all true, then "reality" is more like "realities": an individual concept/notion/experience that simply overlaps other individual "realities"... shaping and influencing one another, but never fully able to be consistent and exact / identical.

 

In the end... PERCEPTION. If you have to brainwash yourself to believe you are attractive, valuable and that there is joy in life ... then so be it. The thing is, people ARE valuable and there is joy in life... but belief is more powerful than truth so... choose your thinking patterns wisely... and if you've formed some negative and or destructive ones... break them down and starve them... then replace them with positive ones.

 

It can take years, depending upon the amount of trauma one has gone through and depending upon how deeply their day to day synapses have fused with negative emotions. But it can be changed.

 

Generally speaking, most people don't like feeling bad. Some people become addicted to it... but they still don't like it. IF people sense that they will feel bad around you, they will probably just instinctively avoid it. People LIKE feeling good... bottom line. It can get people into trouble, sure... but being in good company is a wonderful thing... and sharing in good company is even better. If you don't even want to be around yourself, sculpt yourself into something you DO enjoy being around... lol. LIKE YOURSELF. LOVE YOURSELF. I'm serious, it WILL draw people in... and the best part is that such a thing is just a side benefit, it's not even really longed for that much at that point.

[AHardDaysNight]

Good point, Queen.

 

I often feel like I'm dying of thirst. Hearing all the time about how good kisses are, how good sex is, how good cuddling is...

 

Well, I haven't experienced any of that, so how in the world am I supposed to know what that's like?

 

Sometimes I hug my pillow out of loneliness, and pretend it's a girl. I certainly don't know what it's like to wake up next to a girl. If I did, I probably wouldn't be so angry and frustrated.

[OnyxSnowfall]

I am 28 and never been on a date, or even kissed a girl, so it's not like I'm knocking down doors and being rejected. In fact, I am so scared of failure that I don't even try. I feel like I have to look like a male model before an attractive girl will even give me a chance.

 

You need to go face a possible failure because you're already failing. And the chances of you succeeding without trying are really close to nothing. What do you have to lose? So what if you get rejected, your fear will come to pass and you will see you are still alive. Then you can try again... at SOME point, you will be successful if you keep trying. It's probability.

 

You don't have to be a male model... you don't.

[Queen Zenobia]

So is your argument that based upon how attractive a girl finds me, and how attractive I find her, that will influence whether or not we're compatible?

 

If so, I agree. But finding a thin girl who likes fat, average looking guys, is proving to be tricky.

 

I went to a barbecue a few months ago and a girl I went to high school with was there along with her boyfriend. She's a thin girl, but her boyfriend is extremely large. And he continually bragged about how fat he was and how cool it was to be fat. It was quite obnoxious and off putting, but for some reason she was completely fine with it. I'm not saying it's the norm, but it's not impossible.

 

I can't just turn off what I find attractive. I know girls can't, either, but what I'm doing here is venting my frustration that every single girl has the view that hot people stick with hot people, and not-so-hot people stick with not-so-hot people!

 

I am 28 and never been on a date, or even kissed a girl, so it's not like I'm knocking down doors and being rejected. In fact, I am so scared of failure that I don't even try. I feel like I have to look like a male model before an attractive girl will even give me a chance.

 

You've also stated that you thought women flocked to men with dangerous occupations and/or money. Both of which are patently untrue. As is your assertion that you have to look like a male model. What you really need to do is get a positive attitude, and some drive and ambition (for there own merits). Then, people will be attracted to you (as friends and yes as lovers).

[OnyxSnowfall]

If I did, I probably wouldn't be so angry and frustrated.

 

A girl cannot give you self-esteem. She may temporarily allay your emotions... but you will come to find out, all in good time, that there is also a lot of strain involved. You have to be together enough to deal with that strain when it comes. Face problems when they arise... because they *will* arise.

 

It's best to get involved with someone when you're mentally and emotionally in a good spot. You will reap more benefits that way... IF you just want to get laid, then no need to worry about that I guess... just start chasing girls. One will eventually give heh.

[Nexus One]

A bit of a pessimistic way of getting your point across, but it's a good point.

