Once I get it, I don't want it anymore..

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Originally Posted by A O

OK, if you want to talk about double standards....

 

Translation:I don't care what double standards women have to deal with, all I care about are the double standards men have to deal with. Which is why, in a tread, dedicated to the poor treatment of women, I would rather discuss how men are treated and not say anything about how women can be treated.

 

Thanks for your input AO. We know where you stand when it comes to double standards. We also know that you don't give much a thought to the double standards that cause women harm, only the ones that cause men harm.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Amen........

 

 

And there you have it....... The reason behind Mr. Dream Merchant's posts about how he treats women.

 

Again Mr. Dream Merchant, why are you in a section of a website about dating when you clearly don't care to really date....

[A O]

I made the "gold-digger/using a man for money" comparison earlier on in this thread...so I certainly agree with you that women who decry men who don't act as mealtickets as "cheap" are worthy of criticism. Assuming you are actually saying that.

The gold-digger concept is well known. It is not an example I tend to use. Paying for dates where many women judge men in a negative fashion is very akin to men who negatively judge female sexuality. It is also a scenario that few people ever seem to consider.

 

"Short men" "expecting the man to pay" threads are a very regular feature of Loveshack. Do an advanced search, on this site for threads featuring the phrase "double standards" and see what comes up.

Short men - no its not about short men. Its about men not meeting certain height requirements whether they be short, average height or above average height. And all this despite many of these men being as tall, if not taller than the women in question.

 

Again, I agree with the last part of this comment. However, having seen other posts by Mme. Chaucer, sally4sara and other women who have got into it with the OP on this thread, I feel pretty confident in saying that these are people who have consistently expressed a commitment towards working towards fairness in their relationships with men. Fairness towards the man as well as towards themselves. People have the opportunity to express themselves with regard to all sorts of values on this board. For me, how much credibility a person carries relates not to how many friends they have on the board, or how aggressively they can argue, or how many people nod agreement to their posts. Their credibility rests on how consistent they are.

If this were true, if they all were consistently putting in as much effort to question the female equivalents of the likes of the OP then I would not have needed to express the opinions I have.

 

If you take the view that it's okay for the OP to apply double standards here (and I'm not saying you, specifically, do - I'm talking generally), then the consistent approach is agree that it's okay for women to also apply double standards.

Its not the application of double standards I'm highlighting here because double standards are part and parcel of the dating game. Both genders apply to suit. That's not the point. The point is who, as in which gender is most likely to get "called out" for applying them. The answer to that is an absolute no-brainer. Consistency in this instance would see women called out as often as men when exerting the same behavior.

 

What I'm seeing on this thread is some men saying "the OP isn't doing anything wrong here...if the women consent to the sex and enjoy it, what's the problem?" Likewise if a man consents to paying for an expensive date and enjoys himself, so what if the woman has zero respect for him? So what if she's just using him to get an expensive night out/the opportunity to boast to others about how much money men spend on her?"

If the OP is up front about his intentions with all these women then he is indeed doing no wrong. Where he is coming up short though is in his attitude towards them that he is displaying here. That is where the key problem area lies. His attitude, his use of negative labels - that's poor form by him.

 

As for your scenarios, they are interesting, not quite what I had in mind but interesting nonetheless.

 

If I were reading/posting on a thread where a woman was coming out with comments like that, I'd probably take a swipe or two at her, because I just don't like that attitude. I'm sure some of the other women here who've been criticised for criticising the OP would do likewise. My experience of those posters is that they are very consistent in the personal values they express. So if you're addressing the OP's critics on this thread, rather than his supporters or apologists, I would say that you are preaching to the converted.

I entered this thread to answer the OP's queries. I also entered this thread to dispute the use of the term - double standard. Again, the problem here is the OP's attitude, it is not whether he or men in general support the use of certain double standards or not.

 

On top of that though, I do get what many men here (like Woogle) are saying. There are more than a few grains of truth in what he and those with similar views are saying. However, given the initial premise, given the OP's inflammatory attitude, then this is not the time nor place to air these views.

 

 

.

[A O]

Translation:I don't care what double standards women have to deal with, all I care about are the double standards men have to deal with.

Consistency is my key point here.

 

.

[dispatch3d]

Well, his pof experience sounds like every hot girls experience online. He just goes for the kill. I'm sure there are slutty hot girls out there who sleep with tons of guys. Actually I know at least one girl who was sleeping with 4-5 guys at the same time (sleep at a different guys house every night).

 

I also find it weird he only sees the issues in his own behaviour.

 

also, damn you guys have a temper. 28 pages is crazy.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Consistency is my key point here.

 

Perhaps consistency to how you feel men are mistreated. Which is telling about how much you care (or don't care) about the double standards women get placed under.

 

Both men and women experience double standards. In different social dating issues. When one gender is being discussed in the context of a social issue, as Mr. Dream Merchant presented in his treatment of these women, pointing out all the ways men are wronged shows an ambivalence for women and the issues they face. My issue is not with the issues you as a man feel you face. That's a perfectly worthy discussion. My issue is fighting a discussion about how women are treated with a "so what this is what happens to men" change of subject. You see the distinction yes?

 

Simple fact is you don't give a crap about how women are treated yet you expect women to care how you are treated. Whenever I see these gender topics come up someone is bound to swoop in and say "what about me!". I've seen women do it too. A woman might comes into a tread dedicated to how a man is struggling about the issue she as a woman faces (and vice versa as yo uare doing) and try to limit the importance of his issue because her pain is greater. And your doing the same thing. You're not addressing the topic. You're not even acknowledging that women face double standards too. All you care about is your pain and you want women to care about your pain to when you can't even give that back. You're never going to get anywhere that way.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Bottom line:

 

I take a vocal stand WHENEVER I read a post and it strikes me as championing treating other people like crap.

 

I care NOT whether the post is from a man or a woman, and several women here can attest to that, since I've called them on such posts.

 

I also take a vocal stand WHENEVER I encounter toxic stereotyping here on LS or anywhere else, including face to face conversations. AND, I DO NOT SEE GENDER BASHING AS ANY DIFFERENT THAN BLATANT RACISM. Is it different? How?

 

There is so much "convenient" avoidance of so much on threads such as these.

 

Why are we discussing how it's fine that the OP and his sexual partners are both enjoying NSA romps together? Has anyone disagreed that this would indeed be fine? Has ANYONE taken a stand here against consensual NSA sex? I don't think so (though there are those who believe it's wrong, and maybe I've missed a post or two).

 

What people are responding to here is the bragging and gloating about how the OP made her feel bad; how he enjoyed the crushed look on her face, her tears, and how he repeatedly calls her and other women who have sex with him names that are tinged with hate like "slut" and "whore."

 

Also, to the overarching idea that any girl who "drops her panties" DESERVES in some way to be treated like garbage.

 

That is absolutely counter to the idea that two people can, indeed, decide to have fun sex with one another and that it could be fine.

 

It is promoting the idea that sex is a power game where one person is the "winner" and one person is the "loser."

 

Indeed, very similar to a hypothetical situation (which happens) where a woman "lures" some man, using her sexual attributes, into buying her stuff and being at her beck and call - and then comes here to LS to brag about how great it was to manipulate him like that, and how empowering it was to see his expression when she laughed in his face after receiving his gifts.

 

Wich, by the way, NEVER happens here to my knowledge with the exception of threads by 2 members known by the initials of "MD" and "NWM," and whom I suspect are trolls invented for the sole purpose of "proving" that "women are like that."

 

Indeed, there ARE women like that, and if they came here and bragged about it, I would try my best to show them the error of their ways. And not nicely, either.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Perhaps consistency to how you feel men are mistreated. Which is telling about how much you care (or don't care) about the double standards women get placed under.

 

 

 

 

Simple fact is you don't give a crap about how women are treated yet you expect women to care how you are treated. Whenever I see these gender topics come up someone is bound to swoop in and say "what about me!".

 

Very well said, and so was the rest of your post.

 

It's disheartening how deeply ingrained - to the point where the people can't even perceive its presence - really hateful sexism and double standards are within some of us.

 

Note, even, how threads such as these predictably progress quickly to the point where women who are perceived as "feminists" (why is that "bad" anyway?) start to be insulted with stuff like being called "fat," "old," "crusty," etc.

 

Another nice example of what I'm talking about.