 

The reason why I tried to get the point across that way was because it puts things in perspective. I wasn't trying to be pessimistic, I doubt it's even relevant that we're on a collision course with Andromeda, it's an event that will take place hundreds of millions of not billions of years from now. But it does allow for things to be seen in perspective, i.e. that asking someone out is perhaps not such a big deal after all in the grand scheme of things.

[Queen Zenobia]

A girl cannot give you self-esteem. She may temporarily allay your emotions... but you will come to find out, all in good time, that there is also a lot of strain involved. You have to be together enough to deal with that strain when it comes. Face problems when they arise... because they *will* arise.

 

It's best to get involved with someone when you're mentally and emotionally in a good spot. You will reap more benefits that way... IF you just want to get laid, then no need to worry about that I guess... just start chasing girls. One will eventually give heh.

 

After reading enough of Somedude81's threads and 49322's as well, I actually disagree with that statement. Somewhat at least. I mean sure, one must have some sense of self value outside of one's partner, but in some sense most if not all of the negative emotions these types of guys (Aharddaysnight may fit into this too) have is directly associated to their perceived inability to attract females. I suspect that even if all were to become CEOs of fortune 500 companies tomorrow (or some other equivalent success from which they would derive self esteem) they'd still feel as crummy about their situation as they do now. That has to be tackled head on.

[OnyxSnowfall]

After reading enough of Somedude81's threads and 49322's as well, I actually disagree with that statement. Somewhat at least. I mean sure, one must have some sense of self value outside of one's partner, but in some sense most if not all of the negative emotions these types of guys (Aharddaysnight may fit into this too) have is directly associated to their perceived inability to attract females. I suspect that even if all were to become CEOs of fortune 500 companies tomorrow (or some other equivalent success from which they would derive self esteem) they'd still feel as crummy about their situation as they do now. That has to be tackled head on.

 

I suppose I've known guys who've sifted through women like rabbits and who don't have any self-esteem... it seemed like the reason for their behaviors even --- like they're desperately groping for "self-esteem" in all the wrong places... despite their "conquests and conquers", they were always putting themselves down and down and down...

 

Not to mention a man can be involved with a woman who cheats on him with another man --- if she was his "foundation" for his "self-esteem", how would that impact his view of himself? What about all the other things that can occur and turn sour?

 

But we can get extremely technical here........

 

I don't mean "self-esteem" then... because that can indeed fluctuate and others can affect it. I mean "self-worth".

[Titania22]

I really like this thread and many of the advice and points of view.

 

I know what it is like to start feeling really angry/frustrated/upset from prolonged celibacy/singleness.

 

But I also feel that taking the more extreme/unexpectedly/spontaneous chance actions are possible when you feel you literally have nothing left to lose. And I think some of those types of actions have the potential for the biggest rewards.

 

I am on the verge of taking one of those actions, and although the probability of rejection by the object of affection is very high, I may inadvertently attract attention from others who as yet I am unaware of.

 

So I would advise, if you have nothing left to lose, get the kamikaze attitude. If you are likely to crash and burn, try to make the biggest explosion as you hit the earth. (Obviously a metaphor, but I am sure you get the point.)

 

My greatest experiences always came out of my worst expectations.

[OnyxSnowfall]

I totaly relate, OP and SD81, I get what you mean about generic advice...lol

"get over it" "Someone for everyone" "build self esteem" ect ect....It's just so hard to get people to know how it really feels and how hard it is...

 

I totally relate to the both of you, bros.

 

It can be good to commiserate. But it doesn't little to help someone and yourself out of the situation.

 

I cannot "relate" to being unable to attract people but I used to suffer major panic attacks and am rather something of a BPD in regression lol. I could get into all the gory details about my childhood and adolescence etc... but to put it simply, I was very intimate with the idea of death and suicide and I was just a seeping, bleeding nasty mess of darkness Lol. I've been through counseling and therapy since I was 11 and I will be returning to therapy within a month... I don't take medications, because in my experience, that worsened my mind.