 

Why is a female person who disagrees with a man on a sensitive (to the ego) issue suddenly labeled physically unattractive? What could that possibly have to do with anything? Why would it be "bad" if I were indeed old, fat or "crusty"? Is a man who disagrees with other men labeled thus?

 

I frequently state on LS how my life is full of relationships with diverse people - including a lot of men - of many age groups. I really do have a wonderful fiance (we're getting married in 4 days!) and we actually do ENJOY and CHOOSE to fulfill traditionally "masculine" and "feminine" roles within our relationship (with some big and notable exceptions).

 

I am not reiterating this to brag or gloat. I want it to be known that there are entire communities where this kind of hateful attitude is NOT nurtured in any gender. I am sure that many of us come up against it, even within ourselves, from time to time - and that a CONSCIOUS person who wants the best for themselves, their fellow humans, and the future generations of MEN and WOMEN will CHALLENGE this attitude rather than embrace it.

[Woggle]

You better be careful making such general man-hating statements on this board. Next thing you know, you'll have Mme Chaucer and the rest of the sisterhood on your case telling you what an awful, sexist person you are and comparing you to a clansman...On second thought, no you won't.

 

I am curious about that. It is pretty obvious she said something misandrist so is that just as wrong as when men want to put all women in a box? Either wrong is wrong or it is not.

[A O]

Perhaps consistency to how you feel men are mistreated. Which is telling about how much you care (or don't care) about the double standards women get placed under.

This thread is about the behavior of one person – the OP. It is not about the mistreatment of men or women. Neither is it about double standards. This is all about the poor behavior of one individual. And his behavior has brought into question the usual array of gender concerns. I am addressing one of these concerns just like how some women have addressed the many concerns brought about by some men here. This is where we’re at.

 

What is interesting is how you choose to see my behavior. It is interesting because how you choose to see my input is in fact similar to how many men choose to see the behavior here of their female counterparts (when addressing side issues, not so much the OP’s behavior). No one is listening therefore no one must care. On the male side, it is a very unwise move to air concerns within a thread that has clearly and understandably affronted women. This huge slap in the face has built up so much resentment, again understandably so, that there’s little chance that they are going to be able to put these feelings aside to bother listening to any other male concerns right now. It’s a rather futile exercise.

 

However, if women have concerns about male behavior brought about by the OP’s actions, then these concerns can be addressed. And women can redress these on top of that and so forth. However, the polarizing feelings the OP has engendered and are now being directed towards myself, they are as misplaced towards me as the grievances that some men have chosen to raise are within the context of this thread.

 

 

.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Very well said, and so was the rest of your post.

 

Thanks MMme. Chaucer

 

Note, even, how threads such as these predictably progress quickly to the point where women who are perceived as "feminists" (why is that "bad" anyway?) start to be insulted with stuff like being called "fat," "old," "crusty," etc.

 

Yes, I have also noticed this thread to put down women as "feminists" or "old" or "fat".

 

Why is a female person who disagrees with a man on a sensitive (to the ego) issue suddenly labeled physically unattractive? What could that possibly have to do with anything? Why would it be "bad" if I were indeed old, fat or "crusty"? Is a man who disagrees with other men labeled thus?

 

Great example. Apparently for the people that reduce an argument to that, that's all a woman is worth to them. Through their looks. But of course, men are of much greater value so their looks don't matter. That's the general idea if you ask me.

 

I frequently state on LS how my life is full of relationships with diverse people - including a lot of men - of many age groups. I really do have a wonderful fiance (we're getting married in 4 days!) and we actually do ENJOY and CHOOSE to fulfill traditionally "masculine" and "feminine" roles within our relationship (with some big and notable exceptions).

 

Congrats on the wedding! how exciting.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

This thread is about the behavior of one person – the OP. It is not about the mistreatment of men or women. Neither is it about double standards. This is all about the poor behavior of one individual. And his behavior has brought into question the usual array of gender concerns. I am addressing one of these concerns just like how some women have addressed the many concerns brought about by some men here. This is where we’re at.

 

If you didn't think this was about the mistretment of men or women or double standards why did you bring up a double standard some men feel they experience in regards to the whole who pays issues. Earlier you said:

 

"OK, if you want to talk about double standards, if you really want to make this all about gender - then looks talk about the 'paying for dates' double standard. You know, the one where men are often harshly judged for not meeting the criteria some women have regarding how much men should pay towards them on a date. You know, the one where men are called cheapskates and many other colourful names. "

 

So I repeat. You are not interested in double standards women face. You are only intersted in the double standards men face. The names men are called. The standards men are sometimes expected to live up to. Again, this IS a worthy discussion. But not when it's used to subterfuge the true conversation. You're piggy backing issues men face on a thread about a man who doesn't treat women very nicely.

 

If we want each other to look at the areas we both individually struggle in, it requires us to look at these areas seperately instead of saying things like "OK, if you want to talk about double standards, if you really want to make this all about gender - then looks talk about the 'paying for dates' double standard. You know, the one where men". Because all this points to is "what about me!", "what about men!".

 

What is interesting is how you choose to see my behavior.

 

It's just that I see it so much. With men AND women. Who both use their pain as a way to subterfuge the pain of the other gender when it's the given topic.

 

No one is listening therefore no one must care. On the male side, it is a very unwise move to air concerns within a thread that has clearly and understandably affronted women. This huge slap in the face has built up so much resentment, again understandably so, that there’s little chance that they are going to be able to put these feelings aside to bother listening to any other male concerns right now. It’s a rather futile exercise.

 

You are totally onto something. And I agree with everything you said in this qoute until "it's a rather futile exercise". It doesn't have to be. If one gender can put aside their own hurt for a moment in a thread dedicated to an issue the other gender faces, and listen, add their input on that direct situation or a host of other things, then we can learn to manage our own feelings better and think about the way the other gender deals with the world. And this could only promote more discussion and understanding and hopefully less anger and bitterness between each other.

 

However, if women have concerns about male behavior brought about by the OP’s actions, then these concerns can be addressed. And women can redress these on top of that and so forth. However, the polarizing feelings the OP has engendered and are now being directed towards myself, they are as misplaced towards me as the grievances that some men have chosen to raise are within the context of this thread.

 

I'm not sure I fully understand what your saying here AO. I get that man have grievances with women. I get that men feel hurt and get hurt by crappy things women do. But if we can only talk about male or female hurt in the context of "well that might be what happened to *you*, but this is what happened to *me* and it's why I am angry", we aren't going to get anywhere.

[A O]

If you didn't think this was about the mistretment of men or women or double standards why did you bring up a double standard some men feel they experience in regards to the whole who pays issues.

The double standard issue was raised by a female poster, brought about by the OP’s behavior. To me, it’s not the issue, and expressed these sentiments to her at the time. But to her, it still was an issue so I simply carried on with her train of thought. I was simply addressing her issue within the context of that argument. This differs greatly from the weenie whiney ‘what about me’ or the selfish ‘I only care about my gender’ routines that you seem to think my actions are based on.

 

If men have concerns, then they are unwise to raise them here. If women have concerns, brought about by the OP’s behavior, then those concerns can be addressed. This is where I came in.

 

As for the mistreatment of men, within this thread, I don’t care. That is your take on my behavior. As for the mistreatment of women, it is highly debatable as to whether the OP is mistreating women. What is not debatable, what is crystal clear, is the OP’s poor attitude towards them.

 

And I agree with everything you said in this qoute until "it's a rather futile exercise". It doesn't have to be.

It’s a futile exercise to air grievances in inflammatory threads like this. Even moreso if those doing the airing aren’t actually the one’s being aggrieved. There is a time and a place for such issues, this isn’t one of them.

 

 

.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feelsgoodman

You better be careful making such general man-hating statements on this board. Next thing you know, you'll have Mme Chaucer and the rest of the sisterhood on your case telling you what an awful, sexist person you are and comparing you to a clansman...On second thought, no you won't.

 

I am curious about that. It is pretty obvious she said something misandrist so is that just as wrong as when men want to put all women in a box? Either wrong is wrong or it is not.

 

Actually, I was not crazy about what Woman In Blue wrote, BUT she did preface it with clearly stating that she was stating HER OPINION, and not making a blanket statement about men as if it were an accepted fact:

 

I despise most men and find them to be pigs, and I don't hide my disdain for them here on LS.