 

However, I haven't had panic attacks for over 5 years now (when I was riddled with them since 4). What has worked was shifting my thoughts around and shutting down negative ones. I'm at least not spewing out generic crap, I do know what it's like to be entrapped with a seemingly endless despair... granted our experiences and reasons likely differ...

 

likely it's still a similar essence. It's hard to get things untangled, but it can be done. We can really only help ourselves in the end. Bemoaning things doesn't really make any progress. Ceasing the bemoaning, however counter-intuitive it may seem, does help. FOCUSING on good things.

[Zaphod B]

I can fully identify with the OP. I know when I was younger, I used to feel exactly the same, allthough not so much anger, but misery at not being able to get women to take any notice of me and I'm 6'2! I had huge self-esteem issues and no confidence whatsoever. I was even too scared just to try to strike up a conversation with a woman, let alone ask one out and even when I did get to know women I still hardly ever had the guts to take that next step and when I did ocassionally muster up the courage I got declined. Took me till I was 22 before I got my first girlfriend and a lot of that was thanks to her chasing me and making it obvious she liked me. I married her and was with her for 11 years.

 

Confidence was my problem and I realised that. The big saviour for me was the Internet. Because of my writing skills I had women developing crushes on me on message boards and in chat rooms. I didn't have to worry about my shyness or lack of skills with members of the opposite sex there. Confidence building, even if in a virtual world. Learning what is good conversation material and what isn't.

 

Online dating was even better because I could skip the initial "first approach", which I hated so much... the one where you have to make a cold approach, scared of being rejected. Doesn't matter with online dating. I was getting lots of coffee dates. The great thing was by doing that I was able to weed out all the women that didn't find me attractive. They saw my pictures saw my profile, so that hurdle was overcome. My confidence soared because I had the woman there one-on-one with no distractions, with her already interested in getting to know me. I soon found that I had what it takes to hold a good quality conversation with a woman in a one-on-one situation and the more coffee dates I went on, the easier it became. It got to the point after about 6 months, where I wasn't even nervous about meeting a woman for that initial first meeting. I met many beautiful women and even professional ones (ie doctors, solicitors) and hit it off with some.

 

A year later, I was able to approach women in social situations because I had had success with online dating and even though I consider myself average looking and severely lacking in sex appeal, I have been able to pull in the ocassional babe (and you should see the one I'm dating at the moment. WOW!. I can even approach total strangers in bars now. So when people say that just because you're average you should expect only to get average chicks, that is a crock of ****. I just wish I'd figured that out when I was a teenager.

 

so for me Internet dating was huge and helped me no end with self esteem and confidence issues. I know that for some, Internet dating just doesn't work for them and there are certainly plenty of pitfalls (and a lot of game players), but it did wonders for my success and confidence with women and got me a lot of sex and even a couple of relationships. But most of all it gave me confidence.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Zaphod B

[somedude81]

After reading enough of Somedude81's threads and 49322's as well, I actually disagree with that statement. Somewhat at least. I mean sure, one must have some sense of self value outside of one's partner, but in some sense most if not all of the negative emotions these types of guys (Aharddaysnight may fit into this too) have is directly associated to their perceived inability to attract females. I suspect that even if all were to become CEOs of fortune 500 companies tomorrow (or some other equivalent success from which they would derive self esteem) they'd still feel as crummy about their situation as they do now. That has to be tackled head on.

That's exactly how I feel.

 

A big part of being a man is having a family, being a father, having a woman to love.

 

A man who lives to be lonely and alone has failed in those aspects.

 

Not to mention that virtually everybody on this Earth wants a partner. It's why we are all on loveshack...

 

Getting a woman won't make me happy? At least let me try for myself.

[robertdawson]

Easyguy14: Well, the first girl in my example I had talked to a few weeks ago and she was in a certain class then. When I approached her the other day she greeted me as I walked up and I asked her if she was in the second part of that class. We basically just talked about the university, stuff like that. One of her coworkers came up and I brought up that she hadn't seen a certain movie (that happens to be really funny) and she said she had only seen parts of it. I told her that her and her coworker needed to see it and if they didn't know anyone that had it to tell me and I'd let them borrow it.