 

Woggle, Woman in Blue is probably kind of like you, yourself, are. I believe she is a woman who has been seriously harmed by men in her life and now "hates" men because of that.

 

In contrast to the true MISOGYNISTS who love to spew their hatred far and wide. These guys, in my opinion, are just furious that women have for the past few decades emerged from the roles where such men prefer them to be conveniently stashed: in the kitchen, in the bedroom, in low paying jobs, and certainly NOT competing for jobs they might want, for scholarships formerly only reserved for men, and for places in institutions of higher education. Etc. They cannot tolerate the idea that they could conceivably buy a meal or a soda for a woman and not receive sex in return, or that women they know and maybe even have dated are ENJOYING sexual lives ... with other men. I believe these guys are feeling disenfranchised. There were mountains of "perks" that men (most especially white ones) have been traditionally "entitled" to simply because they were born male. Those days are over, and some guys (in my opinion, guys who are failing to compete successfully) are wanting to make women pay for it.

 

 

Anyway, back to the post you're questioning: If she popped up with a fraction of the number of posts as you do, Woggle, about crap done by men to women

 

(and it's easy to find - I just spent one minute on Google and offer you this fine collection of images:

) I would call her on "wallowing" in her hate, spreading it, and looking for reasons to hold onto it, just like I do with you.

 

No woman came along to "high five" her regarding her stance.

 

I might want to discuss her low opinion of men with her sometime, but this thread is about Mr. Wet Dream Merchant and his opinion about women, so it's not the place.

 

Finally, she also shares her low opinion of the behavior OP boasts about with women, too:

 

But if it were a woman bragging about hitting everything in sight, I'd be equally disgusted with her, as well.

[Feelsgoodman]

I am curious about that. It is pretty obvious she said something misandrist so is that just as wrong as when men want to put all women in a box? Either wrong is wrong or it is not.

Her protestations aside, it is clear that MC is just a man hater like many other women on this board. She seems to find misogyny everywhere, but I'm yet to see her criticize a female poster. It's all so transparent.

[Feelsgoodman]

Why is a female person who disagrees with a man on a sensitive (to the ego) issue suddenly labeled physically unattractive?

Why is every male person who disagrees with a woman on a sensitive (to the ego) issues suddenly labeled a clansman?

[Mme. Chaucer]

Her protestations aside, it is clear that MC is just a man hater like many other women on this board. She seems to find misogyny everywhere, but I'm yet to see her criticize a female poster. It's all so transparent.

 

Obviously, you don't read my posts. What a surprise.

 

Why is every male person who disagrees with a woman on a sensitive (to the ego) issues suddenly labeled a clansman?

 

I didn't label anyone a "clansman." Here is what I posted in response to Woggle:

 

Originally Posted by Woggle

 

 

I don't want to be aligned with these people but at the end of the day they would have my back much more than the people telling me I need to change.

 

Me:

 

That's probably what the guys in the KKK say about their fellow Klansmen.

 

To clarify my point for you:

 

I'm drawing a parallel between men who disparage the entire female gender and white people who disparage members of other races.

 

Further, I am drawing a parallel between misogynistic men who bolster other men in women-hating and bigots who band together and support other bigots, such as what goes on in white supremacist organizations such as the KKK.

 

Discourse with you is a waste of time, probably for anyone.

[Chicago_Guy]

How am I using and hurting them? They enjoy it, and they do it willingly. I don't even give a **** about that honestly. I just want to know why I get cold on them after we have sex.

 

I don't believe that your story is true. However, in the unlikely event that it is true, you obviously get cold because of how slutty those women are and you realize that a woman who is that slutty with you has almost certainly done similar things to lots of guys before you and that is not what most non-desperate guys are looking for.

[Woggle]

Her protestations aside, it is clear that MC is just a man hater like many other women on this board. She seems to find misogyny everywhere, but I'm yet to see her criticize a female poster. It's all so transparent.

 

I truly don't think she is a manhater but in my life I have run into the attitude the other poster has. I have never in my life abused or even cheated on a woman yet when I was abused, betrayed and cheated on I was told I deserve it because it is my just desserts as a man. Sometimes I feel that if they hate me why not hate them right back? The sad thing is I used to be pro-feminist but why would any support something that hates him? Why would anybody support something like that?