 

The second one I sat down across from in the library and after a few minutes looked over and asked her how it was going. She said that it was ok but she was kind of ticked because the public bus was late so she was having to wait a while for it to come again. We basically ended up talking about the bus and I told her a few funny stories about me trying to take it (missing it once and running after it, etc.), etc. Somehow it got brought up that I was waiting until I had to go to work and I talked very briefly about my job. She got up and left and told me to have a good day at work and then I asked her what her name was.

 

I guess part of the problem is that I have trouble flirting. For people I don't know very well I am concerned I will come off as a creep or a douchebag. Also, there are some times where I just don't know what I could say in a conversation to flirt while being appropriate. How the heck would I have started flirting in either of those examples, especially the second one?

[AHardDaysNight]

I guess what hurts the most is that I know I would be a good father and husband. I'm great with kids, I am a caring person (though frustrated sometimes), I set a good role model for others, etc.

 

However, it's like I'm not good enough. Who is? Are you seriously telling me that alcoholics, drug abusers, pedophiles, criminals...in other words...are better at being parents than I am? Because it seems like those are the ones that are the "players", and that women seem to go after the most!

 

I dunno...maybe I'm jaded. But I am frustrated of getting nowhere, just wanting a kiss or to feel loved...and these guys get it handed to them on a silver platter!

[fortyninethousand322]

 

so for me Internet dating was huge and helped me no end with self esteem and confidence issues. I know that for some, Internet dating just doesn't work for them and there are certainly plenty of pitfalls (and a lot of game players), but it did wonders for my success and confidence with women and got me a lot of sex and even a couple of relationships. But most of all it gave me confidence.

 

My only beef with online dating is that I can't seem to get women to respond to my messages. I sent two just a few days ago, neither girl responded, but they did look at my profile (happens every time ). The constant failure has led me to gradually stop using OLD altogether because it's taking it's toll on my already fragile confidence. Unfortunately OLD was the only avenue I had been pursuing dates lately.

 

I really just feel like getting a girlfriend is impossible.

[AHardDaysNight]

I'm going to try to let go of the resentment. It's not getting me anywhere.

[Zaphod B]

I guess part of the problem is that I have trouble flirting. For people I don't know very well I am concerned I will come off as a creep or a douchebag. Also, there are some times where I just don't know what I could say in a conversation to flirt while being appropriate. How the heck would I have started flirting in either of those examples, especially the second one?

 

I have this same issue and at the moment it's the thing I'm trying to work on. Hard to know where to draw the line right? I thought I'd crossed it with the last woman I really liked and I was beating myself up over it for a couple of weeks afterwards, thinking I'd blown it. But then she made contact out of the blue and seems i hadn't crossed that line at all.

[robertdawson]

Yeah, the line where you go too far is pretty hard to see. If I could be better at gauging that and coming up with flirty things to say on the fly I'd be set. However, the only time I can really flirt "naturally" is if the conversation topic lends itself to it.

[Zaphod B]

My only beef with online dating is that I can't seem to get women to respond to my messages. I sent two just a few days ago, neither girl responded, but they did look at my profile (happens every time ). The constant failure has led me to gradually stop using OLD altogether because it's taking it's toll on my already fragile confidence. Unfortunately OLD was the only avenue I had been pursuing dates lately.

 

I really just feel like getting a girlfriend is impossible.

 

I hear a lot of similar stories on this site. I'm from New Zealand so maybe it's not so bad there because Internet Dating has only really started to take off there in the last couple of years. But yeah, getting the initial response is the challenge, and it's like about 1 or 2 in 10 that respond to me. But once I get them chatting then it's all sweet. 9 times out of 10 if I ask they'll meet me.

 

I can identify with that frustration thought. I left home at 17 and was always trying to meet girls and even worked in places that were full of girls. Took me 5 bloody years to finally get one! Although I realise now I had a problem with tunnel vision. I'd always have some woman I was working on and I'd never notice others that actually did like me until it was too late. I was so naive too and didn't have a clue most of the time when some chick wanted me. Even had one hinting at me she wanted to go to bed with me when I was with her at her sister's place watching a movie. I beat myself up a lot when a few weeks later, after she left town, her sister told me she wanted me, but thought I wasn't interested. She said, 'She was hinting at you and flirting with you. Didn't you realise?" And I'm saying "What? No! I didn't reasise. Oh ****!" and she said. 'If you'd responded to her she would have stayed here". . At one work place I had one hot chick proposition me at work. Wasn't until about 5 years later that I realised that's what she had been doing! But I was long gone from there then. LOL

[Zaphod B]

Yeah, the line where you go too far is pretty hard to see. If I could be better at gauging that and coming up with flirty things to say on the fly I'd be set. However, the only time I can really flirt "naturally" is if the conversation topic lends itself to it.

 

Ha ha! I'm hearing ya! Same with me! But it's certaily a major tool in a guy's arsenal, so I'm trying to come up with ideas in my head about how I can do it and yet be funny and charming at the same time.

[AmEricanWomann]

I guess what hurts the most is that I know I would be a good father and husband. I'm great with kids, I am a caring person (though frustrated sometimes), I set a good role model for others, etc.

 

However, it's like I'm not good enough. Who is? Are you seriously telling me that alcoholics, drug abusers, pedophiles, criminals...in other words...are better at being parents than I am? Because it seems like those are the ones that are the "players", and that women seem to go after the most!

 

I dunno...maybe I'm jaded. But I am frustrated of getting nowhere, just wanting a kiss or to feel loved...and these guys get it handed to them on a silver platter!

 

I know life can be so unfair. Im not saying that sarcastically, but with sincerity. It doesnt just happen for guys, sometimes girls get the short end of the stick too.

 

One of my closest friends is a very sweet lady with a huge heart. She's works as a teacher, is completely reliable, kind and honest, but because she's less then physically ideal, she never had a boyfriend in her life until about 4 or 5 years ago. She'd still be a virgin if she hadn't met this guy. But like alot of relationships, it started out with him being crazy about her, but eventually for whatever reason he dumped her. He didn't even speak to her for several months which upset her greatly because he'd said that he wanted to remain friends and she believed him. Finally he reconnected with her but not as a romantic partner, just as a pal. So now she's alone again and rather heartbroken.

 

Meanwhile she has a brother who spent the last couple of decades as a crack addict. He's been to jail several times but he always has a girlfriend. True, they're pretty much the same level as him.. Drug addicts or alcoholics so not exactly the cream of the crop, but still at least he has romantic companion while my friend who worked so hard her whole life and treats everyone with kindness has no one. And you may blame her and say she's too picky, but really her only stipulations are that they not be like her brother. She doesnt want a crack addict or a lover who's in jail. She's short so she doesnt care about height...She really would take a guy for his heart, if he treated her well. But no man ever seems to want her.

 

I know guys sometimes think that they need to successful to get women and resent that, but at least you have some control over your success in life, but my friend has the opposite curse; No matter how successful she becomes in her career that doesnt matter a whit with men because she's not conventionally attractive and she can't do much to change that unless she has plastic surgery.

 

I'm not going to give you advice because most of it doesnt do much good, but I will wish you good luck. You really seem like a genuinely sincere person and I hope you find someone. Actually I am going to make one suggestion. Alot of guys who have no luck with American women seek women from overseas. Yes its true that alot of them only want an American for the green card, but many of them are sincerely looking for a man from the states because they believe American men are nicer and will treat them better than the men in their own country. So anyway, it may not be your cup of tea, but I just thought I'd put the suggestion out there.

 

Anyway, you seem like a decent person. Good luck in your search.

[AHardDaysNight]

I do have a thing for British women, but I don't know if that is what you're implying. I don't find typical foreign women attractive at all...and since I'm proud to be an American, I'd rather date and marry an American woman.

 

But yeah, I understand where you're coming from. I know how unfair it is for unattractive (at least unconventionally) women to date. But even Susan Boyle got a date and first kiss in her 40's! It's not hopeless for your friend.

 

I guess I just am frustrated, because I am socially anxious, with bipolar, and social awkwardness. This leads to me not having the "game" that other guys have. Even if I looked like Brad Pitt, I'd still be incel.