 

I figure sometimes if I am the enemy no matter what then why even bother trying to make peace with women?

[Feelsgoodman]

To clarify my point for you:

 

I'm drawing a parallel between men who disparage the entire female gender and white people who disparage members of other races.

 

Further, I am drawing a parallel between misogynistic men who bolster other men in women-hating and bigots who band together and support other bigots, such as what goes on in white supremacist organizations such as the KKK.

 

Discourse with you is a waste of time, probably for anyone.

No, what you are really doing is trying to slander people who have a different opinion by comparing them to unpopular groups such as racists and clansmen. It's a pretty cheap (and ineffectual) way of trying to strengthen your argument...except their is nothing to strengthen, as you didn't have one to begin with.

 

Can you point out even a single post made by you on this board that is critical of another female posters misandrist attitude/behaviour? You can claim to be fair and unbiased all you want, but the record does not reflect that.

[Tayla]

I don't believe that your story is true. However, in the unlikely event that it is true, you obviously get cold because of how slutty those women are and you realize that a woman who is that slutty with you has almost certainly done similar things to lots of guys before you and that is not what most non-desperate guys are looking for.

 

Chicago guy, you make a valid observation. The op's opinions of these "objects" of satisfaction are "beneath" his "standards and therefore he grows "cold to them. The irony is...his behavior as an active participant makes him an equal in nature. Which I would say makes him no better then the "object" of his pleasure. HE just doesn't want to see himself in such a low standard so he distances himself so as to avoid the reality.

 

I detect three things about the OPS" story:

A: HE may well be Delusional

B: He may well be a sex addict

C: He objectifies his tryst and therefore cannot form an intimate relationship .

D: Also he is fairly imaginative in his story line, I see a future for him in an adult bookstore.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I truly don't think she is a manhater but

 

Woggle, you KNOW I am a lover, not a hater, all the way around!

 

All joking aside, I am really committed to my stance on how much our society NEEDS to move away from the polarization, and to approach the "other side" of all differences and issues so that we can get this mess to a better place.

 

If I could have my wishes come true, all people would police themselves with regards to sexism, racism, and bigotry of all kinds.

 

I realize that all of us have biases and sometimes we aren't even aware of them, since they are so ingrained. They can be a part of our very being.

 

Anyway, I do wish that people could and would look at themselves when issues of "us" vs "them" come up.

 

It's a real hot button for me, as evidenced here. Along with the other hot button that got activated on this thread bigtime - the one about "celebrating" treating other people badly.

 

Peace, Woggle.

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

D: Also he is fairly imaginative in his story line, I see a future for him in an adult bookstore.

 

Yes, and he does claim to have "literary gifts." I think that means that he's had a letter published in Penthouse Forum. Or something.

[Woggle]

Woggle, you KNOW I am a lover, not a hater, all the way around!

 

All joking aside, I am really committed to my stance on how much our society NEEDS to move away from the polarization, and to approach the "other side" of all differences and issues so that we can get this mess to a better place.

 

If I could have my wishes come true, all people would police themselves with regards to sexism, racism, and bigotry of all kinds.

 

I realize that all of us have biases and sometimes we aren't even aware of them, since they are so ingrained. They can be a part of our very being.

 

Anyway, I do wish that people could and would look at themselves when issues of "us" vs "them" come up.

 

It's a real hot button for me, as evidenced here. Along with the other hot button that got activated on this thread bigtime - the one about "celebrating" treating other people badly.

 

Peace, Woggle.

 

I wish for a better world as well but man haters add to the polarization just as much as men who hate women do. I think what some just want to hear from a woman is that they believe the stance that innocent men deserve to hurt is some revenge is wrong.

 

When I hear statements like that I almost instinctively go into an us vs them stance. All together though I really do wish for this stupid gender war to end. Nobody seems to actually be winning from it.

[Woggle]

Also I just sort of skimmed through the actual first post and if he looks down on these women or looks at it as punishing them it is dead wrong. I just don't think that a woman or men for that matter who willingly engages in casual sex is a victim when they find out it isn't quite what they imagined. Many people are not built for that kind of life.

 

The way he talks about them though is dead wrong.